Re: Re: What is penicillin VK doing?

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So, okay, that's great. But do you understand my point? If you get immediate relief of symptoms that's a typical & common reaction to an antibiotic knocking an infection way back. People who get this kind of relief assume just that, not that it's some kind of glutamate thing. I have a hard time following your logic. You have so many screaming signs of a chronic sinus infection and yet you always seem to try to find some other answer for it. I just don't get it. Maybe this will get your attention... if you have an infection of the small sphenoid sinus in the back of your head near your pituitary gland and it goes untreated for a long time, it can kill you. Here's something else to ponder. The dural venous (cranial) sinuses are found between layers of dura mater in the brain. If they become septic you will most likely die; if the infection just lays low, who knows how many weird diseases might be created? One that comes to mind, cerebal palsy... Septic thrombosis of the dural venous sinuses. Southwick FS, EP Jr, Swartz MN. From 1940 to 1984, 19 cases of septic dural-sinus thrombosis have been diagnosed at the Massachusetts General Hospital, and some 136 cases have been reported from other institutions. Septic thrombosis most frequently involves the cavernous sinuses (96 cases). Facial or sphenoid air sinus infection often precede cavernous-sinus disease. In addition to the classical signs of proptosis, chemosis, and oculomotor paralysis, isolated sixth-nerve palsy and hypo- or hyperesthesia of the fifth nerve may be found. The major pathogens associated with cavernous-sinus infection include Staphylococcus aureus, other gram-positive organisms, and anaerobes. Septic lateral-sinus thrombosis (64 cases) is almost exclusively a complication of otitis media

and/or mastoid infection. Organisms causing this infection include Proteus species, Escherichia coli, S. aureus, and anaerobes. Septic thrombosis of the superior sagittal sinus (23 cases) most frequently accompanies bacterial meningitis or air sinus infection. Causative organisms include Streptococcus pneumoniae, S. aureus, other streptococci, and Klebsiella species. Because septic dural-sinus thrombosis is rare, this disease is frequently misdiagnosed. Evaluation should include lumbar puncture, air sinus films, and computed tomographic scan with contrast. Other helpful diagnostic tests may include carotid angiography, and dynamic brain scan. Orbital venography is the most definitive study in cases of chronic cavernous-sinus thrombosis. Therapy should include intravenous antibiotics and early surgical drainage of purulent exudate in the air sinuses or mastoid regions. Retrospective analysis suggests that treatment with heparin may reduce mortality in carefully selected

cases of septic cavernous-sinus thrombosis. Anticoagulation is not recommended in other forms of septic dural-sinus thrombosis. Mortality in the antibiotic-era remains high, particularly in patients with septic thrombosis of the cavernous (30%) and superior sagittal (78%) sinuses. PMID: 3512953 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=3512953 & dopt=AbstractPluspjeanneus <pj7@...> wrote: Hi Penny,Actually, no, I have never had a serious sinus infection. I had never taken any antibiotics for anything except a breast infection when I was breastfeeding my kids. I only started taking antibiotics in 1996 after I was diagnosed with mycoplasma. I know that the professional singers I used to sing with would go from SC to New York city to a specialist who would prescribe 4 weeks of antibiotics for their sinus infections. They liked this guy because his protocol actually cured the sinus trouble. Currently for the past 16 months I have no signs of any sinus trouble. I did have thrush at the time my throat was injured by the laryngoscope or whatever you call it.a>> a,> > Haven't you ever had a sinus infection before? If you take the right abx it knocks the

infection back fast and your symptoms, which usually include headache, disappear almost immediately! This happens to all kinds of infections, kids with ear infections, sinus infections, it happens to everybody. The trick, especially with us, is clearing the entrenched infection for good rather than just knocking it back.> > penny>

