Re: Ibuprofen attn Barb Peck

[Guest guest]

a:

It's actaually too complicated for me to explain simply.

Ibuprofen is a chiral drug- in that theres aysemetry in it's

molecular structure- so one half of it goes on to do what we all know

it does (inhibit 1, 2 and possibly 3,) but then it's got this

mirroe image molecule (which can't dock in the same sites) so that

goes on to do 'other things' i.e. bind with or complex 'other things'.

It's the 'other things' we don't know that much about- and some of

those reactions can be very beneficial- but those characteristic of

the drug may also be exactly why some people can't use the drug at

all.

HCQ is a chiral drug also - and probably for those same reasons some

can take it with excellent effects and others can't take it at all.

I'm tellin yah.. drug chemistry gets more and more complicated the

more I learn about it.. But I'm compelled to keep studying it- as I

want to make sure I take the right drugs- with the biggestest impact

on my bugs when I do take them.

Barb

> > > You would probably do quite well with the eradication

> of

> > your slime

> > > forming organisms by complementing antibiotic therapy with oral

> > > fibrinolytic enzymes such as serrapeptase, nattokinase or

> > lumbrokinase.

> > >

> > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> > >

> >

>

itool=abstractplus & db=pubmed & cmd=Retrieve & dopt=abstractplus & list_uids=

> > 1

> > > 6757752

> > >

> > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> > >

> >

>

db=pubmed & cmd=Retrieve & dopt=AbstractPlus & list_uids=7001087 & itool=icona

> > b

> > > str & query_hl=1 & itool=pubmed_DocSum

> > >

> > > And for good measure, toss in some curcumin and cyanne pepper

to

> > block

> > > the NFKB activated cytokines and some of you folks might even

> start

> > to

> > > feel pretty good after a while.

> > >

> > > Tom Brown

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Barb,

I read something about this only a few days ago, I can't remember where it was.

Is this related to the way amino-acids are always called L-something (for Left-) as opposed to the undesirable version which would be R-smthng (for Right-smthng)?

>It's the 'other things' we don't know that much about- and some of >those reactions can be very beneficial- but those characteristic of >the drug may also be exactly why some people can't use the drug at >all.

How can you tell if you can use a drug like HCQ or Ibuprofen and benefit from it or whether you are being "attacked" by the "Mr Hyde" side of the chiral drug?

I seem to:

a) not get any relief of inflammation from Ibuprofen or other NSAIDS except aspirin

I become really REALLY tired (almost catatonic) after a few weeks on HCQ (+ a macrolide and/or a cycline)

No idea if it has any relevance at all

Barb, of course you are right to investigate things the way you do, you are an inspiration to many of us. I just wish i could get my sh-ts tgthr enough to research things in a more systematic way. I just seem to go all over the place, it is so frustrating.

Nelly

[infections] Re: Ibuprofen attn Barb Peck

a:It's actaually too complicated for me to explain simply. Ibuprofen is a chiral drug- in that theres aysemetry in it's molecular structure- so one half of it goes on to do what we all know it does (inhibit 1, 2 and possibly 3,) but then it's got this mirroe image molecule (which can't dock in the same sites) so that goes on to do 'other things' i.e. bind with or complex 'other things'.It's the 'other things' we don't know that much about- and some of those reactions can be very beneficial- but those characteristic of the drug may also be exactly why some people can't use the drug at all.HCQ is a chiral drug also - and probably for those same reasons some can take it with excellent effects and others can't take it at all.I'm tellin yah.. drug chemistry gets more and more complicated the more I learn about it.. But I'm compelled to keep studying it- as I want to make sure I take the right drugs- with the biggestest impact on my bugs when I do take them.Barb> > > You would probably do quite well with the eradication > of > > your slime > > > forming organisms by complementing antibiotic therapy with oral > > > fibrinolytic enzymes such as serrapeptase, nattokinase or > > lumbrokinase.> > > > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?> > > > > > itool=abstractplus & db=pubmed & cmd=Retrieve & dopt=abstractplus & list_uids=> > 1> > > 6757752> > > > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?> > > > > > db=pubmed & cmd=Retrieve & dopt=AbstractPlus & list_uids=7001087 & itool=icona> > b> > > str & query_hl=1 & itool=pubmed_DocSum> > > > > > And for good measure, toss in some curcumin and cyanne pepper to > > block > > > the NFKB activated cytokines and some of you folks might even > start > > to > > > feel pretty good after a while.> > > > > > Tom Brown> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

