Guest guest Posted September 18, 1999 Report Share Posted September 18, 1999 Hi , I've got a question. Do you think that the two antibiotics you have listed might be making you worse? They are not recommended for mycoplasma at all or any intracellular infections. I don't know enough about the RA treatments but I know these would be a disaster for someone like me with mycoplasma incognitus. I don't know what you have been diagnosed with our whether you have had the PCR test for mycoplasma, but maybe it is not a herx but the wrong antibiotic??????? a C. > From: " Kellis & O'Connor " <docsol@...> > > Hi, > Some time ago, there was a discussion on herxing when taking other > antibiotics. I believe Carol and someone else felt they had herxes with > cephalexin (Keflex) which I, also, experienced twice. > I am taking augmentin since Tues. night. This afternoon, I started > feeling gelled and sore, swollen, and tender. Really bad. I wish I > knew why these antibiotics do this to me. > I've been living with this for 16 years so I know it's a herx. > > NC > > > > --------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 1999 Report Share Posted September 18, 1999 a, The Keflex and Augmentin were/are taken for other infections. No connection to RA which is what I have. I find it fascinating that I do herx on other antibiotics. No question it is a herx :-) I had one herx with the first 50mg of minocycline, none with erythroymicin nor with doxy. I have not been able to have a PCR test as of yet. NC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 1999 Report Share Posted September 19, 1999 Hi, I think the fact that you herx on the other antibiotics is really amazing. I would suspect it means you have multiple infections going on at the same time. Anyone else had this experience? a C. rheumatic re:herx > From: " Kellis & O'Connor " <docsol@...> > > a, > The Keflex and Augmentin were/are taken for other infections. No > connection to RA which is what I have. I find it fascinating that I do > herx on other antibiotics. No question it is a herx :-) > I had one herx with the first 50mg of minocycline, none with > erythroymicin nor with doxy. > I have not been able to have a PCR test as of yet. > > NC > > > --------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 1999 Report Share Posted September 20, 1999 I herxed for 6 months on the doxycline, before it quit. I was about ready to stop taking it, but kept saying to myself " it's working, I'm going to get better " . Sandy On Sat, 18 Sep 1999, Kellis & O'Connor wrote: > From: " Kellis & O'Connor " <docsol@...> > > a, > The Keflex and Augmentin were/are taken for other infections. No > connection to RA which is what I have. I find it fascinating that I do > herx on other antibiotics. No question it is a herx :-) > I had one herx with the first 50mg of minocycline, none with > erythroymicin nor with doxy. > I have not been able to have a PCR test as of yet. > > NC > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sandy @}-->---- SMILE! 'Cause God thinks you're ladybug@... special... and so do I! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 1999 Report Share Posted December 10, 1999 Yes. When the antibiotic attacks the infection, toxins are released which travel around the body. The symptoms occur where the toxin activity is greatest, hence the moving symptoms. Chris. Is it possible to have a herx happen in specific parts of the body, rather than all over? Seems like since increasing my doxy (from 100mg 3xweek to 200mg 3xweek) my hands have been noticably more swollen, stiffer, and painful that ever. Has anyone else experienced this sort of thing, or should I just chalk it up as coincidence? Thanks for any info......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2001 Report Share Posted April 9, 2001 Hi Kimmie, You could definitely be experiencing a herx, which can manifest in a variety of ways, including sinus discomfort and a flu-like feeling. A herx is not uncommon with any change of medication and may even have been triggered by your reduction of metho. Just try to get as much rest as possible, eat properly and drink tons of water. If the sinus problems continue for too long, definitely mention them to your doctor just to rule out an infection. Hugs a Peden > Kimmie wrote: > > Hi all, I was wondering if everybody experiences a herx? I'm not sure > if I have or not. What I have experienced on and off is pressure in my > face and sinuses, headache, neckache, basically flu like symptoms but > not increased pain. I am also on Remicade and am wondering about the > combination of AP and remicade. My MTX dose is 7.5 mg. every 2 weeks. > I brought the dose down myself without the doctors knowledge. I would > like to drop it all together but my doctor insists that the remicade > would stop working. BTW, my doctor doesn't believe in AP but > prescribed Mino anyway, maybe to humor me? I don't know. Anyone here > with