Re: in **how** to give these signals

[Guest guest]

>It would have been nice if he could give you some help

>or training in **how** to give these signals, and to

>interpret those from others!!!

Is that a new subject beyond the three R's of education:

the art of signalling messages to others without directly

stating what you mean? When are those in the sphere

of education going to start this training (now whether

its needed or not is another issue) for all in basic schooling?

[Guest guest]

Seriously, they do have some social skills training now in some schools for

children who they feel need extra help with these things, so maybe some of

that training includes interpreting glances, facial expressions and body

language!

Norah

>

> Reply-To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 23:57:45 -0500

> To: <AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse >

> Subject: Re: " in **how** to give these signals "

>

>> It would have been nice if he could give you some help

>> or training in **how** to give these signals, and to

>> interpret those from others!!!

>

> Is that a new subject beyond the three R's of education:

> the art of signalling messages to others without directly

> stating what you mean? When are those in the sphere

> of education going to start this training (now whether

> its needed or not is another issue) for all in basic schooling?

>

>

[Guest guest]

Is there anyway for all students, both children and adults, to get such social

skills training as a basic requisite of education? Could someone like Neil still

get such social skills training, despite the lack of such training in his past?

Another question: Is there any input from people on the autistic spectrum as to

what constitutes " appropriateness " in social skills?

[Guest guest]

It would be good if such training could be available to all children, but

probably it's not, at least not in most places. Supposedly though,

neurotypical children learn these things naturally as they are growing up.

Some places do have social skills classes for Aspies--for instance, some are

available here in Seattle, WA. Maybe there are some available in Neil's

area too.

As far as appropriateness in social skills, do you appropriate to include in

a social skills class, or appropriate for a particular situation?

Norah

>

> Reply-To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 00:06:54 -0500

> To: <AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse >

> Subject: Re: " in **how** to give these signals "

>

> Is there anyway for all students, both children and adults, to get such social

> skills training as a basic requisite of education? Could someone like Neil

> still get such social skills training, despite the lack of such training in

> his past? Another question: Is there any input from people on the autistic

> spectrum as to what constitutes " appropriateness " in social skills?

>

>

[Guest guest]

Norah Willett dreamed lazily into the stars:

>It would be good if such training could be available to all children, but

>probably it's not, at least not in most places.

I've heard that as AS people focus on socialization, the positive aspects

of autism tend to fade as well as the (theoretically) negative social

issues. It's certainly what I ran into when I was over-socializing a few

years ago -- the intense enjoyment I felt at my perseverations and life in

general faded away and didn't return until I had been isolated long enough

to lose much of what I had learned. So if social skills training were made

available, I'd want to make sure that it was a case of voluntary informed

consent on the part of an older child, not something that could be forced

onto autistics by default.

DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

All power corrupts, but we need electricity. -- D.W.

[Guest guest]

That's a good point. But on the other hand, it might be easier to learn as

a child, and a child who didn't receive this training might have problems in

later life, such as in getting a job or maybe may be wanting to have friends

and not be able to. Such a person may be unhappy that such training was not

made available to them if it existed.

So it'd be hard to tell which would be best.... just because someone learned

these skills, would it mean they had to socialize aa lot if they didn't care

to? It'd be good to have the ability to, even if one didn't always want to.

And part of knowing how to socialize is knowing how to say no and gracefully

extract oneself from situations, including excessive socializing that one

doesn't want.

But that's just my opinion....I'm probably obsessed with socializing, or

with not being able to socialize, so I might be biased.

Norah

>

> Reply-To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 21:46:13 -0800

> To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Subject: Re: " in **how** to give these signals "

>

> I've heard that as AS people focus on socialization, the positive aspects

> of autism tend to fade as well as the (theoretically) negative social

> issues. It's certainly what I ran into when I was over-socializing a few

> years ago -- the intense enjoyment I felt at my perseverations and life in

> general faded away and didn't return until I had been isolated long enough

> to lose much of what I had learned. So if social skills training were made

> available, I'd want to make sure that it was a case of voluntary informed

> consent on the part of an older child, not something that could be forced

> onto autistics by default.

