Just a tid bit.

[Guest guest]

To all

Just something interesting that's occured lately-observing LIVER

DISEASE...

I just can't believe how simple and easy it is to observe our ilness

in any hospital setting. This crazy medical belief ideology that

something amazing and that a finger can't be placed on what is wrong

with us with these ilnesses, is soooo screwed up.

Liver disease starts to give you encephalopathy/brain

fog/forgetfullness and eventually coma.The treatment that works is

enema's to reduce the toxic load. They prescribe lactulose to keep

things moving with norfloxacin to keep the bugs down. NO INFECTION

MIND YOU- yet the oppurtunistic bacteria ARE CAUSING TOXEMIA.Blood

cultures are also routine.

How many on these forums have got some warped liver readings and also

possably been diagnosed with fatty livers?Mind you a completly

stuffed liver can give you normal readings, so we shouldn't walk out

of our doctors offices with the words all your tests are normal

ringing in our ears, meaning too much.

There's a lot of people letting us down in these ilness's, especially

the so called specialists- as in a hospital setting what's occuring

on the 4th floor is completely ignored and oblivious to these

imbeciles, who for some strange reason take us up the garden path

into the never never.

You also get some well meaning researcher's observing our ilness- YET

THEY CAN " T UNDERSTAND THAT WE ARE TOXIC, AND THEY NEED TO GO AFTER

UNDERSTANDING THE TOXINS.

I feel we need people that understand things like peritonitis, that

is something that establishes in PID (pelvic inflammatory

disease).Notice they use the word inflammatory disease of the pelvis.

There's no-one on these forums that can truly say they don't have

inflammatory systems below the belt?All you need is an episode of

feels like fungus to understand you have INFLAMMATORY DISEASE. now

the next thing that NO doctor will diagnose in there 40 year career

is peri hepatitis. basically the inflammation slash Infection attacks

the liver. Now you won't believe that, but you may beli4eve it works

it's way up the peritomeun to give you peri- carditis, all those

heart symptoms no-one ever gets diagnosed as anything.

just something for you guys to chew on, as opposed to some conspiracy

theories.

[Guest guest]

Tony,

You have the same delusions as our newly elected French president: you keep thinking you have to state the obvious in a belligerent fashion as if everyone disagreed with you. So again allow me to say I AGREE WITH YOU (and I have been agreeing with you even BEFORE I knew you!) Infection-inflammation-toxins-encephalopathy

Nelly

[infections] Just a tid bit.

To allJust something interesting that's occured lately-observing LIVER DISEASE...I just can't believe how simple and easy it is to observe our ilness in any hospital setting. This crazy medical belief ideology that something amazing and that a finger can't be placed on what is wrong with us with these ilnesses, is soooo screwed up.Liver disease starts to give you encephalopathy/brain fog/forgetfullness and eventually coma.The treatment that works is enema's to reduce the toxic load. They prescribe lactulose to keep things moving with norfloxacin to keep the bugs down. NO INFECTION MIND YOU- yet the oppurtunistic bacteria ARE CAUSING TOXEMIA.Blood cultures are also routine.How many on these forums have got some warped liver readings and also possably been diagnosed with fatty livers?Mind you a completly stuffed liver can give you normal readings, so we shouldn't walk out of our doctors offices with the words all your tests are normal ringing in our ears, meaning too much.There's a lot of people letting us down in these ilness's, especially the so called specialists- as in a hospital setting what's occuring on the 4th floor is completely ignored and oblivious to these imbeciles, who for some strange reason take us up the garden path into the never never.You also get some well meaning researcher's observing our ilness- YET THEY CAN"T UNDERSTAND THAT WE ARE TOXIC, AND THEY NEED TO GO AFTER UNDERSTANDING THE TOXINS. I feel we need people that understand things like peritonitis, that is something that establishes in PID (pelvic inflammatory disease).Notice they use the word inflammatory disease of the pelvis. There's no-one on these forums that can truly say they don't have inflammatory systems below the belt?All you need is an episode of feels like fungus to understand you have INFLAMMATORY DISEASE. now the next thing that NO doctor will diagnose in there 40 year career is peri hepatitis. basically the inflammation slash Infection attacks the liver. Now you won't believe that, but you may beli4eve it works it's way up the peritomeun to give you peri- carditis, all those heart symptoms no-one ever gets diagnosed as anything.just something for you guys to chew on, as opposed to some conspiracy theories.

