Re: NTs, Trust, and Trauma...

[Guest guest]

Newstead wrote:

> I've had similar arguments with such people, but the ones I talk to

> seem to think NT's are " better " because they are more socially adept.

Not surprising, given the perseverative interest in socialization that NTs have.

Of

course these social beings are going to see their ability to be social beings as

an asset.

> Whenever I tell them how much I value the intellect and individual

> genius, they resort to the tired old saw about what a social idiot

> Einstein was. Oh, I see, Einstein would have been a better person if he

> had combed his hair and learned how to gab it up at a party? Never mind

> that he revolutionized physics.

No one ever won a Nobel Prize or became Time Magazine's Man of the Century for

being a

social butterfly.

That is the problem I have with so many NTs-- to them, the ability to blather

for hours

without really saying anything, to be comfortable in parties, et cetera, is more

important

than intellect, rationality, or anything that really matters in a societal

context.

Society is not moved forward by the sheeple that mindlessly go about their

business, like

the automatons they are, and engaging in recreational activities that are

designed to tax

the brain as little as possible, if not actually destroying it, incrementally.

Yeah,

they're better... and they would all be living in caves if people did not think

outside of

the norms... rather than " thinking " within the norms, which is typically about

things like

who has the best dance moves or what they thought of Jane's outfit at the

previous party.

> I think I know who the " idiot " really

> was. I think if certain NT's had their way, we'd all be one loving,

> sharing community--living in caves.

LOL! I had not read that line yet when I wrote about caves. And, your comment

there cut

very close to what NT brains are suited for-- a primitive, preverbal, tribal

kind of

existence. Without a verbal means of communication, there has to be a means to

ensure

cohesion of the tribe, which would be necessary for survival. There has to be a

means of

ascertaining what the others are thinking (or, more accurately, feeling).

Nonverbal

language and the need to conform (and to enforce conformity by any means

necessary) were

well suited to that kind of existence, and probably were necessary in the

survival of the

species. Our kind probably would not have survived in those days.

Now, though, we do not need unwritten rules of conduct, because we can create

written

rules. We do not need to enforce conformity, because conformity is no longer

necessary to

our survival... in fact, it can hinder it, when that need for conformity causes

strife and

sometimes war (typically on religious lines). We're not wolves; we do not need

to have a

" pack " mentality anymore.

Wolves use nonverbal language, social hierarchy (according to how mean or

aggressive is

the individual), and the innate desire to conform and to enforce conformity upon

others to

survive. They are much like our tribal ancestors... the whole social world is

the pack or

the tribe, and others are seen as the enemy. The fact that others from other

tribes or

packs may have different unwritten rules is irrelevant; there is relatively

little mixing.

But look at the contrast between humans and wolves... we have language that is

capable

of describing ideas and specific rules of conduct; we have laws and means to

enforce them;

we have words to express our emotions without having to be controlled by them,

as are

wolves and other pack animals. We do not live in tribes now... we are much more

individualized in the modern world. A neurology that specifies collective

purpose and

living, when one lives as an individual, is counterproductive. In other words,

NTs are

obsolete.

[Guest guest]

Newstead dreamed lazily into the stars:

>Oh, I see, Einstein would have been a better person if he

>had combed his hair and learned how to gab it up at a party? Never mind

>that he revolutionized physics.

The pro-social attitude drives me batty... I can't even count the number

of times I've heard NTs sneer at someone for not being extroverted or

overly concerned with appearance, then turn around to praise the latest

shallow icon. Ugh.

> I think I know who the " idiot " really

>was. I think if certain NT's had their way, we'd all be one loving,

>sharing community--living in caves.

*raises eyebrows*

If the NTs truly had their way, would *we* be here at all? Sure, they'd

all still be living in the trees, but my guess is they'd still be stoning

" different " humans to death if they could get away with it. ( " He got out

of the tree! He must be miserable down there -- quick, give him a merciful

death, keep him from producing any more freaks! " )

mustang@... ~~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness.

-- Terry Pratchett: 'Men At Arms'

[Guest guest]

> Newstead dreamed lazily into the stars:

> >Oh, I see, Einstein would have been a better person if he

> >had combed his hair and learned how to gab it up at a party? Never mind

> >that he revolutionized physics.

