Re: Someone asked about the MP?

[Guest guest]

Dollars to donuts, that's heavily edited, and written by commitee -

(not soley by the proported author).

It serves it's purpose.. It'll draw 'em in'.

Barb

>

> Here's the latest news (or propaganda), as the case may be. :-)

>

>

> A Journey Towards Complete Recovery From CFS: An UPDATE of My

Progress on the Marshall Protocol

> by Amy Proal

> ImmuneSupport.com

>

> 01-31-2007

> http://www.immunesupport.com/library/showarticle.cfm/id/7676

>

[Guest guest]

Dollars or donuts, you would lose your bet. The author is more than

capable of writing on her own.

Ken

> >

> > Here's the latest news (or propaganda), as the case may be. :-)

> >

> >

> > A Journey Towards Complete Recovery From CFS: An UPDATE of My

> Progress on the Marshall Protocol

> > by Amy Proal

> > ImmuneSupport.com

> >

> > 01-31-2007

> > http://www.immunesupport.com/library/showarticle.cfm/id/7676

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Capable or not.. most of the reports relating to that therapy are

passed thru commitee and heavily edited.

You'd lose the bet.

B.

> > >

> > > Here's the latest news (or propaganda), as the case may be. :-)

> > >

> > >

> > > A Journey Towards Complete Recovery From CFS: An UPDATE of My

> > Progress on the Marshall Protocol

> > > by Amy Proal

> > > ImmuneSupport.com

> > >

> > > 01-31-2007

> > > http://www.immunesupport.com/library/showarticle.cfm/id/7676

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Yeah, having been on that "committee" and then being sued for having a different opinon, I'll stick with Barb on this one. Barb Peck <egroups1bp@...> wrote: Capable or not.. most of the reports relating to that therapy are passed thru commitee and heavily edited.You'd lose the bet.B.> > >> > > Here's the latest news (or propaganda), as the case may be. :-)> > > > > > > > > A

Journey Towards Complete Recovery From CFS: An UPDATE of My > > Progress on the Marshall Protocol> > > by Amy Proal> > > ImmuneSupport.com> > > > > > 01-31-2007 > > > http://www.immunesupport.com/library/showarticle.cfm/id/7676> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

Well, since you are so interested in how well MPer's are doing, I am

posting my two year update from the MP site.

----------------------------------------------------------

I started this illness with the classic flu-like symptoms. Fatigue,

weakness, brainfog, swollen lymph nodes. Through the 20 odd years

since, many other symptoms have arisen. Some I recognized as being

related to CFS, many I did not. At the time I discovered the MP my

downward spiral was gaining speed. I was using ski poles for even

short walks, and considering a cane for normal use. My physical and

mental condition had deteriorated to the point where I could not

keep working for much longer.

I am currently on phase 3 of the MP. By adjusting the levels of the

3 abx combo I can manage the immunopathology from " not noticeable "

to debilitating. The last time I took a break from the abx was

August. I had no noticeable symptoms, plenty of energy, and was

regaining strength through increased activity.

The following is a list of symptoms and how the have, so far,

resolved. In no particular order.

Fatigue/weakness – Incredibly improved. Immunopathology makes it

difficult to objectify, but when on break it would appear to be

completely resolved.

Brain fog – Same as above. Now only my worst immunopathology

reaction is capable of turning me into a zombie. It is difficult to

describe what it is like to have my mind back, so I am not even

going to try.

Muscle/joint pain – Gone gone gone! Returns occasionally as

immunopathology, but not often.

Chronic sinusitis, chronic bronchitis – Gone gone gone! I used to

get one or the other 2-3 times a year. NOTHING since starting the MP.

Colds, flus, " bugs " etc. – I used to get these on a regular basis.

Since the MP I have had one cold (lasted 8 days at only a low level)

and one " bug " . The " bug " was a GI infection that was never

diagnosed, but appears to be a noro virus that is so popular lately.

Lower back pain – I have had this off and on since I was a teenager.

Later it has been more on than off. It stopped within 3 days of

starting on Benicar. It returns occasionally as temporary

immunopathology.

Chest pain – this had become common in the last 10 years. EKG showed

nothing, doctors seemed disinclined to look further. It is also

gone. Reappears occasionally as immunopathology.

Swollen lymph nodes – common pre-MP symptom, various nodes involved.

At the start of the MP, nodes behind knees and elbows were very

swollen. This resolved after several months. No problems since.

Skin irregularities:

Red face – always looked drunk.

Oily skin – I had become a real grease ball.

Loss of elasticity on back of hands – Hands looked like I was 100.

Cigarette size areas of thin, easily ripped skin that were slow to

heal

Red and oily have gone away. Skin on hands has returned to normal.

The little cigarette sized " wounds " disappeared, but return often,

in different locations. The new wounds heal in about 10 days, as

opposed to 6-12 months previously.

Twitches – I would have small muscle twitches which would last hours-

days. For the last year I had an eye twitch that was constant. Gone

gone gone. Now barely a memory.

Jaw pain and " click " – Jaw pain would appear for a few days and then

disappear. For the last two years I had developed a click in my jaw.

It started on the left side on occasion. For the last year it was

both sides all the time. Disappeared sometime in phase 1. Has not

returned.

Difficulty swallowing – Food would get half way down and just stop.

Each meal was a struggle to swallow before choking. Disappeared

sometime in phase 1, has not returned.

Reflux like symptoms – Difficult to control, really bad at night.

Prilosec was the only thing that could control it. – No change.

Still cannot go more than two days without prilosec.

Tinnitus – Had it for years. It is still there, but varies quite a

bit with immunopathology. There have been a few days of precious

silence. There have been some days of near insanity level pitch and

volume.

" Thick " blood – Always had a hard time drawing blood. I would have

to continuously clench and relax fist to pump it out. The phlebs

thought it was odd but the doctors never seemed interested. My first

blood test after staring treatment was at 2 months and blood flowed

freely. I have had no problems since.

Wound healing – Used to be nearly non-existent. Even small cuts

would last for a long time. Now wounds heal quickly and normally.

Disregulated vitamin D – Original tests showed 1,25D level of 57

pg/ML, about twice the population norm. I am now down to the low

30's, within normal range.

Sun sensitivity – Prior to the MP I already knew that the sun caused

problems. A few hours of fun in the sun would make me feel horrible

all night and most of the next morning. Sunburn would put me down

for a week. For many years I have worn large brimmed hats,

sunglasses, and long sleeved shirts in the sun. When I started the

MP my sensitivity increased spectacularly, especially in the eyes.

As I have progressed through the MP my sensitivity has steadily

decreased. I am now at about the same level I was prior to the MP.

Well, maybe a little better. Last summer I still managed to spend a

fair amount of time outdoors, kayaking, fishing, swimming etc. . I

used some basic precautions and did not have any serious problems,

or any moderate ones either. I have enough optimism for this summer

that I have already ordered a new kayak.

