Guest guest Posted April 3, 2008 Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 My dog had bad breath for years and she has a broken tooth. We think someone kicked her, she was terrifed of walking past shoes when we found her 10 years ago. I checked her teeth the other day and her upper right back grinders were all encrusted with tartar. Really covered, and the gums were red. I went to Ebay and found a set of dental picks. I laid her down and she trusted me to be gentle and I carefully began to pick away at it. It took several sessions over the course of 3 days, but it was so cool when the first big piece just flew off and landed on the floor. I managed to get it all off. Sometimes I had to give her a rubber type bone to put in her mouth to open it a little. Her breath is much better. She gets chlorophyll every day in her food, I add spirulina to the recipes. She and the other dog get home cooked meals twice a day and home made doggie biscuits. Mornings it is oats, green beans and eggs with chicken broth. Evenings it is brown rice that has been ground into grits, a veggie mix of carrot, celery, peas, garlic and tomatoes and tuna fish or once in awhile turkey. THey get fish oil and EVOO (extra virgin olive oil), ground flax seeds, calcium and veggie pet yeast in their meals. Since taking them off commercial pet food their health visibly improved. The older dog also get raw organic cabbage, it's good for the eyes. It removed cataracts from our other dog when he was 10, and the homecooked meals healed his arthritis and made him act 5 years younger. Cheers! You can see my pups at vegepet.com, page 4 of the stories and pics. Patches and Shanti. We fed them totally veggie for several years, then decided it was just too much soy. So now we use other things besides soy, but there is still soy in their biskits. <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=11952103/grpspId=1705060814/ msgId=4816/stime=1207237407/nc1=5191948/nc2=5191951/nc3=3848642> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2008 Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 Those dogs are better feeded than most humans. Den 04/04/2008 kl. 01.09 skrev Kathy Wenger: > My dog had bad breath for years and she has a broken tooth. > We think someone kicked her, she was terrifed of walking past shoes > when > we found her 10 years ago. > I checked her teeth the other day and her upper right back grinders > were > all encrusted with tartar. Really covered, and the gums were red. > > I went to Ebay and found a set of dental picks. > I laid her down and she trusted me to be gentle and I carefully > began to > pick away at it. > > It took several sessions over the course of 3 days, but it was so cool > when the first big piece just flew off and landed on the floor. > I managed to get it all off. Sometimes I had to give her a rubber type > bone to put in her mouth to open it a little. > > Her breath is much better. > > She gets chlorophyll every day in her food, I add spirulina to the > recipes. > She and the other dog get home cooked meals twice a day and home made > doggie biscuits. > Mornings it is oats, green beans and eggs with chicken broth. > Evenings it is brown rice that has been ground into grits, a veggie > mix > of carrot, celery, peas, garlic and tomatoes and tuna fish or once in > awhile turkey. > THey get fish oil and EVOO (extra virgin olive oil), ground flax > seeds, > calcium and veggie pet yeast in their meals. > > Since taking them off commercial pet food their health visibly > improved. > The older dog also get raw organic cabbage, it's good for the eyes. > It removed cataracts from our other dog when he was 10, and the > homecooked meals healed his arthritis and made him act 5 years > younger. > > Cheers! > > You can see my pups at vegepet.com, page 4 of the stories and pics. > Patches and Shanti. We fed them totally veggie for several years, then > decided it was just too much soy. So now we use other things besides > soy, but there is still soy in their biskits. > > > <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=11952103/grpspId=1705060814/ > msgId=4816/stime=1207237407/nc1=5191948/nc2=5191951/nc3=3848642> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2008 Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 jus try to learn very new at this so please bear with me. i say that to say this i have read some were that garlic can kill a dog is this fact or myth? Kenn sen wrote: Those dogs are better feeded than most humans. Den 04/04/2008 kl. 01.09 skrev Kathy Wenger: > My dog had bad breath for years and she has a broken tooth. > We think someone kicked her, she was terrifed of walking past shoes > when > we found her 10 years ago. > I checked her teeth the other day and her upper right back grinders > were > all encrusted with tartar. Really covered, and the gums were red. > > I went to Ebay and found a set of dental picks. > I laid her down and she trusted me to be gentle and I carefully > began to > pick away at it. > > It took several sessions over the course of 3 days, but it was so cool > when the first big piece just flew off and landed on the floor. > I managed to get it all off. Sometimes I had to give her a rubber type > bone to put in her mouth