Re: Crohn's remedies

[Guest guest]

That was beautiful, . Now Tony, I hope you don't respond in kind, but actually listen to reason for just a minute. I don't want to be scaring off the Wheldons of our world. He's extremely smart and is doing very good things, and we could benefit from input like his. If you need to rant, just call me. I can listen to you while I'm on the treadmill. Get both our heart rates up. :-) penny <usenethod@...> wrote: Tony you

numbfuck . . . don't you know 'fuckwit' is used by every cheesey lil prep boy in college . . . Now 'soft cock' . . . that's fresh . . . sinister! . . . beautiful . . . Tarantino and Celine could take a page out of your book . . . I'm not sure why you have to use it on a nice retired physicist who spends a million hours researching and educating people even though he's healthy and could be playing golf! . . . I guess antibacterials won't work for anyone unless everyone in the world believes in them . . . like faries and magic . . . that's right I forgot you're way into all those sort of alternative ideas . . . mental energies . . . healing crystals . . . colon cleanses . . . talismans . . . homeopathic rosemary bubble baths . . . spirochetes . . . zeta waves . . . gelcaps . . . fruits and vegetables . . . micronutrients . . . magic underwear . . . anyway I'm sure your silver-tongued advocacy of bacterial pathogenesis

can save many hundreds of lives even without all the heavy and/or sexual swearing . . . I think mommy and daddy forgot to teach you the words "hell" and "damn" . . . Am I right? . . . sometimes the truth hurts but let's be honest . . . Speaking of which . . . I'm sure you could really crush me in any trash talk shootout in about 15 seconds . . . what's more . . . I'm not exactly the biggest kid in the class . . . if you glared at me I'd probably run away . . . or more likely I'd faint . . . so . . . don't make me taunt you a second time . . . I've been through enough severe embarrassments in life god knows . . . Anyway I gave this list's URL to Wheldon one time last year . . . we have people with terminal science degrees on the list . . . it would be nice to have a few more . . . some of them might even be almost as knowledgeable as you . . . we might learn something . . . I think they are used to a more

restrained standard of speech . . . so don't make me get firm on you buddy . . . I will ban your sorry butt in a microsecond . . . I actually tried to yesterday . . . couldn't find the button . . . we all have the special button to ban each other right . . . or is it just Penny . . . oh, crap I think I just banned myself by accident . . . god it stings like a cattle prod . . . help . . . mom . . .

[Guest guest]

> A lot of that post came in the early hours of the morning after a

> big night out.

Booze is no excuse! As if you didn't know that I have never made a

single post to this board without first getting going with a HUGE rip

of ether. I thought that was obvious. Maybe I hide it better than I

thought. What were we talllkking aboutt

thoughawwwdffffffffffffffffffffff? <bonk>

> i ALSO WON'T READ AND QUOTE WHAT SCIENTISTS THINK IS

> THE PROBLEM IN THESE CONDITIONS, BECAUSE I LEARNT A LONG TIME AGO

> HALF THE STUFF YOU READ IS CRAP

In my dreams half of it is crap. That would be nice. But every time the

ether wears off, I once again face the fact that 2/3 of it is crap.

Fortunately that still leaves 7,665,040 good papers to read! Anyone who

doesn't read at least 500 a day is a soft cock in my book.

[Guest guest]

> Dear

> As a card carrying representative of the great Australian unwashed

I would like to reserve the right to repossess from the Toyota

advertisement " bugger " as it has always been in the public domain.

> Regards

> Windsor

What's that, sir? Protest the new policy already will you? Are you

telling me you don't want to hear Tony say " gee willikers " all the

time? Do you realize how great that would be?

Or is this about being unwashed? Well in that case I'll let you

know . . . as a onetime sufferer of severe chronic lazy syndrome with

endogenous psychomotor-affective depression w/ hypomanic features

(the form of depression where you feel really awful, but also, at the

same time, really terrible). . . I have definitely done some serious

unwashedness in my time! It's no joke! Long fingernails? Yes, sir.

Three weeks of scraggle (I'm afraid you can't call it a beard in my

case)? A regular exercise. I can't say I always smelled so wonderful -

or cared! Fortunately . . . all that was many years and three pounds

of flagyl ago . . . when I went back to college, momma gave me a pair

of calipers so I can make sure my sideburns are within 1 millimeter

of perfectly even. That's a common standard for science students, she

said. I also got these thick-rimmed spectacles to make me look

smart . . . even though my vision's 20/20 (there's no lenses in em).