[Guest guest]

But Nelly, you need to expand YOUR view to what others are thinking, not just hold to your own perspective. 99% of the people on these forums DO NOT agree with you, and don't have a clue what Tony's going on about. If they did, we sure wouldn't be in this mess. And people wouldn't be wasting their time on ineffective supplements. And Tony, what you said the other day about sinus bacteria... I agree completely. I think it should be criminal that so many people are allowed to be chronically sick because of common, yet undetected infections like sinus infections that manifest as symptoms other than what is typically considered to be sinus related. Instead, everyone's off chasing their perennial windmills. I'm beginning to be much more aware of my own sinus situation since my surgery. Where I used to have no indicators at all, I'm now cognizant of how my sinuses affect the rest of my body and

how quickly mucous hardens into an almost impervious barrier to protect the infection. If I were to blow my nose under normal circumstances, I'd think there was nothing there, until I soften it up. The only way I can do that it is to continuously bombard it with betadine & salt water and xylitol to keep the mucous soft enough to expel it and kill the bugs. Otherwise, it hardens back up and I'm back to wondering why I'm experiencing constant headaches when my sinuses "seem" to be working just fine. However, as long as I keep my sinuses cleaned out, the headaches stay away and my fatigue levels are greatly reduced. I'm also now acutely aware of how the infection is traveling back and forth between my jaw and my sinuses. So simple, yet so few understand the relationship between a simple focal infection (sinus or elsewhere) and the wide array of symptoms it can

produce. Again, it's infuriating that doctors who see this on a daily basis still ignore their own eyes, as well as the studies and reports of so many other researchers who warn about bugs like staph and the impact they're beginning to have on society. SO sad that our own Tarello, and Newcastle University, have been saying staph is at the bottom of CFS for 10+ years. Even someone as well known and respected as Shoemaker, with his own concerns about staph, is continued to ignored by the majority. When will people finally open their eyes and realize the problem is pretty simple? It's obliterating the bugs that is tough. penny Nelly Pointis <janel@...> wrote: Tony, You have the same delusions as our newly elected French president: you keep thinking you have to state the obvious in a belligerent fashion as if everyone disagreed with you. So again allow me to say I AGREE WITH YOU (and I have been agreeing with you even BEFORE I knew you!) Infection-inflammation-toxins-encephalopathy Nelly [infections] Just a tid bit. To allJust something interesting that's occured lately-observing LIVER DISEASE...I just can't believe how simple and easy it is to observe our ilness in any hospital setting. This crazy medical belief ideology that something amazing and that a finger can't be placed on what is wrong with us with these

ilnesses, is soooo screwed up.Liver disease starts to give you encephalopathy/brain fog/forgetfullness and eventually coma.The treatment that works is enema's to reduce the toxic load. They prescribe lactulose to keep things moving with norfloxacin to keep the bugs down. NO INFECTION MIND YOU- yet the oppurtunistic bacteria ARE CAUSING TOXEMIA.Blood cultures are also routine.How many on these forums have got some warped liver readings and also possably been diagnosed with fatty livers?Mind you a completly stuffed liver can give you normal readings, so we shouldn't walk out of our doctors offices with the words all your tests are normal ringing in our ears, meaning too much.There's a lot of people letting us down in these ilness's, especially the so called specialists- as in a hospital setting what's occuring on the 4th floor is completely ignored and oblivious to these imbeciles, who for some strange reason

take us up the garden path into the never never.You also get some well meaning researcher's observing our ilness- YET THEY CAN"T UNDERSTAND THAT WE ARE TOXIC, AND THEY NEED TO GO AFTER UNDERSTANDING THE TOXINS. I feel we need people that understand things like peritonitis, that is something that establishes in PID (pelvic inflammatory disease).Notice they use the word inflammatory disease of the pelvis. There's no-one on these forums that can truly say they don't have inflammatory systems below the belt?All you need is an episode of feels like fungus to understand you have INFLAMMATORY DISEASE. now the next thing that NO doctor will diagnose in there 40 year career is peri hepatitis. basically the inflammation slash Infection attacks the liver. Now you won't believe that, but you may beli4eve it works it's way up the peritomeun to give you peri- carditis, all those heart symptoms no-one ever gets diagnosed as

anything.just something for you guys to chew on, as opposed to some conspiracy theories.