There are probably a lot of other little things that I never

considered symptoms and can't remember when they stopped. But I find

all this introspection a bit boring. I prefer looking ahead. I guess

the biggest change is that I now can make plans and have a

reasonable chance of seeing them through. I now seem to have a

future.

---------------------------------------------------------

Despite my improvement on the MP, I am not in any way recommending

it for anyone else. Why not? Simple, I just don't care. It works for

me but anyone can choose any treatment they want. Whether it works

for you or not, I just don't care. I know that the Cult of Anti-MP

will claim that I am not really any better, just delusional. Or that

this was really written by committee. I just don't care. There is

too much life out there and I've wasted enough time on this already.

Ken

[Guest guest]

Ken,

I find your comment about the " cult of anti-MP either hysterically

funny or tragic - can't decide which since the only time in my life I

was accused of being in a cult was when I was a moderator for the MP

website.

I have two comments on your update:

1. Zithromax at 500 mg a day for a couple of years will do the same

thing BUT IT IS NOT A CURE. You are relapsing, not herxing in my

opinion. I base my comment here on my own experience. The best I have

ever done was the first two years when I took Zithromax every day at

high dose. I had every symptom you mention and they all cleared up.

Most have not returned. I had NO PROGRESS AT ALL ON THE MP in 18

months. This was probably because i was already at the level you

describe after 2 years of the MP.

2. Please post one nice simple article NOT WRITTEN BY MEG OR JOYCE

SHOWING THAT NORMAL 1,25 D LEVELS ARE AROUND 30. If you can do that

and want to visit Las Vegas, I will personally take you out to dinner.

a Carnes

2

>

> Well, since you are so interested in how well MPer's are doing, I

am

> posting my two year update from the MP site.

> ----------------------------------------------------------

>

> I started this illness with the classic flu-like symptoms. Fatigue,

> weakness, brainfog, swollen lymph nodes. Through the 20 odd years

> since, many other symptoms have arisen. Some I recognized as being

> related to CFS, many I did not. At the time I discovered the MP my

> downward spiral was gaining speed. I was using ski poles for even

> short walks, and considering a cane for normal use. My physical and

> mental condition had deteriorated to the point where I could not

> keep working for much longer.

>

> I am currently on phase 3 of the MP. By adjusting the levels of the

> 3 abx combo I can manage the immunopathology from " not noticeable "

> to debilitating. The last time I took a break from the abx was

> August. I had no noticeable symptoms, plenty of energy, and was

> regaining strength through increased activity.

>

> The following is a list of symptoms and how the have, so far,

> resolved. In no particular order.

>

> Fatigue/weakness – Incredibly improved. Immunopathology makes it

> difficult to objectify, but when on break it would appear to be

> completely resolved.

>

> Brain fog – Same as above. Now only my worst immunopathology

> reaction is capable of turning me into a zombie. It is difficult to

> describe what it is like to have my mind back, so I am not even

> going to try.

>

> Muscle/joint pain – Gone gone gone! Returns occasionally as

> immunopathology, but not often.

>

> Chronic sinusitis, chronic bronchitis – Gone gone gone! I used to

> get one or the other 2-3 times a year. NOTHING since starting the

MP.

>

> Colds, flus, " bugs " etc. – I used to get these on a regular basis.

> Since the MP I have had one cold (lasted 8 days at only a low

level)

> and one " bug " . The " bug " was a GI infection that was never

> diagnosed, but appears to be a noro virus that is so popular lately.

>

> Lower back pain – I have had this off and on since I was a

teenager.

> Later it has been more on than off. It stopped within 3 days of

> starting on Benicar. It returns occasionally as temporary

> immunopathology.

>

> Chest pain – this had become common in the last 10 years. EKG

showed

> nothing, doctors seemed disinclined to look further. It is also

> gone. Reappears occasionally as immunopathology.

>

> Swollen lymph nodes – common pre-MP symptom, various nodes

involved.

> At the start of the MP, nodes behind knees and elbows were very

> swollen. This resolved after several months. No problems since.

>

> Skin irregularities:

> Red face – always looked drunk.

> Oily skin – I had become a real grease ball.

> Loss of elasticity on back of hands – Hands looked like I was 100.

> Cigarette size areas of thin, easily ripped skin that were slow to

> heal

>

> Red and oily have gone away. Skin on hands has returned to normal.

> The little cigarette sized " wounds " disappeared, but return often,

> in different locations. The new wounds heal in about 10 days, as

> opposed to 6-12 months previously.

>

> Twitches – I would have small muscle twitches which would last

hours-

> days. For the last year I had an eye twitch that was constant. Gone

> gone gone. Now barely a memory.

>

> Jaw pain and " click " – Jaw pain would appear for a few days and

then

> disappear. For the last two years I had developed a click in my

jaw.

> It started on the left side on occasion. For the last year it was

> both sides all the time. Disappeared sometime in phase 1. Has not

> returned.

>

> Difficulty swallowing – Food would get half way down and just stop.

> Each meal was a struggle to swallow before choking. Disappeared

> sometime in phase 1, has not returned.

>

> Reflux like symptoms – Difficult to control, really bad at night.

> Prilosec was the only thing that could control it. – No change.

> Still cannot go more than two days without prilosec.

>

> Tinnitus – Had it for years. It is still there, but varies quite a

> bit with immunopathology. There have been a few days of precious

> silence. There have been some days of near insanity level pitch and

> volume.

>

> " Thick " blood – Always had a hard time drawing blood. I would have

> to continuously clench and relax fist to pump it out. The phlebs

> thought it was odd but the doctors never seemed interested. My

first

> blood test after staring treatment was at 2 months and blood flowed

> freely. I have had no problems since.

>

> Wound healing – Used to be nearly non-existent. Even small cuts

> would last for a long time. Now wounds heal quickly and normally.

>

> Disregulated vitamin D – Original tests showed 1,25D level of 57

> pg/ML, about twice the population norm. I am now down to the low

> 30's, within normal range.

>

> Sun sensitivity – Prior to the MP I already knew that the sun

caused

> problems. A few hours of fun in the sun would make me feel horrible

> all night and most of the next morning. Sunburn would put me down

> for a week. For many years I have worn large brimmed hats,

> sunglasses, and long sleeved shirts in the sun. When I started the

> MP my sensitivity increased spectacularly, especially in the eyes.

> As I have progressed through the MP my sensitivity has steadily

> decreased. I am now at about the same level I was prior to the MP.

> Well, maybe a little better. Last summer I still managed to spend a

> fair amount of time outdoors, kayaking, fishing, swimming etc. . I

> used some basic precautions and did not have any serious problems,

> or any moderate ones either. I have enough optimism for this summer

> that I have already ordered a new kayak.

>

> There are probably a lot of other little things that I never

> considered symptoms and can't remember when they stopped. But I

find

> all this introspection a bit boring. I prefer looking ahead. I

guess

> the biggest change is that I now can make plans and have a

> reasonable chance of seeing them through. I now seem to have a

> future.

