Re: Someone asked about the MP? ttn Mark

[Guest guest]

Mark, this may be a side issue but you mentioned that Benicar may

increase sensitivity. I have high insulin levels and hypoglycemia,

not yet diabetic. I also gained about 10 lbs while on high dose

Benicar. It would seem that I should have lost weight if Benicar

increased insulin sensitivity. But I know weight gain is a very

complex issue. Do you have any thoughts on this?

a Carnes

>

> While the abx may be helping people, I want to point out that

Benicar

> has multiple effects, any one of which could be of help to people.

> Increasing insulin sensitivity and reducing inflammation are the

most

> well known ones, but there are others, which I list on my recently

> updated MP web page:

>

> http://stuff.mit.edu/people/london/universe.htm

>

> Researchers are only now starting to study high doses of ARBs for

> various conditions, especially for atypical uses, such as

arthritis.

> It'll be interesting to see what they discover.

>

> What is most bothersome about the MP to me, is not whether it works

> for someone or not, but the unfounded scientific theories and

claims

> on the MP web pages. One of the worst claims is that feeling worse

> is a good sign, and that it's not a side effect, and that it means

> that you are killing off CWD. This claim has led people to stay on

> the protocol, regardless of worsening symptoms. In one case, this

> led a sarcoidosis patient to decide to ignore his doctor's advice

to

> go back on steroids, and he died.

[Guest guest]

a - Were you changing anything else while on the high dose? I.e.

a decrease in vitamin D may result in increased weight gain.

I can't find anything that links ARBs or Benicar to weight gain

(Benicar HCT might cause weight gain due to edema, but not

Benicar). On the other hand, studies on ARBs have only been done on

a few select conditions, and even then the doses are usually not very

high, so possibly some groups of people might have unusual responses

to Benicar, as is often true with any medicine. - Mark

>

> Mark, this may be a side issue but you mentioned that Benicar may

> increase sensitivity. I have high insulin levels and hypoglycemia,

> not yet diabetic. I also gained about 10 lbs while on high dose

> Benicar. It would seem that I should have lost weight if Benicar

> increased insulin sensitivity. But I know weight gain is a very

> complex issue. Do you have any thoughts on this?

>

> a Carnes

>

>

> >

> > While the abx may be helping people, I want to point out that

> Benicar

> > has multiple effects, any one of which could be of help to

people.

> > Increasing insulin sensitivity and reducing inflammation are the

> most

> > well known ones, but there are others, which I list on my

recently

> > updated MP web page:

> >

> > http://stuff.mit.edu/people/london/universe.htm

> >

> > Researchers are only now starting to study high doses of ARBs for

> > various conditions, especially for atypical uses, such as

> arthritis.

> > It'll be interesting to see what they discover.

> >

> > What is most bothersome about the MP to me, is not whether it

works

> > for someone or not, but the unfounded scientific theories and

> claims

> > on the MP web pages. One of the worst claims is that feeling

worse

> > is a good sign, and that it's not a side effect, and that it

means

> > that you are killing off CWD. This claim has led people to stay

on

> > the protocol, regardless of worsening symptoms. In one case,

this

> > led a sarcoidosis patient to decide to ignore his doctor's advice

> to

> > go back on steroids, and he died.

>

[Guest guest]

Mark, you are the master for seeing that something else MAY be going

on. Yes, I was avoiding D and my D levels were lowered somewhat.

However, I am not the only one who gained weight and it was not water

retention, sad to say. I don't think this is a problem with all

cases, but some of us it is. I must admit I was just assuming ARBs

cause this problem as my son and I do biotech research - he is the

master - and he told me, " Oh all ARBs will make you gain weight. "

Generally I tend to believe him without doing my own homework. Here

is one link I found that suggests some have trouble with ARBs and

weight gain. - a

Hypothesis: ß-Adrenergic Receptor Blockers and Weight Gain

A Systematic Analysis

Arya M. Sharma; Tobias Pischon; Hardt; Iris Kunz; Friedrich C.

Luft

From the Franz Volhard Clinic and Max Delbrück Center for Molecular

Medicine, Medical Faculty of the Charité, Humboldt University,

Berlin, Germany.

Correspondence to Arya M. Sharma, MD, Franz Volhard Clinic,

Wiltbergstrasse 50,13125, Berlin, Germany. E-mail sharma@...

