Re: transdermal Mg..... re a positive controlled trial of IM Mag

[Guest guest]

On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 07:55:11PM -0000, wrote:

>Then, late that night, I took a bath with about a kg of epsom salt in

>it (roughly). My bath was probably hotter (at first) than the ones the

>people in the paper used. It was also about 3 hours long, whereas

>theirs was 12 minutes. So I probably absorbed a lot more than the

>people who took the baths in the paper.

Sounds like you got a heavy dose of heat, too. That can have big effects

on the immune system and on infections; indeed, I'd be inclined to blame

(or credit) it rather than the magnesium.

--

Norman Yarvin http://yarchive.net

[Guest guest]

Hmmm, I looked up Shealy. At first I thought maybe you were being a bit hard on the guy. Seems he may have made some interesting inroads into pain. But then I got to his "5 Sacred Rings" and that was that. I want my docs to be docs, not spiritual guides. The last place I'd look for spiritual based healing is from someone who's been through medical school. :-) penny <usenethod@...> wrote: ABSTRACT: I tried transdermal Mg, probably too much, had positiveinitial effects, and messed up my gut again.Ummm NVLLIVS IN VERBA, amigos.........My first source on transdermal absorbtion of Mg was Norman Shealy, viaEby. Well, look up Shealy on the web - frankly I find him to be ultracheesey.But guess what, here is a (free) respectable-looking unpublished paperon transdermal Mg, from Birgmingham UK - it is on the website of some"Epsom Salt Council" but I'm not sure if they were involved inproducing it:http://www.epsomsaltcouncil.org/articles/Report_on_Absorption_of_magnesium_sulfate.pdfAnyway, that paper verifies absorbtion thru the skin, including in abath with a lot of Mg salts dissolved in.So I got some epsom salts (which is sorta-nearly-pure

Mg sulfate).First I was fooling around, repeatedly, with dissolving it into somelotion and applying it to the skin. Probably did way too much. I don'tknow for sure just how safe this is. I started to get some moderateeffects. (I generally seem not to experience placebo effects.)Then, late that night, I took a bath with about a kg of epsom salt init (roughly). My bath was probably hotter (at first) than the ones thepeople in the paper used. It was also about 3 hours long, whereastheirs was 12 minutes. So I probably absorbed a lot more than thepeople who took the baths in the paper.Then I started to feel really good.Then my sleep was really weird and wired-ish, with some of the bizarresemi-awake states I used to experience earlier in my illness. Butwhatever.Then when I woke up I resoaked in the bath again. Pretty soon I feltGREAT for 6 hours or so. Then I crashed like a meteor, and felt

likeabsolute slime for maybe 18 hours. It would seem that I probably somehow triggered a manic storm thatrapidly depleted/downregulated some neurotransmitter, receptor,transducer (or whatever) involved in feelings of energy and well-being.Then, my gut went bad for the next several days. (Anti-diarrhea andanti-gas meds were helpful, in case this ever happens to someone).Whoops, I thought you weren't supposed to mess up your gut if you tookit parenterally. Well, I believe that you can. I probably just tooktoo much. I never had any bad enteric effects from getting Meyer'sCocktail IVs in the old days, but they seem not to contain all thatmuch Mg. One site gives the Mg content as:Magnesium.........1-4 cc either 20% chloride or 50% sulfate I believe that is a wt/vol percentage which would mean 0.5 to 2 g ofMg sulfate - which is itself only partly Mg (the %Mg in MgSO4 woulddepend on whether

you have anhydrous MgSO4 or instead have theheptahydrate form which epsom salts comprise).So, it may be that got the bad gut from just taking entirely too much.Obviously, the short euphoria followed by the long crash is notsomething that is useful. However, I don't think that is necessarilythe only effect - I think I may also be experiencing a second, moresustained positive effect which is much more mild. In the future Iwill of course be titrating up from much lower doses.