HCQ is a quinolone. Needless to say I wouldn't take any given my

history. So are we looking at ibuprofen causing the same damage as a

quinolone? This has not been the case for me. I used to take 800 mg a

day for several years with no problem.

Preventing irrecoverable visual lossin CQ and HCQ therapy48otMarch

10, 2000 OTFrederick G. Brown FBOA, HD, FSMC

" Optometrists may encounter patients treated with either chloroquine

(CQ) or hydroxychloroquine(HCQ). These drugs are quinolones, and have

been known to cause irreversible retinal toxicity. "

a C.

>

> Barb,

>

> I read something about this only a few days ago, I can't remember

where it was.

>

> Is this related to the way amino-acids are always called L-

something (for Left-) as opposed to the undesirable version which

would be R-smthng (for Right-smthng)?

>

> >It's the 'other things' we don't know that much about- and some of

> >those reactions can be very beneficial- but those characteristic

of

> >the drug may also be exactly why some people can't use the drug at

> >all.

>

> How can you tell if you can use a drug like HCQ or Ibuprofen and

benefit from it or whether you are being " attacked " by the " Mr Hyde "

side of the chiral drug?

>

> I seem to:

> a) not get any relief of inflammation from Ibuprofen or other

NSAIDS except aspirin

> I become really REALLY tired (almost catatonic) after a few

weeks on HCQ (+ a macrolide and/or a cycline)

>

> No idea if it has any relevance at all

>

> Barb, of course you are right to investigate things the way you do,

you are an inspiration to many of us. I just wish i could get my sh-

ts tgthr enough to research things in a more systematic way. I just

seem to go all over the place, it is so frustrating.

>

> Nelly

>

>

> [infections] Re: Ibuprofen attn Barb Peck

>

>

> a:

>

> It's actaually too complicated for me to explain simply.

>

> Ibuprofen is a chiral drug- in that theres aysemetry in it's

> molecular structure- so one half of it goes on to do what we all

know

> it does (inhibit 1, 2 and possibly 3,) but then it's got this

> mirroe image molecule (which can't dock in the same sites) so

that

> goes on to do 'other things' i.e. bind with or complex 'other

things'.

>

> It's the 'other things' we don't know that much about- and some

of

> those reactions can be very beneficial- but those characteristic

of

> the drug may also be exactly why some people can't use the drug

at

> all.

>

> HCQ is a chiral drug also - and probably for those same reasons

some

> can take it with excellent effects and others can't take it at

all.

>

> I'm tellin yah.. drug chemistry gets more and more complicated

the

> more I learn about it.. But I'm compelled to keep studying it- as

I

> want to make sure I take the right drugs- with the biggestest

impact

> on my bugs when I do take them.

>

> Barb

>

>

> > > > You would probably do quite well with the eradication

> > of

> > > your slime

> > > > forming organisms by complementing antibiotic therapy with

oral

> > > > fibrinolytic enzymes such as serrapeptase, nattokinase or

> > > lumbrokinase.

> > > >

> > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

itool=abstractplus & db=pubmed & cmd=Retrieve & dopt=abstractplus & list_uids=

> > > 1

> > > > 6757752

> > > >

> > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

db=pubmed & cmd=Retrieve & dopt=AbstractPlus & list_uids=7001087 & itool=icona

> > > b

> > > > str & query_hl=1 & itool=pubmed_DocSum

> > > >

> > > > And for good measure, toss in some curcumin and cyanne

pepper

> to

> > > block

> > > > the NFKB activated cytokines and some of you folks might

even

> > start

> > > to

> > > > feel pretty good after a while.