One of the arguments put forward against the primary use of ß-

blockers has been concern about adverse metabolic effects, such as

unfavorable effects on lipids or insulin sensitivity. Another less-

appreciated potential drawback is their propensity to cause weight

gain in some patients. In 8 evaluable prospective randomized

controlled trials that lasted 6 months, body weight was higher in the

ß-blocker than in the control group at the end of the study. The

median difference in body weight was 1.2 kg (range -0.4 to 3.5 kg). A

regression analysis suggested that ß-blockers were associated with an

initial weight gain during the first few months. Thereafter, no

further weight gain compared with controls was apparent. There was no

relationship between demographic characteristics and changes in body

weight. Based on these observations, the first-line use of ß-blockers

in obese hypertensive patients should be reviewed. Obesity management

in overweight hypertensive patients may be more difficult in the face

of ß-blocker treatment.

Key Words: obesity • ß-blockers • body weight • hypertension, obesity

>

> a - Were you changing anything else while on the high dose?

I.e.

> a decrease in vitamin D may result in increased weight gain.

>

> I can't find anything that links ARBs or Benicar to weight gain

> (Benicar HCT might cause weight gain due to edema, but not

> Benicar). On the other hand, studies on ARBs have only been done

on

> a few select conditions, and even then the doses are usually not

very

> high, so possibly some groups of people might have unusual

responses

> to Benicar, as is often true with any medicine. - Mark

>

>

> >

> > Mark, this may be a side issue but you mentioned that Benicar may

> > increase sensitivity. I have high insulin levels and

hypoglycemia,

> > not yet diabetic. I also gained about 10 lbs while on high dose

> > Benicar. It would seem that I should have lost weight if Benicar

> > increased insulin sensitivity. But I know weight gain is a very

> > complex issue. Do you have any thoughts on this?

> >

> > a Carnes

[Guest guest]

I"ve also dropped a few pounds around the middle, since stopping Benicar. Weight gain was definitely a common topic of discussion with people on the MP who were on the list. And it was usually described as weight around the middle. I noticed it and so did quite a few others. Weight gain and muscle weakness were the most common complaints, once people got through the initial nasty adjustment period of taking such high doses of benicar. That's the other thing I really disagree with now, in hindsight, that ramping up to the large doses was imminently "dangerous". The logic just isn't there to support that, imo. pennyMark London <mrl@...> wrote: a - Were you changing anything else while on the high dose? I.e. a decrease in vitamin D may result in increased weight gain.I can't find anything that links ARBs or Benicar to weight gain (Benicar HCT might cause weight gain due to edema, but not Benicar). On the other hand, studies on ARBs have only been done on a few select conditions, and even then the doses are usually not very high, so possibly some groups of people might have unusual responses to Benicar, as is often true with any medicine. - Mark >> Mark, this may be a side

issue but you mentioned that Benicar may > increase sensitivity. I have high insulin levels and hypoglycemia, > not yet diabetic. I also gained about 10 lbs while on high dose > Benicar. It would seem that I should have lost weight if Benicar > increased insulin sensitivity. But I know weight gain is a very > complex issue. Do you have any thoughts on this?> > a Carnes> > > >> > While the abx may be helping people, I want to point out that > Benicar > > has multiple effects, any one of which could be of help to people. > > Increasing insulin sensitivity and reducing inflammation are the > most > > well known ones, but there are others, which I list on my recently > > updated MP web page:> > > > http://stuff.mit.edu/people/london/universe.htm> > > > Researchers are only now starting to study high doses of ARBs for > > various conditions, especially for atypical uses, such as > arthritis. > > It'll be interesting to see what they discover. > > > > What is most bothersome about the MP to me, is not whether it works > > for someone or not, but the unfounded scientific theories and > claims > > on the MP web pages. One of the worst claims is that feeling worse > > is a good sign, and that it's not a side effect, and that it means > > that you are killing off CWD. This claim has led people to stay on > > the protocol, regardless of worsening symptoms. In one case, this > > led a sarcoidosis patient to decide to ignore his doctor's advice

> to > > go back on steroids, and he died.>

[Guest guest]

Hi - Yes, beta blockers can cause weight gain, but ARBs are different

drugs, and so even though both are used for hypertension, they have

totally different effects.

A decrease in 25(OH)D results in increased PTH, and increased PTH has

been associated with weight gain, possibly due to increasing insulin

resistance. Thus, any good possible effects from Benicar on weight,

might be offset in some people, by the negative effects from lowered

vitamin D.

- Mark

> > >

> > > Mark, this may be a side issue but you mentioned that Benicar

may

> > > increase sensitivity. I have high insulin levels and

> hypoglycemia,

> > > not yet diabetic. I also gained about 10 lbs while on high dose

> > > Benicar. It would seem that I should have lost weight if

Benicar

> > > increased insulin sensitivity. But I know weight gain is a very

> > > complex issue. Do you have any thoughts on this?