[Guest guest]

Norman, can you explain more about the heat's affects on the immune system? I've always avoided baths mainly because I only like them if the water is really hot. But that makes me feel terribly weak, dizzy and depleted of energy. I wonder if people who seem to respond badly to sun, are actually, or in part, responding to the heat rather than the sun or the vitamin D hormone? , I could never stay in a bath for 3 hours. Not sure how you managed that. But a lot of people report good effects from Epsom Salt baths. Have you considered moderation in your self experiments? :-) penny Norman Yarvin <norman.yarvin@...> wrote: On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 07:55:11PM -0000, wrote:>Then, late that night, I took a bath with about a kg of epsom salt in>it (roughly). My bath was probably hotter (at first) than the ones the>people in the paper used. It was also about 3 hours long, whereas>theirs was 12 minutes. So I probably absorbed a lot more than the>people who took the baths in the paper.Sounds like you got a heavy dose of heat, too. That can have big effectson the immune system and on infections; indeed, I'd be inclined to blame(or credit) it rather than the magnesium.-- Norman Yarvin http://yarchive.net

[Guest guest]

Interesting thing about absorption thru the skin...

The skin is there to PROTECT the body from absorbing all sorts of

substances.. it's a barrier and a damn good one.

That's why substances like DMSO, and Jojobo oil have been

investigated as a carrier for other things (like certain drugs) thru

the skin. Some hormones can also absorb thru the skin..

but it's a fact that certain molecular criteria(structure) have to be

met for something to absorb thru the skin....regardless of skin temp.

It's usually the molecular size and chemical type that gets through

barrier of the skin..

References please!

Barb

>

> >Then, late that night, I took a bath with about a kg of epsom salt

in

> >it (roughly). My bath was probably hotter (at first) than the ones

the

> >people in the paper used. It was also about 3 hours long, whereas

> >theirs was 12 minutes. So I probably absorbed a lot more than the

> >people who took the baths in the paper.

>

> Sounds like you got a heavy dose of heat, too. That can have big

effects

> on the immune system and on infections; indeed, I'd be inclined to

blame

> (or credit) it rather than the magnesium.

>

>

> --

> Norman Yarvin

http://yarchive.net

>

[Guest guest]

.. meant to add (but hit send too fast)

By the term " transdermal " do you mean that it's FORMULATED to absorb

thru the skin? If so, then it meets the criteria in my other post..

but still would like to see references for the product.

Barb

> >

> > >Then, late that night, I took a bath with about a kg of epsom

salt

> in

> > >it (roughly). My bath was probably hotter (at first) than the

ones

> the

> > >people in the paper used. It was also about 3 hours long, whereas

> > >theirs was 12 minutes. So I probably absorbed a lot more than the

> > >people who took the baths in the paper.

> >

> > Sounds like you got a heavy dose of heat, too. That can have big

> effects

> > on the immune system and on infections; indeed, I'd be inclined

to

> blame

> > (or credit) it rather than the magnesium.

> >

> >

> > --

> > Norman Yarvin

> http://yarchive.net

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I don't know too much about the details, but broadly speaking, heat is

pro-inflammatory and cold is anti-inflammatory -- and inflammation

involves an activation of the immune system. This is why people ice

sprains: the immune system otherwise over-responds, since it figures that

any injury involves a change of infection -- which in sprains it doesn't,

since the skin isn't broken. The icing reduces the amount of excess

inflammation, with its pain, swelling, and incapacity. Later on, though,

in the course of treatment of sprains, heat is sometimes used, because a

moderate amount of inflammation helps with healing.

Also, heat has direct effects on microbes, which is part of why the body

runs fevers. But those effects I know even less about.

On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 02:28:15PM -0700, Penny Houle wrote:

>Norman, can you explain more about the heat's affects on the immune system?

>

> I've always avoided baths mainly because I only like them if the water

> is really hot. But that makes me feel terribly weak, dizzy and depleted

> of energy.

>

> I wonder if people who seem to respond badly to sun, are actually, or

> in part, responding to the heat rather than the sun or the vitamin D

> hormone?