The other students gave me a swirly in the lab bathroom, but I think

my profs were impressed . . . it just so happens that's what matters

to me. . .

Now, I & I . . . it's 10 PM here in Virginia . . . that's three hours

past my usual bedtime of 7 PM. I'm going home . . . I leave you with

this . . . let's all remember to speak becomingly . . . nothing you

wouldn't say to your grandmothers, cause we're taking this list all

the way to squeaky clean . . . that's right . . . and you'll all

thank me when you see how much fun it can be! . . . so let's all

scrub behind our ears . . . twice! . . . it wouldn't hurt to shine

your shoes once in a while . . . always think friendly thoughts about

our fellow men . . . if you can't say something nice don't say

anything at all . . . whistle a smart patriotic ditty while we

work . . . that puts a gleam in your eye . . . stand up

straight . . . stomach in . . . chest out . . . shoulders back . . .

clean your plate at every meal . . . including limas and brussels

sprouts . . . stick to wholesome entertainments . . . none of those

libertine Disney movies, thank you . . . do a good turn daily for

another person, it'll make you feel good . . . and stop making that

face at me, one day your face will freeze like that . . .

[Guest guest]

Well, at least now I have hope that I'll die laughing. penny <usenethod@...> wrote: > Dear > As a card carrying representative of the great Australian unwashed I would like to reserve the right to repossess from the Toyota advertisement "bugger" as it has always been in the public domain.> Regards> WindsorWhat's that, sir? Protest the new policy already will you? Are you telling me you don't want to hear Tony

say "gee willikers" all the time? Do you realize how great that would be?Or is this about being unwashed? Well in that case I'll let you know . . . as a onetime sufferer of severe chronic lazy syndrome with endogenous psychomotor-affective depression w/ hypomanic features (the form of depression where you feel really awful, but also, at the same time, really terrible). . . I have definitely done some serious unwashedness in my time! It's no joke! Long fingernails? Yes, sir. Three weeks of scraggle (I'm afraid you can't call it a beard in my case)? A regular exercise. I can't say I always smelled so wonderful -or cared! Fortunately . . . all that was many years and three pounds of flagyl ago . . . when I went back to college, momma gave me a pair of calipers so I can make sure my sideburns are within 1 millimeter of perfectly even. That's a common standard for science students, she said. I also got these

thick-rimmed spectacles to make me look smart . . . even though my vision's 20/20 (there's no lenses in em). The other students gave me a swirly in the lab bathroom, but I think my profs were impressed . . . it just so happens that's what matters to me. . . Now, I & I . . . it's 10 PM here in Virginia . . . that's three hours past my usual bedtime of 7 PM. I'm going home . . . I leave you with this . . . let's all remember to speak becomingly . . . nothing you wouldn't say to your grandmothers, cause we're taking this list all the way to squeaky clean . . . that's right . . . and you'll all thank me when you see how much fun it can be! . . . so let's all scrub behind our ears . . . twice! . . . it wouldn't hurt to shine your shoes once in a while . . . always think friendly thoughts about our fellow men . . . if you can't say something nice don't say anything at all . . . whistle a smart patriotic ditty while we

work . . . that puts a gleam in your eye . . . stand up straight . . . stomach in . . . chest out . . . shoulders back . . . clean your plate at every meal . . . including limas and brussels sprouts . . . stick to wholesome entertainments . . . none of those libertine Disney movies, thank you . . . do a good turn daily for another person, it'll make you feel good . . . and stop making that face at me, one day your face will freeze like that . . .

[Guest guest]

Am I alowed to use the term sheep shagger if I don't like something

someone posted. It's a new zealand term.

>

>

> > Dear

> > As a card carrying representative of the great Australian

unwashed

> I would like to reserve the right to repossess from the Toyota

> advertisement " bugger " as it has always been in the public domain.

> > Regards

> > Windsor

>

> What's that, sir? Protest the new policy already will you? Are you

> telling me you don't want to hear Tony say " gee willikers " all the

> time? Do you realize how great that would be?