> > >

> > > a Carnes

>

[Guest guest]

Whoa, Mark and Ken,

This is why I occasionally have to eat crow - failed to make the

distinction between beta blockers and ARBs. Yikes.

a

>

> Hi - Yes, beta blockers can cause weight gain, but ARBs are

different

> drugs, and so even though both are used for hypertension, they have

> totally different effects.

>

> A decrease in 25(OH)D results in increased PTH, and increased PTH

has

> been associated with weight gain, possibly due to increasing

insulin

> resistance. Thus, any good possible effects from Benicar on

weight,

> might be offset in some people, by the negative effects from

lowered

> vitamin D.

>

> - Mark

>

>

> > > >

> > > > Mark, this may be a side issue but you mentioned that Benicar

> may

> > > > increase sensitivity. I have high insulin levels and

> > hypoglycemia,

> > > > not yet diabetic. I also gained about 10 lbs while on high

dose

> > > > Benicar. It would seem that I should have lost weight if

> Benicar

> > > > increased insulin sensitivity. But I know weight gain is a

very

> > > > complex issue. Do you have any thoughts on this?

> > > >

> > > > a Carnes

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I realize my study I quoted was for the wrong family of drugs.

However, I still think there is evidence of problems with ARBs and

weight gain for SOME patients. Here is the info from Ken Lassesen's

site.

http://www.lassesen.com/cfids/supplements/benicar.htm

Same Family of Drugs

Other drugs that are angiotensin II inhibitors/blockers in the same

family (note the " sartan " ) - often they are prescribed with

Hydrochlorothiazide or includes it:

losartan (Cozaar) - Weight gain reported

valsartan

irbesartan (Avapro)

candesartan - Weight gain reported

telmisartan

eprosartan

Differences occurs between these drugs with inflammation

Many CFIDS patients report 5-10 lbs per month weight gain on this

medicine. This is a common problem with Antihypertensive

Medications . It has been suggested that it may be a result of:

reduction in basal metabolic rate,

reduction in the thermogenic response to meals,

increased insulin resistance, and

inhibition of lipolysis.

Irbesartan - " weight ... showed trends for improvement "

[Guest guest]

Yes, I've read Ken's web page, but he doesn't specify any reference

which states that weight gain has been shown to occur specifically

with Benicar (the non HCT type), or even generally with ARBs. Since

every ARB has different effects, it is possible that weight gain may

occur in some ARBs (as he claims), but that doesn't necessarily mean

it occurs in all of them.

>

> I realize my study I quoted was for the wrong family of drugs.

> However, I still think there is evidence of problems with ARBs and

> weight gain for SOME patients. Here is the info from Ken Lassesen's

> site.

>

> http://www.lassesen.com/cfids/supplements/benicar.htm

> Same Family of Drugs

> Other drugs that are angiotensin II inhibitors/blockers in the same

> family (note the " sartan " ) - often they are prescribed with

> Hydrochlorothiazide or includes it:

>

> losartan (Cozaar) - Weight gain reported

> valsartan

> irbesartan (Avapro)

> candesartan - Weight gain reported

> telmisartan

> eprosartan

> Differences occurs between these drugs with inflammation

>

> Many CFIDS patients report 5-10 lbs per month weight gain on this

> medicine. This is a common problem with Antihypertensive

> Medications . It has been suggested that it may be a result of:

>

> reduction in basal metabolic rate,

> reduction in the thermogenic response to meals,

> increased insulin resistance, and

> inhibition of lipolysis.

> Irbesartan - " weight ... showed trends for improvement "

>

[Guest guest]

Mark

Forget what the literature by the manufacturer claims, READ PEOPLE " S

TESTIMONIES. I found that looking at irbesartin and reading people's

testimonies many gained large amounts of weight, and many gained

hefty pain problems. The manufacturer doesn't have many claims, only

the bit about lung infections are increased.By the way thru many

years of suffering/HERXING (imbecile iodeology) my aunty steadily

gets worse and worse... The rotund one is still herxing his fat ass

off I'm sure.

tony

-- In infections , " Mark London "

<mrl@...> wrote:

>

> a - Were you changing anything else while on the high dose?

I.e.

> a decrease in vitamin D may result in increased weight gain.