> ---------------------------------------------------------

>

> Despite my improvement on the MP, I am not in any way recommending

> it for anyone else. Why not? Simple, I just don't care. It works

for

> me but anyone can choose any treatment they want. Whether it works

> for you or not, I just don't care. I know that the Cult of Anti-MP

> will claim that I am not really any better, just delusional. Or

that

> this was really written by committee. I just don't care. There is

> too much life out there and I've wasted enough time on this

already.

>

> Ken

>

[Guest guest]

Ken, I'm happy it's working for you. Please try to care whether it

works for other people -- at least enough to keep in touch and let us

know how it goes for you in the future.

- Kate

> Despite my improvement on the MP, I am not in any way recommending

> it for anyone else. Why not? Simple, I just don't care. It works for

> me but anyone can choose any treatment they want. Whether it works

> for you or not, I just don't care. I know that the Cult of Anti-MP

> will claim that I am not really any better, just delusional. Or that

> this was really written by committee. I just don't care. There is

> too much life out there and I've wasted enough time on this already.

[Guest guest]

Ken, I was on Benicar for 2+ years. I didn't take it as a lark, it was too expensive for that. I took it because it relieved a whole lot of my symptoms...until I didn't need it anymore, and until I started getting a bit concerned about muscle weakness. The antibiotics I take are different based on testing and because of a severely adverse reaction to one of the antibiotics you're taking. That was absolutely necessary for my health, but frowned upon nonetheless. I'm happy the protocol has helped you, but the idea that the same exact protocol, with the same exact antibiotics will work for everyone's infection, is pretty fantastic at best, and at worst, can potentially be harmful. Even more likely to harm when negative reports are banned from discussion. I do know what I'm talking about. I was also a moderator on that list. We are happy to

discuss benicar and related protocols openly, as long as all points of view are allowed. But based on hard learned experience, we don't just accept what's spoon fed through "press releases".

[Guest guest]

Love it!

--- In infections , " pjeanneus " <pj7@...>

wrote:

>

> 2. Please post one nice simple article NOT WRITTEN BY MEG OR JOYCE

SHOWING THAT NORMAL 1,25 D LEVELS ARE AROUND 30. If you can do that

and want to visit Las Vegas, I will personally take you out to dinner.

a Carnes

[Guest guest]

I have the same sentiments as Kate. Your and some others' results are

impressive (though I stand by my somewhat subjective impression,

recently discussed, that the number of people who tried the protocol

was quite high). Personally I think your results might result from the

abx only, but that's hard to prove or disprove without clinical studies.

As for whether Amy can write her own article, I don't doubt that she

can. What direct evidence is there that she didn't write it herself?

As for the article's scientific assertions... show me the data.

> Ken, I'm happy it's working for you. Please try to care whether it

> works for other people -- at least enough to keep in touch and let us

know how it goes for you in the future.

>

> - Kate

> > Despite my improvement on the MP, I am not in any way recommending

> > it for anyone else. Why not? Simple, I just don't care. It works for

> > me but anyone can choose any treatment they want. Whether it works

> > for you or not, I just don't care. I know that the Cult of Anti-MP

> > will claim that I am not really any better, just delusional. Or that

> > this was really written by committee. I just don't care. There is

> > too much life out there and I've wasted enough time on this already.

[Guest guest]

While the abx may be helping people, I want to point out that Benicar

has multiple effects, any one of which could be of help to people.

Increasing insulin sensitivity and reducing inflammation are the most

well known ones, but there are others, which I list on my recently

updated MP web page:

http://stuff.mit.edu/people/london/universe.htm

Researchers are only now starting to study high doses of ARBs for

various conditions, especially for atypical uses, such as arthritis.

It'll be interesting to see what they discover.

What is most bothersome about the MP to me, is not whether it works

for someone or not, but the unfounded scientific theories and claims

on the MP web pages. One of the worst claims is that feeling worse

is a good sign, and that it's not a side effect, and that it means

that you are killing off CWD. This claim has led people to stay on

the protocol, regardless of worsening symptoms. In one case, this

led a sarcoidosis patient to decide to ignore his doctor's advice to

go back on steroids, and he died.

> I have the same sentiments as Kate. Your and some others' results

are

> impressive (though I stand by my somewhat subjective impression,

> recently discussed, that the number of people who tried the

protocol

> was quite high). Personally I think your results might result from

the

> abx only, but that's hard to prove or disprove without clinical

studies.

>

> As for whether Amy can write her own article, I don't doubt that

she

> can. What direct evidence is there that she didn't write it herself?

>

> As for the article's scientific assertions... show me the data.

>

>

> > Ken, I'm happy it's working for you. Please try to care whether

it

> > works for other people -- at least enough to keep in touch and

let us

> know how it goes for you in the future.

> >

> > - Kate

>

>

> > > Despite my improvement on the MP, I am not in any way

recommending

> > > it for anyone else. Why not? Simple, I just don't care. It

works for

> > > me but anyone can choose any treatment they want. Whether it

works

> > > for you or not, I just don't care. I know that the Cult of Anti-

MP

> > > will claim that I am not really any better, just delusional. Or

that

> > > this was really written by committee. I just don't care. There

is

> > > too much life out there and I've wasted enough time on this

already.

>

[Guest guest]

Mark. Yessss! I feel like standing up and applauding. Thank you. Yet again! Just watch out. The next thing you know you could be receiving an emergency summons to appear in a Ventura County Court within 24 hours because the plaintiff has gotten a judge to waive the normal time period. If this does happen, don't worry, I know a lawyer who knows how to play that game. pennyMark London <mrl@...> wrote: While the

abx may be helping people, I want to point out that Benicar has multiple effects, any one of which could be of help to people. Increasing insulin sensitivity and reducing inflammation are the most well known ones, but there are others, which I list on my recently updated MP web page:http://stuff.mit.edu/people/london/universe.htmResearchers are only now starting to study high doses of ARBs for various conditions, especially for atypical uses, such as arthritis. It'll be interesting to see what they discover. ;)What is most bothersome about the MP to me, is not whether it works for someone or not, but the unfounded scientific theories and claims on the MP web pages. One of the worst claims is that feeling worse is a good sign, and that it's not a side effect, and that it means that you are killing off CWD. This claim has led people to

stay on the protocol, regardless of worsening symptoms. In one case, this led a sarcoidosis patient to decide to ignore his doctor's advice to go back on steroids, and he died.> I have the same sentiments as Kate. Your and some others' results are > impressive (though I stand by my somewhat subjective impression, > recently discussed, that the number of people who tried the protocol > was quite high). Personally I think your results might result from the > abx only, but that's hard to prove or disprove without clinical studies.> > As for whether Amy can write her own article, I don't doubt that she > can. What direct evidence is there that she didn't write it herself?> > As for the article's

scientific assertions... show me the data.> > > > Ken, I'm happy it's working for you. Please try to care whether it > > works for other people -- at least enough to keep in touch and let us > know how it goes for you in the future.> > > > - Kate> > > > > Despite my improvement on the MP, I am not in any way recommending> > > it for anyone else. Why not? Simple, I just don't care. It works for> > > me but anyone can choose any treatment they want. Whether it works> > > for you or not, I just don't care. I know that the Cult of Anti-MP> > > will claim that I am not really any better, just delusional. Or that> > > this was really written by committee. I just don't care. There is> > > too much life out there and I've wasted enough time on this

already.>

[Guest guest]

Interesting timing this ARB conversation. I have an aunty and an

uncle that live close by- the uncle has been on an arb for ten plus

years and swears by the no side effects he received from this form of

lowering blood pressure. YET the aunty who started the drug approx 4

or 5 years ago started to gain heaps of weight, was constantly given

antibiotics for chest infections, has had major arthritic problems,

lower back pain that's seen her debilitated for the last couple of

years and put on morphine. I realised that all her symptoms stem from

the drug and after many years they DON " T IMPROVE BUT CONTINUE TO GET

WORSE. I also looked up a site where people recover from lower back

problems 3 days after stopping this group of drugs.

