Re: United Statesian (was Re: RE:)

[Guest guest]

I " m wondering if that's what a lot of people really mean when they say

they're " proud " to be an American, that they're happy to be American.

Norah

>

> Reply-To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 13:31:44 -0700

> To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Subject: United Statesian (was Re: RE:)

>

> I'm glad I live in the United States. There

> are many beautiful places in the world that I'd love to visit, but I'm

> pleased that an accident of birth caused me to live in the U.S.

[Guest guest]

At 12:55 PM 1/18/03 -0800, Cerulean wrote:

>> -------On another note, back when you used to see

>T-shirts that said " It's a Black Thing, You Wouldn't

>Understand " , I was tempted to have one made that said,

> " It's a BiRacial Thing, and None-a-Y'all Get It! "

I wanted to wear one that said " It's a Caucasian Concept, You Wouldn't

Comprehend. "

I lived in a very black part of town, though, and valued my life too much

to risk it.

I already got evil looks and comments for being a white person wearing a

Luther King t-shirt.

Sometimes I just don't understand things and don't believe I ever will.

That was one of those things.

[Guest guest]

That doesn't make sense to me either!

Norah

>

> Reply-To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 14:05:30 -0700

> To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Subject: Re: United Statesian (was Re: RE:)

>

> I already got evil looks and comments for being a white person wearing a

> Luther King t-shirt.

> Sometimes I just don't understand things and don't believe I ever will.

> That was one of those things.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sparrow wrote:

>In my twenties, I made a big deal out of being called a World Citizen

>rather than an American Citizen but I don't do that any more because I

>don't want to give the false impression that I'm disgusted to live in the

>United States because I'm not. I'm glad I live in the United States. There

>are many beautiful places in the world that I'd love to visit, but I'm

>pleased that an accident of birth caused me to live in the U.S.

I feel (and felt) the same. In 1967 or '68, I tried to

renounce my U.S. citizenship because I disagreed so

intensely with the government's policies in SE Asia.

When I did that, I in no way thought of it as separating

myself from the country or the people here, it was just

a way to separate myself decisively from the government.

I wasn't allowed to give up my citizenship anyway,

because (I was told) one may renounce one's U.S.

citizenship only in time of war. And in 1967/'68, the

theory was that the U.S. was not at war. Riiiiiggghhht.

I just heard on NPR that some of the people

demonstrating against war in Washington, D.C. today

marched to the Navy yard and tried to get in to search

for weapons of mass destruction. :-)

Jane

[Guest guest]

At 04:41 PM 1/18/03 -0800, Jane Meyerding wrote:

>I wasn't allowed to give up my citizenship anyway,

>because (I was told) one may renounce one's U.S.

>citizenship only in time of war. And in 1967/'68, the

>theory was that the U.S. was not at war. Riiiiiggghhht.

They've changed a lot of that stuff (partly in response to Vietnam) and now

a person can renounce their citizenship at any time.

[Guest guest]

At 12:40 PM 1/18/03 -0800, Norah Willett wrote:

>I " m wondering if that's what a lot of people really mean when they say

>they're " proud " to be an American, that they're happy to be American.

Logically, it's not much different from " Autistic Pride, " a term I've seen

here and there online.

What is autistic pride? It is a sense of self-worth, being happy to have an

autistic brain, supporting the precepts of autistic culture, solidarity

with other autistic people and so on.

We no more " achieved " autism than someone born in the United States

" achieved " being an American. We were born into it -- it just happened to us.

Being proud to be an American is not that different. It is a sense of

self-worth, being happy to have been born in the United States of America,

supporting the precepts upon which the country was founded, solidarity with

other U.S. citizens and so on.

[Guest guest]

Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 4:05 PM

> At 12:55 PM 1/18/03 -0800, Cerulean wrote:

>

> >> -------On another note, back when you used to see

> >T-shirts that said " It's a Black Thing, You Wouldn't

> >Understand " , I was tempted to have one made that said,

> > " It's a BiRacial Thing, and None-a-Y'all Get It! "

>

> I wanted to wear one that said " It's a Caucasian Concept, You Wouldn't

> Comprehend. "

> I lived in a very black part of town, though, and valued my life too much

> to risk it.

>

> I already got evil looks and comments for being a white person wearing a

> Luther King t-shirt.

> Sometimes I just don't understand things and don't believe I ever will.

> That was one of those things.

>

I've finally come to the conclusion that it's okay to SAY that all people

are basically the same, as long as you don't actually believe it. After

all, caucasians are currently the lowest lifeform, and we should accept that

fact and behave accordingly. I've very rarely actually met people who truly

seem to believe that " people are people " , even when they say that they think

that. You're right...it's confusing.

