Re: More on Nitric Oxide (NO) against infection & inflammation PLUS Arginine

[Guest guest]

Interesting post Penny. I took arginine/orthinine caps when I went into

remission (or

partial remission) back in 2001, but have shyed away from them since then after

repeated

warnings from fellow CFS'ers, saying it helps herpes infections grow.

But it also helps the immune system, via nitric oxide, so I'm going to try it

again, this time

with some lysine as an anti-herpes adjunct.

Of course all of this goes against Pall's theory, but I read in another

book by

Bested (one of the authors of the Canadian definition of ME/CFS) that there is

" good " NO

and " bad " NO...so perhaps Pall is talking about the " bad " ???

One point however that I think you got backwards: It's my understanding that

nitric oxide

increases vasodilation, rather than reducing it. And anything that improves

circulation I

would GUESS would be a good thing.

Here's a study to check out:

http://www.circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/93/1/85

Dan

p.s. I'm STILL waiting for my haritaki! Called the company I bought it from on

JULY 12(!),

and they hadn't even sent it yet, claiming an address issue. Never ordering

from them

again...

--- In infections , " penny " <pennyhoule@...>

wrote:

>

> I recently started taking chromium again but am trying it this time

> combined with Arginine (which seems to be recommended for diabetes

> prevention). Interestingly, I just learned from a body building site

> that the reason body builders use arginine is to increase their Nitric

> Oxide. After coincidentally reading on Eby's site that reduced

> NO seems to be a common symptom of sinusitis sufferers, that caught my

> interest.

>

> Apparently, Nitric Oxide is not only important in fighting infection

> and responding to inflammation, it's also important for blood vessel

> health, blood pressure, etc. If your NO is down, you can experience

> increased vasodilation, etc. I'm wondering if this is contributing to

> not only my headaches, but my abnormal veins and low bp.

>

> Anybody else know much about NO? According to one site, supplementing

> with regular arginine is only capable of creating short lived NO

> boosts, while another type of Arginine can create a continuous level,

> possibly through some kind of time release mechanism. Anyone know

> anything about this? Or is it just a marketing ploy?

>

> Here's a good part of a 500+ pg book called appropriately enough,

> Nitric Oxide and Infection:

>

> http://books.google.com/books?

> id=sM05oRzCuloC & dq=nitric+oxide+and+infection & pg=PP1 & ots=1iA12HeHfJ & sig=

> a9V4vl5BGT2ZsKwdw9fAgrhRRAY & prev=http://www.google.com/search%3Fhl%3Den%

> 26rls%3DSUNA%252CSUNA%253A2006-49%252CSUNA%253Aen%26q%3Dnitric%2Boxide

%

> 2Band%2Binfection & sa=X & oi=print & ct=title#PPA157,M1

>

> Checking PubMed, there seem to be a number of links between arginine

> deficiency and the production of biofilms as well. Whether

> supplementing with it will create enough NO and better vessel health to

> help...who knows? Maybe that's where a time release option becomes

> relevant?

>

> penny

>

[Guest guest]

I was also unclear on the vasodilation issue. Seems to be somewhat contradictory. For me, vasoconstrictors seem to help my migraines most, but who the heck knows what's going on? Best description for migraine I've heard is that the blood vessels in and around the brain are "spastic" according to Dr. Grossan. Never heard it put that way before, but sounds about right. So maybe dilation or constriction doesn't matter as long as you stop the fluctuations? I went to see the "Bodies" exhibit that's travelling around the world. When I saw how many bazillions of tiny blood vessels are in the head, it made me realize why a bunch of them suddenly expanding would give you a killer headache. That is some exhibit. I'd really recommend catching it. Talk about a major perspective shift. I remembered people warning against Arginine for some reason but couldn't remember why. I don't know, if we're depleted of

it, and if NO can help reduce infections, then it seems worth considering. pennykdrbrill <kdrbrill@...> wrote: Interesting post Penny. I took arginine/orthinine caps when I went into remission (or partial remission) back in 2001, but have shyed away from them since then after repeated warnings from fellow CFS'ers, saying it helps herpes infections grow. But it also helps the immune system, via nitric oxide, so I'm going to try it again, this time with some lysine