There remarkable life saving crapola is shady at best IMO.I tend to

think the lower you infectious load, the less toxicity load, EQUALS

best outocme.How lucky can some people be when every multiple

antibiotic lowers there infection and doesn't stimulate there bugs.

> > I have the same sentiments as Kate. Your and some others' results

> are

> > impressive (though I stand by my somewhat subjective impression,

> > recently discussed, that the number of people who tried the

> protocol

> > was quite high). Personally I think your results might result

from

> the

> > abx only, but that's hard to prove or disprove without clinical

> studies.

> >

> > As for whether Amy can write her own article, I don't doubt that

> she

> > can. What direct evidence is there that she didn't write it

herself?

> >

> > As for the article's scientific assertions... show me the data.

> >

> >

> > > Ken, I'm happy it's working for you. Please try to care whether

> it

> > > works for other people -- at least enough to keep in touch and

> let us

> > know how it goes for you in the future.

> > >

> > > - Kate

> >

> >

> > > > Despite my improvement on the MP, I am not in any way

> recommending

> > > > it for anyone else. Why not? Simple, I just don't care. It

> works for

> > > > me but anyone can choose any treatment they want. Whether it

> works

> > > > for you or not, I just don't care. I know that the Cult of

Anti-

> MP

> > > > will claim that I am not really any better, just delusional.

Or

> that

> > > > this was really written by committee. I just don't care.

There

> is

> > > > too much life out there and I've wasted enough time on this

> already.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

You nailed it.

In the early days before there was a protocol...I was part of the

inner circle (Penny was also associated in the early days).

a was too- but hung in there longer ( I was openly argumentative

with the group- including a for some time after I left the group,

but the law suit against Penny tempered everyone involved with

disagreeing with them).

I did some of the abx research for that group.. and there are some

things about that protocol that may be correct (I don't disagree with

everything about it).. but their methodology was what SUCKED... alot

was couched in scientific terms, but NOT scientific at all..

*** MY ** writings were edited (re-written by commitee).. so I know

the " group' style is.. so we will never know whether Amy wrote her

piece or not.. it's definitely in the 'commitee style'.

In regards to the " gotta feel worse before you feel better'..

They totally have bastardized what the herx really is - into twiating

the definition into fitting what could be adverse reactions to drugs..

Under the best conditions, sometimes herx is difficult to define..

and IMO they've blighted the term forever.

In those early days- I had an adverse reaction to (full dose) Zith

(biliary sludge) and I was heavily pressured (bullied IMO) to stay on

it instead of go off.. of course I made my own decisions - and went

off. And I left the group after those two (and other disturbing)

instances.

I think there's been alot of 'collateral damage' along that protocols

road to the Nobel Prize... and there'll always be new, fresh supply-

'recruits' as fodder.

Barb

>

What is most bothersome about the MP to me, is not whether it works

for someone or not, but the unfounded scientific theories and claims

on the MP web pages. One of the worst claims is that feeling worse

is a good sign, and that it's not a side effect, and that it means

that you are killing off CWD. This claim has led people to stay on

the protocol, regardless of worsening symptoms

[Guest guest]

Tony wrote: How lucky can some people be when every multiple antibiotic lowers there infection and doesn't stimulate there bugs. yes, how lucky indeed. Like winning the lottery (and not even knowing it.) If the same 3 antibiotics could work for all bacterial infections, you can believe the pharmaceutical companies wouldn't be wasting their time and money on continually developing new ones. In fact, the only reason pharmaceutical companies have slowed down on developing new antibiotics is not because there isn't a need, but because the bacteria become resistant to them too quickly and they can't recoup their investment. Our best bet at this point may be the government supporting research to fight bioterrorism. pennydumbaussie2000

<dumbaussie2000@...> wrote: Interesting timing this ARB conversation. I have an aunty and an uncle that live close by- the uncle has been on an arb for ten plus years and swears by the no side effects he received from this form of lowering blood pressure. YET the aunty who started the drug approx 4 or 5 years ago started to gain heaps of weight, was constantly given antibiotics for chest infections, has had major arthritic problems, lower back pain that's seen her debilitated for the last

couple of years and put on morphine. I realised that all her symptoms stem from the drug and after many years they DON"T IMPROVE BUT CONTINUE TO GET WORSE. I also looked up a site where people recover from lower back problems 3 days after stopping this group of drugs.There remarkable life saving crapola is shady at best IMO.I tend to think the lower you infectious load, the less toxicity load, EQUALS best outocme.How lucky can some people be when every multiple antibiotic lowers there infection and doesn't stimulate there bugs.> > I have the same sentiments as Kate. Your and some others' results > are > > impressive (though I stand by my somewhat subjective impression, > > recently discussed,

that the number of people who tried the > protocol > > was quite high). Personally I think your results might result from > the > > abx only, but that's hard to prove or disprove without clinical > studies.> > > > As for whether Amy can write her own article, I don't doubt that > she > > can. What direct evidence is there that she didn't write it herself?> > > > As for the article's scientific assertions... show me the data.> > > > > > > Ken, I'm happy it's working for you. Please try to care whether > it > > > works for other people -- at least enough to keep in touch and > let us > > know how it goes for you in the future.> > > > > > - Kate> > > > > > > > Despite my improvement on the MP, I am not in any way >

recommending> > > > it for anyone else. Why not? Simple, I just don't care. It > works for> > > > me but anyone can choose any treatment they want. Whether it > works> > > > for you or not, I just don't care. I know that the Cult of Anti-> MP> > > > will claim that I am not really any better, just delusional. Or > that> > > > this was really written by committee. I just don't care. There > is> > > > too much life out there and I've wasted enough time on this > already.> >>

[Guest guest]