>

> The pro-social attitude drives me batty... I can't even count the number

> of times I've heard NTs sneer at someone for not being extroverted or

> overly concerned with appearance, then turn around to praise the latest

> shallow icon. Ugh.

I've been job-hunting recently because in my job I have four months

without work during the summer and didn't have enough in savings to live

on. I keep getting told that I have to " network " to find a job. I've been

told it's necessary to be social because the more " contacts " I have the

more likely I am to find someone who might know of a job opening.

My boyfriend said, " Tell everyone you socialize with that you're looking

for a job. " My response was, " I don't socialize. "

Iris

Iris Gray, Puff, Calli and Munchkin

Nature abhors a vacuum, but not as much as cats do.

Personal website: http://victoria.tc.ca/~rainbow/

Toastmasters website: http://victoria.tc.ca/Community/Bb/

[Guest guest]

At 02:13 PM 9/21/02 -0700, DeGraf wrote:

>A friend of mine just commented that NTs are " better " because (direct quote):

>1) Trust seems to come more easily to them

>2) They seem to handle emotional trauma better.

>

>Am I the only one thinking that neither of these would apply if they didn't

>abuse us in the first place? Or is it possible that we're lacking in those

>traits regardless?

I'm not sure. I do believe that we get a lot more emotional trauma heaped

on us because of our differences but I'm not so sure that we don't handle

emotional trauma well. When I compare how I've handled some of the traumas

in my life (death of a brother, death of a child, physical and emotional

abuse, rape, homelessness, losing my lifetime's possessions) to how I see

people around me (mainly NT) handling them, I tend to think that I handle

emotional trauma BETTER than most NTs. I pick up my life and move on but I

see so many people get stuck in the time and place of their great trauma

and live the rest of their life there.

[Guest guest]

Klein dreamed lazily into the stars:

>Now, though, we do not need unwritten rules of conduct, because we can

>create written

>rules. We do not need to enforce conformity, because conformity is no

>longer necessary to

>our survival... in fact, it can hinder it, when that need for conformity

>causes strife and

>sometimes war (typically on religious lines). We're not wolves; we do not

>need to have a

> " pack " mentality anymore.

Which leaves the perpetual question: we know this, but how do we convince

the NTs or even the NT-wannabe autistics? That is, how can we convince the

first group not to attack us and the second group to stop being

sheeple..? Or should we merely set an example for others and hope our

ranks grow?

mustang@... ~~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness.

-- Terry Pratchett: 'Men At Arms'

[Guest guest]

>stop being sheeple..?

" Sheeple " ! I love this word.

Iris

Iris Gray, Puff, Calli and Munchkin

Nature abhors a vacuum, but not as much as cats do.

Personal website: http://victoria.tc.ca/~rainbow/

Toastmasters website: http://victoria.tc.ca/Community/Bb/

[Guest guest]

At 09:00 PM 9/21/02 -0700, Iris M. Gray wrote:

>

>

>>stop being sheeple..?

>

> " Sheeple " ! I love this word.

And, amusingly enough, this is the first time I've seen a non-NT use the word.

I'm used to seeing it from self-righteous " alt " people alt-sex, goth, punk,

hippies -- groups of people struggling to be different by being exactly

like all the other people trying to be the same kind of different.

[Guest guest]

DeGraf wrote:

> Which leaves the perpetual question: we know this, but how do we convince

> the NTs or even the NT-wannabe autistics? That is, how can we convince the

> first group not to attack us and the second group to stop being

> sheeple..? Or should we merely set an example for others and hope our

> ranks grow?

It probably is not possible. They do not think they have a pack mentality; they

mistake

themselves for individuals at every opportunity. Most people are not going to

ever see us

as anything but broken versions of themselves; they only see the things that we

lack, not

the strengths.

Of course, I am generalizing, and whenever you generalize, there are always

going to be

exceptions. I know a number of NTs that think that upper-spectrum NTs are

fine... my

mother is my perennial example of this. Her boyfriend (common law husband,

really) of

about nine years is probably mildly AS, and over the last few days, she has been

excitedly

telling me about her dentist. You see, months ago, she told me how monotonic

his voice

was, and how he did not make eye contact... so I told her to ask him if he knew

about AS.