>

> , I could never stay in a bath for 3 hours. Not sure how you

> managed that. But a lot of people report good effects from Epsom Salt

> baths. Have you considered moderation in your self experiments? :-)

>

> penny

>

>

>Norman Yarvin <norman.yarvin@...> wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 07:55:11PM -0000, wrote:

>

>>Then, late that night, I took a bath with about a kg of epsom salt in

>>it (roughly). My bath was probably hotter (at first) than the ones the

>>people in the paper used. It was also about 3 hours long, whereas

>>theirs was 12 minutes. So I probably absorbed a lot more than the

>>people who took the baths in the paper.

>

>Sounds like you got a heavy dose of heat, too. That can have big effects

>on the immune system and on infections; indeed, I'd be inclined to blame

>(or credit) it rather than the magnesium.

>

>--

>Norman Yarvin http://yarchive.net

[Guest guest]

This baby ain't electrically heated or nothin.... so it was only hot

for 30 minutes or so. Even to begin with, it wasn't at sweat-dripping

heat... I only got it " pretty hot " so it wouldn't go cold too fast.

Also, I've taken hot baths pretty frequently over my whole illness

history, often hotter than this one. And I've never really had much of

an effect (though there's nothing like it zap muscle pain, and it's

mildly relaxing).

> Sounds like you got a heavy dose of heat, too. That can have big

effects

> on the immune system and on infections; indeed, I'd be inclined to blame

> (or credit) it rather than the magnesium.

[Guest guest]

> , I could never stay in a bath for 3 hours. Not sure how you

managed that. But a lot of people report good effects from Epsom Salt

baths.

Well, when it gets really chilly I drain a little water and add some

new hot water in, to get it back up to lukewarm.

> Have you considered moderation in your self experiments? :-)

No way, I like my data crisp! I was just trying to get clear results...

I didn't think these damn protracted side effects were going to happen

again. I have really had it! Definitely going to handle the stuff with

care in future.

I'm unsure what happened. Presumably(?) I got my blood level up so

high that the blood made a net release of Mg into the intestinal

lumen, where it remained. It's hard to see how else it would get into

the GI lumen. I don't really recommend being a dumb ass like yours

truly... I hope that high blood level was safe to have; guess I'll

find out.

[Guest guest]

Usually it's hydrophobic molecules that can get through the skin best,

I guess (some steroid hormones can be applied as creams).

I don't think they have to be all that terribly hydrophobic though, to

get through at least partially.

Now, big ions, like Mg++, pretty much do not get through cell

membranes at all. I'm not totally certain. H+ (a tiny ion) does " leak "

a little bit, but I don't think Mg++ does. That leaves paracellular

diffusion to be addressed (ie moving around the cells rather than

through them) - see below.

In this case there may be a specific transporter. It might be there to

resorb Mg from sweat - total guess.

> References please!

If you mean refs for Mg passing the skin... just check the unpublished

paper from Birmingham UK in my first post from today.

So here's the thing about paracellular diffusion - tight junctions

(kind of a protein zipper) strongly limit it in the GI. But they were

not thought important/necessary in the skin, I guess - this paper

suggests they may actually be important there.

" In single-layer epithelia (e.g. in the small intestine),

intercellular junctions represent the major barrier restricting

paracellular permeability, i.e., the diffusion of water and solutes

across intercellular spaces (Madara, 1998). In comparison, in

multilayer epithelia (e.g. in the epidermis), junctions are somewhat

less organized, and their role in barrier function has not been

clearly defined. Among stratified epithelia of the skin, keratinocytes

in the stratum corneum assemble an insoluble complex of cross-linked

proteins and lipids, i.e., the cornified cell envelope (CCE),*

building up an efficient barrier against physical trauma and fluid

dispersion (Roop, 1995). Until now, the prevailing view has been that

stratified epithelium, such as the epidermis, lacked continuous and

functional tight junctions. A paper in this issue draws our attention

to a possible role of keratinocyte tight junctions (TJs) in the

permeability barrier of the skin (Furuse et al., 2002). "