Again, exactly right. The methodology sucks. And the control of information sucks. The two biggest knocks, imo. A little historical perspective for those who weren't there: The main reason I got sued was because I "owned" this list's precursor (I & I 1) which allowed public discussion of the protocol...flatly not tolerated. One legal threat and a subpoenae to and we were shut down. Unjustifiably, since didn't wait to hear the outcome of the court case, which was dismissed. Fortunately, the judge's decision DID null the subpoenae for having all of my personal email records turned over to the plaintiff. Can you imagine??? What's so ironic about all that is that I was actually helped by Benicar. But that wasn't good enough becasue I couldn't do the protocol to its exact specifications. The alternative my doctor

came up with was flatly dismissed, but certainly helped me. Since negative reports or differing viewpoints are not allowed on the official protocol site, it's important that people go to uncensored environments to offer up their own actual experiences so that prospective patients can get a more balanced picture when assessing whether the protocol is appropriate for their own treatment. Mark London's analysis is a big asset in that regard, so it will be in the links section on this group's home page. Hopefully, it will (or is already) in the Immunesupport.com archives as well to bring some balance to the position papers over there. And it should be sent to some of the CFS/FMS organizations. I was asked several times to share my experience with some of those organizations, but frankly, I was so wiped out after dealing with a lawsuit (during

the holiday season), that I couldn't even think about setting myself up for another lawsuit. So a word of advice based on my experience. Tell the truth, but just remember that when you discuss the protocol to be careful with your language. You don't want to get hauled into court for "defamation" or "libel". I wasn't the first target of such a suit and probably won't be the last. But I may have been the first to win, simply because I was able to respond within 24 hours to the "emergency hearing" which would be difficult for most people. Just make sure you state clearly that you are expressing your opinions and personal experience. penny Barb Peck <egroups1bp@...> wrote: You nailed it.In the early days before there was a protocol...I was part of the inner circle (Penny was also associated in the early days).a was too- but hung in there longer ( I was openly argumentative with the group- including a for some time after I left the group, but the law suit against Penny tempered everyone involved with disagreeing with them).I did some of the abx research for that group.. and there are some things about that protocol that may be correct (I don't disagree with everything about it).. but their methodology was what SUCKED... alot was couched in scientific terms, but

NOT scientific at all..*** MY ** writings were edited (re-written by commitee).. so I know the "group' style is.. so we will never know whether Amy wrote her piece or not.. it's definitely in the 'commitee style'.In regards to the "gotta feel worse before you feel better'..They totally have bastardized what the herx really is - into twiating the definition into fitting what could be adverse reactions to drugs..Under the best conditions, sometimes herx is difficult to define.. and IMO they've blighted the term forever.In those early days- I had an adverse reaction to (full dose) Zith (biliary sludge) and I was heavily pressured (bullied IMO) to stay on it instead of go off.. of course I made my own decisions - and went off. And I left the group after those two (and other disturbing) instances.I think there's been alot of 'collateral damage' along that protocols road to the Nobel Prize... and

there'll always be new, fresh supply-'recruits' as fodder.Barb>What is most bothersome about the MP to me, is not whether it worksfor someone or not, but the unfounded scientific theories and claimson the MP web pages. One of the worst claims is that feeling worseis a good sign, and that it's not a side effect, and that it meansthat you are killing off CWD. This claim has led people to stay onthe protocol, regardless of worsening symptoms

[Guest guest]

a – I may not agree with you on some things, but I do respect

you. I would not include you in an anti-MP cult because despite all

you problems there, you still seem to keep an open mind. However,

there is a, perhaps not cult, but a fad mentality about MP bashing.

There are many who will hear no good about it no matter if turns out

to be a total cure.

Your experience is interesting. Perhaps this will only take me so

far and no further. I fully admit that is a very real possibility.

But I will only find out with time. As long as I continue to

progress, I keep going. As far as relapsing, I am chuckling over

that. I am not a fanatic type A masochist. I take frequent small

breaks as well as the occasional big break. If I couldn't see

regular improvement, I would have stopped long ago.

As for the 1,25D levels I may take you up on that. I don't have the

info right at hand, but I do know it is out there. I looked into

this before starting the MP. The big Danish study TM references

wasn't online, but I have seen it referenced elsewhere. There are

many small studies online which show very similar results. As I

recall the Mean ranged from 27-30 with a SD of 7-10. If I get

motivated I will look them up again.

-------------------------------

Kate – I guess I am guilty of a little hyperbole. I do hope everyone

seeking help gets better. But I would still hesitate to recommend

the MP except to some one I knew and was willing to keep in close

touch with. If there is actual interest, I will check in every few

months.

----------------------

Penny – What you had to go through was outrageous. But things do

change. There are doctors that are seeing multiple patients who are

trying to work out the various responses. And yes, there may need to

be more variability in drugs. But there is very good reason for

their primary 3 drug combo. People who are responding to treatment

are writing things without asking for Board approval. There has been

a paper (perhaps 2) presented in Japan by authors who never

contacted TM or the board.

-----------------------------

– I agree with you almost completely. I just have my doubts

about long term chronic illness responding to abx alone. A lot of

folks over there have tried it without the results they are seeing

on the MP. The Benicar's effect on me even before abx was startling.

It can also very noticeably affect the immune response

(immunopathology/herx). Again, it is all subjective. But this whole

damn illness is subjective, it doesn't make it untrue, just hard to

prove. And please keep posting your findings, you come up with some

good ones that I missed.

-----------------------------------

Mark – I think there are valid reasons to expect an immune response

to the death of cwd bacteria and their host cells. I know some think

that abx should have no noticeable symptoms, even with cwd. I

disagree, but not to the point of arguing about it. I do agree with

you about people who simply feel bad constantly on treatment.

Immunopathology symptoms should pulse with the abx. Mine do. How

anyone can continue without the relief of the low end of the symptom

pulse, and taking frequent breaks, I don't understand.

--------------------------------

a (again) – isn't the study you posted about beta blocker's

rather than arb's ?

From what I have seen at the MP site, it appears that there are

similar numbers posting about severe weight gain as there is about

severe weight loss. And before anyone makes silly comments about

weight loss being a benefit, it can be very frightening for people

who are not overweight to begin with. I managed to maintain pretty

well. Gained about 5lbs over the first year, and have lost 10 since

then. I will likely be taking an extended break this spring/summer

and I am hoping that increasing activity (and maybe exercise) will

be able to take more off (I could stand to drop about 30)

------------------------------------

Well, except for my update, this is the most I have posted in a

year. I had planned to tie a few striper flyes tonight, but now I

just don't feel like it. Oh well, still a few weeks to ice out.

Ken

[Guest guest]

> As for the 1,25D levels I may take you up on that. I don't have the

> info right at hand, but I do know it is out there. I looked into

> this before starting the MP. The big Danish study TM references

> wasn't online, but I have seen it referenced elsewhere. There are

> many small studies online which show very similar results. As I

> recall the Mean ranged from 27-30 with a SD of 7-10. If I get

> motivated I will look them up again.