>

> Or is this about being unwashed? Well in that case I'll let you

> know . . . as a onetime sufferer of severe chronic lazy syndrome

with

> endogenous psychomotor-affective depression w/ hypomanic features

> (the form of depression where you feel really awful, but also, at

the

> same time, really terrible). . . I have definitely done some

serious

> unwashedness in my time! It's no joke! Long fingernails? Yes, sir.

> Three weeks of scraggle (I'm afraid you can't call it a beard in my

> case)? A regular exercise. I can't say I always smelled so

wonderful -

> or cared! Fortunately . . . all that was many years and three

pounds

> of flagyl ago . . . when I went back to college, momma gave me a

pair

> of calipers so I can make sure my sideburns are within 1 millimeter

> of perfectly even. That's a common standard for science students,

she

> said. I also got these thick-rimmed spectacles to make me look

> smart . . . even though my vision's 20/20 (there's no lenses in

em).

> The other students gave me a swirly in the lab bathroom, but I

think

> my profs were impressed . . . it just so happens that's what

matters

> to me. . .

>

> Now, I & I . . . it's 10 PM here in Virginia . . . that's three hours

> past my usual bedtime of 7 PM. I'm going home . . . I leave you

with

> this . . . let's all remember to speak becomingly . . . nothing you

> wouldn't say to your grandmothers, cause we're taking this list all

> the way to squeaky clean . . . that's right . . . and you'll all

> thank me when you see how much fun it can be! . . . so let's all

> scrub behind our ears . . . twice! . . . it wouldn't hurt to shine

> your shoes once in a while . . . always think friendly thoughts

about

> our fellow men . . . if you can't say something nice don't say

> anything at all . . . whistle a smart patriotic ditty while we

> work . . . that puts a gleam in your eye . . . stand up

> straight . . . stomach in . . . chest out . . . shoulders

back . . .

> clean your plate at every meal . . . including limas and brussels

> sprouts . . . stick to wholesome entertainments . . . none of those

> libertine Disney movies, thank you . . . do a good turn daily for

> another person, it'll make you feel good . . . and stop making that

> face at me, one day your face will freeze like that . . .

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Am I alowed to use the term sheep shagger if I don't like something

> someone posted. It's a new zealand term.

>

Ummmmmmmmmm I dono the language. I went to Oz and NZ once, but I was 6

years old.

Anyway my lil manic streak is over... I'm fresh out of smart mouth

remarks... but really, aside from whether we ever get any more PhDs or

MDs around, don't you think you can spread knowledge better without the

heavy profanity? I mean there are Christians and conservatives and

grandmothers who would completely freak about that stuff and go running

the other direction... but those people get sick and need to hear about

something other than prozac, just like everybody else does. This list

is somewhat unique because of our frank attitude. Cpnhelp has serious

protocols, so I like it. Other lists like eurolyme are good, but half-

dead people come on there taking nothing but some tetracycline and

nobody tells them how cheesey a protocol that is. I'm glad to have

absorbed your urgent and gung-ho attitude about treatment back in 2004,

but if I was an alter boy or grandma I probably wouldn't have absorbed

it, at least not the way you talk nowadays!

[Guest guest]

Rich:

I certainly respect everything you write- and the time you devote to

helping others.. but as I OBSERVE the people I know with crohns.. I

just don't think I agree with your statement... and I really don't have

proof or any research to back up what I'm saying (as I mentioned- it's

obvervation of the people I know with it). So I'm not saying my

opinion's correct - just throwing it out there.

In each case - we are talking about people who:

Are of various ages - 2 women 1 guy:

are the correct weight, eat nutritious food, good food - are not

diseased with anything else (that we know of). in 2 cases Crohns came

on slowly (in one woman with a fibro dx forst- then gluten intolerance-

then crohns - in the other woman it came on suddenly and agressively

after a vacation around the world after 4 years in Qutar (she was in

the military - now medically discharged). She didn't get any prelude

dx's before the crohns.

In the guys case - he just came down with it almost over night - and

had a section of intestine out within 2 years- now relapsing again.

It's my understanding that there's so much bacteria in the intestine -

that no ones really sure which ones shouldn't be there. so they have no

pathogen to target.

Could the pathoigen be in the wall of the intestine?? (I'm thinking of

the way h. pylori is actiually in the stomach wall and the lesion is

made by the immune systen constantly trying to get at it). So for any

abx to be effective (if I'm correct)would have to be tissue penetrating.