[Guest guest]

Norah Willett dreamed lazily into the stars:

>That's a good point. But on the other hand, it might be easier to learn as

>a child, and a child who didn't receive this training might have problems in

>later life, such as in getting a job or maybe may be wanting to have friends

>and not be able to. Such a person may be unhappy that such training was not

>made available to them if it existed.

I didn't say " not available " at all, I said that it should be up to the

individual. Someone that is totally incapable of getting a job will be

that way, most likely, due to issues way beyond the scope of social

training. Those with perseverative knowledge/skills can often rely on them

to obtain employment in which skillful socialization isn't a prerequisite.

>So it'd be hard to tell which would be best....

I think that forcing things upon someone, unless vital for survival or

basic education, is generally not the " best " option. :^)

> just because someone learned

>these skills, would it mean they had to socialize aa lot if they didn't care

>to?

It's the time invested in training that could screw up the positive

autistic traits at the get-go. The training itself, by logic, *would* be

socialization -- so instead of developing the ability to use AS traits in a

good way, the kid would be learning how to faintly emulate an NT. Go

forward 15 years till that same child is an adult and finally gets the

option to choose to not socialize -- they're then left without social

skills *and* lacking in the ability to use AS positively.

>It'd be good to have the ability to, even if one didn't always want to.

That much I can agree to, though in my case, the sacrifice of my AS traits

to learn or practice enough to keep the skills would be too great.

>And part of knowing how to socialize is knowing how to say no and gracefully

>extract oneself from situations, including excessive socializing that one

>doesn't want.

I don't think that the trouble saying " no " with autistics is necessarily a

case of poor social skills so much as that our brains often don't process

reality quickly enough to consider the question. If it takes me 20 seconds

to realize that I have been asked out for dinner, but the person has some

other trait active that implies that he/she is feeling " pleasantly hopeful "

I'll tend to agree to go out at the 10 second mark. That doesn't give me

time to think about what else I should be doing, what my other plans might

be, whether I'm feeling well, or anything else I really should be factoring

in before making a decision -- and on top of it, I'm agreeing without even

knowing what I've been asked to do. Training someone like me in a more

appealing method to accept/decline such invitations would only add on

another layer of distraction to deal with in figuring out what the words

being spoken actually mean.

If someone doesn't have processing issues that lead to mirroring

expectations or otherwise agreeing-without-intent, of course, then that's

not an issue. :^) In my case, however, the fewer " programs " my brain is

" running " when interacting with someone, the more I can focus on accurately

interpreting what is being said to me and responding honestly/appropriately

based on what I actually want.

DeGraf ~~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

" Too much of a good thing can make you crazy. "

-- Jethro Tull

[Guest guest]

> Is there anyway for all students, both children and adults, to get such

> social skills training as a basic requisite of education? Could someone

> like Neil still get such social skills training, despite the lack of

> such training in his past? Another question: Is there any input from

> people on the autistic spectrum as to what constitutes " appropriateness "

> in social skills?

I know that in my city the learning disabilities association offers social

skills classes for children with learning disabilities, but not for

adults.

Iris

Iris Gray, Puff, Calli and Munchkin

Proud to be Canuckistanian

Personal website: http://victoria.tc.ca/~rainbow/

Toastmasters website: http://victoria.tc.ca/Community/Bb/

[Guest guest]

I'd like to know what social skills training means.

I'm intelligent enough to know that I could hurt someone's feelings if I

disapprove of a gift, but should I agree with political and social viewpoint

just to conform to mainstream society. We live in a world where you can buy

media containing gratuitous violence and hardcore teen sex in many high

street stores, but it is unacceptable to take pictures of a school nativity

plays lest they be used by paedophiles. If one voices one's opposition to

military action over Iraq, it is automatically interpreted as support for

Saddam Hussein. Many people do not process logic, but merely respond to

triggers. So if the mass media advertises cool XBox shoot-em games, they

must be just harmless fun and big business doesn't want to harm us because

all media outlets say these games are just cool pursuits. But if some lonely

guy in the privacy of his own home views an unclad minor via a Website, he

could be arrested. Of course, he'd just be a fool, because he could just

hire a video with much more explicit scenes.