[Guest guest]

> It's obliterating the bugs that is tough.

Yes, obliterating the bugs is very tough and getting Tony to understand that he is preaching to the choir here is tough too; and making him get off his hobbyhorse and realising that there are many layers of all kinds of bugs might even be tougher still.

Sorry, I just don't have more energy to bother with "these" forums where people are not aware of infections, that's why I'm HERE, and that's why I object to Tony's raves. I didn't think I and I was one of "these" forums, is it?

Nelly

[infections] Just a tid bit.

To allJust something interesting that's occured lately-observing LIVER DISEASE...I just can't believe how simple and easy it is to observe our ilness in any hospital setting. This crazy medical belief ideology that something amazing and that a finger can't be placed on what is wrong with us with these ilnesses, is soooo screwed up.Liver disease starts to give you encephalopathy/brain fog/forgetfullness and eventually coma.The treatment that works is enema's to reduce the toxic load. They prescribe lactulose to keep things moving with norfloxacin to keep the bugs down. NO INFECTION MIND YOU- yet the oppurtunistic bacteria ARE CAUSING TOXEMIA.Blood cultures are also routine.How many on these forums have got some warped liver readings and also possably been diagnosed with fatty livers?Mind you a completly stuffed liver can give you normal readings, so we shouldn't walk out of our doctors offices with the words all your tests are normal ringing in our ears, meaning too much.There's a lot of people letting us down in these ilness's, especially the so called specialists- as in a hospital setting what's occuring on the 4th floor is completely ignored and oblivious to these imbeciles, who for some strange reason take us up the garden path into the never never.You also get some well meaning researcher's observing our ilness- YET THEY CAN"T UNDERSTAND THAT WE ARE TOXIC, AND THEY NEED TO GO AFTER UNDERSTANDING THE TOXINS. I feel we need people that understand things like peritonitis, that is something that establishes in PID (pelvic inflammatory disease).Notice they use the word inflammatory disease of the pelvis. There's no-one on these forums that can truly say they don't have inflammatory systems below the belt?All you need is an episode of feels like fungus to understand you have INFLAMMATORY DISEASE. now the next thing that NO doctor will diagnose in there 40 year career is peri hepatitis. basically the inflammation slash Infection attacks the liver. Now you won't believe that, but you may beli4eve it works it's way up the peritomeun to give you peri- carditis, all those heart symptoms no-one ever gets diagnosed as anything.just something for you guys to chew on, as opposed to some conspiracy theories.

[Guest guest]

Hey Tony,

On a lighter note, or perhaps not, if you think we should all be

worried about our liver why are you at the pub? Perhaps life is too

short to always be worried about our liver, right?

a Carnes

> To all

> Just something interesting that's occured lately-observing LIVER

> DISEASE...

> I just can't believe how simple and easy it is to observe our ilness

> in any hospital setting. This crazy medical belief ideology that

> something amazing and that a finger can't be placed on what is wrong

> with us with these ilnesses, is soooo screwed up.

> Liver disease starts to give you encephalopathy/brain

> fog/forgetfullness and eventually coma.

[Guest guest]

I don't think that's the point. pennypjeanneus <pj7@...> wrote: Hey Tony,On a lighter note, or perhaps not, if you think we should all be worried about our liver why are you at the pub? Perhaps life is too short to always be worried about our liver, right?a Carnes> To all> Just something interesting that's occured lately-observing LIVER > DISEASE...> I just can't believe how simple and easy it is to observe our ilness >

in any hospital setting. This crazy medical belief ideology that > something amazing and that a finger can't be placed on what is wrong > with us with these ilnesses, is soooo screwed up.> Liver disease starts to give you encephalopathy/brain > fog/forgetfullness and eventually coma.

