Re: Re: olmesartan - friend or foe

April 5, 2009

i took the full inflammatory blockade dose of 40mg every 8 hrs for three

months, with wonderful almost magical results ...After 3 months i found

that i could reduce the dose to the recommended max BP dose of 40mg per

day with no relapse ..That situation is no surprise as angiotensin

begets angiotensin its a runaway effect ..blocking the receptors breaks

that cycle and as long as the infections are controlled status quo is

restored ..It doesn’t or i'de better say didn’t with me herald a

upgraded response from my immune system one that i detect anyway ..Other

factors as per my site could explain that ...I've no idea why you needed

to take ARB's for so long ..I take 40mg of Olmesartan per day as a

maintenance dose ..i have perfect readings for my BP

http://www.yeast-candida-infections-uk.co.uk/

penny wrote:

>

> Yes, I understand that my body's immune system may have been reacting

> more normally and that's why I got the flu. But it could also be

> because the immune system is TOO suppressed, as in the case of

> Steroids. And your explanation doesn't account for the fact that after

> being on the protocol for a long time, the inflammatory benefits

> decreased and my symptoms not only increased but new ones appeared.

>

> I'm curious, how long have you been on the protocol again?

>

> I'm not against olmesartan as long as it is discussed as a highly

> experimental drug if taken for inflation. It does worry me when I see

> it so highly endorsed (as you did) when I know the entire history of

> the protocol that brought olmesartan to the spotlight, as well as my

> own negative experience and that of others. Remember, 2 very close

> friends took it and I was privvy to a whole lot of other people

> suffering on it. I'm not just talking out my you-know-what. I'm

> speaking from experience. Olmesartan can be dangerous if taken for any

> purpose other than lowering blood pressure.

>

> From my experiene, when there are /this/ many red flags and /this/

> many people report negative effects, not just a few isolated cases

> here or there, there's good reason to be wary.

>

> > >

> > > , for some reason your emails keep coming through as possible

> spam

> > > and I have to approve them. Is there anything you can do on your end

> > > to fix that?

> > > , all I can do is share my own experience with olmesartan

> > > (benicar). Maybe you forget that I was one of the earliest people

> > > interested in this drug (other than the sarcoidosis folks). I know

> all

> > > about how it's supposed to work. I was very excited about it too,

> > > because it seemed to relieve my inflammatory symptoms. I took it for

> > > well over a year, maybe closer to 2, I can't recall without

> looking at

> > > my records. Unfortunately, in the process, I screwed up my thigh

> > > muscles and weakened my ability to fight viruses and flus.

> > > That had nothing to do with finding bugs /hidden/ behind inflammation

> > > and their resulting die off. Benicar didn't make my infection smaller

> > > either. I believe my infection got bigger. And that was with full

> > > strength antibiotics and anti-fungals.

> > > I also don't believe that olmesarten " potentiates " antibiotics. I

> > > started with the protocol as designed with low dose abx. The claim

> > > that the endless suffering that people experience on the protocol is

> > > due to bacterial die-off (herxing) and nothing else, is just

> > > rediculous. Die off should be short lived. Everyone's different, but

> > > most people with big infections should probably not be toying with

> > > tiny amounts of antibiotics. It just strengthens the bugs.

> > > I've been saying all along that I'm looking forward to more studies

> > > being done on Olmesartan. It seems to have a tremendous amount of

> > > potential. But I know far too many people who've had bad results with

> > > the experimental protocol, even deadly results, to go around

> promoting

> > > it as some kind of a wonder drug for people with chronic infection or

> > > so called " auto-immune " diseases. I really, /really /think it's

> > > irresponsible and I regret ever having publicized the marshall

> > > protocol. It should have stayed in the Sarcoidosis family where

> people

> > > really do have excess vitamin D issues and their only treatment

> option

> > > is steroids. Partly. my publicising the protocol was naivete on my

> > > part. I had no idea that people who had negative experiences or other

> > > ideas would be banned from posting their experiences. Even taken

> to court.

> > > I really hope you read the previous posts about the doc who's facing

> > > disciplinary action based on 12 patients reporting her for negligence

> > > in regards to prescribing the Marshall Protocol. Even more

> > > importantly, I hope you read the Mark London analysis of the

> protocol.

> > > In my experience, he's always been very thorough and his analyses are

> > > very well reasoned and supported with science.

> > > There are way too many leaps in reasoning to promote the protocol or

> > > omesartan alone as a sure tool for treating chronic infection. If

> > > anything, it's something that people should approach very cautiously,

> > > and if they decide to experiment with it, they should know they are

> > > doing it with a great deal of risk because there's nothing out there

> > > yet that indicates it's a good long term anti-inflammatory or

> > > anti-microbial.