My point here is social signals tell us if something is acceptable or not,

but often logic has very little to do with it. What we are witnessing is a

long-term dumbing down trend, where everything that media-led mainstream

society deems okay is positive and we channel our anger against the latest

media-promoted pet peeves. I'm all in favour of social skills to reassure

the vulnerable, but not silence one's dissent with the powerful.

Neil

Re: " in **how** to give these signals "

> >

> >> It would have been nice if he could give you some help

> >> or training in **how** to give these signals, and to

> >> interpret those from others!!!

> >

> > Is that a new subject beyond the three R's of education:

> > the art of signalling messages to others without directly

> > stating what you mean? When are those in the sphere

> > of education going to start this training (now whether

> > its needed or not is another issue) for all in basic schooling?

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Neil Gardner wrote:

You've just hit the nail on its head. That's why anarchic communism is just

cloud cuckoo land. This doesn't stop me yearning for a simpler less

competitive world, but we should recognise basic human nature. Courting is

extremely competitive and we are not equally endowed with a sexy physique or

social skills. It may seem a simplification but women tend to go for men

with earning potential or a high social status. I bet there was a pecking

order even within a commune. Some may be intimiated by aggressively

assertive men and go for more caring types, hence the importance of

presentation. Everyone wants to be seen to be nice. Men tend to value

sexiness and sexual performance much more.

-----------Silly me, I've always thought a mental/creative connection with a

man was the biggest priority....hence the bulk of my relationships have been

with 'creative types' and not the best choices in terms of earning potential,

ha. The idea that one is supposed to 'use' ones' sexuality to 'hook' a

potential meal ticket seems completely appalling to me, but I suppose in a sense

it is smart especially if they are raising children. However I have no idea

how one would go about this, and hence I have no interest. If there's no

genuine mental/creative connection I can't force interest.

Nanne

[Guest guest]

Jane Meyerding danced around singing:

>Not only can I not detect that kind of thing, I can't

>even feel it myself. I am not " sexually attracted " to

>people. If anyone wants me to consider a sexual relation,

>s/he has to tell me so and give me time to process the

>idea. It's not something that is going on in me all the

>time under the surface, they way it seems to happen in

>many or most NTs.

The same here... I have learned a few rote things (like staring) that tell

me that someone might be interested, otherwise I still generally have no

clue. I can develop sexual interest in a person that I already have a

strong emotional connection with, but that takes months or years and

requires a whole lot more trust than I put in 99.9% of humanity. Without

those two elements already present in force, I remain basically asexual,

only aware of " male " or " female " as it relates to the size/shape of a

fully-clad body, not how it relates to intent or potential sexuality.

DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

All power corrupts, but we need electricity. -- D.W.

[Guest guest]

re appropriate social skills:

I suspect that needs to be individualized. I chose to learn a bit about

interpreting body language. I actually got fairly good in calm, one to one

situations. In emotional or group situations i cannot process fast enough for

this to be useful. the psych who was helping me agreed that to keep on pursuing

the issue was not really going to be of benefit. I do find that the things i

learned help me personally and professionally. I think i learned them

relatively easily because body language was my choice and i was highly

motivated. probably those are the keys to offering social skills based programs

for adults.

Message: 3

Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 00:06:54 -0500

Subject: Re: " in **how** to give these signals "

Is there anyway for all students, both children and adults, to get such social

skills training as a basic requisite of education? Could someone like Neil still

get such social skills training, despite the lack of such training in his past?

Another question: Is there any input from people on the autistic spectrum as to

what constitutes " appropriateness " in social skills?

[Guest guest]

Message: 3

Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 00:06:54 -0500

From: " "

Subject: Re: " in **how** to give these signals "

Is there anyway for all students, both children and adults, to get such social

skills training as a basic requisite of education? Could someone like Neil still

get such social skills training, despite the lack of such training in his past?

Another question: Is there any input from people on the autistic spectrum as to

what constitutes " appropriateness " in social skills?