> > > >

> > > > Tom Brown

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I visited a very well respected opthamologist and he said that in 20+ years of testing patients who take HCQ, he'd never seen anyone experience eye damage from it. He said the studies that people always refer to were done decades ago and they were using huge amounts of the drug. Of course he still does all the baseline and necessary testing for people who take HCQ but he felt the possibility of eye damage was miniscule at best. It's also interesting that I've talked to some RA patients who say they could barely walk before starting HCQ. Taking it regularly has actually given them their lives back. This is one of the more common applications for HCQ at this point. I've taken it on occasion, but I have to take it with food, or it upsets my stomach rather badly. I have a hard time being consistent with drugs that I have to remember to take with food, so I have never taken it for very

long. But I do think it may have reduced my pain levels a bit in the time that I did take it. penny pjeanneus <pj7@...> wrote: HCQ is a quinolone. Needless to say I wouldn't take any given my history. So are we looking at ibuprofen causing the same damage as a quinolone? This has not been the case for me. I used to take 800 mg a day for several years with no problem.Preventing irrecoverable visual lossin CQ and HCQ therapy48otMarch

10, 2000 OTFrederick G. Brown FBOA, HD, FSMC"Optometrists may encounter patients treated with either chloroquine (CQ) or hydroxychloroquine(HCQ). These drugs are quinolones, and have been known to cause irreversible retinal toxicity."a C. >> Barb,> > I read something about this only a few days ago, I can't remember where it was.> > Is this related to the way amino-acids are always called L-something (for Left-) as opposed to the undesirable version which would be R-smthng (for Right-smthng)?> > >It's the 'other things' we don't know that much about- and some of > >those reactions can be very beneficial- but those characteristic of > >the drug may also be exactly why some people can't use the drug at > >all. > > How can you tell if you can use a drug like HCQ or Ibuprofen and benefit from it or whether you

are being "attacked" by the "Mr Hyde" side of the chiral drug?> > I seem to: > a) not get any relief of inflammation from Ibuprofen or other NSAIDS except aspirin> I become really REALLY tired (almost catatonic) after a few weeks on HCQ (+ a macrolide and/or a cycline)> > No idea if it has any relevance at all> > Barb, of course you are right to investigate things the way you do, you are an inspiration to many of us. I just wish i could get my sh-ts tgthr enough to research things in a more systematic way. I just seem to go all over the place, it is so frustrating.> > Nelly> > > [infections]

Re: Ibuprofen attn Barb Peck> > > a:> > It's actaually too complicated for me to explain simply. > > Ibuprofen is a chiral drug- in that theres aysemetry in it's > molecular structure- so one half of it goes on to do what we all know > it does (inhibit 1, 2 and possibly 3,) but then it's got this > mirroe image molecule (which can't dock in the same sites) so that > goes on to do 'other things' i.e. bind with or complex 'other things'.> > It's the 'other things' we don't know that much about- and some of > those reactions can be very beneficial- but those characteristic of > the drug may also be exactly why some people can't use the drug at > all.> > HCQ is a chiral drug also - and probably for those same reasons some > can take it with excellent effects and others can't take it at all.> >

I'm tellin yah.. drug chemistry gets more and more complicated the > more I learn about it.. But I'm compelled to keep studying it- as I > want to make sure I take the right drugs- with the biggestest impact > on my bugs when I do take them.> > Barb> > > > > > You would probably do quite well with the eradication > > of > > > your slime > > > > forming organisms by complementing antibiotic therapy with oral > > > > fibrinolytic enzymes such as serrapeptase, nattokinase or > > > lumbrokinase.> > > > >

> > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?> > > > > > > > > > itool=abstractplus & db=pubmed & cmd=Retrieve & dopt=abstractplus & list_uids=> > > 1> > > > 6757752> > > > > > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?> > > > > > > > > > db=pubmed & cmd=Retrieve & dopt=AbstractPlus & list_uids=7001087 & itool=icona> > > b> > > > str & query_hl=1 & itool=pubmed_DocSum> > > > > > > > And for good measure, toss in some curcumin and cyanne pepper > to > > > block > > > >

the NFKB activated cytokines and some of you folks might even > > start > > > to > > > > feel pretty good after a while.> > > > > > > > Tom Brown> > > >> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

> Barb,

>

> I read something about this only a few days ago, I can't remember

where it was.