> > > penny

> > >

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > >

> > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> > > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.40/2039 - Release Date:

> 04/03/09 06:19:00

> > >

> >

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.40/2039 - Release Date: 04/03/09

06:19:00

>

April 6, 2009

I understand , why you're so excited. I had that same "magical effect" when I first took it. (It flattened me like an airless balloon, taking such high doses, but once I got past that, the relief was amazing). In fact the very first day I took it, it relieved head pressure that I wasn't even aware I had until it disappeared! I kept saying "my head feels so much lighter!" I was literally giddy with so much relief of pain and head pressure. Unfortunately, I was so excited that I also created the mp group along with our friend , the vet, who originally told me about the protocol. Pretty quickly we realized that not everybody was responding the same positive way. Some saw no difference at all, others got extremely sick, really fast. That's when I started getting alarmed because I

was constantly being told to censor people who had negative effects, and I just couldn't do that in good conscience. The rest is legal history as you know.

The bummer was that not only did the protocol (or benicar alone) NOT deliver the promised results for everyone across the board, it even stopped delivering results for me, a person who'd had such a great start out the gate with it.

Like you, I also reduced the dosage and I maintained symptom relief for a while, but gradually I started noticing other things, like the weakened thigh muscles, and the return of headaches, and catching colds, and just more weakness in general. I also felt like it was messing with my lungs somehow. People tried to post about studies that warned against things like the thigh/muscle damage, etc, but very little negative commentary on the protocol ever seemed to make it into the light of day. (No pun intended) For me, when the new symptoms started outweighing the diminishing relief of old symptoms, I decided I'd had enough. I wouldn't take benicar now, even if I had high blood pressure. You know how sometimes you just instinctually know something is not good for you and you have an aversion to it. That's how I feel about Benicar now.

Like I said, I do understand your excitement, but you really haven't been taking it for all that long. The original promise was that 2 years on the protocol would have you cured (of pretty much anything that ailed you). Hasn't it ever seemed a bit odd to you that the people making those promises are STILL on the protocol and still aren't cured? A cure means returning to your former state of health and not needing any maintenance drugs for an extended period of time. Why are the earliest adopters of the mp still taking the drugs or taking Benicar alone? Many of those people are way, WAY past 2 years. Last I heard, TM himself was still on Benicar. I haven't checked in a while but he was way over the 2 year limit when I left that scene, and that's been quite a few years now.

I'm just really suggesting you temper your excitement, and wait a while before making such confident assertions. Take it from me, you can really regret it later. At the very least, please tell people on your website that it does not work for everyone, that the effects may not be long lived, and there's a possibility of negative side effects, which could become long lasting for some. There have even been a couple of deaths reported (but of course getting hard information on that is difficult, because people are so afraid to speak openly).

Based on what I witnessed personally and what I've heard after my involvement, I believe the deaths to be true.

All I know for sure is, it's not a nice little drug to mess with. .

penny

From: dumbaussie2000 <dumbaussie2000@...>Subject: [infections] Re: olmesartan - friend or foeinfections Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009, 5:17 PM

You keep quoting medical literature. Unfortunately we've all found that medical literature more often than not is a croc of crap..If they knew the exact science of inflammation, like they claim, no one would have any problems..This angiotensin renin bs doesn't even come close.You have a whole holistic and many other industries all touching and making an impact on inflammation in many different ways.I observe time and time again the crippling effects of this group of drugs and have seen dramatic improvemnt in people on there discontinuation. .I am talking crippling normal folk and leaving them invalids, until they discontinue the drug and often return to normal.You obviosuly don't look around and bury your head in the literature..I have an aunty that was full of life and energy and watched this drug give her adult onset asthma, crippling arthritis, and zap 70 % of her energy and get up and go- what would you classify that

as..Inflammation is more than is claimed, it's also an electrical energy even capable of giving your heart many irregularities that again no one can explain... as is obvious, your heart relies on electrical signalling to perform at it's peak, hence improvement in older patients with fatigue with the addition of a pacemaker.. wake up and look around, you may have gotten inflammtion relief with benicar, but more often than not the drug builds resistance to what causes the inflammation in many and it becaomes useless, hence the need for the pharmaceutical companies to keep rolling out several newer and newer drugs in this category. > > > >> > > >

, for some reason your emails keep coming through as possible > > spam> > > > and I have to approve them. Is there anything you can do on your end> > > > to fix that?> > > > , all I can do is share my own experience with olmesartan> > > > (benicar). Maybe you forget that I was one of the earliest people> > > > interested in this drug (other than the sarcoidosis folks). I know > > all> > > > about how it's supposed to work. I was very excited about it too,> > > > because it seemed to relieve my inflammatory symptoms. I took it for> > > > well over a year, maybe closer to 2, I can't recall without > > looking at> > > > my records. Unfortunately, in the process, I screwed up my thigh> > > > muscles and weakened my ability to fight viruses and flus.> >