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I'm surprised. You've never had a child with an ear infection who is almost immediately better when given amoxycillin? You have a child screaming in pain all day and 2 hours after taking a pill, they're playing like they were never sick. I'm not disputing that glutamate could be involved somehow, but it seems you're always looking for the exotic answer rather than the obvious. Maybe your headache's gone because you're taking penicillin. And if you don't take enough or mix it with another abx, then in a couple of weeks or a couple of months, you may very well see the symptoms return. That's what abx resistance does. I've got a worker here right now who has an obvious sinus infection going on. And a massive headache. He want's to "work the virus out of his system" and not take any meds. I can guarantee you that if he took the right abx, he'd be feeling a thousand percent

better in a few hours. But if he's lucky, this will take days to start to improve, and by the looks of it we could be talking weeks. I just hope he does eventually clear it somehow. Not do what I did 20 years ago and ignore it until it "went away". pennypjeanneus <pj7@...> wrote: I thought people did not get immediate relief from symptoms on an antibiotic. I am talking about relief in 2 hours, not 24. Of course "people" assume their improvement is due to the antibiotic killing germs. Only scientists question

this assumption. Matt Phagelod made a good point: if the penicillin VK is reducing glutamate levels in the brain IT WILL ONLY WORK FOR ABOUT 2 WEEKS.I've been tested by lumbar puncture for every bacteria mentioned in your research article below. IT'S NOT THAT I DON'T THINK THIS IS AN OCCULT INFECTION I DON'T HAVE A LAB IN MY BASEMENT TO GROW CULTURES. I JUST HAD 10 VIALS OF BLOOD DRAWN THIS MORNING TO TEST FOR MORE INFECTIONS. Besides, I don't even have a basement. Nobody in Vegas wants to dig out the rock to build one, just like no one here is willing to grow cultures for obscure bacteria in people's spinal fluid.a Carnesrelatively headache free and brainfog free for NOW.> So, okay, that's great. But do you understand my point? If you get immediate relief of symptoms that's a typical & common reaction to an antibiotic knocking an infection way back. People who get this kind of

relief assume just that, not that it's some kind of glutamate thing.> > I have a hard time following your logic. You have so many screaming signs of a chronic sinus infection and yet you always seem to try to find some other answer for it. I just don't get it.> > Maybe this will get your attention... if you have an infection of the small sphenoid sinus in the back of your head near your pituitary gland and it goes untreated for a long time, it can kill you.> > Here's something else to ponder. The dural venous (cranial) sinuses are found between layers of dura mater in the brain. If they become septic you will most likely die; if the infection just lays low, who knows how many weird diseases might be created? One that comes to mind, cerebal palsy... > > Septic thrombosis of the dural venous sinuses. Southwick FS, EP Jr, Swartz MN.> From 1940 to 1984, 19 cases of

septic dural-sinus thrombosis have been diagnosed at the Massachusetts General Hospital, and some 136 cases have been reported from other institutions. Septic thrombosis most frequently involves the cavernous sinuses (96 cases). Facial or sphenoid air sinus infection often precede cavernous-sinus disease. In addition to the classical signs of proptosis, chemosis, and oculomotor paralysis, isolated sixth-nerve palsy and hypo- or hyperesthesia of the fifth nerve may be found. The major pathogens associated with cavernous-sinus infection include Staphylococcus aureus, other gram-positive organisms, and anaerobes. Septic lateral-sinus thrombosis (64 cases) is almost exclusively a complication of otitis media and/or mastoid infection. Organisms causing this infection include Proteus species, Escherichia coli, S. aureus, and anaerobes. Septic thrombosis of the superior sagittal sinus (23 cases) most frequently accompanies

bacterial meningitis or> air sinus infection. Causative organisms include Streptococcus pneumoniae, S. aureus, other streptococci, and Klebsiella species. Because septic dural-sinus thrombosis is rare, this disease is frequently misdiagnosed. Evaluation should include lumbar puncture, air sinus films, and computed tomographic scan with contrast. Other helpful diagnostic tests may include carotid angiography, and dynamic brain scan. Orbital venography is the most definitive study in cases of chronic cavernous-sinus thrombosis. Therapy should include intravenous antibiotics and early surgical drainage of purulent exudate in the air sinuses or mastoid regions. Retrospective analysis suggests that treatment with heparin may reduce mortality in carefully selected cases of septic cavernous-sinus thrombosis. Anticoagulation is not recommended in other forms of septic dural-sinus thrombosis. Mortality in the antibiotic-era

remains high, particularly in patients with septic thrombosis of the cavernous> (30%) and superior sagittal (78%) sinuses.> PMID: 3512953 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=3512953 & dopt=AbstractPlus>

