Re: Re: Preliminary report on coagulation testing

[Guest guest]

Thank you, Tony!

Nelly

[infections] Re: Preliminary report on coagulation testing

NellyNice to have you back..tony> Hi all,> > My doc called me this a.m. with the results of my coagulation testing through Dr. Glueck and mdl labs ( www.mdl-labs.com ). I need to see the labs myself and to talk with Dr. Glueck to better understand everything, but I know now that I tested positive for at least 4 of the genetic clotting disorders. This is not only high, it probably explains why I have osteonecrosis of the jaw & had minocycline induced pseudotumor cerebri. It may also explain the chronic migraines, not to mention a potential venous thrombotic clot (according to one person who viewed my CT scans) as well as high cholesterol and extreme difficulty fighting chronic infections. Unfortunately these genetic disorders contribute to a self perpetuating cycle because chronic infections also cause hypercoagulation. > > This clotting issue is really important for pwc to understand because not only is it related to many of our health issues, but the people with these hereditary clotting disorders are proven to be at HIGH risk (3 to 80 times the norm) for heart attack and stroke. Glueck highly recommends that patients with these clotting factors take warfarin as a preventative. He gave me a recommended starting dose of warfarin to work toward achieving the appropriate INR, which is different from people who don't have the clotting disorders.> > I believe that many pwc (people with chronic infection & inflammation), would probably test positive for one or more of these genetic clotting disorders and would benefit from blood thinners to reduce the inflammation and help fight infection more effectively. Pwc I talk to on blood thinners say that their headaches and body pain disappear, etc., not to mention their risk factors are greatly reduced. Unfortunately Dr. Glueck says we're probably 10 years away from routine testing for even the most basic thrombotic clotting disorder which causes death in women who take estrogen or birth control pills. > > If you want to know more about thrombophilia, I recommend you visit Dr. Gleuck's website. He is THE authority in the field of coagulation disorders and their consequences and has hundreds of studies and articles to back him up.> > http://www.jewishhospitalcincinnati.com/cholesterol/index.html> > penny> > > > > > .>

[Guest guest]

Yeah, I think enzymes are definitely important. I know they were a big part of Barb's recovery, along with blood thinning (ibuprofen) and the antimicrobial benefits of coconut oil. Glueck, however, states very emphatically that when someone has the right combination of hereditary coagulation factors, supplements just aren't going to cut it as much as he wishes they would. So it seems to me it might depend on whether you're dealing with hypercoagulation as a result of illness or as a pre-existing causative condition. On the other hand, I think experimenting with natural things, like enzymes, B vitamins, natural blood thinners and anti-inflammatories are definitely worth a shot. Especially for those who might not have the hereditary coagulation disorders. But if I were a gambler, I'd bet on a lot of us having them. penny cbwillis9

<cbwillis9@...> wrote: Penny, when you speak of hypercoagulation etc, I wonder whatplant-derived enzymes (e.g. Now brand, etc), 2-3 capsules onempty stomach chased with 4-8 oz water would do for you, as anexperiment. I have seen a single dose of enzymes clear up rouladesshown on darkfield microscopy completely, suggesting low levelsof enzymes may be a culprit, and that occasional enzymes onempty stomach is useful to have in one's bag of tricks for acuteuse.---High C-reactive protein is often addressed with

adequatefolic acid and B12 for the individual. Carol

[Guest guest]

Yeah, I know, and I've tried to tell people about Glueck for a long time, but HEMEX has always dominated the discussions. Still, people like Ken Lassesen from cfs experimental have definitely found blood thinning to be an important part of their protocols. pennyhope0073 <hope0073@...> wrote: Penny, et all--Am glad you got this testing done as it is probably amissing link for many. This was discussed very thoroughly on otherlists, including CFSExperimental 3 or more years ago. The

guru thenwas Berg of Hemex Lab. FWIW, Hope-

[Guest guest]

My wife had the HEMEX testing

several years ago and this was definitely a huge problem for her. She

was off the charts on a couple of the tests and had apparently been

laying down fibrinogen since forever.

Unfortunately, six months of heparin treatment succeeded only in

putting her in bed for six months with raging fevers. They stopped as

soon as the heparin was stopped. Either her body had swept so many

critters under the rug that they overwhelmed her, or her immune system

was responding strangely to whatever was exposed by the heparin.

My take-away from that is, this is well worth checking and addressing.

If you can deal with the side effects (which for many aren't bad) then

you will be getting at organisms you otherwise wouldn't.

--Bob

Penny Houle wrote:

Yeah, I know, and I've tried to tell people about Glueck for a

long time, but HEMEX has always dominated the discussions. Still,

people like Ken Lassesen from cfs experimental have definitely found

blood thinning to be an important part of their protocols.

penny

hope0073 <hope0073 > wrote:

Penny, et all--Am glad you got this testing done as it is

probably a

missing link for many. This was discussed very thoroughly on other

lists, including CFSExperimental 3 or more years ago. The guru then

was Berg of Hemex Lab. FWIW, Hope-

[Guest guest]

Yes, Bob, I agree, that's my take on this as well, hence the HUGE headaches I get when I take nattokinase with abx. But in my case the coagulation tests didn't pick up anything abnormal. I am finding that after a few years on various abx combos, I can now tolerate some things much better than previously, like ginkgo biloba which I previously couldn't take. I might be slowly getting the numbers down, so that now my immune system + abx can deal with the extra load better.

Good to see you still around, Bob. Often thinking of you

Nelly

Re: [infections] Re: Preliminary report on coagulation testing

My wife had the HEMEX testing several years ago and this was definitely a huge problem for her. She was off the charts on a couple of the tests and had apparently been laying down fibrinogen since forever.Unfortunately, six months of heparin treatment succeeded only in putting her in bed for six months with raging fevers. They stopped as soon as the heparin was stopped. Either her body had swept so many critters under the rug that they overwhelmed her, or her immune system was responding strangely to whatever was exposed by the heparin.My take-away from that is, this is well worth checking and addressing. If you can deal with the side effects (which for many aren't bad) then you will be getting at organisms you otherwise wouldn't.--BobPenny Houle wrote:

Yeah, I know, and I've tried to tell people about Glueck for a long time, but HEMEX has always dominated the discussions. Still, people like Ken Lassesen from cfs experimental have definitely found blood thinning to be an important part of their protocols.

pennyhope0073 <hope0073 > wrote:

Penny, et all--Am glad you got this testing done as it is probably amissing link for many. This was discussed very thoroughly on otherlists, including CFSExperimental 3 or more years ago. The guru thenwas Berg of Hemex Lab. FWIW, Hope-

[Guest guest]

Yes, another difference is that HEMEX seems to push Heparin, and Glueck doesn't approve heparin. He says it has to be warfarin (the cheap version of coumadin). pennyNelly Pointis <janel@...> wrote: Yes, Bob, I agree, that's my take on this as well, hence the HUGE headaches I get when I take nattokinase with abx. But in my case the coagulation tests didn't pick up anything abnormal. I am finding that after a few years on various

abx combos, I can now tolerate some things much better than previously, like ginkgo biloba which I previously couldn't take. I might be slowly getting the numbers down, so that now my immune system + abx can deal with the extra load better. Good to see you still around, Bob. Often thinking of you Nelly Re: [infections] Re: Preliminary report on coagulation testing My wife had the HEMEX testing several years ago and this was definitely a huge problem for her. She was off the charts on a couple of the tests and had apparently been laying down fibrinogen since forever.Unfortunately, six months of heparin treatment succeeded only in putting her in bed for six months with raging fevers. They stopped as soon as the heparin was stopped. Either her body had swept so many critters under the rug that they overwhelmed her, or her immune system was responding strangely to whatever was exposed by the heparin.My

take-away from that is, this is well worth checking and addressing. If you can deal with the side effects (which for many aren't bad) then you will be getting at organisms you otherwise wouldn't.--BobPenny Houle wrote: Yeah, I know, and I've tried to tell people about Glueck for a long time, but HEMEX has always dominated the discussions. Still, people like Ken Lassesen from cfs experimental have definitely found blood thinning to be an important part of their protocols. pennyhope0073 <hope0073 > wrote: Penny, et all--Am glad you got this testing done as it is probably amissing link for many. This was discussed very thoroughly on otherlists,

including CFSExperimental 3 or more years ago. The guru thenwas Berg of Hemex Lab. FWIW, Hope-

[Guest guest]

Thanks Nelly, that's nice of

you to say. I still lurk on the low volume lists like this one. Not

much to contribute anymore but am still somewhat involved in the EI /

MCS / CFS communities here and there so like to keep on top of things.