> > That had nothing to do with finding bugs /hidden/ behind inflammation> > > > and their resulting die off. Benicar didn't make my infection smaller> > > > either. I believe my infection got bigger. And that was with full> > > > strength antibiotics and anti-fungals.> > > > I also don't believe that olmesarten "potentiates" antibiotics. I> > > > started with the protocol as designed with low dose abx. The claim> > > > that the endless suffering that people experience on the protocol is> > > > due to bacterial die-off (herxing) and nothing else, is just> > > > rediculous. Die off should be short lived. Everyone's different, but> > > > most people with big infections should probably not be toying with> > > > tiny amounts of antibiotics. It just strengthens the bugs.> > > >

I've been saying all along that I'm looking forward to more studies> > > > being done on Olmesartan. It seems to have a tremendous amount of> > > > potential. But I know far too many people who've had bad results with> > > > the experimental protocol, even deadly results, to go around > > promoting> > > > it as some kind of a wonder drug for people with chronic infection or> > > > so called "auto-immune" diseases. I really, /really /think it's> > > > irresponsible and I regret ever having publicized the marshall> > > > protocol. It should have stayed in the Sarcoidosis family where > > people> > > > really do have excess vitamin D issues and their only treatment > > option> > > > is steroids. Partly. my publicising the protocol was naivete on my> > > > part. I had no

idea that people who had negative experiences or other> > > > ideas would be banned from posting their experiences. Even taken > > to court.> > > > I really hope you read the previous posts about the doc who's facing> > > > disciplinary action based on 12 patients reporting her for negligence> > > > in regards to prescribing the Marshall Protocol. Even more> > > > importantly, I hope you read the Mark London analysis of the > > protocol.> > > > In my experience, he's always been very thorough and his analyses are> > > > very well reasoned and supported with science.> > > > There are way too many leaps in reasoning to promote the protocol or> > > > omesartan alone as a sure tool for treating chronic infection. If> > > > anything, it's something that people should approach very

cautiously,> > > > and if they decide to experiment with it, they should know they are> > > > doing it with a great deal of risk because there's nothing out there> > > > yet that indicates it's a good long term anti-inflammatory or> > > > anti-microbial.> > > > penny> > > >> > > >> > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > >> > > >> > > > No virus found in this incoming message.> > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com> > > > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.40/2039 - Release Date: > > 04/03/09 06:19:00> > > >> > > >> > >> >> > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ->

>> >> > No virus found in this incoming message.> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.40/2039 - Release Date: 04/03/09 06:19:00> >> >>

April 6, 2009

Penny can you here me groaning ..…Your posts are so slanted ..your not

objective enough …You offer no alternatives to ARB’s .{don’t say aspirin

and co they carry their own risks]

In a nutshell

Angiotensin is promoted by pathogens ,,correct?

Too much angiotensin is bad and contributes to the awful symptoms of

chronic infection significantly.. correct?

How do you reduce angiotensin without treating with Olmesartan or other

arb’s …Of course you can say that science is crap as your pal Tony..and

just ignore the issue ..but as you’re a enlightened lady who appreciates

the reasoned and logical and of course have read the now many studies on

the role of angiotensin.. Are you or would you be happy knowing you have

many times the normal amounts of angiotensin?

…Should we then reduce angiotensin to as near normal levels as possible

...the answer must be yes ..

So we should treat with Olmesartan ..should we watch for possible side

effects ,,certainly, especially those with chronic conditions taking

other meds ..

Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater .Pathogens and inflammation

are one thing the MP is quite another .

Your condition is fairly extreme , other factors will be at work ,, long

term exposure to any drug warrants caution .. Perhaps the answer is to

monitor angiotensin, when near normal levels are achieved reduce the

dose. I take [when i remember] a maintenance dose of 40mg per day not in

response to any symptoms of inflammation but purely as a precaution .

Penny Houle wrote:

>

> I understand , why you're so excited. I had that same " magical

> effect " when I first took it. (It flattened me like an airless

> balloon, taking such high doses, but once I got past that, the relief

> was amazing). In fact the very first day I took it, it relieved head

> pressure that I wasn't even aware I had until it disappeared! I kept

> saying " my head feels so much lighter! " I was literally giddy with so

> much relief of pain and head pressure. Unfortunately, I was so excited

> that I also created the mp group along with our friend ,

> the vet, who originally told me about the protocol. Pretty quickly we

> realized that not everybody was responding the same positive way. Some

> saw no difference at all, others got extremely sick, really fast.