She did so a few days ago, and he asked her all these questions about AS,

which she

answered to the best of her ability. The guy is pretty obviously aspie...

despite his

good looks (my mother tells me) and his good job, he cannot seem to make

romantic

relationships work... he is very awkward and unsure of what to do. He has such

a poor

bedside manner (in the opinion of his patients) that several have threatened to

sue him,

while others have actually hurled things at him. He finds it hard to tolerate

chit chat

with his patients, and by the end of the day, he is so tired of being around

people that

he has to go and be alone the rest of the day.

My mother was getting quite a kick out of this... coming to me for some

descriptions of

AS, printing them, and driving 20 miles to his office to deliver them. She was

having

great fun discovering one of us. People like that are not the problem, though;

they are

not the ones that need to be set straight.

[Guest guest]

Sparrow Rose Cross dreamed lazily into the stars:

> > " Sheeple " ! I love this word.

>

>And, amusingly enough, this is the first time I've seen a non-NT use the word.

I think I stole it from alt.support.childfree but I could be wrong... Now

that you point it out, a NT saying it is an entertaining contradiction;

I've gotten used to just thinking of NTs as " sheeple " in general.

>I'm used to seeing it from self-righteous " alt " people alt-sex, goth, punk,

>hippies -- groups of people struggling to be different by being exactly

>like all the other people trying to be the same kind of different.

LOL, perfect description..! At least with autism, we're a wide spectrum of

Different, not all identically weird. *grin*

mustang@... ~~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness.

-- Terry Pratchett: 'Men At Arms'

[Guest guest]

Klein dreamed lazily into the stars:

>I know a number of NTs that think that upper-spectrum NTs are fine...

*snicker*

I just really liked the little typo in this sentence...yeah, I think some

upper-spectrum NTs are fine too, I even have one as a good friend. ;^)

mustang@... ~~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness.

-- Terry Pratchett: 'Men At Arms'

[Guest guest]

---- Original Message -----

To: " Autistic Spectrum TreeHouse "

<AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse >

Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 10:13 PM

Subject: NTs, Trust, and Trauma...

> A friend of mine just commented that NTs are " better " because (direct

quote):

> 1) Trust seems to come more easily to them

Trust comes to NTs more easily because most homo sapiens fall within the NT

spectrum. I always feel relieved when my interlocutor is odd in some way

(though usually not in my way) or unable to detect my oddity, which is of

course like all things relative.

> 2) They seem to handle emotional trauma better.

Only partially true, because NTs have a better support network and know they

can reintegrate better after they've overcome their temporary trauma. I told

off my 6 year old son together with two friends for spending his pocket

money on paper caps (the kind used for cap guns, but he has no toy guns) and

purposefully making ear-splitting noises (to which I'm hypersensitive) by

striking them with stones. I know his two friends egged him on, so I told

them they should know better and show more respect for their neighbours.

I've since had to endure psychological abuse from my NT-ish wife for

speaking my mind and alienating my son, while the other boys concerned have

continued to strike paper caps in their back garden and probably just think

I'm a weirdo they need not heed. For the umpteenth I've had to put with

stick for breaking a hidden rule. It's my fault for working from home and

being so hypersensitive.

Neil

> Am I the only one thinking that neither of these would apply if they

didn't

> abuse us in the first place? Or is it possible that we're lacking in

those

> traits regardless?

>

>

>

> mustang@... ~~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

> Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness.

> -- Terry Pratchett: 'Men At Arms'

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

DeGraf wrote:

> Klein dreamed lazily into the stars:

>

>>Now, though, we do not need unwritten rules of conduct, because we can

>>create written

>>rules. We do not need to enforce conformity, because conformity is no

>>longer necessary to

>>our survival... in fact, it can hinder it, when that need for conformity

>>causes strife and

>>sometimes war (typically on religious lines). We're not wolves; we do not

>>need to have a

>> " pack " mentality anymore.

>

>

> Which leaves the perpetual question: we know this, but how do we convince

> the NTs or even the NT-wannabe autistics? That is, how can we convince the

> first group not to attack us and the second group to stop being

> sheeple..? Or should we merely set an example for others and hope our

> ranks grow?