Barb

>

> In the case of Crohn's disease, I know that pathogens can get

> involved, but I don't see them as the fundamental issue.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Could the pathoigen be in the wall of the intestine?? (I'm thinking of

> the way h. pylori is actiually in the stomach wall and the lesion is

> made by the immune systen constantly trying to get at it). So for any

> abx to be effective (if I'm correct)would have to be tissue

> penetrating.

> Barb

If it's mycobacterium avium paratuberculosis, that is within the wall.

Four antibiotics are prescribed, for 2-5 years, and even then, relapse

is 75-80%. Extremely slow growing and difficult to kill.

[Guest guest]

Barb said: Could the pathoigen be in the wall of the intestine?? (I'm thinking of the way h. pylori is actiually in the stomach wall and the lesion is made by the immune systen constantly trying to get at it). So for any abx to be effective (if I'm correct)would have to be tissue penetrating. Exactly. This is why I get so frustrated with all the faulty immune system talk. Once these organisms penetrate tissue, bone or organs, it gets much harder for the immune system to reach them, no matter how much it's boosted. In fact, it's the immune system's hard work that causes a lot of the symptoms, like reactive arthritis, lesions,

ulcers, inflammatory conditions, "autoimmune" response, etc. Look what a bacterial infection can do to your skin, and how hard it can be to treat. What might it do to your insides, where it can find even more protection? What's up with "flesh eating" bacteria? Gangrene? There's a huge increase of kids all over the U.S. being reported with skin staph infections that are MRSA resistant and not responding to treatment. Are their immune systems the problem or the fact that the bugs have become stronger and "smarter"? I don't understand why people are underestimating both our immune systems and the organisms that adapt so quickly to outwit them. Not acknowledging the toughness of these organisms is putting the cart before the horse and then wasting a lot of time trying to get it to pull, imo. penny Barb Peck

<egroups1bp@...> wrote: Rich:I certainly respect everything you write- and the time you devote to helping others.. but as I OBSERVE the people I know with crohns.. I just don't think I agree with your statement... and I really don't have proof or any research to back up what I'm saying (as I mentioned- it's obvervation of the people I know with it). So I'm not saying my opinion's correct - just throwing it out there.In each case - we are talking about people who:Are of various ages - 2 women 1

guy:are the correct weight, eat nutritious food, good food - are not diseased with anything else (that we know of). in 2 cases Crohns came on slowly (in one woman with a fibro dx forst- then gluten intolerance- then crohns - in the other woman it came on suddenly and agressively after a vacation around the world after 4 years in Qutar (she was in the military - now medically discharged). She didn't get any prelude dx's before the crohns.In the guys case - he just came down with it almost over night - and had a section of intestine out within 2 years- now relapsing again.It's my understanding that there's so much bacteria in the intestine - that no ones really sure which ones shouldn't be there. so they have no pathogen to target.Could the pathoigen be in the wall of the intestine?? (I'm thinking of the way h. pylori is actiually in the stomach wall and the lesion is made by the immune systen constantly

trying to get at it). So for any abx to be effective (if I'm correct)would have to be tissue penetrating.Barb>> In the case of Crohn's disease, I know that pathogens can get > involved, but I don't see them as the fundamental issue.

[Guest guest]

My friend!! the system created the need for this brashness.I'm

alway's pewking at how time and time again someone sat through there

741 st doctors appointment and it's more of the same old, same old

crap. I'm the one that is trying to get them to shake the ground

beneath there doctors feet... unfortunately coming into converstaions

on this forum like a trim, polite, proper, card carrying chronically

ill person gets you the goody two shoes approach-egs.- the curvature

of your spine and the screws plates and bracing required means your

matress needs adjustment..

I'm sitting here and people are trivialising everything INSTEAD OF

TRYING TO CREATE A STRATEGY of supplements, eating styles, and

antimicrobials THAT SUIT MOST to see people moving forward and

getting there lives back.

.. You only have to look at the eurolyme list and you know how crazy

it is not to be doing and trying antimicrobials...for all intensive

purposes they are CFS people that got themselves a lucky lyme

diagnosis that sees them with a fighting chance.And if you sit

anywhere and support someone that keeps trying to put the infection

issue on second or third base and never has a strategy for it, your a

fuckwit as well IMO.

tony

>

>

> >

> > Am I alowed to use the term sheep shagger if I don't like

something

> > someone posted. It's a new zealand term.