1,25(OH)2D levels are affected differently in every condition, so

that it's impossible to make any general statement about 1,25(OH)2D

and inflammation. For example, in RA, increased disease activity

results in decreased 1,25(OH)2D levels, even though it's been proven

that TH1 1,25(OH)2D production occurs in RA. This is due to bone

loss that occurs in RA. Only in a few specific conditions has it

been found that increased disease activity coorelates with increased

1,25(OH)2D levels. In most other conditions, other factors such as

calcium metabolism and hormones will be of much greater influence on

1,25(OH)2D serum levels than TH1 generated 1,25(OH)2D.

> Mark – I think there are valid reasons to expect an immune response

> to the death of cwd bacteria and their host cells.

The medical literature does not support your claim. There is no

support in the medical literature for any reaction from any bacteria

die off, except in a true herx response, which is only known to occur

with a few specific complex bacteria. And even then, a true herx

only occurs in some people with those infections, but not everyone.

And even then it only occurs on the first dose of abx.

Also, I've seen no proof that the MP causes a significant die off of

host cells, i.e. white cells in which the CWD are supposed to live.

White cells die off all the time, so an increase in die off shouldn't

cause any herx type reaction. If there was a huge die off, perhaps

one would get a reaction, but in that case, a lab test should be able

to prove that is happening, in which case a lab test should have been

designed by now by the MP, to test for " real " reactions, in order to

distiguish them for side effects, or something else.

All abx drugs have numerous different side effects, not to mention

that some can kill off good bacteria. Feeling bad symptoms from abx

doesn't necessarily prove that such symptoms are due to the die off

of bad bacteria.

The MP states not just a few, but many unsupported claims which are

not supported by the medical literature. True science is based on

supported facts. I'm willing to perhaps believe in one or two new

medical facts. But when someone presents me with numerous ones in

order to support their theory, I'm more likely to believe that it's a

case of cognitive dissonance. - Mark

[Guest guest]

Mark, I think that Lyme or borrelia is likely to cause a Herxheimer

reaction. Since so many cfs patients are infected with borrelia they

would have a Herx. I do totally agree though that much of what the MP

atributes to herxing may be many other problems, one of which is a

bad reaction to an antibiotic or the Benicar.

This is Dr. Franco's description of a Herx. I would add that

in Lyme it would be cyclical, not constant.

6. EXPLAIN THE JARISCH HERXHEIMER REACTION.

This drug-induced flare reaction may occur within hours, the next day

or within the first weeks after the patient starts the antibiotics -

or any time there is a change in antibiotic or dosage. It is caused

by a die-off of organisms, which in turn create toxins that circulate

in the body. This will often cause a temporary worsening of symptoms.

Patients may experience a range of symptoms from mild fatigue and

sleepiness to flu-like symptoms - chills, low grade fever, night

sweats, muscle aches, aching and swollen joints, nausea, hives, skin

rashes, depression and short term memory loss. Hives and rash are

sometimes mistaken for an allergic reaction.

>

>

> > As for the 1,25D levels I may take you up on that. I don't have

the

> > info right at hand, but I do know it is out there. I looked into

> > this before starting the MP. The big Danish study TM references

> > wasn't online, but I have seen it referenced elsewhere. There are

> > many small studies online which show very similar results. As I

> > recall the Mean ranged from 27-30 with a SD of 7-10. If I get

> > motivated I will look them up again.

>

> 1,25(OH)2D levels are affected differently in every condition, so

> that it's impossible to make any general statement about 1,25(OH)2D

> and inflammation. For example, in RA, increased disease activity

> results in decreased 1,25(OH)2D levels, even though it's been

proven

> that TH1 1,25(OH)2D production occurs in RA. This is due to bone

> loss that occurs in RA. Only in a few specific conditions has it

> been found that increased disease activity coorelates with

increased

> 1,25(OH)2D levels. In most other conditions, other factors such as

> calcium metabolism and hormones will be of much greater influence

on

> 1,25(OH)2D serum levels than TH1 generated 1,25(OH)2D.

>

> > Mark – I think there are valid reasons to expect an immune

response

> > to the death of cwd bacteria and their host cells.

>

> The medical literature does not support your claim. There is no

> support in the medical literature for any reaction from any

bacteria

> die off, except in a true herx response, which is only known to

occur

> with a few specific complex bacteria. And even then, a true herx

> only occurs in some people with those infections, but not

everyone.

> And even then it only occurs on the first dose of abx.

>

> Also, I've seen no proof that the MP causes a significant die off

of

> host cells, i.e. white cells in which the CWD are supposed to

live.

> White cells die off all the time, so an increase in die off

shouldn't

> cause any herx type reaction. If there was a huge die off, perhaps

> one would get a reaction, but in that case, a lab test should be

able

> to prove that is happening, in which case a lab test should have

been

> designed by now by the MP, to test for " real " reactions, in order

to

> distiguish them for side effects, or something else.

>

> All abx drugs have numerous different side effects, not to mention

> that some can kill off good bacteria. Feeling bad symptoms from

abx

> doesn't necessarily prove that such symptoms are due to the die off

> of bad bacteria.

>

> The MP states not just a few, but many unsupported claims which are

> not supported by the medical literature. True science is based on

> supported facts. I'm willing to perhaps believe in one or two new

> medical facts. But when someone presents me with numerous ones in

> order to support their theory, I'm more likely to believe that it's

a

> case of cognitive dissonance. - Mark

>

[Guest guest]

As a consultant I always have to remind myself and others that no

circumstance you encounter springs spontaneously out of thin air.

Rather, things are the way they are, because they got that way

somehow. So if there are people who will hear no good about the MP,

you have to ask yourself, not how those people can be so closed-minded

or stupid, but rather, what exactly put that bad taste in their mouth.

It's not like the critics are mostly mainstream allopaths trying to

discredit anything that doesn't fit their world view. It isn't like

most CFS patients are so fond of their illness that they won't try

anything to get well. CFS patients don't typically give the bum's rush

to anything even remotely helpful. They are not given to "fad

mentalities" that make them inexplicably hostile to anyone trying to

help. If anything they are a little too credulous sometimes. In my

experience, the MP seems unique in soliciting this kind of reaction.

We've worked with one MD who regularly prescribes Benicar for his

patients, monitors Vit. D, and in short sees value in Marshall's

ideas. But he tailors it to each patient and if the patient does not

respond as the MP predicts, then rather than have blind faith in the

MP, he assumes the patient's body has not read Trevor's book, so to

speak, and moves on to some other modality. This is the kind of

humility and open mindedness that the MP folks seem to hate and fear so

much. This doctor, if he were to bother to share his experiences with

MP in the MP forums would probably be censured or thrown out, if not

outright sued, judging from all I've heard and observed. With an

approach like this, how will the MP ever close the feedback loop so

that it can refine and improve itself? How can it possibly assume that

it is a complete and final understanding of the problem domain? Any

time you have that kind of arrogance, it's dangerous. It's no wonder

people are wary of it.

--Bob

kjfmsa wrote:

However,

there is a, perhaps not cult, but a fad mentality about MP bashing.

There are many who will hear no good about it no matter if turns out

to be a total cure.

[Guest guest]

Well said, Bob.

