Re: Is there a virus going on????

[Guest guest]

But why does almost everyone completely disregard the evolutionary process of microorganisms?... which seems to be much faster than ours, by the way. I'm not saying we're not doing a lot of things wrong when it comes to our own bodies. For one thing, we're helping these monster bugs get stronger by constantly pumping antibiotics into our livestock and agriculture. But people are so single minded on this issue that it's kind of mind boggling. Everyone's so obsessed with their own bodies, they're not paying any attention to the rest of the world. It's true that the human species tends to be very self absorbed, but the self obsession in this case is almost beyond belief. If we have a major flaw, I think maybe that's it. penny Windsor <rwindsor@...> wrote: Dear Penny Perhaps "Nature, red in tooth and claw" is having a little evolutionary fun. In reality, so far, humans look like being one of the less persistent species to have evolved on this planet. If you are sufficiently dedicated and are able to wade through the 99% of Sturgeonal data to find the remaining 1% which may have validity, you may come to the conclusion that we are eating ourselves to death as a species. When you compare the nutritional

balance of an historical Australian Aboriginal diet with some 6000 regularly consumed items with a modern diet comprising less than 20, you may assume there is little leeway to make up micronutrient shortfalls. I think that , here, Rich might be digging in the right patch of ground.(Look at Harold 's stuff) If you then look at modern agriculture, you will find that all emphasis on nutritional quality has been subjugated by cosmetic appearance.. If it is true "You are what you eat" then we are well on the way out backwards. As the immune system is very effectively regulated by nutritional status, a hard look at the basics of nutrition would show a correlation between depauperate diet and disrupted immune function. Darwin may not have been completely right but as "nature abhors a vacuum" , as new ecological niches appear,

newly mutated or derived organisms will seek to occupy those niches. Thus, if the immune system is less efficient at repelling invaders, the invaders, in their pursuit of a niche, become more adept at securing a viable environment. There is no apportionment of "fault" in this system. Just cause and effect. Regards R Re: [infections] Re: Is there a virus going on???? I'm not sure what point rwindsor is trying to make exactly. If a viral cause could be pinpointed and I knew there was a treatment for it, seems like it would make sense to get tested. But personally, I KNOW I have bacteria in my bone that make me ill. They've been identifitied and so have the drugs they're resistant to and the drugs

that kill them. Killing a good amount of them always results in my improvement. For me, a viral cause doesn't add up. But it might for someone else. We know viruses can make people very sick. I just have too much evidence in my own case to support a bacterial cause. penny pjeanneus <pj7@...> wrote: Okay, guys, you know me. I will ask the simple, stupid sixth grade questions. Why get tested for viruses when you know you have several severe bacteria - 2 mycoplasmas, borrelia, babesia?What if you just had a lumbar puncture, tested for most things known to man, and all negative? Should you still get tested for viruses?What if you injected Zadaxin for six months and a lot of money WITH NO NOTICABLE IMPROVEMENT AT

ALL?K.I.S.S.PJ> >> > > > >> 6a and cfs: incidence 400/100,000> now believed subsets of cfs have active hhv6a infection > patnaik, et al 1995, ablashi et al 2000> pcr data show 35% of cfs pts w cognitive disorders have 6a active> although frequency detected is low due to inaccuracy of the pcr assay;> all + csf samples with hhv6 done in usa were 6a+> majority of plasma samples by pcr or taqman assay were 6a+> diluca study 1995 showed all his cfs pts were 6a+ > "the specific serological assays to detect variant-specific > antibodies and more sensitive molecular probes for PCR would be > helpful in strengthening the association of HHV-6A and the >

pathogenesis of CFS". > These assays will probably come from the early IE genes which differ > between 6b and a, and should be available in the near future i would > think. Testing for 6a is being provided by Redlabs (recommended by > hhv-6 foundation, and wisconsin lab, knox/carrigan with dual nested > PCR test seems the most sensitive to pick it up). > > Your choice of antivirals is vgc=valgancyclovir=valcyte= Montoya > protocol (ebv and 6b > 1:320) or cidofavir (which has more toxicity, > renal etc.)...these are the main guys. Sad thing is the people that > need to read this probably won't be able to...cognitive > deficits/confusion weigh heavily in the choice to go on these along > with the labs. If your ebv and 6b are up and fairly severe > cognitive= valcyte study. Roche has a pt assistance program for > those who can't afford it. cheapest source