[Guest guest]

When I got tired of taking dozens of supplements a day, I tried mixing minerals with DMSO and applied that to my skin. I don't know if it worked or not. I was a little worried about the whole thing, the purity of the DMSO etc. But is there any chance that would be something that might help? penny <usenethod@...> wrote: Usually it's hydrophobic molecules that can get through the skin best,I guess (some steroid hormones can be applied as creams).I don't think they

have to be all that terribly hydrophobic though, toget through at least partially. Now, big ions, like Mg++, pretty much do not get through cellmembranes at all. I'm not totally certain. H+ (a tiny ion) does "leak"a little bit, but I don't think Mg++ does. That leaves paracellulardiffusion to be addressed (ie moving around the cells rather thanthrough them) - see below.In this case there may be a specific transporter. It might be there toresorb Mg from sweat - total guess. > References please!If you mean refs for Mg passing the skin... just check the unpublishedpaper from Birmingham UK in my first post from today.So here's the thing about paracellular diffusion - tight junctions(kind of a protein zipper) strongly limit it in the GI. But they werenot thought important/necessary in the skin, I guess - this papersuggests they may actually be important there."In single-layer epithelia

(e.g. in the small intestine),intercellular junctions represent the major barrier restrictingparacellular permeability, i.e., the diffusion of water and solutesacross intercellular spaces (Madara, 1998). In comparison, inmultilayer epithelia (e.g. in the epidermis), junctions are somewhatless organized, and their role in barrier function has not beenclearly defined. Among stratified epithelia of the skin, keratinocytesin the stratum corneum assemble an insoluble complex of cross-linkedproteins and lipids, i.e., the cornified cell envelope (CCE),*building up an efficient barrier against physical trauma and fluiddispersion (Roop, 1995). Until now, the prevailing view has been thatstratified epithelium, such as the epidermis, lacked continuous andfunctional tight junctions. A paper in this issue draws our attentionto a possible role of keratinocyte tight junctions (TJs) in thepermeability barrier of the skin (Furuse et

al., 2002)."

[Guest guest]

I'd always read that any excess mg would pass right through you. That's what causes the diarrhea in the first place. But then that makes me wonder about mg's ability to antagonize calcium if the excess just passes through with no effect. Do you have any concerns about your calcium levels if you feel you really o.d.'d on the mg? Magnesium can stop a heart attack by relaxing the heart muscle. I assume that applies to the muscles in the veins as well. I can see how that would have an overall relaxation effect on you in general. But then when all the muscles go back to their normally tense state...? Who knows but couldn't that be like experiencing withdrawal from pain meds? Magnesium's very interesting stuff. Studies show it can help with migraines, asthma, all kinds of things. It also binds with lots of stuff. Might be difficult to ever know

exactly what happened. penny <usenethod@...> wrote: > , I could never stay in a bath for 3 hours. Not sure how youmanaged that. But a lot of people report good effects from Epsom Saltbaths. Well, when it gets really chilly I drain a little water and add somenew hot water in, to get it back up to lukewarm.> Have you considered moderation in your self experiments? :-) No way, I like my data crisp! I was just trying to get clear

results...I didn't think these damn protracted side effects were going to happenagain. I have really had it! Definitely going to handle the stuff withcare in future.I'm unsure what happened. Presumably(?) I got my blood level up sohigh that the blood made a net release of Mg into the intestinallumen, where it remained. It's hard to see how else it would get intothe GI lumen. I don't really recommend being a dumb ass like yourstruly... I hope that high blood level was safe to have; guess I'llfind out.