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I don't know, a. Does glutamate reduce fever and other obvious signs of infection? It might be a nice plus, but I don't think it's what hospital docs have on their minds when treating a patient with an active infection. Yes, a good dose of abx can kill a lot of bugs and you can get quick relief. Ask anyone who's had a quick turn around in the hospital. The trick for us is maintaining an effective offensive once we get started because the bugs can regroup pretty quickly. That's why you hear people like Tony preaching LARGE hospital type dosages of abx, not the small amounts we tend to tinker around with. And that's why most infectious treatment guys preach multiple abx. Geez, a, it IS frustrating having this conversation with you. I can't tell you how many people I know who've been in your exact position who quickly respond to abx and then have the

sense to realize that the direction they need to move in is figuring out how to identify (if possible) and knock their infections down. And to find doctors who will help them do THAT. I can tell right away if an abx is helping me or not. Within hours, my symptoms begin subsiding. My bugs were resistant to numerous abx when I contracted them, so finding the correct abx is extremely important. This is why I've always had a hard time listening to people who take an abx for weeks with no results or with worsening symptoms, which they attribute to herx. An occasional herx makes sense and would be a good sign. A long term herx is nonsensical and is actually a very bad sign, in my opinion. When a drug works for you, build on that, don't ignore it because of some preconditioned notions you have about your illness. penny pjeanneus <pj7@...> wrote: Tony, for what it is worth let me just correct a few things. I never thought all I had was thrush. No one gets vestibular nerve damage, nystagmus, and eventually disturbed vision from thrush that cleared up in a few days.I had a big fight with the infectious disease specialist because I tried to convince him I had some sort of chronic infection. He refused to prescribe the penicillin VK. I never suggested it would lower glutamate. I might suggest this to a neurologist but not

an infectious disease specialist. Besides I didn't know it at the time.But let me try to figure out what you are suggesting here. Are you saying that the reason my headache disappeared in about 2 hours was because the penicillin VK turned all the infections off at once, stopping them from producing any toxins, thus I felt good and normal for the first time in months - since the last time I took penicillin VK which took about 5 days to kick in at all?I think it makes more sense that a higher dose of penicillin lowered glutamate levels quickly making me feel better and that I probably will gradually get the headache back even on penicillin as the glutamate levels slowly rise again.Meanwhile at that point I will double my dose of Lyrica because I simply cannot live with this level of pain and brain dysfunction anymore. It is too hard not being able to argue with you. I miss that so

much.a>> Penny> Remember that it's not the one bacteria that is causing the problem, > it's the switching them all on and off in harmony is what these drugs > can also achieve....But a only had thrush which is also another > guess.. thrush and pseudonomas are really only discovered in lab > tests ..> I would also think that any Infectious disease doctor would throw you > out his office if you tried telling him to give you penicillin for > glutamate toxicity..I'm sure it wouyld affect bacterial toxicity a > whole lot more when succesfully treating bugs..Remember it's the > toxins that hurt you not the bugs..

[Guest guest]

Fine, a, but you keep asking the questions, and we keep trying to answer based on our experience with people and situations exactly like yours. You're not going to get me to wildly speculate when there's an avenue right in front of you that should be considered seriously, imo. It doesn't matter how much we put in front of you, or what your body tells you, you keep looking for another way. It's obvious from your responses and your questions that you don't really pay any attention to what we've tried to share with you regarding infection and inflammation and how to cope. But hey, it's your road to travel. I wish you the best. penny p.s. I don't have my own personal infectious disease specialist either. But I somehow manage to get the abx I need to keep my nastiest symptoms in check, and to make my constant migraines almost

non existent. But what do I know? pjeanneus <pj7@...> wrote: Tony and Penny,You are the ones who have preconditioned notions about my illness. I am beginning to realize that my illness may or may not be ongoing infection.In any case I will be thrilled if the penicillin VK at 3 grams a day works. I seriously doubt it will. At least my doubt will remove the placebo effect.If the penicillin does not work I will up the dose of Lyrica I am on. You seem to think I have options. I do not. I

have no infectious disease specialist I can afford to see, and I am not at all certain this situation fits the infection scenario anyway. I saw a highly recommended neuro-opthamologist who treats Lyme patients agressively. I tend to think he is right that I need to be looking at other possibilities besides infection. So I shall continue another couple of weeks and see where the road leads without any preconditioned notions attached.a Carnes>> ******When a drug works for you, build on that, don't ignore it > because of some preconditioned notions you have about your illness.***> Penny it doesn't get any clearer than that.> Thanks Tony> > > > > >> > Tony and Matt,> >