>

> Is this related to the way amino-acids are always called L-

something (for Left-) as opposed to the undesirable version which

would be R-smthng (for Right-smthng)?

It's usually D- and L- (dextro- and levo-). The ribosome-assembled

peptides/proteins (ie almost all proteins) of earthly organisms use

only levo-amino acids. But some of the amino acids you can buy are

mixed (like D-, L-phenylalanine). Synthetic production yields a mix

of the two enantiomers (termed racemic), and it can be laborious to

separate them.

I think there may be some special molecules that involve D-amino

acids. Can't remember. If so, they are assembled by enzymes, not the

ribosome. (For example, cyclopeptides like the polymyxin antibiotics

are pure peptides, but are assembled by enzymes.)

Enantiomers (the two versions of a chiral molecule) are just like

left and right shoes... each others' mirror images.

[Guest guest]

Yes, that's what I meant (but got it wrong ), thanks

Do you know if it relates to chiral drugs?

Nelly

[infections] Re: Ibuprofen attn Barb Peck

> Barb,> > I read something about this only a few days ago, I can't remember where it was.> > Is this related to the way amino-acids are always called L-something (for Left-) as opposed to the undesirable version which would be R-smthng (for Right-smthng)?It's usually D- and L- (dextro- and levo-). The ribosome-assembled peptides/proteins (ie almost all proteins) of earthly organisms use only levo-amino acids. But some of the amino acids you can buy are mixed (like D-, L-phenylalanine). Synthetic production yields a mix of the two enantiomers (termed racemic), and it can be laborious to separate them.I think there may be some special molecules that involve D-amino acids. Can't remember. If so, they are assembled by enzymes, not the ribosome. (For example, cyclopeptides like the polymyxin antibiotics are pure peptides, but are assembled by enzymes.)Enantiomers (the two versions of a chiral molecule) are just like left and right shoes... each others' mirror images.

[Guest guest]

Nelly:

You may have read something about the chiral properties of some

drugs, because the drug companies are just now starting to

investigate the 'Mr. Hyde " properties (I love that analogy) as

possible being very beneficial - instead of what they previously

thought - which was just a wasted molecule (It never ceases to amaze

me how smart researchers can think thigs are wasted in the body - or

just do nothing).

Yes- chiral means changing (form) so yes the (L) ® properties of

stuff like Alpha-lipoic acid sometimes is touted for sale being only

the " R " form thinking the " L " is wasted.. so you get charged more $$

for the R form.. and who the heck knew -probably the R/L form was

better all along. Researchers don't always make the correct

decisions either...

In any case- yes - it's possible the the chirality is exactly why

Ibuprofen and HCQ works so spectaularily for me- and like crap for

you (differences in our genetics). If the drug companies start

manipulating these molecules- then they may make HCQ available as a

non-chiral drug - then maybe it'll work mediocre for the both of us..

who knows?

All I knw is that on the whole.. I think I am more cautious about

drugs in general- but probably also more willing to try combos, I

think may work for me.

It's in my nature to want to know how things work..

And I love Chemistry.

Barb

> > > > You would probably do quite well with the eradication

> > of

> > > your slime

> > > > forming organisms by complementing antibiotic therapy with

oral

> > > > fibrinolytic enzymes such as serrapeptase, nattokinase or

> > > lumbrokinase.

> > > >

> > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

itool=abstractplus & db=pubmed & cmd=Retrieve & dopt=abstractplus & list_uids=

> > > 1

> > > > 6757752

> > > >

> > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

db=pubmed & cmd=Retrieve & dopt=AbstractPlus & list_uids=7001087 & itool=icona

> > > b

> > > > str & query_hl=1 & itool=pubmed_DocSum

> > > >

> > > > And for good measure, toss in some curcumin and cyanne

pepper

> to

> > > block

> > > > the NFKB activated cytokines and some of you folks might

even

> > start

> > > to

> > > > feel pretty good after a while.