[Guest guest]

--- Rakus wrote:

>

> I've finally come to the conclusion that it's okay

> to SAY that all people

> are basically the same, as long as you don't

> actually believe it. After

> all, caucasians are currently the lowest lifeform,

> and we should accept that

> fact and behave accordingly. I've very rarely

> actually met people who truly

> seem to believe that " people are people " , even when

> they say that they think

> that. You're right...it's confusing.

>

>

---------I've never had 'white guilt', I like what I

like because I like it.

Last summer during an argument, Carl said to

me, " Reggae is for black people, not white women. " I

said to him, " That's the stupidest thing that could

ever come out of your mouth. Listen to the lyrics,

its for the spirit of whoever it touches and moves. "

There is a large African population in my

community, and I have numerous friends from Malawi and

Kenya. It is interesting that many of them have worst

prejudice against american blacks than some whites do.

Last night a friend from Malawi was over and

we all watched some videos, one was " Undercover

Brother " , which was hysterical in its poking fun at

stereotypes of both blacks and caucasians. There was

a lot of it that he did not comprehend, though, and I

had to explain. I find it interesting to learn about

these different thoughts on race from blacks who

originate from outside of the U.S.

Nanne

P.S. I used to have this very 'liberal' female friend

who is no longer my friend, b/c she got terribly

offended when I informed her that a particular black

person she admired was a thief. I do not and have

never believed in tippy-toeing around racial issues on

eggshells. I will not hesitate to blast some asshole

white person for being racist, but neither will I ever

'admire' someone for their 'blackness' just b/c they

are black, but a big asshole to boot.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

At 11:49 AM 1/19/03 -0500, Rakus wrote:

>I've finally come to the conclusion that it's okay to SAY that all people

>are basically the same, as long as you don't actually believe it. After

>all, caucasians are currently the lowest lifeform, and we should accept that

>fact and behave accordingly. I've very rarely actually met people who truly

>seem to believe that " people are people " , even when they say that they think

>that. You're right...it's confusing.

But at the same time, people *aren't* the same. (basically the same, yes.

*the* same, no.)

One thing that bugs me is when people (usually white people) say they are

" colorblind " and don't see race. Race (and the cultures that surround it)

is a part of who people are. It's like if someone said they were

" neuro-blind " and didn't see autism. I don't *want* to be treated like a

neurotypical! I don't want to be prejudiced against, but I don't want to

have my differences ignored.

For a long time, I thought I must be a terrible racist because I couldn't

ignore the fact that black people are various shades of brown, all much

darker than my skin. I couldn't ignore the fact that most of the black

people I was around smelled different from the white people (I've since

learned that's mostly because of different hair products.) I couldn't

ignore the fact that black hair was different from white hair. I couldn't

ignore the fact that a black accent was usually different from a white

accent. And since I grew up with a father who is one of those " let's send

them back to Africa " racists, I assumed that I, too, must be a racist

without knowing it and that it must be so ingrained in me that I could

never get rid of it.

Then one day I realized, " duh! of course I notice the difference because

there *are* differences! " I htought about it some more and realized that

there was never a time when I didn't notice one particular woman's

beautiful red hair. Or a man I knew had beautiful ice-blue eyes like a

husky dog and I never talked to him without noticing his eye color. So why

was I so hung-up about noticing that the girl in my class had skin like

coffee with two creams in it or that the man my friend was dating had hair

that looked so much like sheep wool I wanted to touch it? One day I got up

the nerve to ask if it was okay to touch his hair and he said, " sure,

go for it. " It was so soft! Not quite like a sheep but very very nice to

touch. I was twenty-seven years old and I had never touched a black person

before.

Touching ' hair made me realize just how afraid I had been up to that

point. I wasn't afraid of black people, I was afraid that I was prejudiced

against black people and that if I spent too much time around black people

I would accidentally reveal my prejudice by saying something my father used

to say, something that was the wrong thing to say but that I dind't know

because I grew up hearing it. I think I probably also had a lot of a

strange sort of feeling mixed in -- not quite guilt, but maybe fear that I

would be seen to *not* feel guilty? I had noticed what you say -- that

caucasians is the least politically correct race to be -- but couldn't

manage to feel guilty about being white. I've never enslaved anyone. I've

never told someone they couldn't go to school. I've never made someone

drink out of a different water fountain. Why should I feel guilty about

being white? Who do I oppress (other than maybe myself sometimes. LOL)

I'm probably rambling now, but race has been a big issue to me for most of

my life and the ironic thing is that it really wasn't as big of an issue as

I was making it out to be. That's the legacy of a racist father. Thanks

(not!) Dad for making me even more uncomfortable around other people and

with myself than I would have been anyway.

[Guest guest]

Sparrow Rose Cross danced around singing:

>One thing that bugs me is when people (usually white people) say they are

> " colorblind " and don't see race. Race (and the cultures that surround it)

>is a part of who people are.