>

> I can't find anything that links ARBs or Benicar to weight gain

> (Benicar HCT might cause weight gain due to edema, but not

> Benicar). On the other hand, studies on ARBs have only been done

on

> a few select conditions, and even then the doses are usually not

very

> high, so possibly some groups of people might have unusual

responses

> to Benicar, as is often true with any medicine. - Mark

>

>

> >

> > Mark, this may be a side issue but you mentioned that Benicar may

> > increase sensitivity. I have high insulin levels and

hypoglycemia,

> > not yet diabetic. I also gained about 10 lbs while on high dose

> > Benicar. It would seem that I should have lost weight if Benicar

> > increased insulin sensitivity. But I know weight gain is a very

> > complex issue. Do you have any thoughts on this?

> >

> > a Carnes

> >

> >

> > >

> > > While the abx may be helping people, I want to point out that

> > Benicar

> > > has multiple effects, any one of which could be of help to

> people.

> > > Increasing insulin sensitivity and reducing inflammation are

the

> > most

> > > well known ones, but there are others, which I list on my

> recently

> > > updated MP web page:

> > >

> > > http://stuff.mit.edu/people/london/universe.htm

> > >

> > > Researchers are only now starting to study high doses of ARBs

for

> > > various conditions, especially for atypical uses, such as

> > arthritis.

> > > It'll be interesting to see what they discover.

> > >

> > > What is most bothersome about the MP to me, is not whether it

> works

> > > for someone or not, but the unfounded scientific theories and

> > claims

> > > on the MP web pages. One of the worst claims is that feeling

> worse

> > > is a good sign, and that it's not a side effect, and that it

> means

> > > that you are killing off CWD. This claim has led people to

stay

> on

> > > the protocol, regardless of worsening symptoms. In one case,

> this

> > > led a sarcoidosis patient to decide to ignore his doctor's

advice

> > to

> > > go back on steroids, and he died.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hmmm, I don't remember the increased lung infection risk. Kind of makes sense, because Benicar made me cough all the time the first couple of months, especially when I lay on my side. It was very annoying. Were old bugs activated? I was frequently sick with bronchitis and pneumonia as a child, but my lungs have been good as an adult. What I've noticed about most of these infections, is that the body does its best to try to wall them off, isolate them. Some just don't cooperate as well as others. penny dumbaussie2000 <dumbaussie2000@...> wrote: MarkForget what the literature by the manufacturer claims, READ PEOPLE"S TESTIMONIES. I found that looking at irbesartin and reading people's testimonies many gained large amounts of weight, and many gained hefty pain problems. The manufacturer doesn't have many claims, only the bit about lung infections are increased.By the way thru many years of suffering/HERXING (imbecile iodeology) my aunty steadily gets worse and worse... The rotund one is still herxing his fat ass off I'm sure.tony-- In infections , "Mark London" <mrl@...> wrote:>> a - Were you changing anything else while on the high dose? I.e. > a decrease in vitamin D may result in increased weight gain.>

> I can't find anything that links ARBs or Benicar to weight gain > (Benicar HCT might cause weight gain due to edema, but not > Benicar). On the other hand, studies on ARBs have only been done on > a few select conditions, and even then the doses are usually not very > high, so possibly some groups of people might have unusual responses > to Benicar, as is often true with any medicine. - Mark > > > >> > Mark, this may be a side issue but you mentioned that Benicar may > > increase sensitivity. I have high insulin levels and hypoglycemia, > > not yet diabetic. I also gained about 10 lbs while on high dose > > Benicar. It would seem that I should have lost weight if Benicar > >

increased insulin sensitivity. But I know weight gain is a very > > complex issue. Do you have any thoughts on this?> > > > a Carnes> > > > > > >> > > While the abx may be helping people, I want to point out that > > Benicar > > > has multiple effects, any one of which could be of help to > people. > > > Increasing insulin sensitivity and reducing inflammation are the > > most > > > well known ones, but there are others, which I list on my > recently > > > updated MP web page:> > > > > > http://stuff.mit.edu/people/london/universe.htm> > > > > > Researchers are only now starting to study high doses of ARBs for > > > various conditions, especially for atypical

uses, such as > > arthritis. > > > It'll be interesting to see what they discover. > > > > > > What is most bothersome about the MP to me, is not whether it > works > > > for someone or not, but the unfounded scientific theories and > > claims > > > on the MP web pages. One of the worst claims is that feeling > worse > > > is a good sign, and that it's not a side effect, and that it > means > > > that you are killing off CWD. This claim has led people to stay > on > > > the protocol, regardless of worsening symptoms. In one case, > this > > > led a sarcoidosis patient to decide to ignore his doctor's advice > > to > > > go back on steroids, and he died.> >>