> > > >

> > > > Tom Brown

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

a:

We're talking about the drugs molecular structure on this

thread..whether it's a symetrical molecule or not- and what that

means... that's difference than the drug CLASS.. which is what you're

talking about.

Barb

> > > > > You would probably do quite well with the eradication

> > > of

> > > > your slime

> > > > > forming organisms by complementing antibiotic therapy

with

> oral

> > > > > fibrinolytic enzymes such as serrapeptase, nattokinase or

> > > > lumbrokinase.

> > > > >

> > > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

itool=abstractplus & db=pubmed & cmd=Retrieve & dopt=abstractplus & list_uids=

> > > > 1

> > > > > 6757752

> > > > >

> > > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

db=pubmed & cmd=Retrieve & dopt=AbstractPlus & list_uids=7001087 & itool=icona

> > > > b

> > > > > str & query_hl=1 & itool=pubmed_DocSum

> > > > >

> > > > > And for good measure, toss in some curcumin and cyanne

> pepper

> > to

> > > > block

> > > > > the NFKB activated cytokines and some of you folks might

> even

> > > start

> > > > to

> > > > > feel pretty good after a while.

> > > > >

> > > > > Tom Brown

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Well.. if you want to get really technical.. HCQ is not a quinolone

it's a quinoline.. and there's a difference- but I can't impress that

on a- I've tried before.

Barb

> > > > > You would probably do quite well with the eradication

> > > of

> > > > your slime

> > > > > forming organisms by complementing antibiotic therapy with

> oral

> > > > > fibrinolytic enzymes such as serrapeptase, nattokinase or

> > > > lumbrokinase.

> > > > >

> > > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

itool=abstractplus & db=pubmed & cmd=Retrieve & dopt=abstractplus & list_uids=

> > > > 1

> > > > > 6757752

> > > > >

> > > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

db=pubmed & cmd=Retrieve & dopt=AbstractPlus & list_uids=7001087 & itool=icona

> > > > b

> > > > > str & query_hl=1 & itool=pubmed_DocSum

> > > > >

> > > > > And for good measure, toss in some curcumin and cyanne

> pepper

> > to

> > > > block

> > > > > the NFKB activated cytokines and some of you folks might

> even

> > > start

> > > > to

> > > > > feel pretty good after a while.

> > > > >

> > > > > Tom Brown

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Barb,

I will readily admit I know little about chemistry. I was asking if

ibuprofen has the same or similar molecular structure to quinolones.

(If I was talking about class of drugs why are they in different

classes if the structure is similar? Ignorance is not bliss.)

The problem I have stated many times is that folks who react to

quinolones also react to quinine water and samento.

So how is ibuprofen related?

Thanks,

a

>

> a:

>

> We're talking about the drugs molecular structure on this

> thread..whether it's a symetrical molecule or not- and what that

> means... that's difference than the drug CLASS.. which is what

you're

> talking about.

>

> Barb

>

>

>

> > > > > > You would probably do quite well with the eradication

> > > > of

> > > > > your slime

> > > > > > forming organisms by complementing antibiotic therapy

> with

> > oral

> > > > > > fibrinolytic enzymes such as serrapeptase, nattokinase

or

> > > > > lumbrokinase.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

itool=abstractplus & db=pubmed & cmd=Retrieve & dopt=abstractplus & list_uids=

> > > > > 1

> > > > > > 6757752

> > > > > >

> > > > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

db=pubmed & cmd=Retrieve & dopt=AbstractPlus & list_uids=7001087 & itool=icona

> > > > > b

> > > > > > str & query_hl=1 & itool=pubmed_DocSum

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And for good measure, toss in some curcumin and cyanne

> > pepper

> > > to

> > > > > block

> > > > > > the NFKB activated cytokines and some of you folks

might

> > even

> > > > start

> > > > > to

> > > > > > feel pretty good after a while.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Tom Brown

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Penny's opthamalogist is obviously screening his patients for risk

factors. Stop picking on me. I never said no one should take a

quinolone or quinoline or samento or drink tonic water, or take

Lariam. I stated that there are major risks. Some of us with cfs or

Lyme have enhanced risk namely, low magnesium levels, obesity, old

age etc. The risk factors look like the disease.

