Cheney heart studies and Permax

[Guest guest]

a,

I doubt it. I believe the hole in the heart is located between the ventricles

and the heart valve problems some have, myself included, involve the mitral

valve. I don't remember hearing about any Cheney patients being on Permax. In

his dvd and the prior video he mentions that conventional heart meds are usually

of no benefit and sometimes make things worse. Steve B.

pjeanneus <pj7@...> wrote:

I saw in the paper today that Permax, sometimes used for restless leg

syndrome, causes heart valve problems at " an extrodinarily high risk "

rate. The two drugs listed in the article are pergolide or

cabergoline. This leads me to wonder if the opening between the heart

wall Cheney is finding MAY be caused by some medication and not by

cfs, the disease. Any thoughts?

a Carnes

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Steve. Yes, there are two variables, one being valve vs. a

reopening of the heart wall, and the fact that Permax is probably not

so commonly prescribed although it is prescribed for restless leg

which a lot of cfs and fms patients have.

But sometimes it is worth thinking outside the box - if the drug

harms the valve could it also be causing this other problem - is

there a drug relative that is being given to cfs patients that might

be doing the same damage?

I don't know the answers, but I do notice things that make me

question.

a

>

> a,

>

> I doubt it. I believe the hole in the heart is located between

the ventricles and the heart valve problems some have, myself

included, involve the mitral valve. I don't remember hearing about

any Cheney patients being on Permax. In his dvd and the prior video

he mentions that conventional heart meds are usually of no benefit

and sometimes make things worse. Steve B.

>

> pjeanneus <pj7@...> wrote:

> I saw in the paper today that Permax, sometimes used for

restless leg

> syndrome, causes heart valve problems at " an extrodinarily high

risk "

> rate. The two drugs listed in the article are pergolide or

> cabergoline. This leads me to wonder if the opening between the

heart

> wall Cheney is finding MAY be caused by some medication and not by

> cfs, the disease. Any thoughts?

>

> a Carnes

>

>

>

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

" pjeanneus " <pj7@...> wrote:

>

> Thanks, Steve. Yes, there are two variables, one being valve vs. a

reopening of the heart wall, and the fact that Permax is probably not

so commonly prescribed although it is prescribed for restless leg

which a lot of cfs and fms patients have.

>

> But sometimes it is worth thinking outside the box - if the drug

> harms the valve could it also be causing this other problem - is

> there a drug relative that is being given to cfs patients that

might be doing the same damage?

>

> I don't know the answers, but I do notice things that make me

> question.

>

> a

Naah. Never did no drugs.

It's the " irreconciliable conflict " that must be opening up the hole,

which might even be an evolutionary cardiological " safety valve " .

/message/73348

-

[Guest guest]

What Cheney found as something characterizing CFS patients is quiet wrong or at

least not outstanding. The PFO that he states is present in a vast portion of

healthy individuals as well, and in 80% of all submarines. To my opinion it is

not a valueble finding.

Massimo

Re: Cheney heart studies and Permax

Thanks, Steve. Yes, there are two variables, one being valve vs. a

reopening of the heart wall, and the fact that Permax is probably not

so commonly prescribed although it is prescribed for restless leg

which a lot of cfs and fms patients have.

But sometimes it is worth thinking outside the box - if the drug

harms the valve could it also be causing this other problem - is

there a drug relative that is being given to cfs patients that might

be doing the same damage?

I don't know the answers, but I do notice things that make me

question.

a

>

> a,

>

> I doubt it. I believe the hole in the heart is located between

the ventricles and the heart valve problems some have, myself

included, involve the mitral valve. I don't remember hearing about

any Cheney patients being on Permax. In his dvd and the prior video

he mentions that conventional heart meds are usually of no benefit

and sometimes make things worse. Steve B.

>

> pjeanneus <pj7@...> wrote:

> I saw in the paper today that Permax, sometimes used for

restless leg

> syndrome, causes heart valve problems at " an extrodinarily high

risk "

> rate. The two drugs listed in the article are pergolide or

> cabergoline. This leads me to wonder if the opening between the

heart

> wall Cheney is finding MAY be caused by some medication and not by

> cfs, the disease. Any thoughts?

>

> a Carnes

>

>

>

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

, you wrote:

" an irreconciliable conflict between the circulating

Catecholamines from the tissues telling the heart to deliver more

Oxygen - and the mechano-receptors in the heart which sense excess

pressure from irregularities induced by autonomic dysfunction and

cause the left ventricular pooling.

Like a combination betweens Lerners viral defect and Krebs cycle

metabolic dysfunction. "

a asks:

What if some drug does make this worse or more likely? Cheney and

others do have pet drugs they prescribe such as Klonopin. I am hoping

some chemist on this list, someone like Mark London, will take a

close look at the drug I mentioned. What other drugs are related?

Which ones are commonly prescribed to cfs/fms patients? What are the

chances this would abnormally elevate the heart risk for the problem

Cheney has identified?

a C.