I have to speak up here just because I really *don't* notice differences

between human colorations. I understand that there are bits of culture,

and I respect that, but typically I fail to notice them -- and when it

comes to noticing physical differences, I'm a lost cause. I am aware of

people's appearance only in pieces, with hair color being one thing, hair

length another, general body shape another, so on and so forth, to the

point that I rarely get an " overall image " of who or what a person is.

For example, I know that my partner is taller than me, has short black wavy

hair that makes his jaw a bit dark at the end of the day, and is built

sturdily. He told me that he is largely Celtic, but because he has black

hair and a dark jaw, I can't distinguish him from a guy at the gym with the

same features, who also looks just like a boy I went to school with that

had a Middle Eastern surname. I'd be lucky if I could tell him apart from

, who is Italian with brown hair, and both of them look like the lead

singer from Barenaked Ladies to me.

A nurse asked me if it disturbed me that my surgeon is black, and my

response was " he is? " All I knew was that he had short dark wavy hair,

glasses, and is tall. When I specifically focused on skin color, I noticed

he was dark.

So some people really *are* colorblind when it comes to other races.

>It's like if someone said they were

> " neuro-blind " and didn't see autism. I don't *want* to be treated like a

>neurotypical! I don't want to be prejudiced against, but I don't want to

>have my differences ignored.

I'm not sure what difference in treatment you mean... I don't want people

pushing me to act in ways or tolerate things that make me uncomfortable,

but that would be the same regardless of my neurology. (Not to say I don't

differentiate myself as autistic, just that I have no idea how one would

treat me differently because of it, aside from being respectful of physical

needs I have.) Also, you're assuming that someone is different *because*

of the color of their skin, rather than their personal

background. Logically, I don't think that a black person that had grown up

in upper-middle-class Britain would appreciate having you go up and talk to

(or act towards) him/her as if they were from a ghetto in America just

because of the skin tone issue.

DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

[Guest guest]

--- Sparrow Rose Cross

wrote:

>

> But at the same time, people *aren't* the same.

> (basically the same, yes.

> *the* same, no.)

> One thing that bugs me is when people (usually white

> people) say they are

> " colorblind " and don't see race. Race (and the

> cultures that surround it)

> is a part of who people are. It's like if someone

> said they were

> " neuro-blind " and didn't see autism. I don't *want*

> to be treated like a

> neurotypical! I don't want to be prejudiced against,

> but I don't want to

> have my differences ignored.

--- I tend to agree. When I wrote the post about the

conv. with Carl, its b/c the issues involved do go

into spiritual realms beyond race. But race is there,

and 'colorblind' is not necessarily a good thing,

unless someone's definitions of it include racism.

>

> For a long time, I thought I must be a terrible

> racist because I couldn't

> ignore the fact that black people are various shades

> of brown, all much

> darker than my skin. I couldn't ignore the fact that

> most of the black

> people I was around smelled different from the white

> people (I've since

> learned that's mostly because of different hair

> products.) I couldn't

> ignore the fact that black hair was different from

> white hair. I couldn't

> ignore the fact that a black accent was usually

> different from a white

> accent. And since I grew up with a father who is one

> of those " let's send

> them back to Africa " racists, I assumed that I, too,

> must be a racist

> without knowing it and that it must be so ingrained

> in me that I could

> never get rid of it.

--------I agree up with a racist father, who blindly

inherited his racism from his own father. In spite of

the fact that all my father's favorite jazz artists

and solo singers were black, he was racist. In spite

of the fact that my mothers' un-spoken of Jewishness

gave her black kinky hair and olive skin that darkened

easily in the summer. Go figure!

>

> Then one day I realized, " duh! of course I notice

> the difference because

> there *are* differences! " I htought about it some

> more and realized that

> there was never a time when I didn't notice one

> particular woman's

> beautiful red hair. Or a man I knew had beautiful

> ice-blue eyes like a

> husky dog and I never talked to him without noticing

> his eye color. So why

> was I so hung-up about noticing that the girl in my

> class had skin like

> coffee with two creams in it or that the man my

> friend was dating had hair

> that looked so much like sheep wool I wanted to

> touch it? One day I got up

> the nerve to ask if it was okay to touch his

> hair and he said, " sure,

> go for it. " It was so soft! Not quite like a sheep

> but very very nice to

> touch. I was twenty-seven years old and I had never

> touched a black person

> before.

>

> Touching ' hair made me realize just how afraid

> I had been up to that

> point. I wasn't afraid of black people, I was afraid

> that I was prejudiced

> against black people and that if I spent too much

> time around black people

> I would accidentally reveal my prejudice by saying

> something my father used

> to say, something that was the wrong thing to say

> but that I dind't know

> because I grew up hearing it.

-------------I understand this completely, as I felt

similarly in high school.

I think I probably

> also had a lot of a

> strange sort of feeling mixed in -- not quite guilt,

> but maybe fear that I

> would be seen to *not* feel guilty? I had noticed

> what you say -- that

> caucasians is the least politically correct race to

> be -- but couldn't

> manage to feel guilty about being white.