If you check out a drug plus lawsuits on google you will see which

drugs carry greater risk. This is more accurate than the risks

reported to the FDA here is the United States.

And that is all I have to say about that.

a Carnes

>

> Well.. if you want to get really technical.. HCQ is not a quinolone

> it's a quinoline.. and there's a difference- but I can't impress

that

> on a- I've tried before.

> Barb

>

>

> > > > > > You would probably do quite well with the eradication

> > > > of

> > > > > your slime

> > > > > > forming organisms by complementing antibiotic therapy

with

> > oral

> > > > > > fibrinolytic enzymes such as serrapeptase, nattokinase or

> > > > > lumbrokinase.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

itool=abstractplus & db=pubmed & cmd=Retrieve & dopt=abstractplus & list_uids=

> > > > > 1

> > > > > > 6757752

> > > > > >

> > > > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

db=pubmed & cmd=Retrieve & dopt=AbstractPlus & list_uids=7001087 & itool=icona

> > > > > b

> > > > > > str & query_hl=1 & itool=pubmed_DocSum

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And for good measure, toss in some curcumin and cyanne

> > pepper

> > > to

> > > > > block

> > > > > > the NFKB activated cytokines and some of you folks might

> > even

> > > > start

> > > > > to

> > > > > > feel pretty good after a while.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Tom Brown

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

No one's picking on you.

And no we are not looking at Ibuprofen causing the same side effects

as quinolones classes of ABX.

We were talking about the molecular structure of some drugs.

We are all making the point/or tying in information that some drugs

work better on some people than others- and the same goes for side

effects.

But as an aside:

Penny's info is accurate, in that there's years of data on RA

patients taking <499mg per day - and the risk of glaucoma is very low

(although it may be a higher risk at hjigher doses).

Barb

> > > > > > > You would probably do quite well with the eradication

> > > > > of

> > > > > > your slime

> > > > > > > forming organisms by complementing antibiotic therapy

> with

> > > oral

> > > > > > > fibrinolytic enzymes such as serrapeptase, nattokinase

or

> > > > > > lumbrokinase.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

itool=abstractplus & db=pubmed & cmd=Retrieve & dopt=abstractplus & list_uids=

> > > > > > 1

> > > > > > > 6757752

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

db=pubmed & cmd=Retrieve & dopt=AbstractPlus & list_uids=7001087 & itool=icona

> > > > > > b

> > > > > > > str & query_hl=1 & itool=pubmed_DocSum

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > And for good measure, toss in some curcumin and cyanne

> > > pepper

> > > > to

> > > > > > block

> > > > > > > the NFKB activated cytokines and some of you folks

might

> > > even

> > > > > start

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > feel pretty good after a while.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Tom Brown

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

You have to remember, my opthamologist only screens because patients are referred to him based on common standards of practice when it comes to prescribing HCQ. It was my impression that he thinks it's pointless testing, because in 20 plus years not one patient has experienced any eye damage due to HCQ. pennypjeanneus <pj7@...> wrote: Penny's opthamalogist is obviously screening his patients for risk factors. Stop picking on me. I never said no one should take a

quinolone or quinoline or samento or drink tonic water, or take Lariam. I stated that there are major risks. Some of us with cfs or Lyme have enhanced risk namely, low magnesium levels, obesity, old age etc. The risk factors look like the disease. If you check out a drug plus lawsuits on google you will see which drugs carry greater risk. This is more accurate than the risks reported to the FDA here is the United States.And that is all I have to say about that.a Carnes>> Well.. if you want to get really technical.. HCQ is not a quinolone > it's a quinoline.. and there's a difference- but I can't impress that > on a- I've tried before.> Barb> > > > > > > > You would probably do quite well with the eradication > > > > of > > > > > your slime > > > > > > forming organisms by complementing antibiotic therapy with > > oral > > > > > > fibrinolytic enzymes such as serrapeptase, nattokinase or > > > > > lumbrokinase.> > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > itool=abstractplus & db=pubmed & cmd=Retrieve & dopt=abstractplus & list_uids=> > > > >