> >

>

> Ummmmmmmmmm I dono the language. I went to Oz and NZ once, but I

was 6

> years old.

>

> Anyway my lil manic streak is over... I'm fresh out of smart mouth

> remarks... but really, aside from whether we ever get any more PhDs

or

> MDs around, don't you think you can spread knowledge better without

the

> heavy profanity? I mean there are Christians and conservatives and

> grandmothers who would completely freak about that stuff and go

running

> the other direction... but those people get sick and need to hear

about

> something other than prozac, just like everybody else does. This

list

> is somewhat unique because of our frank attitude. Cpnhelp has

serious

> protocols, so I like it. Other lists like eurolyme are good, but

half-

> dead people come on there taking nothing but some tetracycline and

> nobody tells them how cheesey a protocol that is. I'm glad to have

> absorbed your urgent and gung-ho attitude about treatment back in

2004,

> but if I was an alter boy or grandma I probably wouldn't have

absorbed

> it, at least not the way you talk nowadays!

>

[Guest guest]

Penny

THey know that in the last 100 years or so of infectious disaeses,

it's often the healthy immune system that spreads the infection.You

have to get over this forum crap talk about boosting the immune

system, go back thru history, or better still speak to someone on the

front lines and he'll explain to you how USELESS A GOOD IMMUNE SYSTEM

CAN BE TO MANY AN INFECTION.....

> >

>

> > In the case of Crohn's disease, I know that pathogens can get

> > involved, but I don't see them as the fundamental issue.

>

[Guest guest]

Because it's easier and more drugs get prescribed (for symtpoms) for

life...KaCHING $$$

Penny said:

I don't understand why people are underestimating both our immune

systems and the organisms that adapt so quickly to outwit them. Not

acknowledging the toughness of these organisms is putting the cart

before the horse and then wasting a lot of time trying to get it to

pull, imo.

penny

[Guest guest]

Yup. So why can't our community see past the bull and challenge the status quo? Maybe we ALL are a bunch of eff-wits. penny p.s. I'm still feeling really, really good. Most energy I've had in years. My only issue at this point is body pain, a reactive arthritic type thing. My right hip and shoulder are way messed up. But it must be the consistent long term use of penicillin VK and various antifungals, along with the betadine oral/nasal rinses, that finally have me on a prolonged upswing energy wise. (I did go back on the drugs, by the way, as soon as I started feeling symptoms return. It was nice to take a short break, but not nice enough to risk relapse). I've gotten so much accomplished of late, I really can't believe it. Next step, I'm going to get a compounding pharmacy to make me an

amphotericin B/ gentamycin nasal spray. I've heard great things about it and maybe it will give my liver a break from the antifungals. I think combined with the Pen. VK and Nystatin, which doesn't get processed by the liver, it could be very effective. penny Barb Peck <egroups1bp@...> wrote: Because it's easier and more drugs get prescribed (for symtpoms) for life...KaCHING

$$$Penny said:I don't understand why people are underestimating both our immune systems and the organisms that adapt so quickly to outwit them. Not acknowledging the toughness of these organisms is putting the cart before the horse and then wasting a lot of time trying to get it to pull, imo.penny

[Guest guest]

Penny:

Do you think the saltpipe did you any good at all???

A person I know that's had nasal infections for 15 years - resistant to

every abx known to man has just purchased one... We'll see if it helps

him at all.

Barb

>

> Yup. So why can't our community see past the bull and challenge the

status quo?

>

> Maybe we ALL are a bunch of eff-wits.

>

> penny

>

> p.s. I'm still feeling really, really good. Most energy I've had in

years. My only issue at this point is body pain, a reactive arthritic

type thing.

[Guest guest]

It's really hard to say. I used it regularly for a while, but couldn't really tell because I was also doing the betadine, etc. Every time I feel virusy or sinusy, I use it, but I still can't tell. In theory, it makes sense, so I keep using it off and on. penny Barb Peck <egroups1bp@...> wrote: Penny:Do you think the saltpipe did you any good at all???A person I know that's had nasal infections for 15 years - resistant to

every abx known to man has just purchased one... We'll see if it helps him at all.Barb>> Yup. So why can't our community see past the bull and challenge the status quo? > > Maybe we ALL are a bunch of eff-wits. > > penny> > p.s. I'm still feeling really, really good. Most energy I've had in years. My only issue at this point is body pain, a reactive arthritic type thing.

