Re: Digest 4 - Re: Was Re: ASTM Conference on Mold - now ...

[Guest guest]

Tony,

Sorry for the delay. Have been busy eating bon bons and frivolously fluttering away my life. Is that what you wanted to hear?

I am still busy. And you are boring me with your responses. They have no merit. It's the same goofy argument over, and over, and over again.

So here is the bottom line, Pallie:

You can't take a rat study, add some math and conclude public policy from this is influence of ignorance, that humans are not made ill from the microbial toxins that are found in water damaged buildings. It is now so decreed by the Federal Government.

Sharon

Sharon:Sorry for the delay, busy working.1. A couple of questions:Did you look up the definition of precautionary principal before or afteryou used it in the original statement? And would you really know how to apply this principal to science (not beinga scientist yourself)?2. You appear to be delusional again:Regarding:" Regarding the NGO that they reviewed that used the "no evidence of inhaledmycotoxins" as a supposed legitimate science for a position statementdenying causation of illness, they cut it off at the knees with its ownspinning words. AAAAI. Read it for yourself. I think it is reference 23(?):"Response:a) So you are saying they (GAO) cut this statement [no mycotoxins] offat the knees - where? Please put the text in there that supposedly does so. There is only one citation to ref 23 it and does nothing of thesort; it summarizes what was said in ref 23. c) FYI - This whole document is a Review, as in like a book review(only worse). It has lots of pieces and commentary like a review, but:i) It has a short Conclusion piece with the only health statementsbeing:"However, some documents do not sufficiently advise the general public aboutsome potentially serious health effects""Regarding protective gear, some documents do not provide information abouthow populations that are particularly vulnerable to adverse health effectsshould protect themselves" - Implies only applies to mold remediation."In fact, populations with certain immunosuppression conditions should avoidexposure to mold but many guidance documents do not state this. As a result,the public may not be sufficiently aware of the health risks they or theirfamily members may face, and they may also be confused about how to approachcleaning up mold in their homes."- Immunosuppressed - DUHHHH, already known.ii) It has Recommendations of:154 Words for 2 recommendations."Help articulate and guide research priorities on indoor mold ""Help relevant agencies review their existing guidance to the public onindoor mold"iii) It is poorly organized, poorly reconstructed, and has a lot ofcaveats in the back. Many of these make it effectively liquid jello.d) I'm still not seeing this grand conclusion you are implying.3. Regarding:Your extracted statement:'"Several factors influence the likelihood that individuals might experiencehealth effects following exposure to mold in indoor environments. These include: the nature of the fungal material (e.g., allergenic,toxic/irritant, or infectious); the degree of exposure (amount and duration)[Tony: this would be dose]; and the susceptibility of exposed people.Susceptibility varies with genetic predisposition, age, state of health,concurrent exposures, and previous sensitization. For these reasons, as wellas because environmental measurements of exposure are not well-standardizedand biological markers that can assess the health risk from exposure tofungi are largely unknown(17), it is not possible to determine "safe" or"unsafe" levels of exposure for the general public. Those with knownvulnerabilities to unusual mold exposures include the very young and olderpeople; those with pre-existing allergies, asthma or certain respiratoryailments; those whose immune systems are compromised by recent chemotherapy,taking of certain drugs and illnesses such as cystic fibrosis; and peopleliving with HIV." 'Response:a. Might is a weak word. (individuals might experience health effects)b. "Susceptibility varies with genetic predisposition, age, state ofhealth, concurrent exposures, and previous sensitization"So? We account for this in other limits or non-limits but controls, whatmakes mold so special?d. "environmental measurements of exposure are not well-standardized"Really??e. DOSE is it according to you I see. [degree of exposure (amount andduration)]c. I disagree with - "it is not possible to determine a "safe" or"unsafe" levels of exposure for the general public"We wouldn't have mycotoxin acceptable limits in foods if that were the case.And I don't see this in the GAO or other groups listed [AIHA, NYDOH, IOM,AAP, AAEM, and even AAAAI (somewhat)][Note: I haven't finished the new Green Book, so I'm basing this on otherAIHA documents and NO AIHA Policy statement to this effect that I know of,and as far as I know the Green Book is not an approved policy documenteither]d. I disagree with the premise implied that biomarkers are always needed- "biological markers that can assess the health risk from exposure to fungiare largely unknown"If one has exposure dose, biomarkers are not necessary, otherwise wewouldn't have airborne limits for lots of things. You'll note there arevery little biological monitoring limits.e. Where is this grand message in?"AIHA, NYDOH, IOM, AAP, AAEM, and even AAAAI (somewhat)" [you stated theyare all now delivering consistent messaging]I'm not seeing it. Perhaps you should write a paper pulling together all ofthe citations and quotes to make your case.Tony

Sharon Noonan KramerCheck out smokin' hot deals on laptops, desktops and more from Dell. Shop Deals

[Guest guest]

Tony,

You know that deep down I really like you. But, I think you need to stop splitting hairs. A Green Book put out by the AIHA would, by all practical interpretations, be the considered the stance of the org. One does not have to stamp "Position Statement" on the cover for that to be considered what AIHA is of the opinion is current accepted science.

And what is with your hair splitting problem that I wrote "not possible" where as AIHA describes it as "DIFFICULT" and "MAY NOT BE PRACTICAL"?

The GAO Report and the AIHA Green Book are both current publications that are consistent with each other and accurately reflect the current state of scientific understanding. If I accidentally used a word somewhere in this post that you do not like, regardless....I think you get the gist.

Seriously, Tony. Give it up.

Sharon

Hey Don:1. Regarding:"guidelines for indoor mold exposure levels is difficult and may notbe practical.'"Response:Yep, that clears up AIHA since "NOT POSSIBLE" (by Sharon's interpretation)is not the same as "DIFFICULT" and "MAY NOT BE PRACTICAL" (in the AIHAwebpage).2. Regarding:"In effect, they become AIHA's policy statement on mold,since there is no 'formal' AIHA position statement on mold."Response:Maybe you should ask AIHA if No Formal Policy equates to a de facto policy.I believe AIHA counsel would likely disagree.TonyPs Technical Guidance does not necessarily equal Policy....................................................................... "Tony" Havics, CHMM, CIH, PEpH2, LLC5250 E US 36, Suite 830Avon, IN 46123www.ph2llc.com off fax cell90% of Risk Management is knowing where to place the decimal point...anyconsultant can give you the other 10%(SM)This message is from pH2. This message and any attachments may containlegally privileged or confidential information, and are intended only forthe individual or entity identified above as the addressee. If you are notthe addressee, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, youare not authorized to read, copy, or distribute this message and anyattachments, and we ask that you please delete this message and attachments(including all copies) and notify the sender by return e-mail or by phone at. Delivery of this message and any attachments to any personother than the intended recipient(s) is not intended in any way to waiveconfidentiality or a privilege. All personal messages express views only ofthe sender, which are not to be attributed to pH2 and may not be copied ordistributed without this statement.

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Sharon Noonan KramerCheck out smokin' hot deals on laptops, desktops and more from Dell. Shop Deals