> That's when I started getting alarmed because I was constantly being

> told to censor people who had negative effects, and I just couldn't do

> that in good conscience. The rest is legal history as you know.

> The bummer was that not only did the protocol (or benicar alone) NOT

> deliver the promised results for everyone across the board, it even

> stopped delivering results for me, a person who'd had such a /great/

> start out the gate with it.

> Like you, I also reduced the dosage and I maintained symptom relief

> for a while, but gradually I started noticing other things, like the

> weakened thigh muscles, and the return of headaches, and catching

> colds, and just more weakness in general. I also felt like it was

> messing with my lungs somehow. People tried to post about studies that

> warned against things like the thigh/muscle damage, etc, but very

> little negative commentary on the protocol ever seemed to make it into

> the light of day. (No pun intended) For me, when the new symptoms

> started outweighing the diminishing relief of old symptoms, I decided

> I'd had enough. I wouldn't take benicar now, even if I had high blood

> pressure. You know how sometimes you just instinctually know something

> is not good for you and you have an aversion to it. That's how I feel

> about Benicar now.

> Like I said, I do understand your excitement, but you really haven't

> been taking it for all that long. The original promise was that 2

> years on the protocol would have you cured (of pretty much anything

> that ailed you). Hasn't it ever seemed a bit odd to you that the

> people making those promises are STILL on the protocol and still

> aren't cured? A cure means returning to your former state of health

> and not needing any maintenance drugs for an extended period of time.

> Why are the earliest adopters of the mp still taking the drugs or

> taking Benicar alone? Many of those people are way, WAY past 2 years.

> Last I heard, TM himself was still on Benicar. I haven't checked in a

> while but he was way over the 2 year limit when I left that scene, and

> that's been quite a few years now.

> I'm just really suggesting you temper your excitement, and wait a

> while before making such confident assertions. Take it from me, you

> can really regret it later. At the very least, please tell people on

> your website that it does not work for everyone, that the effects may

> not be long lived, and there's a possibility of negative side effects,

> which could become long lasting for some. There have even been a

> couple of deaths reported (but of course getting hard information on

> that is difficult, because people are so afraid to speak openly).

> Based on what I witnessed personally and what I've heard after my

> involvement, I believe the deaths to be true.

> All I know for sure is, it's not a nice little drug to mess with. .

> penny

>

> From: dumbaussie2000 <dumbaussie2000@...>

> Subject: [infections] Re: olmesartan - friend or foe

> infections

> Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009, 5:17 PM

>

> You keep quoting medical literature. Unfortunately we've all found

> that medical literature more often than not is a croc of crap..If

> they knew the exact science of inflammation, like they claim, no

> one would have any problems..This angiotensin renin bs doesn't

> even come close.You have a whole holistic and many other

> industries all touching and making an impact on inflammation in

> many different ways.

> I observe time and time again the crippling effects of this group

> of drugs and have seen dramatic improvemnt in people on there

> discontinuation. .I am talking crippling normal folk and leaving

> them invalids, until they discontinue the drug and often return to

> normal.

> You obviosuly don't look around and bury your head in the literature..

> I have an aunty that was full of life and energy and watched this

> drug give her adult onset asthma, crippling arthritis, and zap 70

> % of her energy and get up and go- what would you classify that as..

> Inflammation is more than is claimed, it's also an electrical

> energy even capable of giving your heart many irregularities that

> again no one can explain... as is obvious, your heart relies on

> electrical signalling to perform at it's peak, hence improvement

> in older patients with fatigue with the addition of a pacemaker..

> wake up and look around, you may have gotten inflammtion relief

> with benicar, but more often than not the drug builds resistance

> to what causes the inflammation in many and it becaomes useless,

> hence the need for the pharmaceutical companies to keep rolling

> out several newer and newer drugs in this category.

>

> > > > >

> > > > > , for some reason your emails keep coming through as

> possible

> > > spam

> > > > > and I have to approve them. Is there anything you can do

> on your end

> > > > > to fix that?

> > > > > , all I can do is share my own experience with olmesartan

> > > > > (benicar). Maybe you forget that I was one of the earliest

> people

> > > > > interested in this drug (other than the sarcoidosis

> folks). I know

> > > all

> > > > > about how it's supposed to work. I was very excited about

> it too,

> > > > > because it seemed to relieve my inflammatory symptoms. I

> took it for

> > > > > well over a year, maybe closer to 2, I can't recall without

> > > looking at

> > > > > my records. Unfortunately, in the process, I screwed up my

> thigh

> > > > > muscles and weakened my ability to fight viruses and flus.