--Bob

Nelly Pointis wrote:

Yes, Bob, I agree,

that's my take on this as well, hence the HUGE headaches I get when I

take nattokinase with abx. But in my case the coagulation tests didn't

pick up anything abnormal. I am finding that after a few years on

various abx combos, I can now tolerate some things much better than

previously, like ginkgo biloba which I previously couldn't take. I

might be slowly getting the numbers down, so that now my immune system

+ abx can deal with the extra load better.

Good to see you still around, Bob.

Often thinking of you

Nelly

-----

Original Message -----

From:

Bob Grommes

To:

infections

Sent:

Thursday, November 01, 2007 10:24 PM

Subject:

Re: [infections] Re: Preliminary report on

coagulation testing

My wife had the HEMEX

testing several years ago and this was definitely a huge problem for

her. She was off the charts on a couple of the tests and had

apparently been laying down fibrinogen since forever.

Unfortunately, six months of heparin treatment succeeded only in

putting her in bed for six months with raging fevers. They stopped as

soon as the heparin was stopped. Either her body had swept so many

critters under the rug that they overwhelmed her, or her immune system

was responding strangely to whatever was exposed by the heparin.

My take-away from that is, this is well worth checking and addressing.

If you can deal with the side effects (which for many aren't bad) then

you will be getting at organisms you otherwise wouldn't.

--Bob

Penny Houle wrote:

Yeah, I know, and I've tried to tell people about Glueck for

a long time, but HEMEX has always dominated the discussions. Still,

people like Ken Lassesen from cfs experimental have definitely found

blood thinning to be an important part of their protocols.

penny

hope0073 <hope0073 > wrote:

Penny, et all--Am glad you got this testing done as it is

probably a

missing link for many. This was discussed very thoroughly on other

lists, including CFSExperimental 3 or more years ago. The guru then

was Berg of Hemex Lab. FWIW, Hope-

[Guest guest]

I heard somewhere that HEMEX

is no more, or at least that Berg isn't there ... anyone happen to know?

Yes, HEMEX pushed heparin, and some of the doctors ordering HEMEX tests

were experimenting with an oral form of same. I don't recall the

rationale.

So Glueck likes the rat poison, eh? Does he say why?

--Bob

Penny Houle wrote:

Yes, another difference is that HEMEX seems to push Heparin, and

Glueck doesn't approve heparin. He says it has to be warfarin (the

cheap version of coumadin).

penny

Nelly Pointis <janelpiedbauge (DOT) net> wrote:

Yes, Bob, I agree,

that's my take on this as well, hence the HUGE headaches I get when I

take nattokinase with abx. But in my case the coagulation tests didn't

pick up anything abnormal. I am finding that after a few years on

various abx combos, I can now tolerate some things much better than

previously, like ginkgo biloba which I previously couldn't take. I

might be slowly getting the numbers down, so that now my immune system

+ abx can deal with the extra load better.

Good to see you still around, Bob.

Often thinking of you

Nelly

-----

Original Message -----

From:

Bob Grommes

To:

Infe

ctionAndInflammation2

Sent:

Thursday, November 01, 2007 10:24 PM

Subject:

Re: [infections] Re: Preliminary report on

coagulation testing

My wife had the HEMEX

testing several years ago and this was definitely a huge problem for

her. She was off the charts on a couple of the tests and had

apparently been laying down fibrinogen since forever.

Unfortunately, six months of heparin treatment succeeded only in

putting her in bed for six months with raging fevers. They stopped as

soon as the heparin was stopped. Either her body had swept so many

critters under the rug that they overwhelmed her, or her immune system

was responding strangely to whatever was exposed by the heparin.

My take-away from that is, this is well worth checking and addressing.

If you can deal with the side effects (which for many aren't bad) then

you will be getting at organisms you otherwise wouldn't.

--Bob

Penny Houle wrote:

Yeah, I know, and I've tried to tell people about Glueck

for a long time, but HEMEX has always dominated the discussions. Still,

people like Ken Lassesen from cfs experimental have definitely found

blood thinning to be an important part of their protocols.

penny

hope0073 <hope0073 > wrote:

Penny, et all--Am glad you got this testing done as it

is probably a

missing link for many. This was discussed very thoroughly on other

l ists, including CFSExperimental 3 or more years ago. The guru then

was Berg of Hemex Lab. FWIW, Hope-

[Guest guest]

He's adamant that Heparin can't get the job done. I don't recall the reasoning, but I think he believes that if you don't get the job done right, the effects of trying can be worse than doing nothing? Perhaps this is what happened in your wife's case? My doc's very against coumadin, too. Which means I've got to find a way around that. I think coumadin's gotten a bad rep because doses are sometimes determined somewhat carelessly. I remember an in-law coming to visit who was on coumadin after a heart attack and he knicked himself and couldn't stop bleeding. It was very bizarre. Glueck is extremely diligent about determining dosages through testing. He believes that for people with the clotting disorders, coumadin's not poison at all but can actually greatly extend a person's life by preventing serious disease. I don't know yet, but I'm

sure willing to find out. pennyBob Grommes <bob@...> wrote: I heard somewhere that HEMEX is no more, or at least that Berg isn't there ... anyone happen to know?Yes, HEMEX pushed heparin, and some of the doctors ordering HEMEX tests were experimenting with an oral form of same. I don't recall the rationale.So Glueck likes the rat poison, eh? Does he say why?--BobPenny Houle wrote: Yes, another difference is that HEMEX seems to push Heparin, and Glueck doesn't approve heparin. He says it has to be warfarin (the cheap version of coumadin). pennyNelly Pointis <janelpiedbauge (DOT) net> wrote: Yes, Bob, I agree, that's my take on this as well, hence the HUGE headaches I get when I take nattokinase with abx. But in my case the coagulation tests didn't pick up anything abnormal. I am finding that after a few years on various abx combos, I can now tolerate some things much better than previously, like ginkgo biloba which I previously couldn't take. I might be slowly getting the numbers down, so that now my immune system + abx can deal with the extra load

better. Good to see you still around, Bob. Often thinking of you Nelly Re: [infections] Re: Preliminary report on coagulation testing My wife had the HEMEX testing several years ago and this was definitely a huge problem for her. She was off the charts on a couple of the tests and had apparently been laying down fibrinogen since forever.Unfortunately, six months of heparin treatment

succeeded only in putting her in bed for six months with raging fevers. They stopped as soon as the heparin was stopped. Either her body had swept so many critters under the rug that they overwhelmed her, or her immune system was responding strangely to whatever was exposed by the heparin.My take-away from that is, this is well worth checking and addressing. If you can deal with the side effects (which for many aren't bad) then you will be getting at organisms you otherwise wouldn't.--BobPenny Houle wrote: Yeah, I know, and I've tried to tell people about Glueck for a long time, but HEMEX has always dominated the discussions. Still, people like Ken Lassesen from cfs experimental have definitely found blood thinning to be an important part of their protocols. pennyhope0073 <hope0073 > wrote: Penny, et all--Am glad you got this testing done as it is probably amissing link for many. This was discussed very thoroughly on otherl ists, including CFSExperimental 3 or more years ago. The guru thenwas Berg of Hemex Lab. FWIW, Hope-

[Guest guest]

Well it certainly sounds like

what happened to ... it was certainly worse than nothing at the

time. This was, if memory serves, around '99 or '00, and the side

effects did not seem permanent -- although in retrospect our failure

with that strategy was ominous.

Warfarin kills rats by causing them to bleed to death, and now that you

mention it, I think Berg's rationale against Warfarin / Coumadin at the

time had something to do with a rather narrow range of clinical

effectiveness -- somewhat touchy and individualistic. He thought

Heparin was safer to work with, especially long term. Maybe he just

didn't want to be bothered. If Glueck has really objectively

determined that Warfarin is more effective, and he's as careful as he

claims, then maybe it's the way to go.