[Guest guest]

Oh, okay. Interesting that magnesium presumably relaxes the vessle walls, as does heat. Making them both vasodilators, right? Vasodilation increases blood flow. That's why ice, a vasoconstrictor, is used on injuries, to slow the flow of blood to the area to reduce inflammation, swelling etc., then later, heat is applied to increase the flow of blood so that it can help repair the injury. Vasoconstrictor meds and ice are crucial in dealing with my migraines and the vessle spasms causing them. It's also a possible problem though, because I need increased blood flow in my head to get the antibiotics to the organisms. Blood flow is already limited enough in the area where my bugs thrive. It's a nasty catch 22. But I know I don't like the effects vasodilators have on me, and perhaps that's also why I don't like hot baths? (not to mention, they're extremely boring. :-) pennyNorman Yarvin <norman.yarvin@...> wrote: I don't know too much about the details, but broadly speaking, heat ispro-inflammatory and cold is anti-inflammatory -- and inflammationinvolves an activation of the immune system. This is why people icesprains: the immune system otherwise over-responds, since it figures thatany injury involves a change of infection -- which in sprains it doesn't,since the skin isn't broken. The icing reduces the amount of excessinflammation, with its

pain, swelling, and incapacity. Later on, though,in the course of treatment of sprains, heat is sometimes used, because amoderate amount of inflammation helps with healing.Also, heat has direct effects on microbes, which is part of why the bodyruns fevers. But those effects I know even less about.On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 02:28:15PM -0700, Penny Houle wrote:>Norman, can you explain more about the heat's affects on the immune system?> > I've always avoided baths mainly because I only like them if the water> is really hot. But that makes me feel terribly weak, dizzy and depleted> of energy.> > I wonder if people who seem to respond badly to sun, are actually, or> in part, responding to the heat rather than the sun or the vitamin D> hormone?> > , I could never stay in a bath for 3 hours. Not sure how you> managed that. But a lot of people report good effects from

Epsom Salt> baths. Have you considered moderation in your self experiments? :-)>> penny> > >Norman Yarvin <norman.yarvinsnet (DOT) net> wrote:> On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 07:55:11PM -0000, wrote:>>>Then, late that night, I took a bath with about a kg of epsom salt in>>it (roughly). My bath was probably hotter (at first) than the ones the>>people in the paper used. It was also about 3 hours long, whereas>>theirs was 12 minutes. So I probably absorbed a lot more than the>>people who took the baths in the paper.>>Sounds like you got a heavy dose of heat, too. That can have big effects>on the immune system and on infections; indeed, I'd be inclined to blame>(or credit) it rather than the magnesium.>>-- >Norman Yarvin http://yarchive.net

[Guest guest]

On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 11:58:59PM -0000, wrote:

>I'm unsure what happened. Presumably(?) I got my blood level up so

>high that the blood made a net release of Mg into the intestinal

>lumen, where it remained. It's hard to see how else it would get into

>the GI lumen. I don't really recommend being a dumb ass like yours

>truly... I hope that high blood level was safe to have; guess I'll

>find out.

Whatever happened with your gut wasn't the usual thing that people get

from taking too much magnesium. That's a purely osmotic effect, and is

fairly mild (well, maybe unless one takes colossal quantities). It'd be

quite hard for enough magnesium to leak into the gut to produce it; and

it certainly wouldn't last days. I don't know what the explanation might

be, but it needn't involve magnesium getting into the gut.

--

Norman Yarvin http://yarchive.net

[Guest guest]

> Whatever happened with your gut wasn't the usual thing that people

get from taking too much magnesium. That's a purely osmotic effect,

and is fairly mild (well, maybe unless one takes colossal quantities).

Maybe you're right. I did see it said on some website that the osmotic

effects from Mg should be brief. Even stranger, the dose I took on the

first go-round (~2.4 g magnesium as MgO) was not that huge - according

to the same or another website. So that dose may not have been colossal.

> It'd be quite hard for enough magnesium to leak into the gut to

produce it; and it certainly wouldn't last days. I don't know what

the explanation might be, but it needn't involve magnesium getting

into the gut.

My Birmingham document says blood levels are " tightly controlled " - it

also reports its results, I now notice, in ppm/mL, which seems to be a

nonsensical unit.