> > So far since I started the penicillin VK on Tuesday morning and > took 3 grams> > a day my head ache decreased amazingly even on Tuesday. This would > SEEM to> > be the effect of reducing glutamate as I doubt there would be a > bacteria> > die-off that quickly. But I am just speculating. This is the first > time in> > 16 months I have strung 5 days of almost headache free time > together. > > > > I upped the Lyrica on Thursday night to 150 mg, but the headache > had already> > cleared for 2 days prior to that. Thursday evening it got somewhat > bad> > again, thus I decided to increase the Lyrica. I've been on 75 mg of > Lyrica> > every 12 hours, but this did NOT relieve the headache, only > temporarily> > cleared the symptoms until the Lyrica wore off, and some days it >

didn't even> > do that - bad days.> > > > a> > > > Matt> > I realised along time ago that the literature, that your so big on, > > isn't worth the paper it's written on most of the time.I can't > > really see anyone putting in penicillin and it having a reduction > in > > toxicity not an effect on the trillion organisms that are part of > the > > human body.> >>

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a, what does respect have to do with anything? Of course you can do anything you want. But you came here reporting problems which started after an obvious dental infection, which became an ear thing and a nerve thing and a head thing. The same symptoms so many others have who are dealing with chronic head/jaw/sinus infections. At least they're doing something about it. What's maddening is that you keep saying these symptoms are somehow different for you, or that the explanations don't apply to you. Why are you so different from so many other people I know? Why can't you explore these avenues? You could if you wanted to, just by doing some research. But you are determined that you are somehow special without showing any evidence of any such thing. You even report a remarkable turnaround right after starting penicillin, and you look for every reason other than the one the drug is intended for, --to fight

infection. Like I said, you can do and believe anything you want, but infection and inflammation are the focus of this list. There may be other diseases out there, but if you repeatedly come here reporting some pretty obvious symptoms of infection and/or inflammation, and refuse to seriously consider that as a real possibility, you're going to be met with some frustration. penny pjeanneus <pj7@...> wrote: Penny, I appreciate you and Tony. I really do. But I

don't think I have exactly the same situation as you. I realize you have clear evidence of sinus infection and dental problems. I don't fit that category. I think you should respect my judgement of my own head and face including the fact that I have seen some of the better doctors in the US when they take Medicare and my insurance. I also have a good local doctor who will give me the antibiotics I request. That's why I can take the penicillin VK at high dose for long periods of time. That still doesn't mean I should.I keep asking my same basic questions, not to be told that I am not seeing what is right in front of me or between my two ears, but because you and Tony have not given me enough reason for me to be convinced it is infection. If the headache does not come back in another 2 weeks I will figure it is treating infection, especially if I can discontinue the Lyrica. We shall see.I like you guys

because you are forthright and honest. But I wish you would respect my opinion as well. You know that whatever list you get on and ask the same question you will get their pet answer. You do realize your pet answer (which may be correct - who knows) is infection.I admit I don't know and still have a headache, well, I did until one week ago. I don't care what the penicillin is fixing. I just hope it keeps on working. a>> Fine, a, but you keep asking the questions, and we keep trying to answer based on our experience with people and situations exactly like yours. You're not going to get me to wildly speculate when there's an avenue right in front of you that should be considered seriously, imo. It doesn't matter how much we put in front of you, or what your body tells you, you keep looking for another way. It's obvious from your responses and your questions that you don't really

pay any attention to what we've tried to share with you regarding infection and inflammation and how to cope. But hey, it's your road to travel. I wish you the best. > > penny > > p.s. I don't have my own personal infectious disease specialist either. But I somehow manage to get the abx I need to keep my nastiest symptoms in check, and to make my constant migraines almost non existent. But what do I know?