> > > > > That had nothing to do with finding bugs /hidden/ behind

> inflammation

> > > > > and their resulting die off. Benicar didn't make my

> infection smaller

> > > > > either. I believe my infection got bigger. And that was

> with full

> > > > > strength antibiotics and anti-fungals.

> > > > > I also don't believe that olmesarten " potentiates "

> antibiotics. I

> > > > > started with the protocol as designed with low dose abx.

> The claim

> > > > > that the endless suffering that people experience on the

> protocol is

> > > > > due to bacterial die-off (herxing) and nothing else, is just

> > > > > rediculous. Die off should be short lived. Everyone's

> different, but

> > > > > most people with big infections should probably not be

> toying with

> > > > > tiny amounts of antibiotics. It just strengthens the bugs.

> > > > > I've been saying all along that I'm looking forward to

> more studies

> > > > > being done on Olmesartan. It seems to have a tremendous

> amount of

> > > > > potential. But I know far too many people who've had bad

> results with

> > > > > the experimental protocol, even deadly results, to go around

> > > promoting

> > > > > it as some kind of a wonder drug for people with chronic

> infection or

> > > > > so called " auto-immune " diseases. I really, /really /think

> it's

> > > > > irresponsible and I regret ever having publicized the marshall

> > > > > protocol. It should have stayed in the Sarcoidosis family

> where

> > > people

> > > > > really do have excess vitamin D issues and their only

> treatment

> > > option

> > > > > is steroids. Partly. my publicising the protocol was

> naivete on my

> > > > > part. I had no idea that people who had negative

> experiences or other

> > > > > ideas would be banned from posting their experiences. Even

> taken

> > > to court.

> > > > > I really hope you read the previous posts about the doc

> who's facing

> > > > > disciplinary action based on 12 patients reporting her for

> negligence

> > > > > in regards to prescribing the Marshall Protocol. Even more

> > > > > importantly, I hope you read the Mark London analysis of the

> > > protocol.

> > > > > In my experience, he's always been very thorough and his

> analyses are

> > > > > very well reasoned and supported with science.

> > > > > There are way too many leaps in reasoning to promote the

> protocol or

> > > > > omesartan alone as a sure tool for treating chronic

> infection. If

> > > > > anything, it's something that people should approach very

> cautiously,

> > > > > and if they decide to experiment with it, they should know

> they are

> > > > > doing it with a great deal of risk because there's nothing

> out there

> > > > > yet that indicates it's a good long term anti-inflammatory or

> > > > > anti-microbial.

> > > > > penny

> > > > >

> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > > >

> > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> > > > > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.40/2039 -

> Release Date:

> > > 04/03/09 06:19:00

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > >

> > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> > > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.40/2039 - Release

> Date: 04/03/09 06:19:00

> > >

> >

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.42/2042 - Release Date: 04/05/09

10:54:00

>

April 6, 2009

You sound just like me a few years back. "Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater." Unfortunately that baby might just turn out to be a little gremlin. :-)

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

In the meantime, I have to keep sharing my experience, because not many people do and I really prefer to prevent suffering if at all possible.

penny>>> From: dumbaussie2000 <dumbaussie2000@...>> Subject: [infections] Re: olmesartan - friend or foe> infections > Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009, 5:17 PM>> > You keep quoting medical literature. Unfortunately we've all

found> that medical literature more often than not is a croc of crap..If> they knew the exact science of inflammation, like they claim, no> one would have any problems..This angiotensin renin bs doesn't> even come close.You have a whole holistic and many other> industries all touching and making an impact on inflammation in> many different ways.> I observe time and time again the crippling effects of this group> of drugs and have seen dramatic improvemnt in people on there> discontinuation. .I am talking crippling normal folk and leaving> them invalids, until they discontinue the drug and often return to>

normal.> You obviosuly don't look around and bury your head in the literature..> I have an aunty that was full of life and energy and watched this> drug give her adult onset asthma, crippling arthritis, and zap 70> % of her energy and get up and go- what would you classify that as..> Inflammation is more than is claimed, it's also an electrical> energy even capable of giving your heart many irregularities that> again no one can explain... as is obvious, your heart relies on> electrical signalling to perform at it's peak, hence improvement> in older patients with fatigue with the addition of a pacemaker..> wake up and look around,

you may have gotten inflammtion relief> with benicar, but more often than not the drug builds resistance> to what causes the inflammation in many and it becaomes useless,> hence the need for the pharmaceutical companies to keep rolling> out several newer and newer drugs in this category.>> > > > > >> > > > > , for some reason your emails keep coming through as> possible> > > spam> > > > > and I have to approve them. Is there anything you can do> on your end> > > > > to fix that?> > > > > , all I can do is share my own experience with olmesartan>