If anyone would have a predeliction to resentment, it would probably

be me. But even after being sued over my views, I still tried to keep

an open mind toward a protocol that combines Antimicrobials and ARBS.

Afterall, this list is called Infection & Inflammation, and that's

what those 2 drug categories seem to impact.

However, the more research I've done, the less the MP's theories

regarding WHY these drugs work hold up.

The vitamin D issue is farfetched at best, imo. Especially after

learning that the premminent Vitamin D researcher, Dr. Norman, who is

cited in their own MP materials, said in no uncertain terms, that

there's no way the 1,25d ratio makes any sense or can be considered

accurate enough to be an indicator of inflammation.

Then there's the issue of the antibiotics chosen. Even if these are

helpful antibiotics for some, it's ridiculous to think that a certain

combo of abx will work for everyone. If it were true, there'd be no

need for sensitivity testing when developing these drugs. There'd be

no need for identifying bacteria or doing cultures and sensitivities

when people are sick in the hospital. Based on testing, my own bugs

were already resistant to 14 abx when I was first dx'd with an

infection, and all I'd ever taken was penicillin as a child. My bugs

were already super bugs before I even acquired them. Deciding to

treat with 3 drugs based on nothing but theories that they work

against all organisms, is equivalent to throwing a hail mary pass.

Plus there's the whole argument about the " danger " of ramping Benicar

up slowly because of its supposed " potentiating effects " on the

antibiotics. Again, there's no evidence. The literature doesn't

support it, and my own personal experience doesn't support it as I

took full doses (160mg) of Benicar with full doses of antibiotics,

with zero adverse effects. But diving into the protocol at 120 or

160mg of Benicar per day, had a serious, debilitating impact on me

for the first few weeks. The refusal to consider ramping up to the

higher dosages makes no sense to me.

And most disturbing to me is the fact that known side effects of

these drugs are dismissed. That should be sending red flags up all

over the place. I had a classic pseudotumor cerebri response to

minocylcine (swelling on the brain) along with a frightening thyroid

reaction. These are documented reactions to minocyline. PTC can blind

and/or kill, but despite how sick I was, I was encouraged to adjust

my dosage, take more benicar and ride it out. Thank goodness my

doctor agreed that it was hogwash. At that point, I was told to get

lost by the MP. And I continued under my doctors' care with Benicar

for 2 more years.

Then there's the censorship. Negative reports are quickly and fiercly

dealt with, patients are blamed for not doing the protocol correctly,

and opposing views by anyone, doctors included, are inadmissable and

censored. That's got to be the mother of all red flags.

Unfortunately, desperate people are often too sick to see flags.

If being concerned about these issues gives me the label of having an

anti-mp mentality, or being in a cult, then so be it. I'd rather err

on the side of caution in this case. And my life is more important

than my label.

penny

> >

> > However,

> > there is a, perhaps not cult, but a fad mentality about MP

bashing.

> > There are many who will hear no good about it no matter if turns

out

> > to be a total cure.

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

You've said it all much more eloquently than I ever could.

Since Penny and I (and I know there are others) know the rath and

repercussions of disagreeing with them.. you've summed it up nicely.

And both Penny and I have said repeatedly, that there are some things

within the protocol we agree with.. but that falls on deaf ears, and

because we don't agree faithfully, reverently, then we can't really

discuss the OTHER things we don't agree with.

Let someone actually be sued for their opinion - then maybe they'll

understand.

The old sayting " you can't understand an experience unless you

actually experience it " is true in this case.

And yes, I admit, the Bad Taste is still there.

Barb

> >

> > However,

> > there is a, perhaps not cult, but a fad mentality about MP

bashing.

> > There are many who will hear no good about it no matter if turns

out

> > to be a total cure.

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dr. Franco's one of the last people I would ever think to quote as an expert on reactions to antibiotics. People have got to get a grip on how they are misusing the word "herx". As described in Mark's earlier post, it's dangerous and can lead to unnecessary injury and death. pennypjeanneus <pj7@...> wrote: Mark, I think that Lyme or borrelia is likely to cause a Herxheimer reaction. Since so many cfs patients are infected with

borrelia they would have a Herx. I do totally agree though that much of what the MP atributes to herxing may be many other problems, one of which is a bad reaction to an antibiotic or the Benicar.This is Dr. Franco's description of a Herx. I would add that in Lyme it would be cyclical, not constant.6. EXPLAIN THE JARISCH HERXHEIMER REACTION.This drug-induced flare reaction may occur within hours, the next day or within the first weeks after the patient starts the antibiotics - or any time there is a change in antibiotic or dosage. It is caused by a die-off of organisms, which in turn create toxins that circulate in the body. This will often cause a temporary worsening of symptoms. Patients may experience a range of symptoms from mild fatigue and sleepiness to flu-like symptoms - chills, low grade fever, night sweats, muscle aches, aching and swollen joints, nausea, hives, skin rashes, depression

and short term memory loss. Hives and rash are sometimes mistaken for an allergic reaction.>> > > As for the 1,25D levels I may take you up on that. I don't have the> > info right at hand, but I do know it is out there. I looked into> > this before starting the MP. The big Danish study TM references> > wasn't online, but I have seen it referenced elsewhere. There are> > many small studies online which show very similar results. As I> > recall the Mean ranged from 27-30 with a SD of 7-10. If I get> > motivated I will look them up again.> > 1,25(OH)2D levels are affected differently in every condition, so > that it's impossible to make any general statement about 1,25(OH)2D > and

inflammation. For example, in RA, increased disease activity > results in decreased 1,25(OH)2D levels, even though it's been proven > that TH1 1,25(OH)2D production occurs in RA. This is due to bone > loss that occurs in RA. Only in a few specific conditions has it > been found that increased disease activity coorelates with increased > 1,25(OH)2D levels. In most other conditions, other factors such as > calcium metabolism and hormones will be of much greater influence on > 1,25(OH)2D serum levels than TH1 generated 1,25(OH)2D.> > > Mark – I think there are valid reasons to expect an immune response> > to the death of cwd bacteria and their host cells.> > The medical literature does not support your claim. There is no > support in the medical literature for any reaction from any bacteria > die off, except in a true herx response, which is only known

to occur > with a few specific complex bacteria. And even then, a true herx > only occurs in some people with those infections, but not everyone. > And even then it only occurs on the first dose of abx. > > Also, I've seen no proof that the MP causes a significant die off of > host cells, i.e. white cells in which the CWD are supposed to live. > White cells die off all the time, so an increase in die off shouldn't > cause any herx type reaction. If there was a huge die off, perhaps > one would get a reaction, but in that case, a lab test should be able > to prove that is happening, in which case a lab test should have been > designed by now by the MP, to test for "real" reactions, in order to > distiguish them for side effects, or something else.> > All abx drugs have numerous different side effects, not to mention > that some can kill

off good bacteria. Feeling bad symptoms from abx > doesn't necessarily prove that such symptoms are due to the die off > of bad bacteria.> > The MP states not just a few, but many unsupported claims which are > not supported by the medical literature. True science is based on > supported facts. I'm willing to perhaps believe in one or two new > medical facts. But when someone presents me with numerous ones in > order to support their theory, I'm more likely to believe that it's a > case of cognitive dissonance. - Mark>

[Guest guest]

Penny:

Herx is a term thats just been bastardized by that group.