[Guest guest]

I understand how you could feel that way, but I've also known a for a very long time, and it's because of that that I'm concerned with her posts more than most. I'm afraid that her musings out there may end up doing a lot more harm than good because people might actually follow in her footsteps and waste as much time as she has. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but she's been warned numerous times over quite a few years that if she wasn't careful she was going to experience exactly what she's experiencing now. Despite those warnings, her current condition comes as a big surprise which completely baffles her! I know that for some reason she's not hearing much of what's being said to her... it's most apparent when she repeats things back, so when I respond to her posts, I'm really doing it to help others. If I didn't respond, I'd seriously worry about people

perceiving her as having the last word on chronic illness, possibly preventing them from getting the kind of help they actually should be trying to get. To a: I'm sorry and I'm not trying to slam you as a person or slam your intentions. I know they're good. Your participation definitely generates some good discussion here but I don't know how to state my concerns any more nicely when it comes to this particular topic. penny hope0073 <hope0073@...> wrote: Hi guys, esp. Tony and Penny. I am getting tired of a "bashing".For whatever reasons, I would guess humility, she does not come acrosson this list as being the smart researcher she really is. I've knownher on lists for many years and she has been one of my gurus. If sheis doing or suggesting something, then I have put faith in heropinions and experiences. She has helped me a lot!!! Nothing is evercut and dried. What works for one may not be the be all, end all foreveryone. And we are all SO different. While I really appreciate thislist, sometimes it just deteriorates to judgment and disrespect. SoFWIW, respectfully, Hope

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a, that's what's so frustrating. You think you're different and that we have no idea what you're going through, when I can tell you that's just not true... that you're not at all unique, and I know many others going through the same things you are, and much worse. They're a lot smarter about this disease because they're not wasting their time thinking that maybe they've got EBV and wondering why they're coincidentally experiencing a reversal of symptoms when taking penicillin. It's like you're determined to stay in the dark with this thing, and it's so unnecessary. I really don't know why you keep asking the questions when you're unwilling to look at the signs or even consider any of the things that others with the same experiences have found helpful. I've told you what feels like a bazillion times that I didn't have any symptoms of sinus or dental

problems either, JUST LIKE YOU, and that my diseased jaw and sinuses were discovered accidentally fairly recently. No doctor in 20 years suggested that I had a sinus or dental infection because there were no typical symptoms. I got on the trail of infection myself because people had experienced something similar before me and I learned from them. Hard core sleuthing and searching for the right docs eventually led me to the diagnosis. I've also told you about my experiences with Penicillin for going on 2 years now. We've even had similar experiences with Cipro prior to that. Not to mention head pressure. And you continue to believe that I don't have any clue what you're going through. This, combined with your belief that a ceratin protocol that pushes the same 3 abx on everybody, shows me that you have no understanding of bacterial infection. Which is okay (as long as you don't advise others),

but what's harder to take is that you seem to have no interest in understanding chronic bacterial infection and have absorbed none of other people's hard earned lessons which are there to help you. Just as you completely blew me off when I tried my best to protect you from a certain health guru, you've ignored me and others about this as well. And look at the results. penny pjeanneus <pj7@...> wrote: Hello Hope,Thanks

so much for your encouragement. The past seven days is the first time in 17 months that I have been able to think. And now that I am thinking I realize that I have had to see a lot of doctors and talk with a lot of experts in order to sort out my situation.One thing that stands out is this, "Listen to the patient." Penny and Tony DO NOT KNOW what my head feels like or how it is different from 12 years ago or even five years ago. They have no idea about my symptoms of sinus or tooth infection - NONE.I am sure I had an infection, perhaps it was never effectively treated. I have no idea what the infection was/is. I doubt it was borrelia or mycoplasma. It may have involved EBV. I don't know if the penicillin VK is working because it is killing germs or reducing glutamate. NO ONE KNOWS THAT, CERTAINLY NOT TONY OR PENNY.I hope it is apparent that my brain is currently working as opposed to being

brain dead and desperate the past months.AGain, thanks for your encouragement. HOPE you are doing well.a>> Hi guys, esp. Tony and Penny. I am getting tired of a "bashing".> For whatever reasons, I would guess humility, she does not come across> on this list as being the smart researcher she really is. I've known> her on lists for many years and she has been one of my gurus. If she> is doing or suggesting something, then I have put faith in her> opinions and experiences. She has helped me a lot!!! Nothing is ever> cut and dried. What works for one may not be the be all, end all for> everyone. And we are all SO different. While I really appreciate this> list, sometimes it just deteriorates to judgment and disrespect. So> FWIW, respectfully, Hope>