[Guest guest]

Yes, but the reason this forum is here in part is to inform others. And new people join every day and this stuff is ALL new to them. So you personally should just ignore Tony, but let him keep screaming so that other people may start to catch on. Just one person getting it is better than none. pennyNelly Pointis <janel@...> wrote: > It's obliterating the bugs

that is tough. Yes, obliterating the bugs is very tough and getting Tony to understand that he is preaching to the choir here is tough too; and making him get off his hobbyhorse and realising that there are many layers of all kinds of bugs might even be tougher still. Sorry, I just don't have more energy to bother with "these" forums where people are not aware of infections, that's why I'm HERE, and that's why I object to Tony's raves. I didn't think I and I was one of "these" forums, is it? Nelly [infections] Just a tid bit. To allJust something interesting that's occured lately-observing LIVER

DISEASE...I just can't believe how simple and easy it is to observe our ilness in any hospital setting. This crazy medical belief ideology that something amazing and that a finger can't be placed on what is wrong with us with these ilnesses, is soooo screwed up.Liver disease starts to give you encephalopathy/brain fog/forgetfullness and eventually coma.The treatment that works is enema's to reduce the toxic load. They prescribe lactulose to keep things moving with norfloxacin to keep the bugs down. NO INFECTION MIND YOU- yet the oppurtunistic bacteria ARE CAUSING TOXEMIA.Blood cultures are also routine.How many on these forums have got some warped liver readings and also possably been diagnosed with fatty livers?Mind you a completly stuffed liver can give you normal readings, so we shouldn't walk out of our doctors offices with the words all your tests are normal ringing in our ears, meaning too

much.There's a lot of people letting us down in these ilness's, especially the so called specialists- as in a hospital setting what's occuring on the 4th floor is completely ignored and oblivious to these imbeciles, who for some strange reason take us up the garden path into the never never.You also get some well meaning researcher's observing our ilness- YET THEY CAN"T UNDERSTAND THAT WE ARE TOXIC, AND THEY NEED TO GO AFTER UNDERSTANDING THE TOXINS. I feel we need people that understand things like peritonitis, that is something that establishes in PID (pelvic inflammatory disease).Notice they use the word inflammatory disease of the pelvis. There's no-one on these forums that can truly say they don't have inflammatory systems below the belt?All you need is an episode of feels like fungus to understand you have INFLAMMATORY DISEASE. now the next thing that NO doctor will diagnose in there 40 year career is

peri hepatitis. basically the inflammation slash Infection attacks the liver. Now you won't believe that, but you may beli4eve it works it's way up the peritomeun to give you peri- carditis, all those heart symptoms no-one ever gets diagnosed as anything.just something for you guys to chew on, as opposed to some conspiracy theories.

[Guest guest]

Plus Nelly, you have to keep this in front of people's faces for them to start integrating it into their own realm of understanding and possibility. For example, a post was made the other day about new research regarding staph. If we didn't go on about it all the time, perhaps it would have gone completely unnoticed. People do check in here on a regular basis, and over time, it may start adding up to some of them. You know how they say a person has to see or hear an ad 12 times before they actually "hear" it? That's sort of the boat we're in I'm afraid. It may feel like a dead horse to you, but to others, they're just starting to get a whiff that all is not right with the horse. penny

[Guest guest]

Besides, if I could drink, I probably would, considering what I've been through. Life IS short. Might as well have a good time, right? ;-) penny Penny Houle <pennyhoule@...> wrote: I don't think that's the point. pennypjeanneus <pj7@...> wrote: Hey

Tony,On a lighter note, or perhaps not, if you think we should all be worried about our liver why are you at the pub? Perhaps life is too short to always be worried about our liver, right?a Carnes> To all> Just something interesting that's occured lately-observing LIVER > DISEASE...> I just can't believe how simple and easy it is to observe our ilness > in any hospital setting. This crazy medical belief ideology that > something amazing and that a finger can't be placed on what is wrong > with us with these ilnesses, is soooo screwed up.> Liver disease starts to give you encephalopathy/brain > fog/forgetfullness and eventually coma.

[Guest guest]

a

I think the diagnosis of fatty liver in my own case is an important

factor.So what I focus on is bustintg my gut playing soccer against

university students on the weekends and pushing the fatty deposits at

training during the week.I tend to think the biggest looser bust the

gut approach is an important step to possably getting all your organs

functioninmg better.

the other thing I observe with my piss pot friends is that they may

trash themselves on the weekends, but after a couple of days they

look and function absolutely pristine.Basically when you challenge

your body, as in pregnancy, you may discover pockets of crap that

need to be expelled(vomiting), hence these people are recovering to

remarkably better places.I personally have fun and am nowhere near

the extreme end of alcohol abuse.I couldn't afford it either.

but again my whole observation is that what is occuring with many of

us, is occuring in hospital settings constantly and shouldn't

surprise anyone.Also nor should we be preached to by people like rich

supporting theories that something surprising and unusual is occuring

and it's obviously genetic.