----------Well, I think I've got it down pat by now that one doesn't fart,

belch, or pick ones' nose in public.

Nanne

[Guest guest]

All this talk of social skills training prompted me to tell you one of my

experiences with it.

As most of you know I work in a school for kid's with language disorders.

Pragmatics is an area most of our kids struggle with. Many are on the

spectrum there somewhere. Part of our curricullum is social skills.

Thankfully, most of what I teach are things that I have been able to 'figure

out' for myself, and it helps that the lesson plans are already written and

explicit.

One particular 'lesson' was on the topic of saying sorry to others. It

outlined situations where someone would need to apologise, then went on to

state what steps that person would take in order to apologise. Bear in mind

that this was for 5/6 yr olds, so if it seems simplified, it's because it

is. :-)

The steps were,

1. Say sorry

2. Look at the person

3. Say what you are sorry for (This one blew my mind!)

4. Try to fix the problem with the other person (Ditto for this one!)

So, if a person had accidentally knocked something over, they could say,

" Sorry for knocking that over! " and then pick it up.

This whole concept was like a lightbulb moment for me. I had picked up on

the saying sorry part - but the fixing the problem bit had totally eluded me

for 31 years!

As an aside - because I have AS, I felt quite justified in giving those

children with difficulties in looking at the other person other techniques

that they could use. Eg, look at their nose, look between the eyes. I

don't see any problem helping them overcome something that caused me

excrutiating difficulty as a child.

sandi

---

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

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[Guest guest]

>One particular 'lesson' was on the topic of saying sorry to others.

>It outlined situations where someone would need to apologise,

>then went on to state what steps that person would take in order

>to apologise.

Is there any way, Sandi, to get someone to apologise who admits

doing something, but feels no remorse whatsoever for the hurt

(including any physical, emotional, psychological, or financial hurt)

that this person might have caused by his/her actions or statements?

Some criminals have admitted doing the crime, but showed no remorse

at all for what they did. Even judges cannot seem to get these criminals

to say " I'm sorry " , look at the people who were hurt by their actions, say

what they are sorry for, and try to fix the problem with the other persons.

Is " punishment " an futile attempt to make them feel " so sorry " for what

they did?

[Guest guest]

" Well, I think I've got it down pat by now that one doesn't fart, belch, or

pick ones' nose in public.... "

You don't? ;-)

sandi

---

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Version: 6.0.431 / Virus Database: 242 - Release Date: 12/17/02

[Guest guest]

I think the act of saying sorry depends upon a feeling of remorse or

knowledge of wrongdoing. It relies upon the person understanding that what

they have done inconveniences or upsets the other person.

Saying sorry for something you don't care that has upset the other person or

you don't understand that has upset the other person will only ever be

words. There will never be any feeling behind those words. It requires a

theory of mind of understanding how those actions would affect the wrongdoer

if they happened to themselves.

Even with little children you can help them understand by helping them

interpret facial expressions and role playing. I am not sure what you could

do with criminals who refuse or are unable to understand that their actions

impacted on other people and that the other person has rights too. It seems

that criminals such as these are so highly egocentric that no other person

is 'real' to them. It occurs to me that maybe other cultures' attitude of

'an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth,' was one way around this...

sandi

---

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[Guest guest]

>

> Reply-To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 22:28:41 -0800

> To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Subject: Re: " in **how** to give these signals "

>

> I didn't say " not available " at all, I said that it should be up to the

> individual. Someone that is totally incapable of getting a job will be

> that way, most likely, due to issues way beyond the scope of social

> training. Those with perseverative knowledge/skills can often rely on them

> to obtain employment in which skillful socialization isn't a prerequisite.

But what about getting the job in the first place? I have heard of people

with AS who are either afraid to go on an interview, or who do not interview

well, and who have a very hard time finding jobs. Unless they have some

very outstanding abilities and have become very well-known in their field,

wouldn't lack of job-seeking skills be a problem?

>

>> So it'd be hard to tell which would be best....

>

> I think that forcing things upon someone, unless vital for survival or

> basic education, is generally not the " best " option. :^)

I think some basic social skills might actually BE necessary for survival.