This sounds to me like sheep but of a different breed. I think if some

people want to be " sheeple " they should have just as much right to be

that as " we " do to not be that. Surely trying to convince NTs of how

their ways are outdated and useless is just as bad as them trying to

make autistics act like them?

CZ

[Guest guest]

Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 5:13 PM

> A friend of mine just commented that NTs are " better " because (direct

quote):

> 1) Trust seems to come more easily to them

> 2) They seem to handle emotional trauma better.

>

> Am I the only one thinking that neither of these would apply if they

didn't

> abuse us in the first place? Or is it possible that we're lacking in

those

> traits regardless?

>

>

Oh please! How many of us have trusted the " wrong " people over and over

again before we learned not to trust anyone? Trust used to come extremely

easily to me...and in many cases it still does. I've just developed a logic

routine to weed out the untrustworthy people.

And the handling emotional trauma better? Aren't we often the ones who are

criticized for not exhibiting appropriately dramatic emotional responses,

but treating them logically? Freaking out and falling apart (as so many NTs

do) is better?

If your friend had said that NTs are better at instinctively trusting the

right people and better at responding to " emotional trauma " in expected

ways, then I would agree. But to use those two abilities as some sort of

basis for an " I'm better than you are " statement is completely illogical.

Because, you know what? We are much better at logic than NTs ).

I don't think it's valid at all to make any sort of blanket statement about

even one person being " better than " another person. All people have

different skills and abilities. All people are exposed to different

opportunities and experiences.

[Guest guest]

Antryg Windrose dreamed lazily into the stars:

>This sounds to me like sheep but of a different breed. I think if some

>people want to be " sheeple " they should have just as much right to be

>that as " we " do to not be that. Surely trying to convince NTs of how

>their ways are outdated and useless is just as bad as them trying to

>make autistics act like them?

No, that's not what I meant. I was asking how we get NTs to stop attacking

*autistics* for not being like them. They can act any way they want -- I

merely want to find a way to help them learn to be more tolerant. I was

also asking how we can help autistics that have completely suppressed their

stims (as I once did) to learn that it is OK to be themselves.

mustang@... ~~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness.

-- Terry Pratchett: 'Men At Arms'

[Guest guest]

--- DeGraf wrote:?

>

> No, that's not what I meant. I was asking how we

> get NTs to stop attacking

> *autistics* for not being like them. They can act

> any way they want -- I

> merely want to find a way to help them learn to be

> more tolerant. I was

> also asking how we can help autistics that have

> completely suppressed their

> stims (as I once did) to learn that it is OK to be

> themselves.

>

Well...personally I can't say I hold out much hope for

neurotypicals learning to be tolerant. If it were

possible for them to have to exist for however short a

time in an environment dominated by ASD individuals,

then maybe there'd be some hope, but...since that's

not going to happen, and since the lack of tolerance

seems to be an unthinking gut reaction...I have to say

I'm not too hopeful about it. (repressed my stim

behaviours, too, btw, after my mother told me " don't

do that with your hands...people are going to think

there's something wrong with you " around age 9 or

so...and then picked up smoking around age 16,

probably in part as a replacement self-stimulatory

behaviour...be a lot better off if I hadn't, I think,

but I'm going to try to quit again...hopefully it'll

work this time...)(sorry...off on a tangent there)

Chris

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Handy dreamed lazily into the stars:

>(repressed my stim

>behaviours, too, btw, after my mother told me " don't

>do that with your hands...people are going to think

>there's something wrong with you " around age 9 or

>so...and then picked up smoking around age 16,

>probably in part as a replacement self-stimulatory

>behaviour...be a lot better off if I hadn't, I think,

>but I'm going to try to quit again...hopefully it'll

>work this time...)(sorry...off on a tangent there)

I wonder sometimes how many people, autistic or not, take up smoking for

precisely that kind of reason... I've never smoked, being a severe

asthmatic, but I have developed a physical addiction to caffeine several

times as it helps calm me down. Before I had Neurontin to fall back on, I

was very close to misusing my migraine medication for the same relaxing

effect. Luckily I stayed away from doing that for the most part.