[Guest guest]

Penny:

That's the kind of answer I'd take as a " no " .

Usually - with alt. therapies.. if I don't see an improvement - then

I discard it.

But taht's just me.

B.

> >

> > Yup. So why can't our community see past the bull and challenge

the

> status quo?

> >

> > Maybe we ALL are a bunch of eff-wits.

> >

> > penny

> >

> > p.s. I'm still feeling really, really good. Most energy I've had

in

> years. My only issue at this point is body pain, a reactive

arthritic

> type thing.

>

[Guest guest]

Well Tony that's enough for me! I've finally had it with you and this

stupid list! I'm going back to my old forum, effective

immediately . . . that mp.com place . . . Let me tell you something,

they'll welcome me there! O, yes . . . what a crack team they

are . . . True, I've diverged from their views by a certain amount

since last time I was around there back in 2004 . . . but I bet

they'll be very excited to hear about my new ideas! . . .

.. . .

>

> My friend!! the system created the need for this brashness.I'm

> alway's pewking at how time and time again someone sat through

there

> 741 st doctors appointment and it's more of the same old, same old

> crap. I'm the one that is trying to get them to shake the ground

> beneath there doctors feet... unfortunately coming into

converstaions

> on this forum like a trim, polite, proper, card carrying

chronically

> ill person gets you the goody two shoes approach-egs.- the

curvature

> of your spine and the screws plates and bracing required means your

> matress needs adjustment..

> I'm sitting here and people are trivialising everything INSTEAD OF

> TRYING TO CREATE A STRATEGY of supplements, eating styles, and

> antimicrobials THAT SUIT MOST to see people moving forward and

> getting there lives back.

> . You only have to look at the eurolyme list and you know how crazy

> it is not to be doing and trying antimicrobials...for all intensive

> purposes they are CFS people that got themselves a lucky lyme

> diagnosis that sees them with a fighting chance.And if you sit

> anywhere and support someone that keeps trying to put the infection

> issue on second or third base and never has a strategy for it, your

a

> fuckwit as well IMO.

> tony

[Guest guest]

Wait, I sort of just changed my mind . . . take me back . . . I'm

begging you . . .

> Well Tony that's enough for me! I've finally had it with you and this

> stupid list! I'm going back to my old forum, effective

> immediately . . . that mp.com place . . . Let me tell you something,

> they'll welcome me there! O, yes . . . what a crack team they

> are . . . True, I've diverged from their views by a certain amount

> since last time I was around there back in 2004 . . . but I bet

> they'll be very excited to hear about my new ideas! . . .

>

> . . .

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Because it's easier and more drugs get prescribed (for symtpoms) for

> life...KaCHING $$$

Actually I think that when the Big Fix comes, if ever (I'm indulging my

own viewpoint by assuming it will be a special sort of antibacterial

that gets around physiological resistance), I wouldn't be shocked if a

lot of people are on it for a very long time, maybe permanently. It's

possible it could be very profitable. Treating a disease like TB would

make a killing -- that is, if anyone who had it had any money by rich-

world standards, and rifampin and such were still under patent.

Drug firms are hurting these days. It's quite true that discoveries

have slowed down. Sadly (for us), a lot of that may be because the easy

stuff has been discovered already.

People at drug firms have sick family like anyone... my guess is they

want to see the cures come down as much as any of us. Unfortunately,

right now (likewise for the past decade or two), it's almost

exquisitely difficult to get yourself a lab in either biomed industry

or academia. One false move and you're out of the running. This leads

to a terrible scientific conservatism. Don't mess up! Even once you get

academic tenure or a job at one of the large firms (which are more

stable; most of the small firms go under), you still fight to maintain

your funding or job, unless you reach the top of your field. By that

time, I don't think people have nearly as much ambition to blow a hole

in science... we're very lucky when a king o' the hill like Prineas

decides to beat the recieved MS science half to death by demonstrating

that cell death can precede leucocyte infiltration. There was certainly

resistance, but no one could say, " now who is this cheesey renegade

Prineas, " because they all knew exactly who he was. There is no

way to ignore Prineas or relegate him to some journal no one reads,

such as Infection, where the Brorson's had their MS borrelia study come

out.