advise? > > Thanks, > Kimmie > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2002 Report Share Posted March 6, 2002 Hi Kelli, "Herx" is the shortened term for the Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction. Drs. Jarisch and Herxheimer theorized that the body reacts to the toxins released when some bacteria die off in much the same manner as it reacts to an invasion of the live bacteria. Dr. Brown (he developed the antibiotic protocol we use) blamed mycoplasma bacteria for the cause of rheumatic disease. When mycoplasma bacteria are killed off in large numbers your body can't tell if it is an invasion or a die off and it reacts in the same way it would for an invasion. Sometimes it is hard to tell if you are having a flare or a herx. Herxs will happen when you start the AP and usually any time you increase or change your dosage. A herx is the best way to tell that the antibiotic is working and it is also some of the hardest times for those going through it. My wife, Skip, had a 7 month herx after starting the AP. It is really hard to stick with the AP during those times. It has to be blind faith. Skip had been on every treatment the medical profession knew of and they almost killed her before we found the Antibiotic Protocol. She was supposed to be in a wheelchair 5 years ago. Last month we went to Nashville for the Opry and our oldest son complained that Mom was walking too fast. We both think the herxs were worth it. Here is something to think about: Why do Tetracyclines and Zithromax and some other antibiotics knock people with autoimmune diseases on their butt when it doesn't do the same to people who don't have them?? I can't even get a Doctor to answer that one. Hang in there it is well worth it. Denny and Skip RA 14 years AP 3.5 years rheumatic Herx OK, OK, I keep reading about AP, and trying to understand. Please speak in layman's terms, and tell me what is Herx? Kelli Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2002 Report Share Posted March 8, 2002 Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 10:33:25 -0500 From: " Den and Skip " <denandskip@...> Subject: Re: Herx >> Here is something to think about: Why do Tetracyclines and Zithromax and some other antibiotics knock people with autoimmune diseases on their butt when it doesn't do the same to people who don't have them?? << Your post answers the question. The Herx is a die-off reaction, nothing to die off, no reaction. Lack of a Herx in an individual does not necessarily mean there is no die-off; their system may be able to eliminate the toxins released at whatever level is occurring with aplomb. However, lack of a Herx in populations sharing the same identified disease should necessarily lead to questions about the efficacy, providing nothing is being given to mitigate the reaction. Likewise, presence of the Herx reaction in that same population should likewise lead one to believe they may be on the right track. Geoff soli Deo gloria http://www.healingyou.org/ NonRx herbals, homeopathics & supplements http://www.800-800-cruise.com/ Cruises, tours, resorts & luxury trains Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2002 Report Share Posted March 8, 2002 Geoff, Den and Skip, I have been thinking about what a Herx is. The fact that a Herx reaction can last for weeks indicates that it is more than the body's reaction to toxins released by the dying off of micoplasmas. Instead, it is a sign of battle. With the aid of antibiotics, the body will aggressively attack micoplasmas lodged in specific tissues, resulting in acute inflammation of these tissues. Luckily, the body gradually gains the upper hand, so that the inflammation and any released toxins subside, and the rheumatic disease ultimately goes into remission. Think of the antibiotics as being bombs and the micoplasmas as being Taliban fighters lodged in caves. The results of the bombing is a war zone with flames, which we experience as inflammation. If there are no micoplasmas, there is no battle to fight and hence no reaction to the antibiotics. This is also what Geoff is saying. With Methotrexate, the opposite mechanism is achieved. The body's immune system is suppressed, so that there is no battle. Like turning the countryside over to the Taliban, if that's what you want. Regards, Harald At 09:09 AM 03/08/2002 -0800, you wrote: > Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 10:33:25 -0500 > From: " Den and Skip " <denandskip@...