> > > > (benicar). Maybe you forget that I was one of the earliest> people> > > > > interested in this drug (other than the sarcoidosis> folks). I know> > > all> > > > > about how it's supposed to work. I was very excited about> it too,> > > > > because it seemed to relieve my inflammatory symptoms. I> took it for> > > > > well over a year, maybe closer to 2, I can't recall without> > > looking at> > > > > my records. Unfortunately, in the process, I screwed up my> thigh>

> > > > muscles and weakened my ability to fight viruses and flus.> > > > > That had nothing to do with finding bugs /hidden/ behind> inflammation> > > > > and their resulting die off. Benicar didn't make my> infection smaller> > > > > either. I believe my infection got bigger. And that was> with full> > > > > strength antibiotics and anti-fungals.> > > > > I also don't believe that olmesarten "potentiates"> antibiotics. I> > > > > started with the protocol as designed with low dose abx.> The claim>

> > > > that the endless suffering that people experience on the> protocol is> > > > > due to bacterial die-off (herxing) and nothing else, is just> > > > > rediculous. Die off should be short lived. Everyone's> different, but> > > > > most people with big infections should probably not be> toying with> > > > > tiny amounts of antibiotics. It just strengthens the bugs.> > > > > I've been saying all along that I'm looking forward to> more studies> > > > > being done on Olmesartan. It seems to have a tremendous> amount

of> > > > > potential. But I know far too many people who've had bad> results with> > > > > the experimental protocol, even deadly results, to go around> > > promoting> > > > > it as some kind of a wonder drug for people with chronic> infection or> > > > > so called "auto-immune" diseases. I really, /really /think> it's> > > > > irresponsible and I regret ever having publicized the marshall> > > > > protocol. It should have stayed in the Sarcoidosis family> where> > > people>

> > > > really do have excess vitamin D issues and their only> treatment> > > option> > > > > is steroids. Partly. my publicising the protocol was> naivete on my> > > > > part. I had no idea that people who had negative> experiences or other> > > > > ideas would be banned from posting their experiences. Even> taken> > > to court.> > > > > I really hope you read the previous posts about the doc> who's facing> > > > > disciplinary action based on 12 patients reporting her for>

negligence> > > > > in regards to prescribing the Marshall Protocol. Even more> > > > > importantly, I hope you read the Mark London analysis of the> > > protocol.> > > > > In my experience, he's always been very thorough and his> analyses are> > > > > very well reasoned and supported with science.> > > > > There are way too many leaps in reasoning to promote the> protocol or> > > > > omesartan alone as a sure tool for treating chronic> infection. If> > > > > anything, it's something that people should approach

very> cautiously,> > > > > and if they decide to experiment with it, they should know> they are> > > > > doing it with a great deal of risk because there's nothing> out there> > > > > yet that indicates it's a good long term anti-inflammatory or> > > > > anti-microbial.> > > > > penny> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > >> > > >

>> > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.> > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com> > > > > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.40/2039 -> Release Date:> > > 04/03/09 06:19:00> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > >> > >> > > No virus found in this incoming message.> > > Checked by AVG -

www.avg.com> > > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.40/2039 - Release> Date: 04/03/09 06:19:00> > >> > >> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------>>> No virus found in this incoming message.> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.42/2042 - Release Date: 04/05/09 10:54:00>> ------------------------------------

April 8, 2009

Ahh Tony .. a post that has a point , If your friends dads condition was

known and the surgery planned , then yes ARB's would have been the

preferred option ..they don’t work immediately, a few days of therapy

would have been necessary. Up-regulation of Angiotensin is a normal

immune [wound] response .pathogens highjack the process, it becomes a

runaway response ... .....The problem of course is the fact that

medicine does not recognise the anti inflammatory action of ARB's.. If

doctors do know of their action they still don’t use the drug as an

anti-inflammatory ..they stick to the book for fear of criticism ..Its

why they prescribe chemo therapy for cancer even though in a poll 75% of

doctors said if they contracted cancer they would decline chemo therapy

....Medically speaking we are in the dark ages

dumbaussie2000 wrote:

>

> If the science were that clean and clear, why isn't it used and

> recommended in inflammatory conditions?I've only seen the best of the

> best so called experts only go with steroid type drugs..

> A friends dad recently had to undergo heart surgery and they placed

> him in an ice bath to tame the inflammation, would the arb not have

> been a good choice..Not to mention that arb's are widely used front

> line drugs here for any type of heart condition.

>

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > , for some reason your emails keep coming through as

> > > possible

> > > > > spam

> > > > > > > and I have to approve them. Is there anything you can do

> > > on your end

> > > > > > > to fix that?