--Bob

Penny Houle wrote:

He's adamant that Heparin can't get the job done. I don't recall

the reasoning, but I think he believes that if you don't get the job

done right, the effects of trying can be worse than doing nothing?

Perhaps this is what happened in your wife's case?

My doc's very against coumadin, too. Which means I've got to

find a way around that. I think coumadin's gotten a bad rep because

doses are sometimes determined somewhat carelessly. I remember an

in-law coming to visit who was on coumadin after a heart attack and he

knicked himself and couldn't stop bleeding. It was very bizarre. Glueck

is extremely diligent about determining dosages through testing. He

believes that for people with the clotting disorders, coumadin's not

poison at all but can actually greatly extend a person's life by

preventing serious disease. I don't know y et, but I'm sure willing to

find out.

penny

Bob Grommes <bobbobgrommes> wrote:

I heard somewhere

that HEMEX is no more, or at least that Berg isn't there ... anyone

happen to know?

Yes, HEMEX pushed heparin, and some of the doctors ordering HEMEX tests

were experimenting with an oral form of same. I don't recall the

rationale.

So Glueck likes the rat poison, eh? Does he say why?

--Bob

Penny Houle wrote:

Yes, another difference is that HEMEX seems to push Heparin,

and Glueck doesn't approve heparin. He says it has to be warfarin (the

cheap version of coumadin).

penny

Nelly Pointis <janelpiedbauge (DOT) net>

wrote:

Yes, Bob, I

agree, that's my take on this as well, hence the HUGE headaches I get

when I take nattokinase with abx. But in my case the coagulation tests

didn't pick up anything abnormal. I am finding that after a few years

on various abx combos, I can now tolerate some things much better than

previously, like ginkgo biloba which I previously couldn't take. I

might be slowly getting the numbers down, so that now my immune system

+ abx can deal with the extra load better.

Good to see you still around,

Bob. Often thinking of you

Nelly

-----

Original Message -----

From:

Bob Grommes

To:

Infe

ctionAndInflammation2

Sent:

Thursday, November 01, 2007 10:24 PM

Subject:

Re: [infections] Re: Preliminary report on

coagulation testing

My wife had the

HEMEX testing several years ago and this was definitely a huge problem

for her. She was off the charts on a couple of the tests and had

apparently been laying down fibrinogen since forever.

Unfortunately, six months of heparin treatment succeeded only in

putting her in bed for six months with raging fevers. They stopped as

soon as the heparin was stopped. Either her body had swept so many

critters under the rug that they overwhelmed her, or her immune system

was responding strangely to whatever was exposed by the heparin.

My take-away from that is, this is well worth checking and addressing.

If you can deal with the side effects (which for many aren't bad) then

you will be getting at organisms you otherwise wouldn't.

--Bob

Penny Houle wrote:

Yeah, I know, and I've tried to tell people about

Glueck for a long time, but HEMEX has always dominated the

discussions. Still, people like Ken Lassesen from cfs experimental have

definitely found blood thinning to be an important part of their

protocols.

penny

hope0073 <hope0073 >

wrote:

Penny, et all--Am glad you got this testing done as

it is probably a

missing link for many. This was discussed very thoroughly on other

l ists, including CFSExperimental 3 or more years ago. The guru then

was Berg of Hemex Lab. FWIW, Hope-

[Guest guest]

Whoa, so it literally is rat poison. Wow. Yeah, it's a bit scary to think of using a drug that powerful, so yeah, getting the dosage right is definitely critical. Gee how much fun can one person have with any given disease? On the other hand, I think of the alternatives, like the recent blood draw where my blood was coming out like sludge, and all the inflammation I have, and the migraines I'm always fighting off. And then fo course there are the people I know who take the thinner and are doing so well. So for me it definitely seems like something to pursue. Of course, if I don't feel that the results are really big, I won't continue to take the risk. I wasn't all that happy about the Benicar but the symptom relief was so huge I kept taking it until eventually the benefits weren't so big anymore. But I'm wondering now if the Benicar was so effective for me because I

have some of these clotting disorders. Perhaps it's the reason it works so well for some, and not at all for others? pennyBob Grommes <bob@...> wrote: Well it certainly sounds like what happened to ... it was certainly worse than nothing at the time. This was, if memory serves, around '99 or '00, and the side effects did not seem permanent -- although in retrospect our failure with that strategy was ominous.Warfarin kills rats by

causing them to bleed to death, and now that you mention it, I think Berg's rationale against Warfarin / Coumadin at the time had something to do with a rather narrow range of clinical effectiveness -- somewhat touchy and individualistic. He thought Heparin was safer to work with, especially long term. Maybe he just didn't want to be bothered. If Glueck has really objectively determined that Warfarin is more effective, and he's as careful as he claims, then maybe it's the way to go.--BobPenny Houle wrote: He's adamant that Heparin can't get the job done. I don't recall the reasoning, but I think he believes that if you don't get the job done right, the effects of trying can be worse than doing nothing? Perhaps this is what happened in your wife's case? My

doc's very against coumadin, too. Which means I've got to find a way around that. I think coumadin's gotten a bad rep because doses are sometimes determined somewhat carelessly. I remember an in-law coming to visit who was on coumadin after a heart attack and he knicked himself and couldn't stop bleeding. It was very bizarre. Glueck is extremely diligent about determining dosages through testing. He believes that for people with the clotting disorders, coumadin's not poison at all but can actually greatly extend a person's life by preventing serious disease. I don't know y et, but I'm sure willing to find out. pennyBob Grommes <bobbobgrommes> wrote: I heard somewhere that HEMEX is no more, or at

least that Berg isn't there ... anyone happen to know?Yes, HEMEX pushed heparin, and some of the doctors ordering HEMEX tests were experimenting with an oral form of same. I don't recall the rationale.So Glueck likes the rat poison, eh? Does he say why?--BobPenny Houle wrote: Yes, another difference is that HEMEX seems to push Heparin, and Glueck doesn't approve heparin. He says it has to be warfarin (the cheap version of coumadin). pennyNelly Pointis <janelpiedbauge (DOT) net> wrote: Yes, Bob, I agree, that's my take on this as well, hence the HUGE headaches I get when I take nattokinase with abx. But in my

case the coagulation tests didn't pick up anything abnormal. I am finding that after a few years on various abx combos, I can now tolerate some things much better than previously, like ginkgo biloba which I previously couldn't take. I might be slowly getting the numbers down, so that now my immune system + abx can deal with the extra load better. Good to see you still around, Bob. Often thinking of you Nelly Re: [infections] Re: Preliminary report on coagulation

testing My wife had the HEMEX testing several years ago and this was definitely a huge problem for her. She was off the charts on a couple of the tests and had apparently been laying down fibrinogen since forever.Unfortunately, six months of heparin treatment succeeded only in putting her in bed for six months with raging fevers. They stopped as soon as the heparin was stopped. Either her body had swept so many critters under the rug that they overwhelmed her, or her immune system was responding strangely to whatever was exposed by the heparin.My take-away from that is, this is well worth checking and addressing. If you can deal with the side effects (which for many aren't bad) then you will be getting at organisms you otherwise wouldn't.--BobPenny Houle wrote: Yeah, I know, and I've tried to tell people about Glueck for a long time, but HEMEX has always dominated the discussions. Still, people like Ken Lassesen from cfs experimental have definitely found blood thinning to be an important part of their protocols. pennyhope0073 <hope0073 > wrote: Penny, et all--Am glad you got this testing done as it is probably amissing link for many. This was discussed very thoroughly on otherl ists, including CFSExperimental 3 or more years ago. The guru thenwas Berg of Hemex Lab. FWIW, Hope-

[Guest guest]

"How much fun can one person have with any given disease" -- ha!

That's choice. That very thought has crossed my mind more than once.

You might be right about why Benecar is helpful to some. had the

same symptoms from Benecar as from Heparin, by the way, plus a few

others besides, although exactly what has been lost in the welter of

reactions and symptoms over the years and I'd have to look it up in her

logs.