[Guest guest]

Very good points. Nothing's ever simple, especially in an industry where academia has become dependent on profitability, and profits are weighed against potential lawsuits. <usenethod@...> wrote: > Because it's easier and more drugs get prescribed (for symtpoms) for > life...KaCHING $$$Actually I think that when the Big Fix comes, if ever (I'm indulging my own viewpoint by assuming it will be a special sort of

antibacterial that gets around physiological resistance), I wouldn't be shocked if a lot of people are on it for a very long time, maybe permanently. It's possible it could be very profitable. Treating a disease like TB would make a killing -- that is, if anyone who had it had any money by rich-world standards, and rifampin and such were still under patent. Drug firms are hurting these days. It's quite true that discoveries have slowed down. Sadly (for us), a lot of that may be because the easy stuff has been discovered already.People at drug firms have sick family like anyone... my guess is they want to see the cures come down as much as any of us. Unfortunately, right now (likewise for the past decade or two), it's almost exquisitely difficult to get yourself a lab in either biomed industry or academia. One false move and you're out of the running. This leads to a terrible scientific conservatism. Don't mess

up! Even once you get academic tenure or a job at one of the large firms (which are more stable; most of the small firms go under), you still fight to maintain your funding or job, unless you reach the top of your field. By that time, I don't think people have nearly as much ambition to blow a hole in science... we're very lucky when a king o' the hill like Prineas decides to beat the recieved MS science half to death by demonstrating that cell death can precede leucocyte infiltration. There was certainly resistance, but no one could say, "now who is this cheesey renegade Prineas," because they all knew exactly who he was. There is no way to ignore Prineas or relegate him to some journal no one reads, such as Infection, where the Brorson's had their MS borrelia study come out.

[Guest guest]

> Very good points. Nothing's ever simple, especially in an industry

where academia has become dependent on profitability, and profits are

weighed against potential lawsuits.

The US academic biomed depts don't really depend on tuition revenues

or anything, at least in my loose understanding. The money (in the

USA) really comes from NIH, ultimately from our federal taxes. At the

top of every field sit the big dogs, a fairly small cadre, I think,

who really decide which NIH grants get funded.

It's oligarchic - but I don't think there's really a better way.

There's not much the public can do about it, except help to fund key

people like, say, Gow, who can maybe produce the results that might

change a field.

When a field is largely dominated by one great theory/focus

(autoimmunity in MS, or amyloids in Alzheimer's), the people who call

the shots at NIH will almost invariably have spent decades working on

those traditional angles. Most or many of them are probably very good

people in every sense of the word, but to a greater or lesser degree

it's painful to see your (and your buddies') entire life's work

rendered semi-irrelevant by some outrageous new paradigm. This may be

why the Alzheimer's pathogen people, eg, end up in a situation where

they can barely get any grants. Balin's and Hudson's labs seem to be

chugging along, but I've seen complaints on alzforum that the money

made available to the Alz pathogens subfield, in general, is chump

change, overall.

[Guest guest]

Dear

This reflects the whole problem of peer review. The fact that applications for funding are scrutinised (and papers for publication) by the very people whose theories are about to be overturned. Illustrates the importance of PLoS in publication and the importance of private Philanthropic Foundations in research (Bill and Melinda, where are you when you are needed).

R

[infections] Re: Crohn's remedies

> Very good points. Nothing's ever simple, especially in an industry where academia has become dependent on profitability, and profits are weighed against potential lawsuits.The US academic biomed depts don't really depend on tuition revenues or anything, at least in my loose understanding. The money (in the USA) really comes from NIH, ultimately from our federal taxes. At the top of every field sit the big dogs, a fairly small cadre, I think, who really decide which NIH grants get funded. It's oligarchic - but I don't think there's really a better way. There's not much the public can do about it, except help to fund key people like, say, Gow, who can maybe produce the results that might change a field.When a field is largely dominated by one great theory/focus (autoimmunity in MS, or amyloids in Alzheimer's), the people who call the shots at NIH will almost invariably have spent decades working on those traditional angles. Most or many of them are probably very good people in every sense of the word, but to a greater or lesser degree it's painful to see your (and your buddies') entire life's work rendered semi-irrelevant by some outrageous new paradigm. This may be why the Alzheimer's pathogen people, eg, end up in a situation where they can barely get any grants. Balin's and Hudson's labs seem to be chugging along, but I've seen complaints on alzforum that the money made available to the Alz pathogens subfield, in general, is chump change, overall.