> > > > > > > , all I can do is share my own experience with olmesartan

> > > > > > > (benicar). Maybe you forget that I was one of the earliest

> > > people

> > > > > > > interested in this drug (other than the sarcoidosis

> > > folks). I know

> > > > > all

> > > > > > > about how it's supposed to work. I was very excited about

> > > it too,

> > > > > > > because it seemed to relieve my inflammatory symptoms. I

> > > took it for

> > > > > > > well over a year, maybe closer to 2, I can't recall without

> > > > > looking at

> > > > > > > my records. Unfortunately, in the process, I screwed up my

> > > thigh

> > > > > > > muscles and weakened my ability to fight viruses and flus.

> > > > > > > That had nothing to do with finding bugs /hidden/ behind

> > > inflammation

> > > > > > > and their resulting die off. Benicar didn't make my

> > > infection smaller

> > > > > > > either. I believe my infection got bigger. And that was

> > > with full

> > > > > > > strength antibiotics and anti-fungals.

> > > > > > > I also don't believe that olmesarten " potentiates "

> > > antibiotics. I

> > > > > > > started with the protocol as designed with low dose abx.

> > > The claim

> > > > > > > that the endless suffering that people experience on the

> > > protocol is

> > > > > > > due to bacterial die-off (herxing) and nothing else, is just

> > > > > > > rediculous. Die off should be short lived. Everyone's

> > > different, but

> > > > > > > most people with big infections should probably not be

> > > toying with

> > > > > > > tiny amounts of antibiotics. It just strengthens the bugs.

> > > > > > > I've been saying all along that I'm looking forward to

> > > more studies

> > > > > > > being done on Olmesartan. It seems to have a tremendous

> > > amount of

> > > > > > > potential. But I know far too many people who've had bad

> > > results with

> > > > > > > the experimental protocol, even deadly results, to go around

> > > > > promoting

> > > > > > > it as some kind of a wonder drug for people with chronic

> > > infection or

> > > > > > > so called " auto-immune " diseases. I really, /really /think

> > > it's

> > > > > > > irresponsible and I regret ever having publicized the marshall

> > > > > > > protocol. It should have stayed in the Sarcoidosis family

> > > where

> > > > > people

> > > > > > > really do have excess vitamin D issues and their only

> > > treatment

> > > > > option

> > > > > > > is steroids. Partly. my publicising the protocol was

> > > naivete on my

> > > > > > > part. I had no idea that people who had negative

> > > experiences or other

> > > > > > > ideas would be banned from posting their experiences. Even

> > > taken

> > > > > to court.

> > > > > > > I really hope you read the previous posts about the doc

> > > who's facing

> > > > > > > disciplinary action based on 12 patients reporting her for

> > > negligence

> > > > > > > in regards to prescribing the Marshall Protocol. Even more

> > > > > > > importantly, I hope you read the Mark London analysis of the

> > > > > protocol.

> > > > > > > In my experience, he's always been very thorough and his

> > > analyses are

> > > > > > > very well reasoned and supported with science.

> > > > > > > There are way too many leaps in reasoning to promote the

> > > protocol or

> > > > > > > omesartan alone as a sure tool for treating chronic

> > > infection. If

> > > > > > > anything, it's something that people should approach very

> > > cautiously,

> > > > > > > and if they decide to experiment with it, they should know

> > > they are

> > > > > > > doing it with a great deal of risk because there's nothing

> > > out there

> > > > > > > yet that indicates it's a good long term anti-inflammatory or

> > > > > > > anti-microbial.

> > > > > > > penny

> > > > > > >

> > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> > > > > > > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.40/2039 -

> > > Release Date:

> > > > > 04/03/09 06:19:00

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > > >

> > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> > > > > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.40/2039 - Release

> > > Date: 04/03/09 06:19:00

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > ----------------------------------------------------------

> > >

> > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> > > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.42/2042 - Release Date:

> 04/05/09 10:54:00

> > >

> >

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.42/2042 - Release Date: 04/05/09

10:54:00

>

April 9, 2009

Mmmm , your a bit adrift in your understanding of how ARB's work......If

the heart patient is on ARB's he will not be on a dose that controls

inflammation ..the drug is licensed for treating hypertension, the max

dose is 40mg per day ..The full inflammatory blockade is 40mg every 8

hrs… the drugs do not " pretend " as you put it their effect is well

documented ..