--Bob

Penny Houle wrote:

Whoa, so it literally is rat poison. Wow. Yeah, it's a

bit scary to think of using a drug that powerful, so yeah, getting the

dosage right is definitely critical. Gee how much fun can one

person have with any given disease? On the other hand, I think of the

alternatives, like the recent blood draw where my blood was coming out

like sludge, and all the inflammation I have, and the migraines I'm

always fighting off. And then fo course there are the people I know

who take the thinner and are doing so well. So for me it definitely

seems like something to pursue. Of course, if I don't feel that the

results are really big, I won't continue to take the risk. I

wasn't all that happy about the Benicar but the symptom relief was so

huge I kept taking it until eventually the benefits weren't so big

anymore. But I'm wondering now if the Benicar was so effective for me

because I have some of these clotting disorders. Perhaps it's

the reason it works so well for some, and not at all for others?

penny

[Guest guest]

I took a minute to refresh my

memory on Warfarin -- it's a Vitamin K antagonist and works in fact by

interfering with Vitamin K metabolism -- you may recall that Vitamin K

is curative for hemophilia -- it's also the antidote for Warfarin.

Because of polymorphisms in VItamin K metabolism, ideal dosage varies

quite a bit from person to person. If Glueck is not insisting that you

be carefully monitored, then he's not taking proper precautions.

Seeing what he has to say in that area would be a good confidence test.

It is not advised to take Ginko, St 's Wort, Ginseng, Garlic or

Ginger in conjunction with Warfarin.

--Bob

Penny Houle wrote:

Whoa, so it literally is rat poison. Wow. Yeah, it's a

bit scary to think of using a drug that powerful, so yeah, getting the

dosage right is definitely critical. Gee how much fun can one

person have with any given disease? On the other hand, I think of the

alternatives, like the recent blood draw where my blood was coming out

like sludge, and all the inflammation I have, and the migraines I'm

always fighting off. And then fo course there are the people I know

who take the thinner and are doing so well. So for me it definitely

seems like something to pursue. Of course, if I don't feel that the

results are really big, I won't continue to take the risk. I

wasn't all that happy about the Benicar but the symptom relief was so

huge I kept taking it until eventually the benefits weren't so big

anymore. But I'm wondering now if the Benicar was so effective for me

because I have some of these clotting disorders. Perhaps it's

the reason it works so well for some, and not at all for others?

penny

Bob Grommes <bobbobgrommes> wrote:

Well it certainly

sounds like what happened to ... it was certainly worse than

nothing at the time. This was, if memory serves, around '99 or '00,

and the side effects did not seem permanent -- although in retrospect

our failure with that strategy was ominous.

Warfarin kills rats by causing them to bleed to death, and now that you

mention it, I think Berg's rationale against Warfarin / Coumadin at the

time had something to do with a rather narrow range of clinical

effectiveness -- somewhat touchy and individualistic. He thought

Heparin was safer to work with, especially long term. Maybe he just

didn't want to be bothered. If Glueck has really objectively

determined that Warfarin is more effective, and he's as careful as he

claims, then maybe it's the way to go.

--Bob

Penny Houle wrote:

He's adamant that Heparin can't get the job done. I don't

recall the reasoning, but I think he believes that if you don't get the

job done right, the effects of trying can be worse than doing nothing?

Perhaps this is what happened in your wife's case?

My doc's very against coumadin, too. Which means I've got to

find a way around that. I think coumadin's gotten a bad rep because

doses are sometimes determined somewhat carelessly. I remember an

in-law coming to visit who was on coumadin after a heart attack and he

knicked himself and couldn't stop bleeding. It was very bizarre. Glueck

is extremely diligent about determining dosages through testing. He

believes that for people with the clotting disorders, coumadin's not

poison at all but can actually greatly extend a person's life by

preventing serious disease. I don't know y et, but I'm sure willing to

find out.

penny

Bob Grommes <bobbobgrommes> wrote:

I heard

somewhere that HEMEX is no more, or a t least that Berg isn't there ...

anyone happen to know?

Yes, HEMEX pushed heparin, and some of the doctors ordering HEMEX tests

were experimenting with an oral form of same. I don't recall the

rationale.

So Glueck likes the rat poison, eh? Does he say why?

--Bob

Penny Houle wrote:

Yes, another difference is that HEMEX seems to push

Heparin, and Glueck doesn't approve heparin. He says it has to be

warfarin (the cheap version of coumadin).

penny

Nelly Pointis <janelpiedbauge (DOT) net>

wrote:

Yes, Bob,

I agree, that's my take on this as well, hence the HUGE headaches I get

when I take nattokinase with abx. Bu t in my case the coagulation tests

didn't pick up anything abnormal. I am finding that after a few years

on various abx combos, I can now tolerate some things much better than

previously, like ginkgo biloba which I previously couldn't take. I

might be slowly getting the numbers down, so that now my immune system

+ abx can deal with the extra load better.

Good to see you still

around, Bob. Often thinking of you

Nelly

-----

Original Message -----

From:

Bob Grommes

To:

Infe

ctionAndInflammation2

Sent:

Thursday, November 01, 2007 10:24 PM

Subject:

Re: [infections] Re: Preliminary report on

coagulation testing

My wife had the

HEMEX testing several years ago and this was definitely a huge problem

for her. She was off the charts on a couple of the tests and had

apparently been laying down fibrinogen since forever.

Unfortunately, six months of heparin treatment succeeded only in

putting her in bed for six months with raging fevers. They stopped as

soon as the heparin was stopped. Either her body had swept so many

critters under the rug that they overwhelmed her, or her immune system

was responding strangely to whatever was exposed by the heparin.

My take-away from that is, this is well worth checking and addressing.

If you can deal with the side effects (which for many aren't bad) then

you will be getting at organisms you otherwise wouldn't.

--Bob

Penny Houle wrote:

Yeah, I know, and I've tried to tell people about

Glueck for a long time, but HEMEX has always dominated the

discussions. Still, people like Ken Lassesen from cfs experimental have

definitely found blood thinning to be an important part of their

protocols.

penny

hope0073 <hope0073 >

wrote:

Penny, et all--Am glad you got this testing done

as it is probably a

missing link for many. This was discussed very thoroughly on other

l ists, including CFSExperimental 3 or more years ago. The guru then

was Berg of Hemex Lab. FWIW, Hope-

[Guest guest]

Gleuck definitely insists that the dosage be carefully determined with close monitoring. My friend talked with him yesterday and he was extremely helpful to her, even advising her on how much folic acid and B12 her daughter (who is homozygous for one of the clotting factors) should be taking to prevent a certain birth defect if she should become pregnant. penny Bob Grommes <bob@...> wrote: I took

a minute to refresh my memory on Warfarin -- it's a Vitamin K antagonist and works in fact by interfering with Vitamin K metabolism -- you may recall that Vitamin K is curative for hemophilia -- it's also the antidote for Warfarin.Because of polymorphisms in VItamin K metabolism, ideal dosage varies quite a bit from person to person. If Glueck is not insisting that you be carefully monitored, then he's not taking proper precautions. Seeing what he has to say in that area would be a good confidence test.It is not advised to take Ginko, St 's Wort, Ginseng, Garlic or Ginger in conjunction with Warfarin.--BobPenny Houle wrote: Whoa, so it literally is rat poison. Wow. Yeah, it's a bit scary to think of using a drug that powerful, so yeah, getting the dosage right is definitely

critical. Gee how much fun can one person have with any given disease? On the other hand, I think of the alternatives, like the recent blood draw where my blood was coming out like sludge, and all the inflammation I have, and the migraines I'm always fighting off. And then fo course there are the people I know who take the thinner and are doing so well. So for me it definitely seems like something to pursue. Of course, if I don't feel that the results are really big, I won't continue to take the risk. I wasn't all that happy about the Benicar but the symptom relief was so huge I kept taking it until eventually the benefits weren't so big anymore. But I'm wondering now if the Benicar was so effective for me because I have some of these clotting disorders. Perhaps it's the reason it works so well for some, and not at all for others? pennyBob