When I was ~3 years old, I was punished repeatedly by teachers for

rocking-type stims, so I learned to always sit perfectly rigid with no

movement at all. My mother also used to tell me off for doing tiny odd

things like toe-walking or even for displaying that I was unhappy, so I

suppressed all of those too... I was a very anxious, aggressive kid as a

result -- I had no way to vent frustration or my other energy, leading me

to go directly from sitting quietly to exploding in uncontrolled

anger. Which, of course, was my fault for being " temperamental " and led to

still more punishment... Now that I have a few ways to deal with

increasing tension, I am exponentially calmer.

mustang@... ~~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness.

-- Terry Pratchett: 'Men At Arms'

[Guest guest]

--- DeGraf wrote:

>

> I wonder sometimes how many people, autistic or not,

> take up smoking for

> precisely that kind of reason... I've never smoked,

> being a severe

> asthmatic, but I have developed a physical addiction

> to caffeine several

> times as it helps calm me down. Before I had

> Neurontin to fall back on, I

> was very close to misusing my migraine medication

> for the same relaxing

> effect. Luckily I stayed away from doing that for

> the most part.

As I'm not currently on any prescribed meds, I

occasionally self-medicate with cannabis to acheive

the calming effect you speak of...it relaxes me, and

eliminates the problem of frustration building to

rage, as well. Also helps me sleep more

regularly...something I have a rather hard time

with...my mind simply doesn't shut itself off, and my

circadian rhythms have been extremely irregular for as

long as I can remember.

Of course, this sort of self-medication is

generally not medically advised, but in my opinion

cannabis seems to have some of the same beneficial

effects as some of the prescription meds without their

side effects...and in the case of some of them, the

risk seems to outweigh the potential benefit.

Chris

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Handy dreamed lazily into the stars:

>As I'm not currently on any prescribed meds, I

>occasionally self-medicate with cannabis to acheive

>the calming effect you speak of...it relaxes me, and

>eliminates the problem of frustration building to

>rage, as well.

I've considered going the same route, except I had no idea where I would

actually get any. Yes, despite living in California... :^/ I was fairly

desperate for something to drop my anxiety levels last year, otherwise I

wouldn't have even considered requesting another medication after Risperdal

set off a near-fatal asthma attack on the starter dose. I dropped my

psychopharmacologist as he wouldn't let me try anything other than

antipsychotics (Zyprexa, then Risperdal), was assigned to a nicer guy and

told him upfront that I refuse to take anything with a sedative effect.

> Also helps me sleep more

>regularly...something I have a rather hard time

>with...my mind simply doesn't shut itself off, and my

>circadian rhythms have been extremely irregular for as

>long as I can remember.

I naturally doze in 2-hour increments with my mind still going at full

speed for days or weeks on end, then crash for a few days, only to begin

the cycle again. I fix it with medication once in a while as after a few

weeks I start to feel quite a bit of neuro pain, but for the most part I

prefer to just let my body do what it feels like.

> Of course, this sort of self-medication is

>generally not medically advised, but in my opinion

>cannabis seems to have some of the same beneficial

>effects as some of the prescription meds without their

>side effects...and in the case of some of them, the

>risk seems to outweigh the potential benefit.

Yes, like the Risperdal that nearly killed me, the Zyprexa that did little

other than keep me from standing up for myself... I won't touch anything

like that again. I only accept Neurontin once in a while because it

doesn't do anything other than allow me to relax, much in the way I've

heard alcohol or cannabis might.

I'm reminded by this conversation that I did have a few stims during the 20

years I was suppressing my natural ones... Instead of harmlessly rocking

or pacing, I developed a tendency to remove all of the skin around my

fingernails/toenails, pull out hair, and strike myself. Yeah, great

improvement -- look totally normal around the NTs, then reduce my cuticles

to a bloody mess as soon as I was alone.

[Guest guest]

--- DeGraf wrote:

>

> I've considered going the same route, except I had

> no idea where I would

> actually get any. Yes, despite living in

> California... :^/

You might try one of the medical-MJ collectives, if

you're in the Bay Area, especially...