= canadadrugs.com > 1400, 2000+/mo in US. 450 mg twice day, inducti on of 3 day for 7-10 > days, monitor cbc, ptlt, alt/ast - main side effect bone marrow > suppression. never heard of it yet, an d wouldn't let this stop me > from going on it. i take it. better. > > from HHV-6 2nd ed. Krueger & Ablashi.> Eat more valcyte.> Not for everybody...but there are definitely subsets.> more to come...>

[Guest guest]

Hi PJ (what is gas-lighting? If it's a bad thing, sorry, you my

friend honey).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gerhard Krueger and Dharam Ablashi <---(of HHV-6 Foundation)

Human Herpesvirus-6

Second Edition

Gerneral Virology, Epidemiology and Clinical Pathology

Perspectives in Medical Virology, 12

Elsevier

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Incredible stuff. There are many questioning if 6a is the guy. I am

coming to believe...as you know i took valcyte in '01 when it first

became available for about 6 months (probably good thing i

did)...sleep came back without meds...long story...saw id guy in '02

who made me feel very stupid about taking it...well it comes full

circle now with Roche, Montoya, the Foundation and valcyte. I have

all the Canadian criteria and " the real deal " . Went through the hot

flashes, sweats etc., severe cognitive word blocking, swollen nodes,

neuro symptoms on and on. I have no doubt some people may be lyme,

but some are definitely viral subset; then throw in the re-activators

after immune suppression. Just call it SCID (like SCID mice). ha.

Some are even arguing HIV- and will post some links which get off

into the far end of the spectrum for those inclined.

I am reading this text and would hope others who have the energy and

time would take a look, very readable although technical (not as

rough as wading through the KdM book " biological basis of CFS " ...

Is there a virus going around? Definitely. I have no question. No

one can argue we are dealing with a profound alteration of the immune

system here...think we need more people to get tested for 6a either

through RedLabs USA or the wisconsin lab. Will post some links for

those interested. 6a is a monster... it remains to be seen the route

of transmission, though like 6b i think harder to transmit via saliva

but has been found in cervical samples, so that becomes scary

proposition. If you have this, you KNOW it. One day lazarus will

awaken. (if a day is a thousand years, hopefully this doesn't become

a 4,000 year proposition).

Mike

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Mike, for reposting the info on HHV6a. Gaslighting is where

you try to make someone think they are losing their mind. I couldn't

remember you mentioning a book. Got it now.

a Carnes

> Hi PJ (what is gas-lighting? If it's a bad thing, sorry, you my

> friend honey).

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> Gerhard Krueger and Dharam Ablashi <---(of HHV-6 Foundation)

> Human Herpesvirus-6

> Second Edition

> Gerneral Virology, Epidemiology and Clinical Pathology

> Perspectives in Medical Virology, 12

> Elsevier

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> Incredible stuff. There are many questioning if 6a is the guy. I

am

> coming to believe...as you know i took valcyte in '01 when it first

> became available for about 6 months (probably good thing i

> did)...sleep came back without meds...long story...saw id guy

in '02

> who made me feel very stupid about taking it...well it comes full

> circle now with Roche, Montoya, the Foundation and valcyte. I have

> all the Canadian criteria and " the real deal " . Went through the

hot

> flashes, sweats etc., severe cognitive word blocking, swollen

nodes,

> neuro symptoms on and on. I have no doubt some people may be lyme,

> but some are definitely viral subset; then throw in the re-

activators

> after immune suppression. Just call it SCID (like SCID mice). ha.