Grommes <bobbobgrommes> wrote: Well it certainly sounds like what happened to ... it was certainly worse than nothing at the time. This was, if memory serves, around '99 or '00, and the side effects did not seem permanent -- although in retrospect our failure with that strategy was ominous.Warfarin kills rats by causing them to bleed to death, and now that you mention it, I think Berg's rationale against Warfarin / Coumadin at the time had something to do with a rather narrow range of clinical effectiveness -- somewhat touchy and individualistic. He thought Heparin was safer to work with, especially long term. Maybe he just didn't want to be bothered. If Glueck has really objectively determined that Warfarin is more effective, and he's as careful as he claims, then

maybe it's the way to go.--BobPenny Houle wrote: He's adamant that Heparin can't get the job done. I don't recall the reasoning, but I think he believes that if you don't get the job done right, the effects of trying can be worse than doing nothing? Perhaps this is what happened in your wife's case? My doc's very against coumadin, too. Which means I've got to find a way around that. I think coumadin's gotten a bad rep because doses are sometimes determined somewhat carelessly. I remember an in-law coming to visit who was on coumadin after a heart attack and he knicked himself and couldn't stop bleeding. It was very bizarre. Glueck is extremely diligent about determining dosages through testing. He believes that for people with the

clotting disorders, coumadin's not poison at all but can actually greatly extend a person's life by preventing serious disease. I don't know y et, but I'm sure willing to find out. pennyBob Grommes <bobbobgrommes> wrote: I heard somewhere that HEMEX is no more, or a t least that Berg isn't there ... anyone happen to know?Yes, HEMEX pushed heparin, and some of the doctors ordering HEMEX tests were experimenting with an oral form of same. I don't recall the rationale.So Glueck likes the rat poison, eh? Does he say why?--BobPenny Houle wrote: Yes, another difference is that HEMEX seems

to push Heparin, and Glueck doesn't approve heparin. He says it has to be warfarin (the cheap version of coumadin). pennyNelly Pointis <janelpiedbauge (DOT) net> wrote: Yes, Bob, I agree, that's my take on this as well, hence the HUGE headaches I get when I take nattokinase with abx. Bu t in my case the coagulation tests didn't pick up anything abnormal. I am finding that after a few years on various abx combos, I can now tolerate some things much better than previously, like ginkgo biloba which I previously couldn't take. I might be slowly getting the numbers down, so that now my immune system + abx can deal with the extra load better. Good to see you still around, Bob. Often

thinking of you Nelly Re: [infections] Re: Preliminary report on coagulation testing My wife had the HEMEX testing several years ago and this was definitely a huge problem for her. She was off the charts on a couple of the tests and had apparently been laying down fibrinogen since forever.Unfortunately, six months of heparin treatment succeeded only in putting her in bed for six months with raging fevers. They stopped as soon as the heparin was

stopped. Either her body had swept so many critters under the rug that they overwhelmed her, or her immune system was responding strangely to whatever was exposed by the heparin.My take-away from that is, this is well worth checking and addressing. If you can deal with the side effects (which for many aren't bad) then you will be getting at organisms you otherwise wouldn't.--BobPenny Houle wrote: Yeah, I know, and I've tried to tell people about Glueck for a long time, but HEMEX has always dominated the discussions. Still, people like Ken Lassesen from cfs experimental have definitely found blood thinning to be an important part of their protocols. pennyhope0073 <hope0073 > wrote: Penny, et all--Am glad you got this testing done as it is probably amissing link for many. This was discussed very thoroughly on otherl ists, including CFSExperimental 3 or more years ago. The guru thenwas Berg of Hemex Lab. FWIW, Hope-

[Guest guest]

At the risk of sounding really dumb, I'm a CFS/EBV/FMer, and recently tried taking 200mg of grapeseed extract daily and found it really helped my energy level and pain, and helped me not get a horrible cold that was going through the house. I stopped last week because I had a blood draw in prep for surgery and at least for that day my arm wouldn't stop bleeding without forceful pressure. Which is to say i believe it has blood thinning properties. For what it's worth.

infections From: bob@...Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 15:35:39 -0700Subject: Re: [infections] Re: Preliminary report on coagulation testing

Well it certainly sounds like what happened to ... it was certainly worse than nothing at the time. This was, if memory serves, around '99 or '00, and the side effects did not seem permanent -- although in retrospect our failure with that strategy was ominous.Warfarin kills rats by causing them to bleed to death, and now that you mention it, I think Berg's rationale against Warfarin / Coumadin at the time had something to do with a rather narrow range of clinical effectiveness -- somewhat touchy and individualistic. He thought Heparin was safer to work with, especially long term. Maybe he just didn't want to be bothered. If Glueck has really objectively determined that Warfarin is more effective, and he's as careful as he claims, then maybe it's the way to go.--BobPenny Houle wrote:

He's adamant that Heparin can't get the job done. I don't recall the reasoning, but I think he believes that if you don't get the job done right, the effects of trying can be worse than doing nothing? Perhaps this is what happened in your wife's case?

My doc's very against coumadin, too. Which means I've got to find a way around that. I think coumadin's gotten a bad rep because doses are sometimes determined somewhat carelessly. I remember an in-law coming to visit who was on coumadin after a heart attack and he knicked himself and couldn't stop bleeding. It was very bizarre. Glueck is extremely diligent about determining dosages through testing. He believes that for people with the clotting disorders, coumadin's not poison at all but can actually greatly extend a person's life by preventing serious disease. I don't know y et, but I'm sure willing to find out.

pennyBob Grommes <bobbobgrommes> wrote:

I heard somewhere that HEMEX is no more, or at least that Berg isn't there ... anyone happen to know?Yes, HEMEX pushed heparin, and some of the doctors ordering HEMEX tests were experimenting with an oral form of same. I don't recall the rationale.So Glueck likes the rat poison, eh? Does he say why?--BobPenny Houle wrote:

Yes, another difference is that HEMEX seems to push Heparin, and Glueck doesn't approve heparin. He says it has to be warfarin (the cheap version of coumadin).

pennyNelly Pointis <janelpiedbauge (DOT) net> wrote:

Yes, Bob, I agree, that's my take on this as well, hence the HUGE headaches I get when I take nattokinase with abx. But in my case the coagulation tests didn't pick up anything abnormal. I am finding that after a few years on various abx combos, I can now tolerate some things much better than previously, like ginkgo biloba which I previously couldn't take. I might be slowly getting the numbers down, so that now my immune system + abx can deal with the extra load better.

Good to see you still around, Bob. Often thinking of you

Nelly

Re: [infections] Re: Preliminary report on coagulation testing

My wife had the HEMEX testing several years ago and this was definitely a huge problem for her. She was off the charts on a couple of the tests and had apparently been laying down fibrinogen since forever.Unfortunately, six months of heparin treatment succeeded only in putting her in bed for six months with raging fevers. They stopped as soon as the heparin was stopped. Either her body had swept so many critters under the rug that they overwhelmed her, or her immune system was responding strangely to whatever was exposed by the heparin.My take-away from that is, this is well worth checking and addressing. If you can deal with the side effects (which for many aren't bad) then you will be getting at organisms you otherwise wouldn't.--BobPenny Houle wrote:

Yeah, I know, and I've tried to tell people about Glueck for a long time, but HEMEX has always dominated the discussions. Still, people like Ken Lassesen from cfs experimental have definitely found blood thinning to be an important part of their protocols.

pennyhope0073 <hope0073 > wrote:

Penny, et all--Am glad you got this testing done as it is probably amissing link for many. This was discussed very thoroughly on otherl ists, including CFSExperimental 3 or more years ago. The guru thenwas Berg of Hemex Lab. FWIW, Hope-

[Guest guest]