> I'm reminded by this conversation that I did have a

> few stims during the 20

> years I was suppressing my natural ones... Instead

> of harmlessly rocking

> or pacing, I developed a tendency to remove all of

> the skin around my

> fingernails/toenails, pull out hair, and strike

> myself. Yeah, great

> improvement -- look totally normal around the NTs,

> then reduce my cuticles

> to a bloody mess as soon as I was alone.

Reminds me that I developed a few myself...pulling

whiskers out of my chin by tweezing them between thumb

and forefinger, stroking my goatee (when I had one),

cracking my knuckles...for a while I pulled hairs out

of my eyebrows...made me look decidedly patchy in that

area...and at the moment I'm actually thinking of

getting a yo-yo as an excuse for stimming...heh...

Chris

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Handy dreamed lazily into the stars:

>You might try one of the medical-MJ collectives, if

>you're in the Bay Area, especially...

The government has been harassing & shutting down all the ones in the Bay

Area, so I don't quite consider it a safe thing to attempt just yet. Also,

chances are that I can't get a medical pass from my HMO to try it -- that's

more the sort of thing a private doctor would do, and I can't afford to see

anyone outside Kaiser.

>Reminds me that I developed a few myself...pulling

>whiskers out of my chin by tweezing them between thumb

>and forefinger, stroking my goatee (when I had one),

I used to stroke my own hair, cheeks, or forehead when I was completely

exhausted. I usually go to bed before I reach that point now -- the

stroking habit took place when I was being kept up all night by essays &

attempts to socialize.

>cracking my knuckles...

I was theorizing with a friend recently that cracking joints might actually

be a stim! I have never succeeded in cracking anything on purpose, but I

can see how it might function as a relaxation device.

>for a while I pulled hairs out

>of my eyebrows...made me look decidedly patchy in that

>area...

That's right -- I was an eyebrow & eyelash puller for quite a while, mostly

when I was very young and for a while in the worst part of

college. Thankfully I don't do that any more.

>and at the moment I'm actually thinking of

>getting a yo-yo as an excuse for stimming...heh...

Hmmm, that's a tempting idea. I used to have one when I was a girl, but

lacked the coordination to use it. What I often do instead is to take a

Koosh ball by the few looped strings and flap it back and forth or treat it

like a yo-yo. Now I'm wondering which of my office boxes my two Koosh

balls are at...

mustang@... ~~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness.

-- Terry Pratchett: 'Men At Arms'

[Guest guest]

> As I'm not currently on any prescribed meds, I

> occasionally self-medicate with cannabis to acheive

> the calming effect you speak of...it relaxes me, and

> eliminates the problem of frustration building to

> rage, as well. Also helps me sleep more

> regularly...something I have a rather hard time

> with...my mind simply doesn't shut itself off, and my

> circadian rhythms have been extremely irregular for as

> long as I can remember.

Does the marijuana help you sleep? I've been looking for something to help

me get a more restful sleep because no matter how many hours I spend in

bed I never feel rested. I was thinking of asking my doctor for a

prescription for amitrypiline, which is something recommended for people

who have fibromyalgia (which I do have.) I'd like to try cannabis but have

no idea where to get it and am kind of nervous about using something

illegal.

Iris

Iris Gray, Puff, Calli and Munchkin

Nature abhors a vacuum, but not as much as cats do.

Personal website: http://victoria.tc.ca/~rainbow/

Toastmasters website: http://victoria.tc.ca/Community/Bb/

[Guest guest]

>

> I developed a tendency to remove all of the skin around my

> fingernails

I do this too :-(

Iris

Iris Gray, Puff, Calli and Munchkin

Nature abhors a vacuum, but not as much as cats do.

Personal website: http://victoria.tc.ca/~rainbow/

Toastmasters website: http://victoria.tc.ca/Community/Bb/

[Guest guest]

Iris M. Gray dreamed lazily into the stars:

>I was thinking of asking my doctor for a

>prescription for amitrypiline, which is something recommended for people

>who have fibromyalgia (which I do have.)