> Some are even arguing HIV- and will post some links which get off

> into the far end of the spectrum for those inclined.

>

> I am reading this text and would hope others who have the energy

and

> time would take a look, very readable although technical (not as

> rough as wading through the KdM book " biological basis of CFS " ...

>

> Is there a virus going around? Definitely. I have no question.

No

> one can argue we are dealing with a profound alteration of the

immune

> system here...think we need more people to get tested for 6a either

> through RedLabs USA or the wisconsin lab. Will post some links for

> those interested. 6a is a monster... it remains to be seen the

route

> of transmission, though like 6b i think harder to transmit via

saliva

> but has been found in cervical samples, so that becomes scary

> proposition. If you have this, you KNOW it. One day lazarus will

> awaken. (if a day is a thousand years, hopefully this doesn't

become

> a 4,000 year proposition).

> Mike

>

[Guest guest]

Penny

Again this is such a freakin stupid arguement.. If you went back and

studied all the ilnesses that have taken a major toll on mankined in

the last century the experts will tell you a healthy immune system is

more likeley to get you into trouble.The actual immune system is

hijacked and used to propogate many ilnesses. This is something

anyone in the know can tell you about...ask someone from the CDC or

world health organisation to see if this is or is not fact so that we

can put this silly idea to bed... I actually PUKE whenever I read

that you gonna get your immune system right..

> > > >

> > 6a and cfs: incidence 400/100,000

> > now believed subsets of cfs have active hhv6a infection

> > patnaik, et al 1995, ablashi et al 2000

> > pcr data show 35% of cfs pts w cognitive disorders have 6a active

> > although frequency detected is low due to inaccuracy of the pcr

> assay;

> > all + csf samples with hhv6 done in usa were 6a+

> > majority of plasma samples by pcr or taqman assay were 6a+

> > diluca study 1995 showed all his cfs pts were 6a+

> > " the specific serological assays to detect variant-specific

> > antibodies and more sensitive molecular probes for PCR would be

> > helpful in strengthening the association of HHV-6A and the

> > pathogenesis of CFS " .

> > These assays will probably come from the early IE genes which

> differ

> > between 6b and a, and should be available in the near future i

> would

> > think. Testing for 6a is being provided by Redlabs (recommended

by

> > hhv-6 foundation, and wisconsin lab, knox/carrigan with dual

nested

> > PCR test seems the most sensitive to pick it up).

> >

> > Your choice of antivirals is vgc=valgancyclovir=valcyte= Montoya

> > protocol (ebv and 6b > 1:320) or cidofavir (which has more

> toxicity,

> > renal etc.)...these are the main guys. Sad thing is the people

> that

> > need to read this probably won't be able to...cognitive

> > deficits/confusion weigh heavily in the choice to go on these

along

> > with the labs. If your ebv and 6b are up and fairly severe

> > cognitive= valcyte study. Roche has a pt assistance program for

> > those who can't afford it. cheapest source = canadadrugs.com

> > 1400, 2000+/mo in US. 450 mg twice day, inducti on of 3 day for 7-

> 10

> > days, monitor cbc, ptlt, alt/ast - main side effect bone marrow

> > suppression. never heard of it yet, an d wouldn't let this stop

me

> > from going on it. i take it. better.

> >

> > from HHV-6 2nd ed. Krueger & Ablashi.

> > Eat more valcyte.

> > Not for everybody...but there are definitely subsets.

> > more to come...

> >

>

[Guest guest]

On Mar 24, 2007, at 2:08 AM, Penny Houle wrote:

> Why is the body always at fault in a pwc and not the pathogen?

Fault is irrelevant (sorry -- I've been watching Star Trek Voyager

episodes). Seriously, we just all want to get better. So it doesn't

make sense to ignore possible vulnerabilities of your own body if

there might be a way to improve your situation by understanding them.