I don't think that's dumb at all. It's really good to put in the helpful information file. Thanks for reporting your experience. It's going to take different things for different people, that's one thing I feel is pretty safe to believe. penny SHELLEY REED <sreedp@...> wrote: At the risk of sounding really dumb, I'm a CFS/EBV/FMer, and recently tried taking 200mg of grapeseed extract daily and found it really helped my energy

level and pain, and helped me not get a horrible cold that was going through the house. I stopped last week because I had a blood draw in prep for surgery and at least for that day my arm wouldn't stop bleeding without forceful pressure. Which is to say i believe it has blood thinning properties. For what it's worth. infections From: bobbobgrommesDate: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 15:35:39 -0700Subject: Re: [infections] Re: Preliminary report on coagulation testing Well it certainly sounds like what happened to ... it was certainly worse than nothing at the time. This was, if memory serves, around '99 or '00, and the side effects did not seem permanent -- although in retrospect our failure with that

strategy was ominous.Warfarin kills rats by causing them to bleed to death, and now that you mention it, I think Berg's rationale against Warfarin / Coumadin at the time had something to do with a rather narrow range of clinical effectiveness -- somewhat touchy and individualistic. He thought Heparin was safer to work with, especially long term. Maybe he just didn't want to be bothered. If Glueck has really objectively determined that Warfarin is more effective, and he's as careful as he claims, then maybe it's the way to go.--BobPenny Houle wrote: He's adamant that Heparin can't get the job done. I don't recall the reasoning, but I think he believes that if you don't get the job done right, the effects of trying can be worse than doing nothing? Perhaps this is what happened in your wife's

case? My doc's very against coumadin, too. Which means I've got to find a way around that. I think coumadin's gotten a bad rep because doses are sometimes determined somewhat carelessly. I remember an in-law coming to visit who was on coumadin after a heart attack and he knicked himself and couldn't stop bleeding. It was very bizarre. Glueck is extremely diligent about determining dosages through testing. He believes that for people with the clotting disorders, coumadin's not poison at all but can actually greatly extend a person's life by preventing serious disease. I don't know y et, but I'm sure willing to find out. pennyBob Grommes <bobbobgrommes> wrote: I heard somewhere that HEMEX is no more, or at

least that Berg isn't there ... anyone happen to know?Yes, HEMEX pushed heparin, and some of the doctors ordering HEMEX tests were experimenting with an oral form of same. I don't recall the rationale.So Glueck likes the rat poison, eh? Does he say why?--BobPenny Houle wrote: Yes, another difference is that HEMEX seems to push Heparin, and Glueck doesn't approve heparin. He says it has to be warfarin (the cheap version of coumadin). pennyNelly Pointis <janelpiedbauge (DOT) net> wrote: Yes, Bob, I agree, that's my take on this as well, hence the HUGE headaches I get when I take nattokinase with abx. But in my case the coagulation tests didn't pick up anything

abnormal. I am finding that after a few years on various abx combos, I can now tolerate some things much better than previously, like ginkgo biloba which I previously couldn't take. I might be slowly getting the numbers down, so that now my immune system + abx can deal with the extra load better. Good to see you still around, Bob. Often thinking of you Nelly Re: [infections] Re: Preliminary report on coagulation testing My wife had the HEMEX testing several years ago and this was definitely a huge problem for her. She was off the charts on a couple of the tests and had apparently been laying down fibrinogen since forever.Unfortunately, six months of heparin treatment succeeded only in

putting her in bed for six months with raging fevers. They stopped as soon as the heparin was stopped. Either her body had swept so many critters under the rug that they overwhelmed her, or her immune system was responding strangely to whatever was exposed by the heparin.My take-away from that is, this is well worth checking and addressing. If you can deal with the side effects (which for many aren't bad) then you will be getting at organisms you otherwise wouldn't.--BobPenny Houle wrote: Yeah, I know, and I've tried to tell people about Glueck for a long time, but HEMEX has always dominated the discussions. Still, people like Ken Lassesen from cfs experimental have definitely found blood thinning to be an important part of their protocols. pennyhope0073

<hope0073 > wrote: Penny, et all--Am glad you got this testing done as it is probably amissing link for many. This was discussed very thoroughly on otherl ists, including CFSExperimental 3 or more years ago. The guru thenwas Berg of Hemex Lab. FWIW, Hope-

[Guest guest]

Hi Tony -

I don't have that data with me, I will be able to look it up on Monday and let you know. Warning, I'm not as sophisticated on medical vocabulary as you folks are, but I do know I have data on clotting and RBC, which I believe is what you are referring to. I recall that I was not anemic and I had one clotting figure out of sorts. My father has a clotting disorder which I am trying to get more information on because I think it would help explain the pain if I have inherited that. Also curious to me, he had polio as a young man and recently Nova (PBS) had a show about how we inherit more than genes from our parents, that we can inheret any physical insults that they experienced as well.

I guess we're all longsuffering medical pioneers. I really appreciate the conversations you folks have here, thank you for all your hard work.

infections From: dumbaussie2000@...Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 23:30:19 +0000Subject: [infections] Re: Preliminary report on coagulation testing

Just curious, what was your platelet count like?I think often we do run pretty low platelet counts at times which mnay also explain this..tony>> > At the risk of sounding really dumb, I'm a CFS/EBV/FMer, and recently tried taking 200mg of grapeseed extract daily and found it really helped my energy level and pain, and helped me not get a horrible cold that was going through the house. I stopped last week because I had a blood draw in prep for surgery and at least for that day my arm wouldn't stop bleeding without forceful pressure. Which is to say i believe it has blood thinning properties. For what it's worth.> > > > >

[Guest guest]

"...recently Nova (PBS) had a show about how we inherit more than genes from our parents, that we can inheret any physical insults that they experienced as well." That is truly bizarre. I need to see that show. I've always kind of suspected that evolution comes in sudden leaps, in part to respond to environmental changes, not slow steady change as we've been taught. Weird. penny p.s. at this rate, we're going to evolve out of this disease before doctors ever figure it out. :-) SHELLEY REED <sreedp@...> wrote: Hi Tony - I don't have that data with me, I will be able to look it up on Monday and let you know. Warning, I'm not as sophisticated on medical vocabulary as you folks are, but I do know I have data on clotting and RBC, which I believe is what you are referring to. I recall that I was not anemic and I had one clotting figure out of sorts. My father has a clotting disorder which I am trying to get more information on because I think it would help explain the pain if I have inherited that. Also curious to me, he had polio as a young man and recently Nova (PBS) had a show about how we inherit more than genes from our parents, that we can inheret any physical insults that they experienced as well. I guess we're all longsuffering medical pioneers. I really appreciate the conversations you folks have here,

thank you for all your hard work. infections From: dumbaussie2000 .auDate: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 23:30:19 +0000Subject: [infections] Re: Preliminary report on coagulation testing Just curious, what was your platelet count like?I think often we do run pretty low platelet counts at times which mnay also explain this..tony>> > At the risk of sounding really dumb, I'm a CFS/EBV/FMer, and recently tried taking 200mg of grapeseed extract daily and found it really helped my energy level and pain, and helped me not get a horrible cold that was going

through the house. I stopped last week because I had a blood draw in prep for surgery and at least for that day my arm wouldn't stop bleeding without forceful pressure. Which is to say i believe it has blood thinning properties. For what it's worth.> > > > >

[Guest guest]

The was Ghost in Your

Genes, about epigenetics. Didn't see it myself, however, some

friends mentioned it and said it was good. Here's a link (watch out

for word wrap):

www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/genes/?campaign=pbshomefeatures_4_novabrghostinyourgenes_2007-10-17

--Bob

Penny Houle wrote:

"...recently Nova (PBS) had a show about how we inherit more

than genes from our parents, that we can inheret any physical insults

that they experienced as well."

That is truly bizarre. I need to see that show. I've always kind

of suspected that evolution comes in sudden leaps, in part to respond

to environmental changes, not slow steady change as we've been taught.

Weird.

penny

p.s. at this rate, we're going to evolve out of this disease

before doctors ever figure it out. :-)

SHELLEY REED <sreedp@...> wrote:

Hi Tony -

I don't have that data with me, I will be able to look it up on Monday

and let you know. Warning, I'm not as sophisticated on medical

vocabulary as you folks are, but I do know I have data on clotting and

RBC, which I believe is what you are referring to. I recall that I was

not anemic and I had one clotting figure out of sorts. My father has a

clotting disorder which I am trying to get more information on because

I think it would help explain the pain if I have inherited that. Also

curious to me, he had polio as a young man and recently Nova (PBS) had

a show about how we inherit more than genes from our parents, that we

can inheret any physical insults that they experienced as well.