>

> " pjeanneus " <pj7@> wrote:

> >

> > Thanks, Steve. Yes, there are two variables, one being valve vs.

a

> reopening of the heart wall, and the fact that Permax is probably

not

> so commonly prescribed although it is prescribed for restless leg

> which a lot of cfs and fms patients have.

> >

> > But sometimes it is worth thinking outside the box - if the drug

> > harms the valve could it also be causing this other problem - is

> > there a drug relative that is being given to cfs patients that

> might be doing the same damage?

> >

> > I don't know the answers, but I do notice things that make me

> > question.

> >

> > a

>

>

> Naah. Never did no drugs.

> It's the " irreconciliable conflict " that must be opening up the

hole,

> which might even be an evolutionary cardiological " safety valve " .

>

> /message/73348

>

> -

>

[Guest guest]

" pjeanneus " <pj7@...> wrote:

> a asks:

What if some drug does make this worse or more likely? Cheney and

others do have pet drugs they prescribe such as Klonopin. I am hoping

some chemist on this list, someone like Mark London, will take a

close look at the drug I mentioned. What other drugs are related?

Which ones are commonly prescribed to cfs/fms patients? What are the

chances this would abnormally elevate the heart risk for the problem

Cheney has identified?

> a C.

No idea what effect these drugs might have, but just like stress, if

the problem goes on and manifests in CFSers without this variable,

those who weren't influenced by this factor act as a control group and

are a demonstration that " The illness doesn't much care about that " .

-

(Wow, it's snowing like crazy up here in Incline right now!)

[Guest guest]

I saw in the paper today that Permax, sometimes used for restless leg

syndrome, causes heart valve problems at " an extrodinarily high risk "

rate. The two drugs listed in the article are pergolide or

cabergoline. This leads me to wonder if the opening between the heart

wall Cheney is finding MAY be caused by some medication and not by

cfs, the disease. Any thoughts?

a Carnes

[Guest guest]

It's present in 10 to 20% of the general population, which is not a

vast proportion, but Cheney is seeing it in over 80% of his patients,

which is a vast proportion.

It is present at birth but closes. He thinks something about CFIDS'

effect on the heart is making it blow open and that it is significant.

Helen

-- In , " *Massimo " <maxupolo@...>

wrote:

>

> What Cheney found as something characterizing CFS patients is quiet

wrong or at least not outstanding. The PFO that he states is present

in a vast portion of healthy individuals as well, and in 80% of all

submarines. To my opinion it is not a valueble finding.

>

> Massimo

>

> Re: Cheney heart studies and Permax

>

>

> Thanks, Steve. Yes, there are two variables, one being valve vs.

a

> reopening of the heart wall, and the fact that Permax is probably

not

> so commonly prescribed although it is prescribed for restless leg

> which a lot of cfs and fms patients have.

>

> But sometimes it is worth thinking outside the box - if the drug

> harms the valve could it also be causing this other problem - is

> there a drug relative that is being given to cfs patients that

might

> be doing the same damage?

>

> I don't know the answers, but I do notice things that make me

> question.

>

> a

>

> >

> > a,

> >

> > I doubt it. I believe the hole in the heart is located between

> the ventricles and the heart valve problems some have, myself

> included, involve the mitral valve. I don't remember hearing

about

> any Cheney patients being on Permax. In his dvd and the prior

video

> he mentions that conventional heart meds are usually of no

benefit

> and sometimes make things worse. Steve B.

> >

> > pjeanneus <pj7@> wrote:

> > I saw in the paper today that Permax, sometimes used for

> restless leg

> > syndrome, causes heart valve problems at " an extrodinarily high

> risk "

> > rate. The two drugs listed in the article are pergolide or

> > cabergoline. This leads me to wonder if the opening between the

> heart

> > wall Cheney is finding MAY be caused by some medication and not

by

> > cfs, the disease. Any thoughts?

> >

> > a Carnes

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > __________________________________________________

> >

[Guest guest]

Helen,

can you imagine how many people correspond to the 20% of the total population?

Approximately 1 billion people around the world. Against an 80% of CFSIDS'

patients, that presumebly could be around 10 million around the world, so it

makes 8 millions. But Helen, remember that Cheney tested only his patients, so

this makes a sample of maybe 2.000 people more or less.

You see, this finding to me does not mean much, more for the fact that we have 1

billion healthy people around the world with this dysfunction. We don't even

know if this can be related to CFS then or not.

And as I said, there are particular categories that have a much higer proportion

in terms of carrying PFO individuals. For example, it is estimated that 80% of

professional submarines have it, and they look to me plenty of energy and very

healthy.

Cheers,

Massimo

Re: Cheney heart studies and Permax

>

>

> Thanks, Steve. Yes, there are two variables, one being valve vs.

a

> reopening of the heart wall, and the fact that Permax is probably

not

> so commonly prescribed although it is prescribed for restless leg

> which a lot of cfs and fms patients have.

>

> But sometimes it is worth thinking outside the box - if the drug

> harms the valve could it also be causing this other problem - is

> there a drug relative that is being given to cfs patients that

might

> be doing the same damage?