I was picturing Mg possibly coming from the blood/humor into the gut

paracellularly, or " backwards " through a passive transporter, but

those scenarios may not be plausible if the blood concentration

doesn't vary by very much.

[Guest guest]

> Maybe you're right. I did see it said on some website that the

osmotic effects from Mg should be brief. Even stranger, the dose I

took on the first go-round (~2.4 g magnesium as MgO) was not that huge

- according to the same or another website. So that dose may not have

been colossal.

One speculation I considered is that excess fluid in the GI might have

caused a dysbiosis. I seem to recall that there are some bacterial

taxa in the large gut that are not supposed to be in the small gut.

Perhaps they might ascend the gut under abnormal conditions.

Presumably my consumption of kilograms of antibiotics over the last 5

years would, if anything, promote abnormalities of floral ecology.

[Guest guest]

> One speculation I considered is that excess fluid in the GI might

have caused a dysbiosis.

Which, I forgot to add, might normalize over 10-15 days because of the

activities of the natives of the small gut. Many of them elaborate

colicins and such - or may just be better competitors for biomass.

[Guest guest]

On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 11:47:10PM -0000, wrote:

>

>> Whatever happened with your gut wasn't the usual thing that people

>>get from taking too much magnesium. That's a purely osmotic effect,

>>and is fairly mild (well, maybe unless one takes colossal quantities).

>

>Maybe you're right. I did see it said on some website that the osmotic

>effects from Mg should be brief. Even stranger, the dose I took on the

>first go-round (~2.4 g magnesium as MgO) was not that huge - according

>to the same or another website. So that dose may not have been colossal.

That's a lot (RDA is 400 mg), and should be enough to get the osmotic

laxative effect (which Steve says " usually takes more than 1 gram

of Mg at a time, and generally more like 5 to reliably do the job " ).

Those are doses that people with constipation use for the laxative

effect, so their effect can't be too bad. By colossal I meant a lot more

than that, as in someone trying to commit suicide via Epsom salts or

something.

In any case, you don't need experimental results to show that the osmotic

effect is brief; that follows from first principles. The osmosis pulls

in water, the watery stuff is quickly moved down the intestine and out,

and that's the end of the episode. Multiple days of intestinal trouble

can't be explained this way -- the laxative effect could be the trigger,

but no more.

>My Birmingham document says blood levels are " tightly controlled " - it

>also reports its results, I now notice, in ppm/mL, which seems to be a

>nonsensical unit.

Uh oh. So much for the credibility of that document.

--

Norman Yarvin http://yarchive.net

[Guest guest]

> In any case, you don't need experimental results to show that the

osmotic effect is brief; that follows from first principles. The

osmosis pulls in water, the watery stuff is quickly moved down the

intestine and out, and that's the end of the episode. Multiple days

of intestinal trouble can't be explained this way -- the laxative

effect could be the trigger, but no more.

A priori, there could be a reservoir somewhere (such as within cells)

that might keep dumping Mg into the gut gradually. But I admit that's

probably not a reality here. It sounds like the kidneys get rid of

excess Mg in pretty short order?

Another way for things to get dumped into the gut (besides

paracellular diffusion or " backwards " passive transport) might be the

bile... but I don't see why ions would get concentrated into the bile.

I'm not much of a hand when it comes to this macro-physiology. (I

don't have a single clue how the kidneys work, for example.)

Maybe whatever makes Nelly intolerant of even low doses is also what I

have.

I found a nice article that gives a great layout of where Mg is and

how it moves around:

http://www.emedicine.com/ped/topic1080.htm

" Elimination is predominantly renal; the threshold for urinary

excretion nears the reference range of serum concentration. Thus, when

serum levels are greater than 2.5 mEq/L, magnesium excretion

dramatically increases. "

So since Mg is divalent, that's 1.75 mM, which at 24.3 Da, makes for

0.042 g /L. Not terribly much.