If becoming outraged when people suggest that your body may have a

flaw keeps you from looking at information that might help, I think

it would make more sense to keep an open mind. Maybe your situation

is obvious to you and you don't need to keep an open mind in this

area, but I sense that I do.

- Kate

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Your ideas are interesting.

I'm targeting/treating the neurological side(as well as abx) and note a

continues improvement.

When I improve neurological the body way of handling things are improved.

I believe in thinking systemic and that treatments must target all

aspects of dysfunctions not in terms

of its a virus or its a bacteria, It's both viruses and bacterias and

also neurological and endocrine.

Take a look at what pain is and what it results in.

The response from the body to normal stimuli is not normal.(A

dysfunctional control system).

/Per

Windsor wrote:

> Dear Penny

> Illness behaviour is the description of the bodies innate response to

> pathological challenge, not a " psychosocial construct " that the

> Wessellys of this world infer when talking about CBT etc.

> In this light, illness behaviour is to do with the bodies changing

> immune response to the pathogens changing evasive response (among

> other things). These responses in the human body appear to be

> modulated by an, as yet, poorly recognised and undescribed ,

> neurological mechanism.

> Best I can do for the moment.

> Regards

> R

>

>

> * Re: [infections] Re: Is there a virus

> going on????

>

> Illness behavior?

>

> While you're at it, be sure to study the hardiness of organisms

> and how they can build resistance to whatever attacks them.

>

> penny

>

>

>

> */ Windsor <rwindsor@...

> <mailto:rwindsor@...>>/* wrote:

>

> Dear Penny

> The point I was attempting to make was both bacteria and

> viruses lead to CFS (Lloyd's Dubbo study) with equal

> frequency. This leads one to believe that the pathogen is not

> as important as the genetic predisposition and environment.

> When I am old and grey and have managed to read a few more

> papers I will spring apon you all , my new theories, but until

> then, lets just say, Rickettsias and Lyme are associated with

> the onset of my CFS, Epstein Barr with the consolidation and

> maintenance and tick toxins with relapses.

> Underlying all this is a neurological process which, at this

> stage, I cannot explain , but seems to be a marker for illness

> behaviour.

> Regards

> Windsor

>

--

Per Sjöholm

Stockholm, Sweden

[Guest guest]

I HAVE an open mind. Hence this list. The people who don't are the ones who NEVER look at all the different kinds of bugs out there, know NOTHING about the bugs (except lyme), and spend all their MYOPIC attention on their own immune systems. It's driving me nuts that no one (other than a few here on this list) wants to look at anything else and as a result people just get sicker as the bugs get stronger and have their way with us, and the CDC is let off the hook. Sorry, but the crowd/mob mentality is usually wrong! I just wish people could expand their vision a tiny bit; just enough to seriously consider the bugs they're fighting, rather than focusing on the fighting alone. It's like shadow boxing or training in kung fu to fight a completely unknown alien enemy from outer space which has abilities we know nothing about.

It's such a monumental lopsided endeavor being pursued by our community that it makes this whole thing seem like a huge waste of time some times. At least for those who need help right now. It may be good enough for government as the old saying goes. It's not good enough for me. And until other people start feeling the same way, we're going to continue to waste our time looking in the wrong places and keeping the heat off the CDC and the government who don't want to acknowledge the serious problem treatment resistant organisms are and the resulting chronic, infectious disease that's spreading through our country. penny Kate <KateDunlay@...> wrote: On Mar 24, 2007, at 2:08 AM, Penny Houle wrote:> Why is the body always at fault in a pwc and not the pathogen?Fault is irrelevant (sorry -- I've been watching Star Trek Voyager episodes). Seriously, we just all want to get better. So it doesn't make sense to ignore possible vulnerabilities of your own body if there might be a way to improve your situation by understanding them. If becoming outraged when people suggest that your body may have a flaw keeps you from looking at information that might help, I think it would make more sense to keep an open mind. Maybe your situation is obvious to you and you don't need to keep an open mind in this area, but I sense

that I do.- Kate