1> > > > > > 6757752> > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > db=pubmed & cmd=Retrieve & dopt=AbstractPlus & list_uids=7001087 & itool=icona> > > > > b> > > > > > str & query_hl=1 & itool=pubmed_DocSum> > > > > > > > > > > > And for good measure, toss in some curcumin and cyanne > > pepper > > > to > > > > > block > > > > > > the NFKB activated cytokines and some of you folks might > > even > > > > start > > > > > to > > >

> > > feel pretty good after a while.> > > > > > > > > > > > Tom Brown> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

Yes, it's the same concept, whether applied to drugs or amino acids.

An achiral molecule can be superimposed on its mirror image. A chiral

one can't be.

In case you don't feel like building a plastic model of the molecule

and it's mirror image to see if they are the same... just examine all

the tetravalent atoms (ie, atoms which are attached to four other

atoms or atom chains). If, at any tetravalant atom, the four attached

atoms/chains are all different from one another, then the molecule is

chiral, and the tetravalent atom in question is called a chiral

center. If there are 2 chiral centers, you could have 4 enantiomers.

With 3 chiral centers, you could have 8 enantiomers.

Bi and trivalent atoms cannot be chiral centers. Five- and 6-valent

(etc) atoms maybe can (I forget), but don't occour in biological

chem. Also, for all practical purposes the only tetravalent atom in

biology is carbon.

>

> Yes, that's what I meant (but got it wrong ), thanks

>

> Do you know if it relates to chiral drugs?

>

> Nelly

[Guest guest]

Why is D-ribose (the sugar) D then, if we use L things? I have tried

it a couple of times while exercising and I think it might help

muscle recovery, but I'm not sure (maybe I just had a good day).

- Kate

On Jan 31, 2007, at 1:23 AM, wrote:

> It's usually D- and L- (dextro- and levo-). The ribosome-assembled

> peptides/proteins (ie almost all proteins) of earthly organisms use

> only levo-amino acids. But some of the amino acids you can buy are

> mixed (like D-, L-phenylalanine). Synthetic production yields a mix

> of the two enantiomers (termed racemic), and it can be laborious to

> separate them.

>

> I think there may be some special molecules that involve D-amino

> acids. Can't remember. If so, they are assembled by enzymes, not the

> ribosome. (For example, cyclopeptides like the polymyxin antibiotics

> are pure peptides, but are assembled by enzymes.)

[Guest guest]

We use dextro sugars (I guess... I haven't really paid attention to

that much), just not dextro amino acids.

Kate <KateDunlay@...> wrote:

>

> Why is D-ribose (the sugar) D then, if we use L things? I have

tried

> it a couple of times while exercising and I think it might help

> muscle recovery, but I'm not sure (maybe I just had a good day).

>

> - Kate

>

> On Jan 31, 2007, at 1:23 AM, wrote:

> > It's usually D- and L- (dextro- and levo-). The ribosome-assembled

> > peptides/proteins (ie almost all proteins) of earthly organisms

use

> > only levo-amino acids. But some of the amino acids you can buy are

> > mixed (like D-, L-phenylalanine). Synthetic production yields a

mix

> > of the two enantiomers (termed racemic), and it can be laborious

to

> > separate them.

> >

> > I think there may be some special molecules that involve D-amino

> > acids. Can't remember. If so, they are assembled by enzymes, not

the

> > ribosome. (For example, cyclopeptides like the polymyxin

antibiotics

> > are pure peptides, but are assembled by enzymes.)

>