> >Subject: Re: Herx > >Here is something to think about: Why do Tetracyclines and Zithromax and >some other antibiotics knock people with autoimmune diseases on their butt >when it doesn't do the same to people who don't have them?? > >Your post answers the question. The Herx is a die-off reaction, nothing to >die off, no reaction. Lack of a Herx in an individual does not necessarily >mean there is no die-off; their system may be able to eliminate the toxins >released at whatever level is occurring with aplomb. However, lack of a >Herx in populations sharing the same identified disease should necessarily >lead to questions about the efficacy, providing nothing is being given to >mitigate the reaction. Likewise, presence of the Herx reaction in that >same population should likewise lead one to believe they may be on the >right track. > >Geoff >soli Deo gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2002 Report Share Posted March 8, 2002 Geoff, Den and Skip, I have been thinking about what a Herx is. The fact that a Herx reaction can last for weeks indicates that it is more than the body's reaction to toxins released by the dying off of micoplasmas. Instead, it is a sign of battle. With the aid of antibiotics, the body will aggressively attack micoplasmas lodged in specific tissues, resulting in acute inflammation of these tissues. Luckily, the body gradually gains the upper hand, so that the inflammation and any released toxins subside, and the rheumatic disease ultimately goes into remission. Think of the antibiotics as being bombs and the micoplasmas as being Taliban fighters lodged in caves. The results of the bombing is a war zone with flames, which we experience as inflammation. If there are no micoplasmas, there is no battle to fight and hence no reaction to the antibiotics. This is also what Geoff is saying. With Methotrexate, the opposite mechanism is achieved. The body's immune system is suppressed, so that there is no battle. Like turning the countryside over to the Taliban, if that's what you want. Regards, Harald At 09:09 AM 03/08/2002 -0800, you wrote: > Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 10:33:25 -0500 > From: " Den and Skip " <denandskip@...> >Subject: Re: Herx > >Here is something to think about: Why do Tetracyclines and Zithromax and >some other antibiotics knock people with autoimmune diseases on their butt >when it doesn't do the same to people who don't have them?? > >Your post answers the question. The Herx is a die-off reaction, nothing to >die off, no reaction. Lack of a Herx in an individual does not necessarily >mean there is no die-off; their system may be able to eliminate the toxins >released at whatever level is occurring with aplomb. However, lack of a >Herx in populations sharing the same identified disease should necessarily >lead to questions about the efficacy, providing nothing is being given to >mitigate the reaction. Likewise, presence of the Herx reaction in that >same population should likewise lead one to believe they may be on the >right track. > >Geoff >soli Deo gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2002 Report Share Posted March 8, 2002 > >> Here is something to think about: Why do Tetracyclines and Zithromax and > some other antibiotics knock people with autoimmune diseases on their butt > when it doesn't do the same to people who don't have them?? << > > Your post answers the question. The Herx is a die-off reaction, nothing to > die off, no reaction. Lack of a Herx in an individual does not necessarily > mean there is no die-off; their system may be able to eliminate the toxins > released at whatever level is occurring with aplomb. However, lack of a > Herx in populations sharing the same identified disease should necessarily > lead to questions about the efficacy, providing nothing is being given to > mitigate the reaction. Likewise, presence of the Herx reaction in that same > population should likewise lead one to believe they may be on the right > track. Those of us that have seen both courses of treatment, AP and conventional, know that there has to be an infectious cause to rheumatic diseases. I love to ask the question above to Drs. that say the Antibiotic Protocol is quackery. I have not gotten an answer that is even close to being logical from any of them. The AP made sense to Dr. Brown 50 years ago and it makes sense today. Common sense is sometimes set aside by " Professionals " and " Experts " in order to further their own cause even though it is flawed. I laugh when I read the cause of RA as " the body mysteriously attacks itself " . Why didn't it attack itself at conception or at birth? An invasion of something that the body normally responds to with an attack makes a lot more sense. That is why antibiotics cause the herx in rheumatic patients and will eventually lead to better health. We are on the same page, Geoff. I posted the question in case any of the new subscribers would like to ask their Drs. and see what kind of a response they get. Laughing out loud in a Dr's office is permitted. Denny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2002 Report Share Posted October 27, 2002 Hi Lindy, On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 03:10 AM, purpleoranges2002 wrote: >I am hoping to start on AP if I can persuade my GP to prescribe it. Has anyone had a bad Herx reaction after starting AP? What is the best way to avoid a herx? From our FAQ at rheumatic.org/faq.htm: " Some reported sensitivities to the tetracycline drugs may be caused by the drug being introduced too rapidly and at too high a dose. A slow start, 50 mg. Monday and Friday then gradually building up to the standard dose, can often avoid this allergic reaction. " The standard dose is 100-200mg on Monday Wednesday and Friday and each patient needs to find the dose that they tolerate best. Chris. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2003 Report Share Posted December 13, 2003 Uh oh...I didn't know that. Bob or Carol, can you tell me where you saw that so I can do more research and not make anymore mistakes like this. Thanks. Kimmie rheumatic Herx > > > > Hi all. I have a question about Herxing. A couple of weeks ago I decided > to add amoxicillin to my mix, 500 mg. M,W,F. Since then I have had a > constant headache and today my left hand is flaring. I haven't had this > kind of pain for a couple of years. It reminds me of the beginning when I > first got RA. If I am herxing am I to avoid the herx by lowing dosage or do > I just sit it out and continue as I have been. Thanks for any feedback. > > > > Happy Holidays to all. > > > > Kimmie > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2003 Report Share Posted December 14, 2003 You can check drug interactions using the search machine at http://www.drugstore.com/pharmacy/drugchecker/ You just input all the medications you are taking, one by one, and then it checks for possible reactions. It also checks any possible reactions with common foods. Quite useful. Nick Re: rheumatic Herx > If I am not mistaken, penicillin and tetracyline drugs cancel each other > out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2003 Report Share Posted December 14, 2003 Thanks Ethel. Where can I get ConcenTrace ionic liquid mineral supplement? Also, when you say RealSalt does that mean something like sea salt or is it a brand of some sort? Kimmie rheumatic Herx > > > > Hi all. I have a question about Herxing. A couple of weeks ago I decided > to add amoxicillin to my mix, 500 mg. M,W,F. Since then I have had a > constant headache and today my left hand is flaring. I haven't had this > kind of pain for a couple of years. It reminds me of the beginning when I > first got RA. If I am herxing am I to avoid the herx by lowing dosage or do > I just sit it out and continue as I have been. Thanks for any feedback. > > > > Happy Holidays to all. > > > > Kimmie > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2003 Report Share Posted December 14, 2003 Thanks Nick. I'll check it out right now. Boy that Amoxy sure stirred something up. I'm still hurting. Kimmie You can check drug interactions using the search machine at http://www.drugstore.com/pharmacy/drugchecker/ You just input all the medications you are taking, one by one, and then it checks for possible reactions. It also checks any possible reactions with common foods. Quite useful. Nick Re: rheumatic Herx > If I am not mistaken, penicillin and tetracyline drugs cancel each other > out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2007 Report Share Posted February 26, 2007 >> [Ken:] Mark – I think there are valid reasons to expect an immune response to the death of cwd bacteria and their host cells. > [Mark:] The medical literature does not support your claim. There is no support in the medical literature for any reaction from any bacteria die off, except in a true herx response, which is only known to occur with a few specific complex bacteria. And even then, a true herx only occurs in some people with those infections, but not everyone. Mark, it seems to me that herxing has been reported with a variety of bacterioses. First, there's syphilis (the disease in which Herxheimer recognized the reaction). Second, I know I have read about herxing on relapsing fever (not lyme) borreliae. Third, herxing is claimed by some authors in various sepses; here is a review I haven't read: Antibiotic induced endotoxin release and clinical sepsis: a review. [11936361] That review's " Related Articles " lists inter alia: The significance of endotoxin release in experimental and clinical sepsis in surgical patients--evidence for antibiotic-induced endotoxin release? [9561376] Since sepsis usually refers to an opportunistic infection of the blood, I am pretty sure these authors are not referring to any treponemes (syphilis) or borreliae. Fourth, you can search this list for what I wrote last summer about the " reversal reaction " of lepromatous leprosy. One author I quoted seemed to think this was basically a herx. (A recent, extremely long review on leprosy, which I probably also posted here, mentioned no such likelihood.) Fifth, you can look here for Dr Wheldon's description of the " crisis " observed in untreated pneumococcal pneumonia in the pre- antibiotic era... which by the sound of it is a " herx " without drugs, the result of a wave of