I guess we're all longsuffering medical pioneers. I really appreciate

the conversations you folks have here, thank you for all your hard work.

infections

From: dumbaussie2000 .au

Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 23:30:19 +0000

Subject: [infections] Re: Preliminary report on

coagulation testing

Just curious, what was your platelet count like?I think often we do

run pretty low platelet counts at times which mnay also explain this..

tony

>

>

> At the risk of sounding really dumb, I'm a CFS/EBV/FMer, and

recently tried taking 200mg of grapeseed extract daily and found it

really helped my energy level and pain, and helped me not get a

horrible cold that was go ing through the house. I stopped last week

because I had a blood draw in prep for surgery and at least for that

day my arm wouldn't stop bleeding without forceful pressure. Which

is to say i believe it has blood thinning properties. For what it's

worth.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Nothing would make me happier than for the DD to evolve out of existence. I could hardly believe my eyes and ears when I watched that show. I'll see if I can find that link for you.

All the best,

infections From: pennyhoule@...Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:28:09 -0700Subject: RE: [infections] Re: Preliminary report on coagulation testing

"...recently Nova (PBS) had a show about how we inherit more than genes from our parents, that we can inheret any physical insults that they experienced as well."

That is truly bizarre. I need to see that show. I've always kind of suspected that evolution comes in sudden leaps, in part to respond to environmental changes, not slow steady change as we've been taught. Weird.

penny

p.s. at this rate, we're going to evolve out of this disease before doctors ever figure it out. :-)

SHELLEY REED <sreedp@...> wrote:

Hi Tony - I don't have that data with me, I will be able to look it up on Monday and let you know. Warning, I'm not as sophisticated on medical vocabulary as you folks are, but I do know I have data on clotting and RBC, which I believe is what you are referring to. I recall that I was not anemic and I had one clotting figure out of sorts. My father has a clotting disorder which I am trying to get more information on because I think it would help explain the pain if I have inherited that. Also curious to me, he had polio as a young man and recently Nova (PBS) had a show about how we inherit more than genes from our parents, that we can inheret any physical insults that they experienced as well. I guess we're all longsuffering medical pioneers. I really appreciate the conversations you folks have here, thank you for all your hard work.

infections From: dumbaussie2000 .auDate: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 23:30:19 +0000Subject: [infections] Re: Preliminary report on coagulation testing

Just curious, what was your platelet count like?I think often we do run pretty low platelet counts at times which mnay also explain this..tony>> > At the risk of sounding really dumb, I'm a CFS/EBV/FMer, and recently tried taking 200mg of grapeseed extract daily and found it really helped my energy level and pain, and helped me not get a horrible cold that was going through the house. I stopped last week because I had a blood draw in prep for surgery and at least for that day my arm wouldn't stop bleeding without forceful pressure. Which is to say i believe it has blood thinning properties. For what it's worth.> > > > >

[Guest guest]

That's the one. Thank you, Bob

S.

infections From: bob@...Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 10:01:03 -0700Subject: Re: [infections] Re: Preliminary report on coagulation testing

The was Ghost in Your Genes, about epigenetics. Didn't see it myself, however, some friends mentioned it and said it was good. Here's a link (watch out for word wrap):www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/genes/?campaign=pbshomefeatures_4_novabrghostinyourgenes_2007-10-17--BobPenny Houle wrote:

"...recently Nova (PBS) had a show about how we inherit more than genes from our parents, that we can inheret any physical insults that they experienced as well."

That is truly bizarre. I need to see that show. I've always kind of suspected that evolution comes in sudden leaps, in part to respond to environmental changes, not slow steady change as we've been taught. Weird.

penny

p.s. at this rate, we're going to evolve out of this disease before doctors ever figure it out. :-)

SHELLEY REED <sreedp@...> wrote:

Hi Tony - I don't have that data with me, I will be able to look it up on Monday and let you know. Warning, I'm not as sophisticated on medical vocabulary as you folks are, but I do know I have data on clotting and RBC, which I believe is what you are referring to. I recall that I was not anemic and I had one clotting figure out of sorts. My father has a clotting disorder which I am trying to get more information on because I think it would help explain the pain if I have inherited that. Also curious to me, he had polio as a young man and recently Nova (PBS) had a show about how we inherit more than genes from our parents, that we can inheret any physical insults that they experienced as well. I guess we're all longsuffering medical pioneers. I really appreciate the conversations you folks have here, thank you for all your hard work.

infections From: dumbaussie2000 .auDate: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 23:30:19 +0000Subject: [infections] Re: Preliminary report on coagulation testing

Just curious, what was your platelet count like?I think often we do run pretty low platelet counts at times which mnay also explain this..tony>> > At the risk of sounding really dumb, I'm a CFS/EBV/FMer, and recently tried taking 200mg of grapeseed extract daily and found it really helped my energy level and pain, and helped me not get a horrible cold that was go ing through the house. I stopped last week because I had a blood draw in prep for surgery and at least for that day my arm wouldn't stop bleeding without forceful pressure. Which is to say i believe it has blood thinning properties. For what it's worth.> > > > >

[Guest guest]

The film is on the torrents if you can download the torrenthttps://sdlc4a.sun.com:443/ECom/SDMIntegratedor herehttp://torrents.to/search/247/ghost+in+your+genes.htmlthen you download it with some torrent download software like Azureussteve On 3 Nov 2007, at 18:05, SHELLEY REED wrote:Nothing would make me happier than for the DD to evolve out of existence.  I could hardly believe my eyes and ears when I watched that show.  I'll see if I can find that link for you. All the best,infections From: pennyhoule Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:28:09 -0700Subject: RE: [infections] Re: Preliminary report on coagulation testing"...recently Nova (PBS) had a show about how we inherit more than genes from our parents, that we can inheret any physical insults that they experienced as well."That is truly bizarre. I need to see that show. I've always kind of suspected that evolution comes in sudden leaps, in part to respond to environmental changes, not slow steady change as we've been taught. Weird. penny p.s. at this rate, we're going to evolve out of this disease before doctors ever figure it out. :-)  SHELLEY REED <sreedp@...> wrote:Hi Tony - I don't have that data with me, I will be able to look it up on Monday and let you know.  Warning, I'm not as sophisticated on medical vocabulary as you folks are, but I do know I have data on clotting and RBC, which I believe is what you are referring to.  I recall that I was not anemic and I had one clotting figure out of sorts.  My father has a clotting disorder which I am trying to get more information on because I think it would help explain the pain if I have inherited that.  Also curious to me, he had polio as a young man and recently Nova (PBS) had a show about how we inherit more than genes from our parents, that we can inheret any physical insults that they experienced as well. I guess we're all longsuffering medical pioneers.  I really appreciate the conversations you folks have here, thank you for all your hard work.infections From: dumbaussie2000 .auDate: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 23:30:19 +0000Subject: [infections] Re: Preliminary report on coagulation testing Just curious, what was your platelet count like?I think often we do run pretty low platelet counts at times which mnay also explain this..tony>> > At the risk of sounding really dumb, I'm a CFS/EBV/FMer, and recently tried taking 200mg of grapeseed extract daily and found it really helped my energy level and pain, and helped me not get a horrible cold that was going through the house. I stopped last week because I had a blood draw in prep for surgery and at least for that day my arm wouldn't stop bleeding without forceful pressure. Which is to say i believe it has blood thinning properties. For what it's worth.> > > > >

[Guest guest]

Thank you, Steve. Question for the group: I have to have drive through surgery in a few weeks and my instincts tell me to stay away from general anesthesia, I've got some really goofy day to day neurological symptoms like numness in hands, and major delay in sensations, like running up a large staircase and not physically needing deep breathing until I'm all the way up and away from the stairs, then my heart starts to pound, etc., brain freeze from frozen food four minutes after eating it. I'm thinking of going with an epidural to try to keep my brain out of it. Is my reasoning somewhat on track?

Thank you,

infections From: colourbleu@...Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 18:18:23 +0100Subject: Re: [infections] Re: Preliminary report on coagulation testing

The film is on the torrents if you can download the torrent https://sdlc4a.sun.com:443/ECom/SDMIntegrated

or here

http://torrents.to/search/247/ghost+in+your+genes.html

then you download it with some torrent download software like Azureus

steve

On 3 Nov 2007, at 18:05, SHELLEY REED wrote:

Nothing would make me happier than for the DD to evolve out of existence. I could hardly believe my eyes and ears when I watched that show. I'll see if I can find that link for you. All the best,

infections From: pennyhoule Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:28:09 -0700Subject: RE: [infections] Re: Preliminary report on coagulation testing

"...recently Nova (PBS) had a show about how we inherit more than genes from our parents, that we can inheret any physical insults that they experienced as well."