I don't know anything about that drug or cannabis firsthand, but I do know

that my medication (Neurontin/Gabapentin) is also used to treat the

pain/exhaustion/sleep disorders that go with MS, fibromyalgia, lupus, as

well as epilepsy, bipolar disorder, and migraines. My mom is also on it

for her lupus & bipolar disorder, it has made a HUGE difference in her

ability to function -- she's out of the house and taking college classes

after ~15 years of being unable. So you might look into that one too...it

has no side effects or drug interactions according to all of my

research. Just a suggestion. :^)

mustang@... ~~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness.

-- Terry Pratchett: 'Men At Arms'

[Guest guest]

> Iris M. Gray dreamed lazily into the stars:

> >I was thinking of asking my doctor for a

> >prescription for amitrypiline, which is something recommended for people

> >who have fibromyalgia (which I do have.)

>

> I don't know anything about that drug or cannabis firsthand, but I do

> know that my medication (Neurontin/Gabapentin) is also used to treat the

> pain/exhaustion/sleep disorders that go with MS, fibromyalgia, lupus, as

> Just a suggestion. :^)

I will look into it. Thanks.

Iris

Iris Gray, Puff, Calli and Munchkin

Nature abhors a vacuum, but not as much as cats do.

Personal website: http://victoria.tc.ca/~rainbow/

Toastmasters website: http://victoria.tc.ca/Community/Bb/

[Guest guest]

I used to smoke tobacco but I never inhaled it and I would only smoke <5

really thin rolled cigarettes a day. It screwed with my respiratory

health badly but since I was in psychiatric hospitals for so long where

it is impossible to escape the stench of smoking even if you are not

doing it yourself and then when I got out of those places the air was

much cleaner even with me " smoking " myself I did not notice how badly it

had effected me until I quit earlier this year.

A few years ago I smoked marijuana as well and that badly effected my

asthma. If you are such a severe asthmatic that the sedation of

risperidone nearly killed you then I would say stay the hell away from

cannabis or any other inhaled smoke.

CZ

DeGraf wrote:

> Handy dreamed lazily into the stars:

>

>>As I'm not currently on any prescribed meds, I

>>occasionally self-medicate with cannabis to acheive

>>the calming effect you speak of...it relaxes me, and

>>eliminates the problem of frustration building to

>>rage, as well.

>

>

> I've considered going the same route, except I had no idea where I would

> actually get any. Yes, despite living in California... :^/ I was fairly

> desperate for something to drop my anxiety levels last year, otherwise I

> wouldn't have even considered requesting another medication after Risperdal

> set off a near-fatal asthma attack on the starter dose. I dropped my

> psychopharmacologist as he wouldn't let me try anything other than

> antipsychotics (Zyprexa, then Risperdal), was assigned to a nicer guy and

> told him upfront that I refuse to take anything with a sedative effect.

>

>

>> Also helps me sleep more

>>regularly...something I have a rather hard time

>>with...my mind simply doesn't shut itself off, and my

>>circadian rhythms have been extremely irregular for as

>>long as I can remember.

>

>

> I naturally doze in 2-hour increments with my mind still going at full

> speed for days or weeks on end, then crash for a few days, only to begin

> the cycle again. I fix it with medication once in a while as after a few

> weeks I start to feel quite a bit of neuro pain, but for the most part I

> prefer to just let my body do what it feels like.

>

>

>> Of course, this sort of self-medication is

>>generally not medically advised, but in my opinion

>>cannabis seems to have some of the same beneficial

>>effects as some of the prescription meds without their

>>side effects...and in the case of some of them, the

>>risk seems to outweigh the potential benefit.

>

>

> Yes, like the Risperdal that nearly killed me, the Zyprexa that did little

> other than keep me from standing up for myself... I won't touch anything

> like that again. I only accept Neurontin once in a while because it

> doesn't do anything other than allow me to relax, much in the way I've

> heard alcohol or cannabis might.

>

> I'm reminded by this conversation that I did have a few stims during the 20

> years I was suppressing my natural ones... Instead of harmlessly rocking

> or pacing, I developed a tendency to remove all of the skin around my

> fingernails/toenails, pull out hair, and strike myself. Yeah, great

> improvement -- look totally normal around the NTs, then reduce my cuticles

> to a bloody mess as soon as I was alone.

>

>

>

>

>

>