[Guest guest]

Not tuition, but more and more universities are getting money from major corporations to fund medical research, no? It's not just the NIH that funds research. But yeah, your point about the NIH is really true, especially regarding the people who are there are going to have their own experiential leanings driving their decision. penny <usenethod@...> wrote: > Very good points. Nothing's ever simple, especially in an industry where

academia has become dependent on profitability, and profits are weighed against potential lawsuits.The US academic biomed depts don't really depend on tuition revenues or anything, at least in my loose understanding. The money (in the USA) really comes from NIH, ultimately from our federal taxes. At the top of every field sit the big dogs, a fairly small cadre, I think, who really decide which NIH grants get funded. It's oligarchic - but I don't think there's really a better way. There's not much the public can do about it, except help to fund key people like, say, Gow, who can maybe produce the results that might change a field.When a field is largely dominated by one great theory/focus (autoimmunity in MS, or amyloids in Alzheimer's), the people who call the shots at NIH will almost invariably have spent decades working on those traditional angles. Most or many of them are probably very good

people in every sense of the word, but to a greater or lesser degree it's painful to see your (and your buddies') entire life's work rendered semi-irrelevant by some outrageous new paradigm. This may be why the Alzheimer's pathogen people, eg, end up in a situation where they can barely get any grants. Balin's and Hudson's labs seem to be chugging along, but I've seen complaints on alzforum that the money made available to the Alz pathogens subfield, in general, is chump change, overall.

[Guest guest]

> Not tuition, but more and more universities are getting money from

major corporations to fund medical research, no? It's not just the

NIH that funds research. But yeah, your point about the NIH is really

true, especially regarding the people who are there are going to have

their own experiential leanings driving their decision.

Yeah, I forgot about that. I've heard about some Pfizer money at UVA.

I found this:

www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/internet/news/Archives05/pfizergrant.cfm

" The gift from Pfizer and the Pfizer Foundation will allow at least

two post-doctoral fellows or junior faculty from U.Va. to travel

overseas for one year of research in infectious diseases, clinical

microbiology, epidemiology, biostatistics or other subspecialty of

global health. That number will go up to six fellows if each fellow

chooses to spend four months overseas.

" In addition, the same number of students or fellows from

international partner nations will receive infectious disease

training at U.Va. These fellows will then return to their home

nations to train others in the academic, policy and public health

arenas of global health. The initiative will also target new sites

where international exchanges could significantly help AIDS

prevention. "

I don't think the big firms do much plain old, daily bread funding of

academic labs, though. That would be hard to imagine after what I

have heard about their turnover rates, on Lowe's blog and

elsewhere. Seems big pharma's always sacking people, and it's almost

as hard to keep yourself in there as it is to get a professorship.

Pfizer just recently fired 10,000 employees of its 100,000 total

(both numbers include salespeople as well as scientists).

[Guest guest]

If they look at university funding as a type of "contracting out", then it's actually much cheaper for them than paying into retirement funds, health care, and the myriad of other expenses involved in keeping employees long term. penny <usenethod@...> wrote: > Not tuition, but more and more universities are getting money from major corporations to fund medical research, no? It's not just the NIH that funds research. But yeah, your point

about the NIH is really true, especially regarding the people who are there are going to have their own experiential leanings driving their decision.Yeah, I forgot about that. I've heard about some Pfizer money at UVA. I found this:www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/internet/news/Archives05/pfizergrant.cfm"The gift from Pfizer and the Pfizer Foundation will allow at least two post-doctoral fellows or junior faculty from U.Va. to travel overseas for one year of research in infectious diseases, clinical microbiology, epidemiology, biostatistics or other subspecialty of global health. That number will go up to six fellows if each fellow chooses to spend four months overseas. "In addition, the same number of students or fellows from international partner nations will receive infectious disease training at U.Va. These fellows will then return to their home nations to train others in

the academic, policy and public health arenas of global health. The initiative will also target new sites where international exchanges could significantly help AIDS prevention."I don't think the big firms do much plain old, daily bread funding of academic labs, though. That would be hard to imagine after what I have heard about their turnover rates, on Lowe's blog and elsewhere. Seems big pharma's always sacking people, and it's almost as hard to keep yourself in there as it is to get a professorship. Pfizer just recently fired 10,000 employees of its 100,000 total (both numbers include salespeople as well as scientists).