as an anti-herpes adjunct.Of course all of this goes against Pall's theory, but I read in another book by Bested (one of the authors of the Canadian definition of ME/CFS) that there is "good" NO and "bad" NO...so perhaps Pall is talking about the "bad" ???One point however that I think you got backwards: It's my understanding that nitric oxide increases vasodilation, rather than reducing it. And anything that improves circulation I would GUESS would be a good thing.Here's a study to check out:http://www.circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/93/1/85Danp.s. I'm STILL waiting for my haritaki! Called the company I bought it from on JULY 12(!), and they hadn't even sent it yet, claiming an address issue. Never ordering from them again...>> I recently started taking chromium again but am trying it this time > combined with Arginine (which seems to be recommended for diabetes > prevention). Interestingly, I just learned from a body building site > that the reason body builders use arginine is to increase their Nitric > Oxide. After coincidentally reading on Eby's site that reduced > NO seems to be a common symptom of sinusitis sufferers, that caught my > interest. > > Apparently, Nitric Oxide is not only important in fighting infection > and responding to inflammation, it's also important for blood vessel > health, blood pressure, etc. If your NO is down, you can experience > increased vasodilation, etc. I'm wondering if this is contributing to > not

only my headaches, but my abnormal veins and low bp.> > Anybody else know much about NO? According to one site, supplementing > with regular arginine is only capable of creating short lived NO > boosts, while another type of Arginine can create a continuous level, > possibly through some kind of time release mechanism. Anyone know > anything about this? Or is it just a marketing ploy?> > Here's a good part of a 500+ pg book called appropriately enough, > Nitric Oxide and Infection:> > http://books.google.com/books?> id=sM05oRzCuloC & dq=nitric+oxide+and+infection & pg=PP1 & ots=1iA12HeHfJ & sig=> a9V4vl5BGT2ZsKwdw9fAgrhRRAY & prev=http://www.google.com/search%3Fhl%3Den%>

26rls%3DSUNA%252CSUNA%253A2006-49%252CSUNA%253Aen%26q%3Dnitric%2Boxide%> 2Band%2Binfection & sa=X & oi=print & ct=title#PPA157,M1> > Checking PubMed, there seem to be a number of links between arginine > deficiency and the production of biofilms as well. Whether > supplementing with it will create enough NO and better vessel health to > help...who knows? Maybe that's where a time release option becomes > relevant?> > penny>

[Guest guest]

>I remembered people warning against Arginine for some reason but couldn't remember why. I don't know, if >we're depleted of it, and if NO can help reduce infections, then it seems worth considering.

If you decide to take arginine and if you're worried about the herpes viruses growing you could take extra lysine to balance it out.

I also improved a lot on L-Arginine in 1992 (before my serious encounter with dozens of ticks in 93 and severe crash afterwards).

FWIW, I get very bad headaches from taking gingko biloba which is supposed to be a vasodilator, I also get them from nattokinase and from bromelaine. But again, you will have gathered I get headaches from a lot of things!

Nelly

Re: [infections] Re: More on Nitric Oxide (NO) against infection & inflammation PLUS Arginine

I was also unclear on the vasodilation issue. Seems to be somewhat contradictory. For me, vasoconstrictors seem to help my migraines most, but who the heck knows what's going on? Best description for migraine I've heard is that the blood vessels in and around the brain are "spastic" according to Dr. Grossan. Never heard it put that way before, but sounds about right. So maybe dilation or constriction doesn't matter as long as you stop the fluctuations?

I went to see the "Bodies" exhibit that's travelling around the world. When I saw how many bazillions of tiny blood vessels are in the head, it made me realize why a bunch of them suddenly expanding would give you a killer headache. That is some exhibit. I'd really recommend catching it. Talk about a major perspective shift.

I remembered people warning against Arginine for some reason but couldn't remember why. I don't know, if we're depleted of it, and if NO can help reduce infections, then it seems worth considering.

pennykdrbrill <kdrbrill@...> wrote:

Interesting post Penny. I took arginine/orthinine caps when I went into remission (or partial remission) back in 2001, but have shyed away from them since then after repeated warnings from fellow CFS'ers, saying it helps herpes infections grow. But it also helps the immune system, via nitric oxide, so I'm going to try it again, this time with some lysine as an anti-herpes adjunct.Of course all of this goes against Pall's theory, but I read in another book by Bested (one of the authors of the Canadian definition of ME/CFS) that there is "good" NO and "bad" NO...so perhaps Pall is talking about the "bad" ???One point however that I think you got backwards: It's my understanding that nitric oxide increases vasodilation, rather than reducing it. And anything that improves circulation I would GUESS would be a good thing.Here's a study to check out:http://www.circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/93/1/85Danp.s. I'm STILL waiting for my haritaki! Called the company I bought it from on JULY 12(!), and they hadn't even sent it yet, claiming an address issue. Never ordering from them again...>> I recently started taking chromium again but am trying it this time > combined with Arginine (which seems to be recommended for diabetes > prevention). Interestingly, I just learned from a body building site > that the reason body builders use arginine is to increase their Nitric > Oxide. After coincidentally reading on Eby's site that reduced > NO seems to be a common symptom of sinusitis sufferers, that caught my > interest. > > Apparently, Nitric Oxide is not only important in fighting infection > and responding to inflammation, it's also important for blood vessel > health, blood pressure, etc. If your NO is down, you can experience > increased vasodilation, etc. I'm wondering if this is contributing to > not only my headaches, but my abnormal veins and low bp.> > Anybody else know much about NO? According to one site, supplementing > with regular arginine is only capable of creating short lived NO > boosts, while another type of Arginine can create a continuous level, > possibly through some kind of time release mechanism. Anyone know > anything about this? Or is it just a marketing ploy?> > Here's a good part of a 500+ pg book called appropriately enough, > Nitric Oxide and Infection:> > http://books.google.com/books?> id=sM05oRzCuloC & dq=nitric+oxide+and+infection & pg=PP1 & ots=1iA12HeHfJ & sig=> a9V4vl5BGT2ZsKwdw9fAgrhRRAY & prev=http://www.google.com/search%3Fhl%3Den%> 26rls%3DSUNA%252CSUNA%253A2006-49%252CSUNA%253Aen%26q%3Dnitric%2Boxide%> 2Band%2Binfection & sa=X & oi=print & ct=title#PPA157,M1> > Checking PubMed, there seem to be a number of links between arginine > deficiency and the production of biofilms as well. Whether > supplementing with it will create enough NO and better vessel health to > help...who knows? Maybe that's where a time release option becomes > relevant?> > penny>

[Guest guest]

Nelly,

In regards to vasodilators, one of the surprising findings from Dr.

Goldstein was that when he found a drug that would relieve symptoms it

was shown by PET scans that the blood flow to the brain was actually

being even more restricted. Because of the many studies associating

low cerebral blood flow in CFS patients it had been assumed that by

restoring blood flow to 'normal' levels the patients would have their

symptoms reduced.

But that 'surprising' result does make sense if one remembers Tony's

warnings on the toxicity of bacteria, and also the discovery of

ciguatera like toxins in the blood of CFS patients. In those cases,

reduced blood flow equals reduced toxin exposure, so adding a

vasodilator might not be the best course of action.

I feel the same logic might also apply to Dr. Palls findings. It has

been shown that in CFS patients the T-cells are not functioning

properly, and as I understand it these are the ones who are the

equivalent of foot soldiers going door to door eliminating the enemy

on a one to one basis.

What if the immune system sees an infection, and realizes the functions

of it's T-cell 'army' are compromised, so instead the immune system is

reduced to a strategy of 'carpet bombing' the general area with

free radicals in order to try and control the infection? In this case,

taking a lot of antioxidants may be the wrong approach.

What Tony, Barb, Dr. Montoya and even Rich have in common is they have

devised strategies to help the immune system to restore health. CFS

patients are plagued with variety of bacterial, viral and/or parasitic

infections that are usually not allowed to flourish in the general

population.

The common genetic abnormalities now being discovered are probably

very new in human experience, maybe a result of multi-generational

exposure to the 'residues' of an industrial society. As is exposure to

mercury and other contaminates in vaccines. And the genetics of

bacteria and parasites have also been affected by our industrial

society (sometimes intentionally).

I think combining the aggressive philosophy of the first three while

using bio-availble forms of nutrients to help restore the immune

system and eliminate toxins ala Rich's program is the best way for me

to go. But like everything else with this disease, its a helluva lot

easier said than done!

Good luck, Jerry

>

> >I remembered people warning against Arginine for some reason but

couldn't remember why. I don't know, if >we're depleted of it, and if

NO can help reduce infections, then it seems worth considering.

>

> If you decide to take arginine and if you're worried about the

herpes viruses growing you could take extra lysine to balance it out.

>

> I also improved a lot on L-Arginine in 1992 (before my serious

encounter with dozens of ticks in 93 and severe crash afterwards).

>

> FWIW, I get very bad headaches from taking gingko biloba which is

supposed to be a vasodilator, I also get them from nattokinase and

from bromelaine. But again, you will have gathered I get headaches

from a lot of things!

>

> Nelly