-------------From my experience, this thinking seems

to be 'put out there' by the more radical fringe of

both black and white liberals. Most mainstream blacks

don't think this way; having people be aware is one

thing but carrying guilt is useless.

I've never

> enslaved anyone. I've

> never told someone they couldn't go to school. I've

> never made someone

> drink out of a different water fountain. Why should

> I feel guilty about

> being white? Who do I oppress (other than maybe

> myself sometimes. LOL)

>

> I'm probably rambling now, but race has been a big

> issue to me for most of

> my life and the ironic thing is that it really

> wasn't as big of an issue as

> I was making it out to be. That's the legacy of a

> racist father. Thanks

> (not!) Dad for making me even more uncomfortable

> around other people and

> with myself than I would have been anyway.

>

--------When i turned twelve I began to question the

use of the word 'nigger' in our house; " So are Dionne

Warwick and Nat King Cole niggers? Was Duke Ellington

one, but you adored him? " My father HATED

contradictions pointed out to him.

I was intrigued by black people b/c I liked a lot

of their music better. In seventh grade, we had our

first ever three black kids in our school, one of

which was a boy, who decided he wanted to walk me

home. I nearly got beat for it.

In the midst of my divorce at 26, a friend took

me to a black church, which I immediately loved, altho

it was all so alien to me. I went there on and off

for nearly a decade, and would be there still if it

wasn't so by-the-book conservative. But I still

respect them for it, its just not me. Some of the

people from then I am still friends with. My two

closest RL friends are black women. Perhaps I have a

glitch b/c I was not given any positive caucasian male

role models while growing up (lol) but I've tended

since my divorce to date/be involved with mostly black

men, altho I dated a Chinese guy and a Venezuelan

also. Having a biracial son is a problem for some

white men also. Interracial dating is not a 'kink'

for me, I've had a genuine interest in a lot of

cultural and musical forms that have inspired me.

I've also never had abuse and criticism about my body

from black men as I have from white men, and I'm not

fat either, but definitely do not have small boy

shaped hips, which white men seem to prefer. Before

anyone gets upset, yes, there are as many black male

jerks out there as white male jerks.

Nanne

=====

" Does it mean I should take a machete? To chop my way through the path of life?

Does it mean I should run with the dog pack? Is that the way to be the one to

survive? Never need a gun says T'ai Chi, move on up to dragon snaps his tail:

All by the still water, hammer with his eye on the nail; Is the music of grove

school rock, soaked in the diesals of war boys war? Blood, black gold and the

face of a judge, is the music calling for a river of blood?--- " Corner Soul " , ,

Joe Strummer/Mick

[Guest guest]

--- Cerulean wrote:

>

> > --- I tend to agree. When I wrote the post

about

> the

> conv. with Carl, its b/c the issues involved do go

> into spiritual realms beyond race. But race is

> there,

> and 'colorblind' is not necessarily a good thing,

> unless someone's definitions of it include racism.

> >

> -------That last sentence was supposed to be:

" ..is not necessarily a good thing WHEN someone's

definitions include racism. "

Nanne

=====

" Does it mean I should take a machete? To chop my way through the path of life?

Does it mean I should run with the dog pack? Is that the way to be the one to

survive? Never need a gun says T'ai Chi, move on up to dragon snaps his tail:

All by the still water, hammer with his eye on the nail; Is the music of grove

school rock, soaked in the diesals of war boys war? Blood, black gold and the

face of a judge, is the music calling for a river of blood?--- " Corner Soul " , ,

Joe Strummer/Mick

[Guest guest]

At 02:46 PM 1/19/03 -0800, DeGraf wrote:

>So some people really *are* colorblind when it comes to other races.

I somehow doubt that the scads of liberals I've seen talking about being

colorblind all have prosopagnosia.

>>It's like if someone said they were

>> " neuro-blind " and didn't see autism. I don't *want* to be treated like a

>>neurotypical! I don't want to be prejudiced against, but I don't want to

>>have my differences ignored.

>

>I'm not sure what difference in treatment you mean...

" Well, if everyone's treated the same, then it doesn't matter that you're

autistic, sit in front of this bank of fluorescent lights with everyone

else. Why should I treat you differently? We're all the same, after all! "

Now is what I said a little clearer? That's just one example, of course.

>Also, you're assuming that someone is different *because*

>of the color of their skin, rather than their personal

>background.

Did I come across as saying that? I'm horrified!!! Maybe I am secretly

prejudiced after all! I didn't mean that at all! I thought I had indicated

that I was talking about cultural differences and using terms like " some "

or " the people around me " to show that I wasn't indicating that skin color

made a person be a certain way.