>

> Hey Tony,

> On a lighter note, or perhaps not, if you think we should all be

> worried about our liver why are you at the pub? Perhaps life is too

> short to always be worried about our liver, right?

>

> a Carnes

>

>

> > To all

> > Just something interesting that's occured lately-observing LIVER

> > DISEASE...

> > I just can't believe how simple and easy it is to observe our

ilness

> > in any hospital setting. This crazy medical belief ideology that

> > something amazing and that a finger can't be placed on what is

wrong

> > with us with these ilnesses, is soooo screwed up.

> > Liver disease starts to give you encephalopathy/brain

> > fog/forgetfullness and eventually coma.

>

[Guest guest]

Nelly

Your reactions to this topic, 'which is TOTALLY UNCHARTERED', is a

little off key. BUT, this basically doesn't surprise m,e because over

at the lyme forum you show this same off key attack on many other

posters.

So when you rant and rave that you believe what I'm saying and I'm

treating you like a dickhead- our latest members focused on

nutritional aspects of not starting the cascade of ilness may also

focus on not feeding themselves foods that may promote toxic

activitions..SUGAR COMES TO MIND.

> Tony,

>

> You have the same delusions as our newly elected French

president: you keep thinking you have to state the obvious in a

belligerent fashion as if everyone disagreed with you. So again allow

me to say I AGREE WITH YOU (and I have been agreeing with you even

BEFORE I knew you!) Infection-inflammation-toxins-encephalopathy

>

> Nelly

> [infections] Just a tid bit.

>

>

> To all

> Just something interesting that's occured lately-observing LIVER

> DISEASE...

> I just can't believe how simple and easy it is to observe our

ilness

> in any hospital setting. This crazy medical belief ideology that

> something amazing and that a finger can't be placed on what is

wrong

> with us with these ilnesses, is soooo screwed up.

> Liver disease starts to give you encephalopathy/brain

> fog/forgetfullness and eventually coma.The treatment that works is

> enema's to reduce the toxic load. They prescribe lactulose to keep

> things moving with norfloxacin to keep the bugs down. NO INFECTION

> MIND YOU- yet the oppurtunistic bacteria ARE CAUSING TOXEMIA.Blood

> cultures are also routine.

> How many on these forums have got some warped liver readings and

also

> possably been diagnosed with fatty livers?Mind you a completly

> stuffed liver can give you normal readings, so we shouldn't walk

out

> of our doctors offices with the words all your tests are normal

> ringing in our ears, meaning too much.

> There's a lot of people letting us down in these ilness's,

especially

> the so called specialists- as in a hospital setting what's occuring

> on the 4th floor is completely ignored and oblivious to these

> imbeciles, who for some strange reason take us up the garden path

> into the never never.

> You also get some well meaning researcher's observing our ilness-

YET

> THEY CAN " T UNDERSTAND THAT WE ARE TOXIC, AND THEY NEED TO GO AFTER

> UNDERSTANDING THE TOXINS.

> I feel we need people that understand things like peritonitis, that

> is something that establishes in PID (pelvic inflammatory

> disease).Notice they use the word inflammatory disease of the

pelvis.

> There's no-one on these forums that can truly say they don't have

> inflammatory systems below the belt?All you need is an episode of

> feels like fungus to understand you have INFLAMMATORY DISEASE. now

> the next thing that NO doctor will diagnose in there 40 year career

> is peri hepatitis. basically the inflammation slash Infection

attacks

> the liver. Now you won't believe that, but you may beli4eve it

works

> it's way up the peritomeun to give you peri- carditis, all those

> heart symptoms no-one ever gets diagnosed as anything.

> just something for you guys to chew on, as opposed to some

conspiracy

> theories.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Penny

That was an interesting point about something sinking in after 12

attempts.I spent 20 years teaching people how to go about fault

finding and it's basically engrained in me to try and explain the

same thing from many angles until I observe the light globe go on in

someone.

So this may be a trait that I developed that doesn't agree with

many.But when your in the field training people it becomes a major

part of your own make up unfortunately.