It's ironic that I **DO** agree that some reactions by antibiotics

which are true Herx are mis read by some docs as an adverse drug

reaction

and that being said I ALSO think that most of the repeated adverse

reactions called Herx related by the users of some antiobiotics ARE

actaully having adverse drug reactions !!

It's a fact that:

If a person is lessening their gram negative bacterial load with

their antibiotic - then yes there will be die off and maybe herx..

but the assumtion HAS to be made that as the bacterial population is

reduced, that herx has to be reduced with it..

So I just don't get these repeated herx's every week, every month, it

just doesn't jive was with the accepted definition of how bacteria

live and die, and the immune systems response to that die off.

Barb

> > > As for the 1,25D levels I may take you up on that. I don't have

> the

> > > info right at hand, but I do know it is out there. I looked into

> > > this before starting the MP. The big Danish study TM references

> > > wasn't online, but I have seen it referenced elsewhere. There

are

> > > many small studies online which show very similar results. As I

> > > recall the Mean ranged from 27-30 with a SD of 7-10. If I get

> > > motivated I will look them up again.

> >

> > 1,25(OH)2D levels are affected differently in every condition, so

> > that it's impossible to make any general statement about 1,25(OH)

2D

> > and inflammation. For example, in RA, increased disease activity

> > results in decreased 1,25(OH)2D levels, even though it's been

> proven

> > that TH1 1,25(OH)2D production occurs in RA. This is due to bone

> > loss that occurs in RA. Only in a few specific conditions has it

> > been found that increased disease activity coorelates with

> increased

> > 1,25(OH)2D levels. In most other conditions, other factors such

as

> > calcium metabolism and hormones will be of much greater influence

> on

> > 1,25(OH)2D serum levels than TH1 generated 1,25(OH)2D.

> >

> > > Mark – I think there are valid reasons to expect an immune

> response

> > > to the death of cwd bacteria and their host cells.

> >

> > The medical literature does not support your claim. There is no

> > support in the medical literature for any reaction from any

> bacteria

> > die off, except in a true herx response, which is only known to

> occur

> > with a few specific complex bacteria. And even then, a true herx

> > only occurs in some people with those infections, but not

> everyone.

> > And even then it only occurs on the first dose of abx.

> >

> > Also, I've seen no proof that the MP causes a significant die off

> of

> > host cells, i.e. white cells in which the CWD are supposed to

> live.

> > White cells die off all the time, so an increase in die off

> shouldn't

> > cause any herx type reaction. If there was a huge die off,

perhaps

> > one would get a reaction, but in that case, a lab test should be

> able

> > to prove that is happening, in which case a lab test should have

> been

> > designed by now by the MP, to test for " real " reactions, in order

> to

> > distiguish them for side effects, or something else.

> >

> > All abx drugs have numerous different side effects, not to

mention

> > that some can kill off good bacteria. Feeling bad symptoms from

> abx

> > doesn't necessarily prove that such symptoms are due to the die

off

> > of bad bacteria.

> >

> > The MP states not just a few, but many unsupported claims which

are

> > not supported by the medical literature. True science is based on

> > supported facts. I'm willing to perhaps believe in one or two new

> > medical facts. But when someone presents me with numerous ones in

> > order to support their theory, I'm more likely to believe that

it's

> a

> > case of cognitive dissonance. - Mark

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Penny:

Herx is a term thats just been bastardized by that group.

It's ironic that I **DO** agree that some reactions by antibiotics

which are true Herx are mis read by some docs as an adverse drug

reaction

and that being said I ALSO think that most of the repeated adverse

reactions called Herx related by the users of some antiobiotics ARE

actaully having adverse drug reactions !!

It's a fact that:

If a person is lessening their gram negative bacterial load with

their antibiotic - then yes there will be die off and maybe herx..

but the assumtion HAS to be made that as the bacterial population is

reduced, that herx has to be reduced with it..

So I just don't get these repeated herx's every week, every month, it

just doesn't jive was with the accepted definition of how bacteria

live and die, and the immune systems response to that die off.

Barb

> > > As for the 1,25D levels I may take you up on that. I don't have

> the

> > > info right at hand, but I do know it is out there. I looked into

> > > this before starting the MP. The big Danish study TM references

> > > wasn't online, but I have seen it referenced elsewhere. There

are

> > > many small studies online which show very similar results. As I

> > > recall the Mean ranged from 27-30 with a SD of 7-10. If I get

> > > motivated I will look them up again.

> >

> > 1,25(OH)2D levels are affected differently in every condition, so

> > that it's impossible to make any general statement about 1,25(OH)

2D

> > and inflammation. For example, in RA, increased disease activity

> > results in decreased 1,25(OH)2D levels, even though it's been

> proven

> > that TH1 1,25(OH)2D production occurs in RA. This is due to bone

> > loss that occurs in RA. Only in a few specific conditions has it

> > been found that increased disease activity coorelates with

> increased

> > 1,25(OH)2D levels. In most other conditions, other factors such

as

> > calcium metabolism and hormones will be of much greater influence

> on

> > 1,25(OH)2D serum levels than TH1 generated 1,25(OH)2D.

> >

> > > Mark – I think there are valid reasons to expect an immune

> response

> > > to the death of cwd bacteria and their host cells.

> >

> > The medical literature does not support your claim. There is no

> > support in the medical literature for any reaction from any

> bacteria

> > die off, except in a true herx response, which is only known to

> occur

> > with a few specific complex bacteria. And even then, a true herx

> > only occurs in some people with those infections, but not

> everyone.

> > And even then it only occurs on the first dose of abx.

> >

> > Also, I've seen no proof that the MP causes a significant die off

> of

> > host cells, i.e. white cells in which the CWD are supposed to

> live.

> > White cells die off all the time, so an increase in die off

> shouldn't

> > cause any herx type reaction. If there was a huge die off,

perhaps

> > one would get a reaction, but in that case, a lab test should be

> able

> > to prove that is happening, in which case a lab test should have

> been

> > designed by now by the MP, to test for " real " reactions, in order

> to

> > distiguish them for side effects, or something else.

> >

> > All abx drugs have numerous different side effects, not to

mention

> > that some can kill off good bacteria. Feeling bad symptoms from

> abx

> > doesn't necessarily prove that such symptoms are due to the die

off

> > of bad bacteria.

> >

> > The MP states not just a few, but many unsupported claims which

are

> > not supported by the medical literature. True science is based on

> > supported facts. I'm willing to perhaps believe in one or two new

> > medical facts. But when someone presents me with numerous ones in

> > order to support their theory, I'm more likely to believe that

it's

> a

> > case of cognitive dissonance. - Mark

> >

>