>Logically, I don't think that a black person that had grown up

>in upper-middle-class Britain would appreciate having you go up and talk to

>(or act towards) him/her as if they were from a ghetto in America just

>because of the skin tone issue.

I don't do that!!!!! I know blacks from the SOuth, blacks from the West

coast and blacks from Africa and they're all different. I am so embarassed

that I came across as saying something that I didn't mean. I should have

never opened my mouth in the first place. And maybe I'm right to avoid

blacks. It's so hard to do, though, when I love drum circles and there are

so many African nationals here. They seem to like me but maybe they're just

being polite or maybe they don't understand what I say. I don't want them

to go back to their country and tell people that Americans were all fucked

up like me. I don't know if I could find an all-white drum circle, though.

I thought I was over my fear of being stupid around black people but now I

think I must have been justified to have that fear and I should avoid black

people if I don't want to really piss someone off or get beaten up or

killed for saying something stupid when I thought I was saying something else.

I hate my father for doing this to me! I thought I was over my childhood

hates and that I loved my father for all the good things he'd done for me

but teaching me about science and numbers can't erase the evil things he

said and did. I don't know if I'd rather kill myself for being an incurable

racist or kill him for doing it to me!

I'm going to go stick my head in a hole in the ground now. I should have

never discussed these things but I thought maybe people here would

understand about having secret feelings that there was something wrong with

one's self and understand about being afraid to talk to people in case they

saw those dark secrets.

I should never open my mouth about race or skin color again. I just put my

foot in it when I do and what my partner told me several months ago is

correct: if I don't just shut up about racial and ethnic and cultural

differences altogether I'm going to end up saying the wrong thing to the

wrong person and get myself shot.

Please, everyone, please just ignore the things I said and if you can't

ignore them, please just remember that they were the words of a foolish

girl who's been totally fucked-up by her upbringing. I'll go hide int hat

ostrich hole now. Please, I hope everyone can forgive me and just let this

whole topic die before I die of humiliation at my screwed up attitudes and

fucked up way of communicating.

[Guest guest]

Sparrow Rose Cross wrote:

> I hate my father for doing this to me! I thought I was over my childhood

> hates and that I loved my father for all the good things he'd done for me

> but teaching me about science and numbers can't erase the evil things he

> said and did. I don't know if I'd rather kill myself for being an incurable

> racist or kill him for doing it to me!

You do not sound like a racist to me at all. What your father did to you, I

think, is to

make you very conscious of race, and to be very self-conscious about any little

thing that

seems to indicate that you are like him. The fact that it bothers you tells me

that you

are nothing like him.

> I'm going to go stick my head in a hole in the ground now. I should have

> never discussed these things but I thought maybe people here would

> understand about having secret feelings that there was something wrong with

> one's self and understand about being afraid to talk to people in case they

> saw those dark secrets.

You are being far too hard on yourself, I think. You should discuss things that

are

obviously still ongoing issues.

> I should never open my mouth about race or skin color again.

That will not change who you are, which (I think) is not a racist person, nor

will it

change your self-perception.

> I just put my

> foot in it when I do and what my partner told me several months ago is

> correct: if I don't just shut up about racial and ethnic and cultural

> differences altogether I'm going to end up saying the wrong thing to the

> wrong person and get myself shot.

What a horribly racist thing for him to say. Is it not racist to assume that

there are a

bunch of lurking people of different racial/ethnic/cultural groups out there

that are just

waiting to shoot you if you say the wrong thing?

> Please, everyone, please just ignore the things I said and if you can't

> ignore them, please just remember that they were the words of a foolish

> girl who's been totally fucked-up by her upbringing.

Only to the extent that she is hyperaware of what others think of her views on

race.

> I'll go hide int hat

> ostrich hole now. Please, I hope everyone can forgive me and just let this

> whole topic die before I die of humiliation at my screwed up attitudes and

> fucked up way of communicating.

Communication is a process that involves both expression and reception.

did not

understand what you were trying to say; that does not imply that the fault is

yours, or

that there is really any fault at all. Communication errors happen... they

happen with

NTs and they happen with us. There is no implication that what another

misunderstood you

to say is true. You said that was not what you meant, and that is that, as far

as I am

concerned. Although I speak only for myself, I would bet that others on the

list concur.

[Guest guest]

Sparrow,

You are not a racist at all!! Please don't feel this wey. You were talking

about differences in people that you observed. Of course you wouldn't walk

up to someone from Africa and assume their life was like that of a black

person from an American innter city.

I took it to mean you were speaking generally about observable differences,

such as skin colar and hair texture, and that there are some cultural

differences between white and many black people you have observed. If you

met a black person who grew up in an upper class British family I'm sure

you'd see the cultural difference right away from a black person who grew up

in the inner city, or from a black person who grew up in a middle-class

American family for that matter.

If you were like your dad none of this would bother you at all. The fact

that it does shows you are not a racist. There is no reason why you should

stay away from black people because you feel you will treat them in a racist

way!