>

> Plus Nelly, you have to keep this in front of people's faces for

them to start integrating it into their own realm of understanding

and possibility. For example, a post was made the other day about new

research regarding staph. If we didn't go on about it all the time,

perhaps it would have gone completely unnoticed. People do check in

here on a regular basis, and over time, it may start adding up to

some of them. You know how they say a person has to see or hear an ad

12 times before they actually " hear " it? That's sort of the boat

we're in I'm afraid. It may feel like a dead horse to you, but to

others, they're just starting to get a whiff that all is not right

with the horse.

>

> penny

>

[Guest guest]

Yeah, many years ago I actually worked in advertising (I'm sorry to say). And it's a well known prinicple that running an ad less than 12 times is a waste of money. It's an extremely rare ad that will catch someone's full attention the first time out the gate. And it's a pretty rare person who will take interest in something new or completely different from what they're used to. Those people are usually our trend setters. But they often meet a ton of resistance in the beginning. And it takes a special quality to influence or persuade others to go along. There's all kinds of reasons people don't latch on immediately to what we're trying to say here. Part is the way it's presented to them, part is a natural resistance to being told anything, and part is conditioning. A big part is conditioning. Our doctors are the biggest example of that. They're regular little

pavlov dogs, they are. Ring the bell, and they'll hand you a psychosomatic dx quicker than you can blink. The good news is, I'm seeing at least a little movement. It's a very slow shift. But more and more docs are including chronic infections in their overall diagnoses. Their treatment may fall short, but at least they're acknowledging them. Just the other day, Sherri sent me the name of an L.A. doc to see if I'd heard of him. He specializes in hormonal balancing for people with thyroid & adrenal issues. And right there on his website's list of causes of hormonal imbalances was "chronic infections". That's a little step in the right direction. penny dumbaussie2000 <dumbaussie2000@...> wrote: Penny That was an interesting point about something sinking in after 12 attempts.I spent 20 years teaching people how to go about fault finding and it's basically engrained in me to try and explain the same thing from many angles until I observe the light globe go on in someone. So this may be a trait that I developed that doesn't agree with many.But when your in the field training people it becomes a major part of your own make up unfortunately.--- In infections , Penny Houle <pennyhoule@...>

wrote:>> Plus Nelly, you have to keep this in front of people's faces for them to start integrating it into their own realm of understanding and possibility. For example, a post was made the other day about new research regarding staph. If we didn't go on about it all the time, perhaps it would have gone completely unnoticed. People do check in here on a regular basis, and over time, it may start adding up to some of them. You know how they say a person has to see or hear an ad 12 times before they actually "hear" it? That's sort of the boat we're in I'm afraid. It may feel like a dead horse to you, but to others, they're just starting to get a whiff that all is not right with the horse.> > penny>

[Guest guest]

Penny

Just the way I'm programmed for the past couple of decades. I'm

expecting to cover something from as many angles as possable so that

whoever it may be, gets it-Unfortunately this doesn't seem to occur,

as everyone wants(for some reason) and feels it needs to be a complex

ilness.So I truly from experience don't believe too many people are

getting the message, otherwise there'd be 300 posts a day.And as you

can obviously see the people working closely and scientifically with

this ilness have been turned away from it.The heroes still seem to be

the ones doing the expensive tests, with pathetic sciences.Not to

mention the 1000 dollar consultations.And the part that angers is

that these so called experts don't even realise that everyuone of the

patients they see have a sinus infection.Our own s is going to

fall backwards in her chair when she's told that she has a sinus

infection bigger than texas.IMO I feel people have to go back and

rethink the episode that tipped them over the edge- more often than

not it's only ONE THING- WE ALL ONLY HAVE A SINGLE PROBLEM, NOT A

COMPLICATED SET OF EVENTS.

tony

> >

> > Plus Nelly, you have to keep this in front of people's faces for

> them to start integrating it into their own realm of understanding

> and possibility. For example, a post was made the other day about

new

> research regarding staph. If we didn't go on about it all the time,

> perhaps it would have gone completely unnoticed. People do check in

> here on a regular basis, and over time, it may start adding up to

> some of them. You know how they say a person has to see or hear an

ad

> 12 times before they actually " hear " it? That's sort of the boat

> we're in I'm afraid. It may feel like a dead horse to you, but to

> others, they're just starting to get a whiff that all is not right

> with the horse.

> >

> > penny

> >

>