" Thus, hypermagnesemia is defined as a serum concentration greater

than 2.5 mEq/L. (The reference range of serum magnesium levels is

1.8-2.5 mEq/L.) Most cases of hypermagnesemia have been noted in

patients with severe renal failure in whom magnesium intake has been

excessive. This may result from iatrogenic administration of

medications that contain magnesium. Fatal hypermagnesemia has resulted

from the administration of enemas containing magnesium to patients

with renal failure. In fact, hypermagnesemia is rarely observed in

individuals with a glomerular filtration rate (GFR) that is within

reference range. "

" Hypermagnesemia results in loss of deep-tendon reflexes at levels of

4-6 mEq/L. At magnesium levels greater than 5 mEq/L, CNS depression,

which may range from drowsiness to coma, begins. While concentrations

of magnesium greater than 10 mEq/L lead to respiratory depression in

adults, this may occur at much lower levels in the newborn. "

So it doesn't sound like I could have had any hpermagnesemia. I don't

have any known kidney problems.

[Guest guest]

Like everything else in life- it's the dose.

And at high enough doses (beyond the amount that can be absorbed at

one time) it's called " the bowel intolerance level " .. and you get

diarreah- it can happen with vit C too.

Magnesium is involed with almost every chemicla reaction in the body.

That's why it's so important.

The amount given when you have a heart attach- is beyond the

suppliment level- and doesn't go thru the gut. It acts a a arterial

and venous dilator.. fo that's the therapeutic use in THAT instance..

It's an important element.

Barb

>

> > , I could never stay in a bath for 3 hours. Not sure how you

> managed that. But a lot of people report good effects from Epsom

Salt

> baths.

>

> Well, when it gets really chilly I drain a little water and add some

> new hot water in, to get it back up to lukewarm.

>

> > Have you considered moderation in your self experiments? :-)

>

> No way, I like my data crisp! I was just trying to get clear

results...

>

> I didn't think these damn protracted side effects were going to

happen

> again. I have really had it! Definitely going to handle the stuff

with

> care in future.

>

> I'm unsure what happened. Presumably(?) I got my blood level up so

> high that the blood made a net release of Mg into the intestinal

> lumen, where it remained. It's hard to see how else it would get

into

> the GI lumen. I don't really recommend being a dumb ass like yours

> truly... I hope that high blood level was safe to have; guess I'll

> find out.

>

[Guest guest]

On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 09:18:05PM -0000, wrote:

>> In any case, you don't need experimental results to show that the

>>osmotic effect is brief; that follows from first principles. The

>>osmosis pulls in water, the watery stuff is quickly moved down the

>>intestine and out, and that's the end of the episode. Multiple days

>>of intestinal trouble can't be explained this way -- the laxative

>>effect could be the trigger, but no more.

>

>A priori, there could be a reservoir somewhere (such as within cells)

>that might keep dumping Mg into the gut gradually. But I admit that's

>probably not a reality here. It sounds like the kidneys get rid of

>excess Mg in pretty short order?

The reason for the osmotic laxative effect is that much of the magnesium

is not absorbed. The article you linked to says that absorption is less

than 40%, so whatever reservoir one might hypothesize would have to

somehow stretch out the 40% so that it did as much as the 60%, and for a

much longer time, too. (And, as you point out, would have to do so in

spite of the kidneys trying to excrete the excess magnesium.)

>Maybe whatever makes Nelly intolerant of even low doses is also what I

>have.

That wouldn't be good. The body uses magnesium for all sorts of stuff.

It's certainly not something you should try doing without.

--

Norman Yarvin http://yarchive.net

[Guest guest]

AHhhhhhh Yeaha.. that's colossal in my book if it was oral..-

especially when only about 400 MILLIGRAMS can be absorbed at one time..

Barb

>

>

> > Maybe you're right. I did see it said on some website that the

> osmotic effects from Mg should be brief. Even stranger, the dose I

> took on the first go-round (~2.4 g magnesium as MgO) was not that huge

> - according to the same or another website. So that dose may not have

> been colossal.

>