Pleeeaassseee don't feel this way or beat yourself up about this!!!

Norah

>

> Reply-To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 17:59:39 -0700

> To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Subject: Re: United Statesian (was Re: RE:)

>

>

> I hate my father for doing this to me! I thought I was over my childhood

> hates and that I loved my father for all the good things he'd done for me

> but teaching me about science and numbers can't erase the evil things he

> said and did. I don't know if I'd rather kill myself for being an incurable

> racist or kill him for doing it to me!

[Guest guest]

Norah Willett danced around singing:

>I took it to mean you were speaking generally about observable differences,

>such as skin colar and hair texture, and that there are some cultural

>differences between white and many black people you have observed.

That's how I interpreted the post too, except I didn't notice the " many "

with reference to black people and misread it as a blanket " white is one

way, black is another " commentary.

[Guest guest]

Re: United Statesian (was Re: RE:)

> Sparrow wrote:

> >In my twenties, I made a big deal out of being called a World Citizen

> >rather than an American Citizen but I don't do that any more because I

> >don't want to give the false impression that I'm disgusted to live in the

> >United States because I'm not. I'm glad I live in the United States.

There

> >are many beautiful places in the world that I'd love to visit, but I'm

> >pleased that an accident of birth caused me to live in the U.S.

>

> I feel (and felt) the same. In 1967 or '68, I tried to

> renounce my U.S. citizenship because I disagreed so

> intensely with the government's policies in SE Asia.

> When I did that, I in no way thought of it as separating

> myself from the country or the people here, it was just

> a way to separate myself decisively from the government.

> I wasn't allowed to give up my citizenship anyway,

> because (I was told) one may renounce one's U.S.

> citizenship only in time of war. And in 1967/'68, the

> theory was that the U.S. was not at war. Riiiiiggghhht.

>

> I just heard on NPR that some of the people

> demonstrating against war in Washington, D.C. today

> marched to the Navy yard and tried to get in to search

> for weapons of mass destruction. :-)

>

> Jane

I heard as many as 500,000 demonstrated in Washington DC, Saturday and I

attended a Justice Not War conference in Glasgow, only 25 miles away from

the Naval Base of the UK's (US-made) submarine-launched Trident nuclear

warheads.

Anyway in two workshops I had to contend with various factions of the

dogmatic left. In a workshop on civil liberties one articulate woman in her

50s spoke enthusiastically of the days when she broke up a meeting held by a

far-right grouping and got arrested. Would I dare say that the same

legislation allegedly introduced to protect ethnic minorities " against

incitement to racial hatred " is now used to lock up antiwar protestors. I

ended up siding with anarchist over free speech, but he had got arrested for

spraing " Free Palestine " (a major theme at the conference) on a motorway

bridge. My comment is most commuters would be asking " Where is Palestine? " .

BTW I couldn't see the start of the thread United Statesian? Does it have

anything do with subtle semantic issues, i.e. does American = " North

American " + " South American " or does it just mean " US citizen " , but then it

could mean Amerindian. Alternatively, South America could find a new name,

" Gonduana occidental " (West Gondwanaland).

As my Dad was involved with arms sales to Saudi Arabia and Iran (on a

technical level) back in the 80s, I've long been critical of the UK (during

a short phase I would pretend to be something else, which in Germany or

Italy was relatively easy unless I bumped into someone from the country I

claimed to hail from), indeed thoroughly ashamed. Methinks Blair is as keen

as on securing Iraqi oil fields for BP-Amoco as Bush is for Exxon, Gulf and

Texaco!

Neil

[Guest guest]

Re: United Statesian (was Re: RE:)

BTW I couldn't see the start of the thread United Statesian? Does it have

anything do with subtle semantic issues, i.e. does American = " North

American " + " South American " or does it just mean " US citizen " , but then it

could mean Amerindian. Alternatively, South America could find a new name,

" Gonduana occidental " (West Gondwanaland).

Hello Neil,

In the artificial language Esperanto, the name for an inhabitant of the United

States is " usonano " (derived from United States of North America). I wouldn't

mind being referred to as a " Usonan " (to anglicize the term). It's certainly

less awkward than " United Statesian " .

[Guest guest]

> Methinks Blair is as keen

> as on securing Iraqi oil fields for BP-Amoco as Bush is for Exxon, Gulf and

> Texaco!

I was at an anti-war march yesterday, and some of the signs people were

carrying said: " Exxon, Mobil, BP, Shell: Take your war and go to hell. "

Iris

Iris Gray, Puff, Calli and Munchkin

Most women use vacuum cleaners. I rent a forklift.