bactericide following onset of production of specific antibody: http://www.cpnhelp.org/after_pulse_illness Penny adds that a herx classically ought to involve a hell of a lot of bugs dying at once... you shouldn't be able to herx repeatedly. I don't completely agree. A " herx " could be based on endotoxin release (which activates the innate immune system), but I am not sure that's the only way it could happen. It seems to me that bacterial death might/should also release proteins that are read by the adaptive immune system. I have not gone into much molecular detail to evaluate the plausibility of this idea, but perhaps it could explain how one could herx again and again from very small kills of one's putative pathogen, assuming one has many specific lymphocytes against the pathogen. (This might be inconsistent with a brain-centric model of CFS - if there really are not a lot of lymphocytes in the CFS brain, a question I am not expert in.) It would be consistent with the apparantly slow kill-off and definitely slow clinical improvement seen in most of our type of patients. Basically I would emphasize my lack of knowledge whether my illness is fundamentally similar to any particular classical infectious disease, in terms of the immunopathology mechanisms. Even the classicals are very diverse: look at tertiary syphilis and tuberculoid leprosy; the bacteria are virtually undetectable and we don't really understand how the diseases work. Therefore, I don't have a strong a priori expectation of seeing this or that particular pattern/quantity of herxological suffering. I certainly agree with Barb that much or most of the time, the ascertainment of a herx is probabilistic (ie, not certain), and that a lot of people's statements about herxes are not very rigorous. Human minds (very much including my own) are rather strongly inclined toward seeing patterns and causitions that don't really exist, especially in desperate situations. I also fully agree with what Ken and Penny and others adumbrated - if you herx a whole bunch of times, it seems like you should be feeling somewhat better. Months and months of hellacious herxing without improvement, does not seem to make sense. There one zillion ways that some drug could produce a pseudo-herx, which is what I would conclude a " herx " to be it if it didn't eventually lead to some baseline improvement. > [Mark] The MP states not just a few, but many unsupported claims which are not supported by the medical literature. I definitely agree with that. On that site I have seen everything from the denial of the blood-brain barrier to the suggestion that bacteria-induced mutation is the sole plausible explanation for polymorphism of the HLA genes. These two ideas, and more, are uncomplicatedly false. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Thank you again Moonrose. I understand the reason and the process. What I don't still understand is why I have never experienced a herx while on the antibiotic therapy when others are herxing all the time. They tell me that herxing is a good thing as it shows signs that the bacteria is being killed off (thus the toxic emission!) My sign that I was getting better was that my symptoms were disappearing slowly over a period of months w/o herxing. I have been on antibiotics since 2006 and I still cannot describe what a herx feels like. No one has ever explained that to my satisfaction. Not the docs, not anyone on the board. No one! One person asked the question, " Has anyone on A/P ever not herxed? " I was the only one that replied! So what do we have that others don't or are we lacking the capacity to herx for any special reason. I have Scleroderma. She had a different disease. Maybe we will get to the bottom of this yet!----Thank you, Dolores From: moonrose2u <moonrose2u@...> Subject: rheumatic herx rheumatic Date: Saturday, January 31, 2009, 6:14 AM The " herx' situation that many of you are describing sounds like what we call 'tumor lysis syndrome' that active cancer patients get during chemo and/or radiation. As the cancerous cells and tumors are killed, they produce a toxin that the body must clear (picture pac man here) and until so, the patient will present with the same syndrome as the herx condition that I have been reading about on this list. I have seen cancer patiens become extremely ill during the tumor lysis time. Some have required an acute hospitalization and massive amounts of steroids and antiinflammatories in order to kick it. Much of the cancer chemo/rad treatments take this condition into consideration when treatments are begun, in order to not kill off the tumors immediately and overwhelm the health of immune system of the patients. K.Fielding RN-BC BS CMSRN " there are no coincidences' Remember, Ginger did everything that Fred Astaire did, but backwards and in high heels.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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