That is truly bizarre. I need to see that show. I've always kind of suspected that evolution comes in sudden leaps, in part to respond to environmental changes, not slow steady change as we've been taught. Weird.

penny

p.s. at this rate, we're going to evolve out of this disease before doctors ever figure it out. :-)

SHELLEY REED <sreedp@...> wrote:

Hi Tony - I don't have that data with me, I will be able to look it up on Monday and let you know. Warning, I'm not as sophisticated on medical vocabulary as you folks are, but I do know I have data on clotting and RBC, which I believe is what you are referring to. I recall that I was not anemic and I had one clotting figure out of sorts. My father has a clotting disorder which I am trying to get more information on because I think it would help explain the pain if I have inherited that. Also curious to me, he had polio as a young man and recently Nova (PBS) had a show about how we inherit more than genes from our parents, that we can inheret any physical insults that they experienced as well. I guess we're all longsuffering medical pioneers. I really appreciate the conversations you folks have here, thank you for all your hard work.

infections From: dumbaussie2000 .auDate: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 23:30:19 +0000Subject: [infections] Re: Preliminary report on coagulation testing

Just curious, what was your platelet count like?I think often we do run pretty low platelet counts at times which mnay also explain this..tony>> > At the risk of sounding really dumb, I'm a CFS/EBV/FMer, and recently tried taking 200mg of grapeseed extract daily and found it really helped my energy level and pain, and helped me not get a horrible cold that was going through the house. I stopped last week because I had a blood draw in prep for surgery and at least for that day my arm wouldn't stop bleeding without forceful pressure. Which is to say i believe it has blood thinning properties. For what it's worth.> > > > >

[Guest guest]

maybe look into your potassium levels, try a little of it to see if it changes anything or if your very sensitive to it, this can I have found cause symptoms like you describe. Dont take a lot, little bits every day..sOn 3 Nov 2007, at 19:24, SHELLEY REED wrote:Thank you, Steve.  Question for the group:  I have to have drive through surgery in a few weeks and my instincts tell me to stay away from general anesthesia, I've got some really goofy day to day neurological symptoms like numness in hands, and major delay in sensations, like running up a large staircase and not physically needing deep breathing until I'm all the way up and away from the stairs, then my heart starts to pound, etc., brain freeze from frozen food four minutes after eating it.  I'm thinking of going with an epidural to try to keep my brain out of it.  Is my reasoning somewhat on track? Thank you, infections From: colourbleufree (DOT) frDate: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 18:18:23 +0100Subject: Re: [infections] Re: Preliminary report on coagulation testingThe film is on the torrents if you can download the torrenthttps://sdlc4a.sun.com:443/ECom/SDMIntegratedor herehttp://torrents.to/search/247/ghost+in+your+genes.htmlthen you download it with some torrent download software like Azureussteve On 3 Nov 2007, at 18:05, SHELLEY REED wrote:Nothing would make me happier than for the DD to evolve out of existence.  I could hardly believe my eyes and ears when I watched that show.  I'll see if I can find that link for you. All the best,infections From: pennyhoule Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:28:09 -0700Subject: RE: [infections] Re: Preliminary report on coagulation testing"...recently Nova (PBS) had a show about how we inherit more than genes from our parents, that we can inheret any physical insults that they experienced as well."That is truly bizarre. I need to see that show. I've always kind of suspected that evolution comes in sudden leaps, in part to respond to environmental changes, not slow steady change as we've been taught. Weird. penny p.s. at this rate, we're going to evolve out of this disease before doctors ever figure it out. :-)  SHELLEY REED <sreedp@...> wrote:Hi Tony - I don't have that data with me, I will be able to look it up on Monday and let you know.  Warning, I'm not as sophisticated on medical vocabulary as you folks are, but I do know I have data on clotting and RBC, which I believe is what you are referring to.  I recall that I was not anemic and I had one clotting figure out of sorts.  My father has a clotting disorder which I am trying to get more information on because I think it would help explain the pain if I have inherited that.  Also curious to me, he had polio as a young man and recently Nova (PBS) had a show about how we inherit more than genes from our parents, that we can inheret any physical insults that they experienced as well. I guess we're all longsuffering medical pioneers.  I really appreciate the conversations you folks have here, thank you for all your hard work.infections From: dumbaussie2000 .auDate: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 23:30:19 +0000Subject: [infections] Re: Preliminary report on coagulation testing Just curious, what was your platelet count like?I think often we do run pretty low platelet counts at times which mnay also explain this..tony>> > At the risk of sounding really dumb, I'm a CFS/EBV/FMer, and recently tried taking 200mg of grapeseed extract daily and found it really helped my energy level and pain, and helped me not get a horrible cold that was going through the house. I stopped last week because I had a blood draw in prep for surgery and at least for that day my arm wouldn't stop bleeding without forceful pressure. Which is to say i believe it has blood thinning properties. For what it's worth.> > > > >

[Guest guest]

Thank you, I'll try it.

S.

infections From: colourbleu@...Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 19:58:40 +0100Subject: Re: [infections] Re: Preliminary report on coagulation testing

maybe look into your potassium levels, try a little of it to see if it changes anything or if your very sensitive to it, this can I have found cause symptoms like you describe. Dont take a lot, little bits every day.. s

On 3 Nov 2007, at 19:24, SHELLEY REED wrote:

Thank you, Steve. Question for the group: I have to have drive through surgery in a few weeks and my instincts tell me to stay away from general anesthesia, I've got some really goofy day to day neurological symptoms like numness in hands, and major delay in sensations, like running up a large staircase and not physically needing deep breathing until I'm all the way up and away from the stairs, then my heart starts to pound, etc., brain freeze from frozen food four minutes after eating it. I'm thinking of going with an epidural to try to keep my brain out of it. Is my reasoning somewhat on track? Thank you,

infections From: colourbleufree (DOT) frDate: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 18:18:23 +0100Subject: Re: [infections] Re: Preliminary report on coagulation testing

The film is on the torrents if you can download the torrent https://sdlc4a.sun.com:443/ECom/SDMIntegrated

or here

http://torrents.to/search/247/ghost+in+your+genes.html

then you download it with some torrent download software like Azureus

steve

On 3 Nov 2007, at 18:05, SHELLEY REED wrote:

Nothing would make me happier than for the DD to evolve out of existence. I could hardly believe my eyes and ears when I watched that show. I'll see if I can find that link for you. All the best,

infections From: pennyhoule Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:28:09 -0700Subject: RE: [infections] Re: Preliminary report on coagulation testing

"...recently Nova (PBS) had a show about how we inherit more than genes from our parents, that we can inheret any physical insults that they experienced as well."

That is truly bizarre. I need to see that show. I've always kind of suspected that evolution comes in sudden leaps, in part to respond to environmental changes, not slow steady change as we've been taught. Weird.

penny

p.s. at this rate, we're going to evolve out of this disease before doctors ever figure it out. :-)

SHELLEY REED <sreedp@...> wrote:

Hi Tony - I don't have that data with me, I will be able to look it up on Monday and let you know. Warning, I'm not as sophisticated on medical vocabulary as you folks are, but I do know I have data on clotting and RBC, which I believe is what you are referring to. I recall that I was not anemic and I had one clotting figure out of sorts. My father has a clotting disorder which I am trying to get more information on because I think it would help explain the pain if I have inherited that. Also curious to me, he had polio as a young man and recently Nova (PBS) had a show about how we inherit more than genes from our parents, that we can inheret any physical insults that they experienced as well. I guess we're all longsuffering medical pioneers. I really appreciate the conversations you folks have here, thank you for all your hard work.

infections From: dumbaussie2000 .auDate: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 23:30:19 +0000Subject: [infections] Re: Preliminary report on coagulation testing

Just curious, what was your platelet count like?I think often we do run pretty low platelet counts at times which mnay also explain this..tony>> > At the risk of sounding really dumb, I'm a CFS/EBV/FMer, and recently tried taking 200mg of grapeseed extract daily and found it really helped my energy level and pain, and helped me not get a horrible cold that was going through the house. I stopped last week because I had a blood draw in prep for surgery and at least for that day my arm wouldn't stop bleeding without forceful pressure. Which is to say i believe it has blood thinning properties. For what it's worth.> > > > >