--Jane Yeats, " Sudden Blow "

Personal website: http://victoria.tc.ca/~rainbow/

Toastmasters website: http://victoria.tc.ca/Community/Bb/

[Guest guest]

> Iris wrote:

> >I was at an anti-war march yesterday, and some of the signs people were

> >carrying said: " Exxon, Mobil, BP, Shell: Take your war and go to hell. "

Unfortunately, it's fairly certain that most of the marchers used

petroleum-powered transportation to get there.

Doug

[Guest guest]

Iris wrote:

>I was at an anti-war march yesterday, and some of the signs people were

>carrying said: " Exxon, Mobil, BP, Shell: Take your war and go to hell. "

There were more than 500 people at the weekly neighborhood

anti-war vigil yesterday (up from 250 two weeks ago and

300 last week). One man had made as sign saying " Dump Bush,

not bombs. "

Another man has made up stickers in red-white-and-blue.

I'll try to replicate them here, but you have to imagine

the asterisks as full-size stars, same size as the

letters.

---------

B U * *

--------

S H * *

-------

There was a lovely dog at the vigil. The person with the

dog said it was a " mutt " (pound dog), probably part

Samoyed. It had a Samoyed's lovely well-furred ears and

the fluffy Samoyed coat. But the dog was smaller than

a Samoyed and, instead of being snow-white, was a really

lovely light-apricot color. Nice friendly dog, too.

Jane

[Guest guest]

Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 5:04 PM

> At 11:49 AM 1/19/03 -0500, Rakus wrote:

>

> >I've finally come to the conclusion that it's okay to SAY that all people

> >are basically the same, as long as you don't actually believe it. After

> >all, caucasians are currently the lowest lifeform, and we should accept

that

> >fact and behave accordingly. I've very rarely actually met people who

truly

> >seem to believe that " people are people " , even when they say that they

think

> >that. You're right...it's confusing.

>

> But at the same time, people *aren't* the same. (basically the same, yes.

> *the* same, no.)

> One thing that bugs me is when people (usually white people) say they are

> " colorblind " and don't see race. Race (and the cultures that surround it)

> is a part of who people are. It's like if someone said they were

> " neuro-blind " and didn't see autism. I don't *want* to be treated like a

> neurotypical! I don't want to be prejudiced against, but I don't want to

> have my differences ignored.

Yes! Exactly!

I've always been amused and confused by people who make a big deal about

being " colorblind " . Those people seem to me to be the ones who are

hyper-aware of color.

>

> For a long time, I thought I must be a terrible racist because I couldn't

> ignore the fact that black people are various shades of brown, all much

> darker than my skin. I couldn't ignore the fact that most of the black

> people I was around smelled different from the white people (I've since

> learned that's mostly because of different hair products.) I couldn't

> ignore the fact that black hair was different from white hair. I couldn't

> ignore the fact that a black accent was usually different from a white

> accent. And since I grew up with a father who is one of those " let's send

> them back to Africa " racists, I assumed that I, too, must be a racist

> without knowing it and that it must be so ingrained in me that I could

> never get rid of it.

I have never been very good at grouping people into general categories, so,

since I developed the ability to think independently and logically, I've

tried to always consider people as individuals. I grew up steeped in

racism, and periodically I still find myself mentally responding to people

based on that. I usually manage to logic them away before I embarrass

myself, but sometimes they slip out. But I make at least as many social

flubs around white people (probably more, since I spend more time around

white people), so I don't really think that I'm a racist.

>

> Then one day I realized, " duh! of course I notice the difference because

> there *are* differences! " I htought about it some more and realized that

> there was never a time when I didn't notice one particular woman's

> beautiful red hair. Or a man I knew had beautiful ice-blue eyes like a

> husky dog and I never talked to him without noticing his eye color. So why

> was I so hung-up about noticing that the girl in my class had skin like

> coffee with two creams in it or that the man my friend was dating had hair

> that looked so much like sheep wool I wanted to touch it? One day I got up

> the nerve to ask if it was okay to touch his hair and he said,

" sure,

> go for it. " It was so soft! Not quite like a sheep but very very nice to

> touch. I was twenty-seven years old and I had never touched a black person

> before.

Of course there are differences. It's a shame that such a big deal has been

made in the past about skin color that it is now inappropriate to admit that

you notice the differences. There is a girl who works at the local WalMart

who has the most beautiful skin that I have ever seen. The texture is

flawless, and she sort of has a radiant glow. She also happens to be black.

Because of the color factor, I feel that it would be inappropriate for me to

tell her that she has beautiful skin.

My aspie son has always called white skin blonde skin. I like that. It

makes it seem to be nothing more significant than hair color.