to open it a little. > > Her breath is much better. > > She gets chlorophyll every day in her food, I add spirulina to the > recipes. > She and the other dog get home cooked meals twice a day and home made > doggie biscuits. > Mornings it is oats, green beans and eggs with chicken broth. > Evenings it is brown rice that has been ground into grits, a veggie > mix > of carrot, celery, peas, garlic and tomatoes and tuna fish or once in > awhile turkey. > THey get fish oil and EVOO (extra virgin olive oil), ground flax > seeds, > calcium and veggie pet yeast in their meals. > > Since taking them off commercial pet food their health visibly > improved. > The older dog also get raw organic cabbage, it's good for the eyes. > It removed cataracts from our other dog when he was 10, and the > homecooked meals healed his arthritis and made him act 5 years > younger. > > Cheers! > > You can see my pups at vegepet.com, page 4 of the stories and pics. > Patches and Shanti. We fed them totally veggie for several years, then > decided it was just too much soy. So now we use other things besides > soy, but there is still soy in their biskits. > > > <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=11952103/grpspId=1705060814/ > msgId=4816/stime=1207237407/nc1=5191948/nc2=5191951/nc3=3848642> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2008 Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 Norm, it's probably a myth. My dog (8lbs) is given garlic almost daily. And she enjoys it as much as a piece of chicken. I'm not sure, but I think it keeps intestinal parasites at bay. Jim --- norm donatien wrote: > jus try to learn very new at this so please bear > with me. i say that to say this i have read some > were that garlic can kill a dog is this fact or > myth? > > Kenn sen wrote: > Those dogs are better feeded than most humans. > > Den 04/04/2008 kl. 01.09 skrev Kathy Wenger: > > > My dog had bad breath for years and she has a > broken tooth. > > We think someone kicked her, she was terrifed of > walking past shoes > > when > > we found her 10 years ago. > > I checked her teeth the other day and her upper > right back grinders > > were > > all encrusted with tartar. Really covered, and the > gums were red. > > > > I went to Ebay and found a set of dental picks. > > I laid her down and she trusted me to be gentle > and I carefully > > began to > > pick away at it. > > > > It took several sessions over the course of 3 > days, but it was so cool > > when the first big piece just flew off and landed > on the floor. > > I managed to get it all off. Sometimes I had to > give her a rubber type > > bone to put in her mouth to open it a little. > > > > Her breath is much better. > > > > She gets chlorophyll every day in her food, I add > spirulina to the > > recipes. > > She and the other dog get home cooked meals twice > a day and home made > > doggie biscuits. > > Mornings it is oats, green beans and eggs with > chicken broth. > > Evenings it is brown rice that has been ground > into grits, a veggie > > mix > > of carrot, celery, peas, garlic and tomatoes and > tuna fish or once in > > awhile turkey. > > THey get fish oil and EVOO (extra virgin olive > oil), ground flax > > seeds, > > calcium and veggie pet yeast in their meals. > > > > Since taking them off commercial pet food their > health visibly > > improved. > > The older dog also get raw organic cabbage, it's > good for the eyes. > > It removed cataracts from our other dog when he > was 10, and the > > homecooked meals healed his arthritis and made him > act 5 years > > younger. > > > > Cheers! > > > > You can see my pups at vegepet.com, page 4 of the > stories and pics. > > Patches and Shanti. We fed them totally veggie for > several years, then > > decided it was just too much soy. So now we use > other things besides > > soy, but there is still soy in their biskits. > > > > > > > <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=11952103/grpspId=1705060814/ > > > msgId=4816/stime=1207237407/nc1=5191948/nc2=5191951/nc3=3848642> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one > month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > ________________________________________________________________________________\ ____ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2008 Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 http://www.sojos.com/garlicarticle.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2008 Report Share Posted April 4, 2008 > Since taking them off commercial pet food their health visibly > improved. Take them off the artifical (cooked, mostly vegetarian) food and their health would get even better. Dogs (and cats) are primarily rawfood carnivores... and I said primarily. Yes, the can and will eat *some* non animal products occasionally in their natural environment, but that is only incidental... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2008 Report Share Posted April 4, 2008 http://members.tripod.com/%7EBarefoot_Lass/pets.html The above is the link to a website explaining the WHY of garlic, onion poisoning for pets, and grapes & raisins as well as scads of other pet tips and remedies such as the potty-train your puppy to ring a bell when it needs to go out ... her site also has ALL kinds of other household tips remedies etc. > > Those dogs are better feeded than most humans. > > > > Den 04/04/2008 kl. 01.09 skrev Kathy Wenger: > > > > > My dog had bad breath for years and she has a > > broken tooth. > > > We think someone kicked her, she was terrifed of > > walking past shoes > > > when > > > we found her 10 years ago. > > > I checked her teeth the other day and her upper > > right back grinders > > > were > > > all encrusted with tartar. Really covered, and the > > gums were red. > > > > > > I went to Ebay and found a set of dental picks. > > > I laid her down and she trusted me to be gentle > > and I carefully > > > began to > > > pick away at it. > > > > > > It took several sessions over the course of 3 > > days, but it was so cool > > > when the first big piece just flew off and landed > > on the floor. > > > I managed to get it all off. Sometimes I had to > > give her a rubber type > > > bone to put in her mouth to open it a little. > > > > > > Her breath is much better. > > > > > > She gets chlorophyll every day in her food, I add > > spirulina to the > > > recipes. > > > She and the other dog get home cooked meals twice > > a day and home made > > > doggie biscuits. > > > Mornings it is oats, green beans and eggs with > > chicken broth. > > > Evenings it is brown rice that has been ground > > into grits, a veggie > > > mix > > > of carrot, celery, peas, garlic and tomatoes and > > tuna fish or once in > > > awhile turkey. > > > THey get fish oil and EVOO (extra virgin olive > > oil), ground flax > > > seeds, > > > calcium and veggie pet yeast in their meals. > > > > > > Since taking them off commercial pet food their > > health visibly > > > improved. > > > The older dog also get raw organic cabbage, it's > > good for the eyes. > > > It removed cataracts from our other dog when he > > was 10, and the > > > homecooked meals healed his arthritis and made him > > act 5 years > > > younger. > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > You can see my pups at vegepet.com, page 4 of the > > stories and pics. > > > Patches and Shanti. We fed them totally veggie for > > several years, then > > > decided it was just too much soy. So now we use > > other things besides > > > soy, but there is still soy in their biskits. > > > > > > > > > > > > <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=11952103/grpspId=1705060814/ > > > > > > msgId=4816/stime=1207237407/nc1=5191948/nc2=5191951/nc3=3848642> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one > > month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________\ ____ > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. > http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2008 Report Share Posted April 4, 2008 bow wow, pant, wag, pant.....(start repeat loop until reborn) > RE: Chlorophyll and dogs > > > My dog had bad breath for years and she has a broken tooth. > We think someone kicked her, she was terrifed of walking past shoes when > we found her 10 years ago. > I checked her teeth the other day and her upper right back grinders were > all encrusted with tartar. Really covered, and the gums were red. > > I went to Ebay and found a set of dental picks. > I laid her down and she trusted me to be gentle and I carefully began to > pick away at it. > > It took several sessions over the course of 3 days, but it was so cool > when the first big piece just flew off and landed on the floor. > I managed to get it all off. Sometimes I had to give her a rubber type > bone to put in her mouth to open it a little. > > Her breath is much better. > > She gets chlorophyll every day in her food, I add spirulina to the > recipes. > She and the other dog get home cooked meals twice a day and home made > doggie biscuits. > Mornings it is oats, green beans and eggs with chicken broth. > Evenings it is brown rice that has been ground into grits, a veggie mix > of carrot, celery, peas, garlic and tomatoes and tuna fish or once in > awhile turkey. > THey get fish oil and EVOO (extra virgin olive oil), ground flax seeds, > calcium and veggie pet yeast in their meals. > > Since taking them off commercial pet food their health visibly improved. > The older dog also get raw organic cabbage, it's good for the eyes. > It removed cataracts from our other dog when he was 10, and the > homecooked meals healed his arthritis and made him act 5 years younger. > > Cheers! > > You can see my pups at vegepet.com, page 4 of the stories and pics. > Patches and Shanti. We fed them totally veggie for several years, then > decided it was just too much soy. So now we use other things besides > soy, but there is still soy in their biskits. > > > <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=11952103/grpspId=1705060814/ > msgId=4816/stime=1207237407/nc1=5191948/nc2=5191951/nc3=3848642> > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2008 Report Share Posted April 4, 2008 The dog probably needs a good dental cleaning. You got what you could see, but there is more of that stuff under the gum line that you can't get to. That's why the gum line is red. > > I checked her teeth the other day and her upper right back grinders were > > all encrusted with tartar. Really covered, and the gums were red. > > > > I went to Ebay and found a set of dental picks. > > I laid her down and she trusted me to be gentle and I carefully began to > > pick away at it. > > > > It took several sessions over the course of 3 days, but it was so cool > > when the first big piece just flew off and landed on the floor. > > I managed to get it all off. Sometimes I had to give her a rubber type > > bone to put in her mouth to open it a little. > > > > Her breath is much better. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2008 Report Share Posted April 5, 2008 Here is a veterinarian's site http://www.vetinfo.com/ is one I've used. http://www.vetinfo4dogs.com/dtoxin.html Here is a list that sounds sound. :-) oh, and dinovite! Wow, I make my own, and it has most of the same ingredients. Plus a few more recommended by the books I've read on doggie nutrition. Kathy Re: Chlorophyll and dogs http://members. <http://members.tripod.com/%7EBarefoot_Lass/pets.html> tripod.com/%7EBarefoot_Lass/pets.html The above is the link to a website explaining the WHY of garlic, onion poisoning for pets, and grapes & raisins as well as scads of other pet tips and remedies such as the potty-train your puppy to ring a bell when it needs to go out ... her site also has ALL kinds of other household tips remedies etc. > > Those dogs are better feeded than most humans. > > > > Den 04/04/2008 kl. 01.09 skrev Kathy Wenger: > > > > > My dog had bad breath for years and she has a > > broken tooth. > > > We think someone kicked her, she was terrifed of > > walking past shoes > > > when > > > we found her 10 years ago. > > > I checked her teeth the other day and her upper > > right back grinders > > > were > > > all encrusted with tartar. Really covered, and the > > gums were red. > > > > > > I went to Ebay and found a set of dental picks. > > > I laid her down and she trusted me to be gentle > > and I carefully > > > began to > > > pick away at it. > > > > > > It took several sessions over the course of 3 > > days, but it was so cool > > > when the first big piece just flew off and landed > > on the floor. > > > I managed to get it all off. Sometimes I had to > > give her a rubber type > > > bone to put in her mouth to open it a little. > > > > > > Her breath is much better. > > > > > > She gets chlorophyll every day in her food, I add > > spirulina to the > > > recipes. > > > She and the other dog get home cooked meals twice > > a day and home made > > > doggie biscuits. > > > Mornings it is oats, green beans and eggs with > > chicken broth. > > > Evenings it is brown rice that has been ground > > into grits, a veggie > > > mix > > > of carrot, celery, peas, garlic and tomatoes and > > tuna fish or once in > > > awhile turkey. > > > THey get fish oil and EVOO (extra virgin olive > > oil), ground flax > > > seeds, > > > calcium and veggie pet yeast in their meals. > > > > > > Since taking them off commercial pet food their > > health visibly > > > improved. > > > The older dog also get raw organic cabbage, it's > > good for the eyes. > > > It removed cataracts from our other dog when he > > was 10, and the > > > homecooked meals healed his arthritis and made him > > act 5 years > > > younger. > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > You can see my pups at vegepet.com, page 4 of the > > stories and pics. > > > Patches and Shanti. We fed them totally veggie for > > several years, then > > > decided it was just too much soy. So now we use > > other things besides > > > soy, but there is still soy in their biskits. > > > > > > > > > > > > <http://geo.yahoo. <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=11952103/grpspId=1705060814/ > com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=11952103/grpspId=1705060814/ > > > > > > msgId=4816/stime=1207237407/nc1=5191948/nc2=5191951/nc3=3848642> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one > > month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. > http://tc.deals. <http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com> yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com > __________ NOD32 3000 (20080403) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2008 Report Share Posted April 5, 2008 Actually I got up under the gum line and the gums are pink now, thanks. I still have some tartar to remove, but it's much smaller that the huge amount that was all over those back teeth. I wasn't sure what I would find under them....was pleased to find healthy teeth and not a bunch of decay! RE: Chlorophyll and dogs The dog probably needs a good dental cleaning. You got what you could see, but there is more of that stuff under the gum line that you can't get to. That's why the gum line is red. > > I checked her teeth the other day and her upper right back grinders were > > all encrusted with tartar. Really covered, and the gums were red. > > > > I went to Ebay and found a set of dental picks. > > I laid her down and she trusted me to be gentle and I carefully began to > > pick away at it. > > > > It took several sessions over the course of 3 days, but it was so cool > > when the first big piece just flew off and landed on the floor. > > I managed to get it all off. Sometimes I had to give her a rubber type > > bone to put in her mouth to open it a little. > > > > Her breath is much better. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2008 Report Share Posted April 5, 2008 sure, Simon, I could let them catch, kill and eat their own rabbits, if there were rabbits, but I'm not about to feed them feedlot beef or factory raised pork or chicken. Have you ever read what's in that meat???? Scary! Probably what is causing the health problems in your dogs, if you feed them nothing but raw grocery store meat. Hormones, antibiotics, steroids, GMO organisms from being fed GMO corn, oats and soy. Ideally, cattle should be grassfed. Not fattened up on grains and beans. Cattle flatulence is destroying the ozone! LOL Did you know they feed cattle the sweeping from the henhouses? A mixture of chicken shit, feathers and feed? Lyman said it made his cattle as fat as butterballs, and Oprah Winfrey stood up and said, I have eaten my last hamburger. Cattle Industry sued for disparagement, and they lost. But now it is illegal to disrespect them! Hear hear, what money can do! My dogs are out in the yard eating grass right now, they do it every spring. It's natural. They'll eat almost anything, they are omnivores. I don't think they could get any healthier, Simon, but I see where you are coming from. You're entitled to your opinion. I'm reminded of the story of the lion who would not eat meat, in any shape or form. She was quite well-known. Once a baby chick wandered into her open mouth, and she shut it, the people thought the chick was a goner, but she opened her mouth and it came right out, unscathed. What's that scripture in Isaiah? And the lion shall lie down with the lamb, and shall eat straw like the ox, and they shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain. To me, that is a sign that love is once again reigning on the earth, to be able to eat without shedding blood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2008 Report Share Posted April 6, 2008 If it happens again try Homeopathic Drosera 12x - worked well for me - fast Jane Chlorophyll and dogs > Hi, > > My dogs and goats would long be dead if garlic were poisonous. They love > the taste, it repels skin parasites and internal parasites. Dog canned > food > has it as an ingredient because dogs love the taste. > > I actually saved an Australian Sherperd from bronchitis when all the vet > had > done (three increasing rounds of antibiotics, then one very expensive > human > new drug on the market), then back to coughing his heart out, I determined > there was nothing to lose. I put heavy doses of freeze dried garlic > powder > on top of milk and within a week, he was cured. The vet's response, > Hmmmmmmm. > > My dogs might be better feeded than humans but they work harder and > deserve > it. > > Jean > > ************************ > > > >> jus try to learn very new at this so please bear with me. i say that to >> say >> this i have read some were that garlic can kill a dog is this fact or >> myth? >> >> Kenn sen wrote: Those dogs are better >> feeded >> than most humans. >> >> > > > ------------------------------------ > > List Home Page: > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/DimethylSulfoxide-DMSO > > Books: > DMSO Nature's Healer by Morton > MSM The Definitive Guide by Stanely MD and Appleton, NDYahoo! > Groups Links > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2008 Report Share Posted April 6, 2008 Thanks for the experience on the garlic being ok. I wonder if it is an individual dog/condition thing as I used to give my collies on the farm just about anything & never had malnutrition or bad condition at all. My dachsies are a little fussier & different so I have been hesitant on anything scraps, particularly the scare articles. Those dogs are better feeded > > than most humans. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2008 Report Share Posted April 7, 2008 Tartar actually protects the tooth enamel from decay. But it is bad for the gums. Garnet Kathy Wenger wrote: > Actually I got up under the gum line and the gums are pink now, thanks. > I still have some tartar to remove, but it's much smaller that the huge > amount that was all over those back teeth. > > I wasn't sure what I would find under them....was pleased to find > healthy teeth and not a bunch of decay! > > RE: Chlorophyll and dogs > > > > The dog probably needs a good dental cleaning. You got what you could > see, but there is more of that stuff under the gum line that you can't > get to. That's why the gum line is red. > >>> I checked her teeth the other day and her upper right back grinders > were >>> all encrusted with tartar. Really covered, and the gums were red. >>> >>> I went to Ebay and found a set of dental picks. >>> I laid her down and she trusted me to be gentle and I carefully > began to >>> pick away at it. >>> >>> It took several sessions over the course of 3 days, but it was so > cool >>> when the first big piece just flew off and landed on the floor. >>> I managed to get it all off. Sometimes I had to give her a rubber > type >>> bone to put in her mouth to open it a little. >>> >>> Her breath is much better. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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