At least recognizing danger from other people would be. I'm not saying the

person has to socialize, but at least know what to look out for!!!

>

>

> It's the time invested in training that could screw up the positive

> autistic traits at the get-go. The training itself, by logic, *would* be

> socialization -- so instead of developing the ability to use AS traits in a

> good way, the kid would be learning how to faintly emulate an NT. Go

> forward 15 years till that same child is an adult and finally gets the

> option to choose to not socialize -- they're then left without social

> skills *and* lacking in the ability to use AS positively.

OK, maybe not learning to be a quasi-NT. How about just learning how to

deal with people who one absolutely has to deal with in one's daily life,

such as bosses, people in the store, co-workers, neighbors, whatever, in an

effective manner so the person can get what they need. For instance, I've

heard some people with ASD's say they aren't very good at making phone

calls. (Myself included unless it's on the job). Phone calls are often

necessary to get what someone wants or needs. I'm not talking about social

things, but things like calling around to find the right doctor, or getting

someone to do some work on one's house. If one has someone else to make the

calls for them it's OK, but often that's not the case! What about survival

social skills for things like this? (Maybe " social " is the wrong term

here.)

>

>

>> And part of knowing how to socialize is knowing how to say no and gracefully

>> extract oneself from situations, including excessive socializing that one

>> doesn't want.

>

> I don't think that the trouble saying " no " with autistics is necessarily a

> case of poor social skills so much as that our brains often don't process

> reality quickly enough to consider the question. If it takes me 20 seconds

> to realize that I have been asked out for dinner, but the person has some

> other trait active that implies that he/she is feeling " pleasantly hopeful "

> I'll tend to agree to go out at the 10 second mark. That doesn't give me

> time to think about what else I should be doing, what my other plans might

> be, whether I'm feeling well, or anything else I really should be factoring

> in before making a decision -- and on top of it, I'm agreeing without even

> knowing what I've been asked to do. Training someone like me in a more

> appealing method to accept/decline such invitations would only add on

> another layer of distraction to deal with in figuring out what the words

> being spoken actually mean.

>

> If someone doesn't have processing issues that lead to mirroring

> expectations or otherwise agreeing-without-intent, of course, then that's

> not an issue. :^) In my case, however, the fewer " programs " my brain is

> " running " when interacting with someone, the more I can focus on accurately

> interpreting what is being said to me and responding honestly/appropriately

> based on what I actually want.

Yes, that certainly makes sense.

I guess then, that teaching kids with ASD's to socialize too much maybe

wouldn't be such a good idea, but some skills, maybe they shouldn't be

called social skills but survival skills, might be a good idea in my

opinion!

Norah

[Guest guest]

At 08:30 PM 12/20/02 -0800, Norah Willett wrote:

>I guess then, that teaching kids with ASD's to socialize too much maybe

>wouldn't be such a good idea, but some skills, maybe they shouldn't be

>called social skills but survival skills, might be a good idea in my

>opinion!

It could be argued that a well-functioning society *must* attempt to train

every child in the minimum skills required to obtain and keep a job. It's

one thing to talk about not touching the aspie mind but if society followed

that rule then they are gambling that the aspie mind can find suitable

employment in a decade and a half or so. It is not in society's best

interests to encourage a segment of the population to be an economic burden

on the society so all children must be educated and only those who turn out

to be uneducatable and thus unemployable will be supported by tax money

while the others will go on to become self-supporting.

[Guest guest]

> >One particular 'lesson' was on the topic of saying sorry to others.

> >It outlined situations where someone would need to apologise,

> >then went on to state what steps that person would take in order

> >to apologise.

>

> Is there any way, Sandi, to get someone to apologise who admits

> doing something, but feels no remorse whatsoever for the hurt

> (including any physical, emotional, psychological, or financial hurt)

> that this person might have caused by his/her actions or statements?

My ex-girlfriend used to blow up at me for no apparent reason. She would

get very angry and say hurtful things. When she cooled down she would

start to say she was sorry, but then she would say, " No, I'm not sorry! I

don't have to be sorry for getting angry. I have a right to be angry. " It

later occurred to me that even if she didn't have to be sorry for being

angry, she could at least say she was sorry for saying hurtful things.