>

> Touching ' hair made me realize just how afraid I had been up to that

> point. I wasn't afraid of black people, I was afraid that I was prejudiced

> against black people and that if I spent too much time around black people

> I would accidentally reveal my prejudice by saying something my father

used

> to say, something that was the wrong thing to say but that I dind't know

> because I grew up hearing it. I think I probably also had a lot of a

> strange sort of feeling mixed in -- not quite guilt, but maybe fear that I

> would be seen to *not* feel guilty? I had noticed what you say -- that

> caucasians is the least politically correct race to be -- but couldn't

> manage to feel guilty about being white. I've never enslaved anyone. I've

> never told someone they couldn't go to school. I've never made someone

> drink out of a different water fountain. Why should I feel guilty about

> being white? Who do I oppress (other than maybe myself sometimes. LOL)

I've never been able to feel guilty about being white either...even though

apparently I'm supposed to. And I can understand your fear that you could

have absorbed your father's racism without really knowing it. That seems

pretty insightful to me. So many people " inherit " the attitudes of their

parents without ever questioning them. You questioned your father's beliefs

and rejected them.

>

> I'm probably rambling now, but race has been a big issue to me for most of

> my life and the ironic thing is that it really wasn't as big of an issue

as

> I was making it out to be. That's the legacy of a racist father. Thanks

> (not!) Dad for making me even more uncomfortable around other people and

> with myself than I would have been anyway.

Doesn't sound like rambling to me. It all makes complete sense. My dad

probably wasn't quite as much of a racist as yours, but I bet my grandpa was

even worse. I still resent the fact that because of my upbringing the first

thing I notice about people is their skin color.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 7:59 PM

> At 02:46 PM 1/19/03 -0800, DeGraf wrote:

>

> I'm going to go stick my head in a hole in the ground now. I should have

> never discussed these things but I thought maybe people here would

> understand about having secret feelings that there was something wrong

with

> one's self and understand about being afraid to talk to people in case

they

> saw those dark secrets.

>

> I should never open my mouth about race or skin color again. I just put my

> foot in it when I do and what my partner told me several months ago is

> correct: if I don't just shut up about racial and ethnic and cultural

> differences altogether I'm going to end up saying the wrong thing to the

> wrong person and get myself shot.

>

> Please, everyone, please just ignore the things I said and if you can't

> ignore them, please just remember that they were the words of a foolish

> girl who's been totally fucked-up by her upbringing. I'll go hide int hat

> ostrich hole now. Please, I hope everyone can forgive me and just let this

> whole topic die before I die of humiliation at my screwed up attitudes and

> fucked up way of communicating.

>

Uh oh...I guess I'll have to hide in an ostrich hole next to yours because I

think I understood exactly what you were saying! I've felt a lot of the

same things, and I think you expressed them very well...much better than I

could have ).

[Guest guest]

>

> There was a lovely dog at the vigil. The person with

> the

> dog said it was a " mutt " (pound dog), probably part

> Samoyed. It had a Samoyed's lovely well-furred ears

> and

> the fluffy Samoyed coat. But the dog was smaller

> than

> a Samoyed and, instead of being snow-white, was a

> really

> lovely light-apricot color. Nice friendly dog, too.

>

> Jane

---------Hey, you just described our Beyzeng! When I

figure out scanning I'll be sure to send in a pic.

Nanne

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 4:09 PM

>> ---------I've never had 'white guilt', I like what I

> like because I like it.

> Last summer during an argument, Carl said to

> me, " Reggae is for black people, not white women. " I

> said to him, " That's the stupidest thing that could

> ever come out of your mouth. Listen to the lyrics,

> its for the spirit of whoever it touches and moves. "

That is a stupid thing to say. I've always loved reggae...that was one of

the reasons that I got married in Jamaica...and no one has ever refused to

sell me a reggae CD because I'm a white woman.

> There is a large African population in my

> community, and I have numerous friends from Malawi and

> Kenya. It is interesting that many of them have worst

> prejudice against american blacks than some whites do.

Having grown up in an area full of " white trash " , I would have to admit to

being quite prejudiced against them.

> Last night a friend from Malawi was over and

> we all watched some videos, one was " Undercover

> Brother " , which was hysterical in its poking fun at

> stereotypes of both blacks and caucasians. There was

> a lot of it that he did not comprehend, though, and I

> had to explain. I find it interesting to learn about

> these different thoughts on race from blacks who

> originate from outside of the U.S.

> Nanne

> P.S. I used to have this very 'liberal' female friend

> who is no longer my friend, b/c she got terribly

> offended when I informed her that a particular black

> person she admired was a thief. I do not and have

> never believed in tippy-toeing around racial issues on

> eggshells. I will not hesitate to blast some asshole

> white person for being racist, but neither will I ever

> 'admire' someone for their 'blackness' just b/c they

> are black, but a big asshole to boot.

> >

Most of the very liberal people I've known have been too easily offended and

high-maintenance for me to be able to develop any kind of relationships with

them. I can't allow myself to go past the level of formal politeness with

them. I have enough trouble with people who have " normal " offense levels.

I try never to denigrate anyone based on their beliefs...no matter how

different they are from mine. However, I'm always on the lookout for faulty

logic, and I usually don't miss many chances to point those out ;o).