>

> I don't know the answers, but I do notice things that make me

> question.

>

> a

>

> >

> > a,

> >

> > I doubt it. I believe the hole in the heart is located between

> the ventricles and the heart valve problems some have, myself

> included, involve the mitral valve. I don't remember hearing

about

> any Cheney patients being on Permax. In his dvd and the prior

video

> he mentions that conventional heart meds are usually of no

benefit

> and sometimes make things worse. Steve B.

> >

> > pjeanneus <pj7@> wrote:

> > I saw in the paper today that Permax, sometimes used for

> restless leg

> > syndrome, causes heart valve problems at " an extrodinarily high

> risk "

> > rate. The two drugs listed in the article are pergolide or

> > cabergoline. This leads me to wonder if the opening between the

> heart

> > wall Cheney is finding MAY be caused by some medication and not

by

> > cfs, the disease. Any thoughts?

> >

> > a Carnes

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > __________________________________________________

> >

[Guest guest]

" helen9jora " wrote:

> It is present at birth but closes. He thinks something about CFIDS'

effect on the heart is making it blow open and that it is significant.

> Helen

Sounds like that " fits the facts " for me, since controlling that

neuro-cardiological response has been my primary therapy all these

years.

Any time Dr Cheney wants to discuss it, he can give me a buzz and I'll

meet him at the Wildflower Cafe.

If anyone sees Dr Cheney - feel free to tell him so.

I'd even be glad tell Dr (again), if isn't too angry at me for

arguing with him about this " effect " .

Heck, the Wildflower is just outside his front door so it wouldn't put

him out hardly at all.

-

[Guest guest]

Massimo:

percentage = proportion

if you have a PFO hole, you lose your last filtering system and

toxins from your bloodstream can go straight into your brain

it's really not a desirable condition

Cheney has been studying this disease avidly for 20 years and if he

thinks it is significant, that's good enough for me

Helen

> > > I saw in the paper today that Permax, sometimes used for

> > restless leg

> > > syndrome, causes heart valve problems at " an extrodinarily

high

> > risk "

> > > rate. The two drugs listed in the article are pergolide or

> > > cabergoline. This leads me to wonder if the opening between

the

> > heart

> > > wall Cheney is finding MAY be caused by some medication and

not

> by

> > > cfs, the disease. Any thoughts?

> > >

> > > a Carnes

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > __________________________________________________

> > >

[Guest guest]

Well he does not tell why healthy people happen to have PFO with no problems at

all whereas we have all these symptoms.

Anyway, I appreciate Cheney's work on CFS, I don't see it very life changing at

this time. But I am more than happy that you are satisfied with his care.

Massimo

Re: Cheney heart studies and Permax

Massimo:

percentage = proportion

if you have a PFO hole, you lose your last filtering system and

toxins from your bloodstream can go straight into your brain

it's really not a desirable condition

Cheney has been studying this disease avidly for 20 years and if he

thinks it is significant, that's good enough for me

Helen

> > > I saw in the paper today that Permax, sometimes used for

> > restless leg

> > > syndrome, causes heart valve problems at " an extrodinarily

high

> > risk "

> > > rate. The two drugs listed in the article are pergolide or

> > > cabergoline. This leads me to wonder if the opening between

the

> > heart

> > > wall Cheney is finding MAY be caused by some medication and

not

> by

> > > cfs, the disease. Any thoughts?

> > >

> > > a Carnes

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > __________________________________________________

> > >

[Guest guest]

The healthy people with PFO holes are somewhat irrelevant, since he

is not saying a PFO hole causes CFS, the reverse from what I

understand. But it does allow toxins to go to the brain and will

cause further problems.

I am slightly improved due to his regimen and having been ill for

decades, I appreciate any slight gain.

Helen

> > > > I saw in the paper today that Permax, sometimes used for

> > > restless leg

> > > > syndrome, causes heart valve problems at " an extrodinarily

> high

> > > risk "

> > > > rate. The two drugs listed in the article are pergolide or

> > > > cabergoline. This leads me to wonder if the opening between

> the

> > > heart

> > > > wall Cheney is finding MAY be caused by some medication and

> not

> > by

> > > > cfs, the disease. Any thoughts?

> > > >

> > > > a Carnes

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > __________________________________________________

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Many indoor molds of the aspergillius family also produce ergot alkaloids,

at high quantities, which might have similar effects on heart valves.

Its worth looking into.

[Guest guest]

Yes, Cheney is saying that the heart problem is secondary to

mitochondrial malfunction. And refers to Peckerman's study that some

CFS patients pump less blood after exercise than normal healthy

people. So someone who has this PFO without mito (or other) probs is ok.

Tony

> > > >

> > > > What Cheney found as something characterizing CFS patients is

> > quiet

> > > wrong or at least not outstanding. The PFO that he states is

> > present

> > > in a vast portion of healthy individuals as well, and in 80% of

> > all

> > > submarines. To my opinion it is not a valueble finding.

> > > >

> > > > Massimo

> > > >

> > > > ----- Original Message -----

>