Iris

Iris Gray, Puff, Calli and Munchkin

Proud to be Canuckistanian

Personal website: http://victoria.tc.ca/~rainbow/

Toastmasters website: http://victoria.tc.ca/Community/Bb/

[Guest guest]

At 09:06 PM 12/20/02 -0800, Iris M. Gray wrote:

>My ex-girlfriend used to blow up at me for no apparent reason. She would

>get very angry and say hurtful things. When she cooled down she would

>start to say she was sorry, but then she would say, " No, I'm not sorry! I

>don't have to be sorry for getting angry. I have a right to be angry. " It

>later occurred to me that even if she didn't have to be sorry for being

>angry, she could at least say she was sorry for saying hurtful things.

What I hate is when people say, " I'm sorry you were offended. " That's not

an apology at all. An apology would be, " I'm sorry I said something hurtful

to you " but " I'm sorry you were offended, " well, that's like how people say

" I'm sorry your dog died " when they didn't kill the dog and they're just

sorry to hear that you're sad. " I'm sorry you were offended " takes no

responsibility for being the cause of the offense.

(I'm sorry your ex-girlfriend used to do that. Sometimes people can't help

saying hurtful things but they *can* help whether they regret it later or

not. I agree -- everyone has the right to be angry, but caring people

apologize afterwards when they've let their anger take control of them and

try to learn to control their temper in the future to minimize collateral

damage.)

[Guest guest]

>It later occurred to me that even if she

>didn't have to be sorry for being angry,

> she could at least say she was sorry

>for saying hurtful things.

This reminded me of an incident once

when I approached a retail store at

closing time. The staff member in the

store saw me coming to the door, but

changed the sign immediately as I went

to open the door. The sign read:

" Sorry, We Are Closed " .

I thought, afterwards, that it should have read:

" We Are Not Sorry, But We Are Closed " .

[Guest guest]

Sometimes, if you're just in an informal gathering and someone voices an

opinion, it might be OK just to not say anything because you might not

change their opinion anyway and probably that person doesn't have any affect

on or power over whatever they're opining about anyway. But that doesn't

mean people shouldn't speak up to those in authority about things, such as

writing to people in the government and so on.

Norah

>

> Reply-To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:45:49 -0000

> To: <AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse >

> Subject: Re: " in **how** to give these signals "

>

> I'm intelligent enough to know that I could hurt someone's feelings if I

> disapprove of a gift, but should I agree with political and social viewpoint

> just to conform to mainstream society.

[Guest guest]

And men look for women who are physically attractive.

Norah

>

> Reply-To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 17:45:16 -0000

> To: <AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse >

> Subject: Re: " in **how** to give these signals "

>

> ou've just hit the nail on its head. That's why anarchic communism is just

> cloud cuckoo land. This doesn't stop me yearning for a simpler less

> competitive world, but we should recognise basic human nature. Courting is

> extremely competitive and we are not equally endowed with a sexy physique or

> social skills. It may seem a simplification but women tend to go for men

> with earning potential or a high social status. I bet there was a pecking

> order even within a commune. Some may be intimiated by aggressively

> assertive men and go for more caring types, hence the importance of

> presentation. Everyone wants to be seen to be nice. Men tend to value

> sexiness and sexual performance much more.

[Guest guest]

Hmm, I've wondered too. Next year when I can get the money together I " m

going to start taking a series of such classes for adults with Asperger's

that are given here, so I guess I'll get a chance to find out. I'll post

about them here.

Norah

>

> Reply-To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 05:05:30 -0800 (PST)

> To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Subject: Re: " in **how** to give these signals "

>

> -----I've often wondered how effective these social skills training courses/

> books really are. Certainly they can teach people how to act appropriately

> but I seriously doubt that the learning of social cues is something that can

> be applied effectively. I understand reading about social cues

> 'theoretically', but in the midst of being with people I still don't 'get'

> them if they are hinting or being subtle, only if they are being direct,

> plain.

>

> Nanne