And yes you’ve got it right with my interest in how we respond to

pathogens ..not just any old pathogens, but those that possess the

ability to hide and switch the immune system ..It's not switching the

pathogens on and off , it's switching the immune system on, antibiotics

will only take you so far, the immune system MUST finish the job

....stimulating the IS to recognise the invaders is the key to restoring

health .. As per my site ,it's patently obvious that

the rise in Lyme , Bartonella , and auto immune disease in general

across the civilised world have a common denominator- which is the

decline in our immunity care of the use [not the over use] of bacterial

antibiotics ...

http://www.yeast-candida-infections-uk.co.uk/

dumbaussie2000 wrote:

>

> Your still in the dark yourself unfortunately..Your sort of buying

> that the drug does the trick 100% of the time.This guys dad is

> probably already using an arb and has this runaway inflammation.I

> don't really know the full details as I only found the ice bath before

> heart surgery bit fascinating...

> your focused on the bodies response to pathogens..I focus on the

> pathogens, there needs and requirements are priority on understanding

> how to get your body well.Switching them on or off far outweighs any

> benefit a drug that pretends to control the landscape is going to deliver.

>

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > , for some reason your emails keep coming through as

> > > > > possible

> > > > > > > spam

> > > > > > > > > and I have to approve them. Is there anything you can do

> > > > > on your end

> > > > > > > > > to fix that?

> > > > > > > > > , all I can do is share my own experience with

> olmesartan

> > > > > > > > > (benicar). Maybe you forget that I was one of the earliest

> > > > > people

> > > > > > > > > interested in this drug (other than the sarcoidosis

> > > > > folks). I know

> > > > > > > all

> > > > > > > > > about how it's supposed to work. I was very excited about

> > > > > it too,

> > > > > > > > > because it seemed to relieve my inflammatory symptoms. I

> > > > > took it for

> > > > > > > > > well over a year, maybe closer to 2, I can't recall

> without

> > > > > > > looking at

> > > > > > > > > my records. Unfortunately, in the process, I screwed up my

> > > > > thigh

> > > > > > > > > muscles and weakened my ability to fight viruses and flus.

> > > > > > > > > That had nothing to do with finding bugs /hidden/ behind

> > > > > inflammation

> > > > > > > > > and their resulting die off. Benicar didn't make my

> > > > > infection smaller

> > > > > > > > > either. I believe my infection got bigger. And that was

> > > > > with full

> > > > > > > > > strength antibiotics and anti-fungals.

> > > > > > > > > I also don't believe that olmesarten " potentiates "

> > > > > antibiotics. I

> > > > > > > > > started with the protocol as designed with low dose abx.

> > > > > The claim

> > > > > > > > > that the endless suffering that people experience on the

> > > > > protocol is

> > > > > > > > > due to bacterial die-off (herxing) and nothing else,

> is just

> > > > > > > > > rediculous. Die off should be short lived. Everyone's

> > > > > different, but

> > > > > > > > > most people with big infections should probably not be

> > > > > toying with

> > > > > > > > > tiny amounts of antibiotics. It just strengthens the bugs.

> > > > > > > > > I've been saying all along that I'm looking forward to

> > > > > more studies

> > > > > > > > > being done on Olmesartan. It seems to have a tremendous

> > > > > amount of

> > > > > > > > > potential. But I know far too many people who've had bad

> > > > > results with

> > > > > > > > > the experimental protocol, even deadly results, to go

> around

> > > > > > > promoting

> > > > > > > > > it as some kind of a wonder drug for people with chronic

> > > > > infection or

> > > > > > > > > so called " auto-immune " diseases. I really, /really /think

> > > > > it's

> > > > > > > > > irresponsible and I regret ever having publicized the

> marshall

> > > > > > > > > protocol. It should have stayed in the Sarcoidosis family

> > > > > where

> > > > > > > people

> > > > > > > > > really do have excess vitamin D issues and their only

> > > > > treatment

> > > > > > > option

> > > > > > > > > is steroids. Partly. my publicising the protocol was

> > > > > naivete on my

> > > > > > > > > part. I had no idea that people who had negative

> > > > > experiences or other

> > > > > > > > > ideas would be banned from posting their experiences. Even

> > > > > taken

> > > > > > > to court.

> > > > > > > > > I really hope you read the previous posts about the doc

> > > > > who's facing

> > > > > > > > > disciplinary action based on 12 patients reporting her for

> > > > > negligence

> > > > > > > > > in regards to prescribing the Marshall Protocol. Even more

> > > > > > > > > importantly, I hope you read the Mark London analysis

> of the

> > > > > > > protocol.

> > > > > > > > > In my experience, he's always been very thorough and his

> > > > > analyses are

> > > > > > > > > very well reasoned and supported with science.

> > > > > > > > > There are way too many leaps in reasoning to promote the

> > > > > protocol or

> > > > > > > > > omesartan alone as a sure tool for treating chronic

> > > > > infection. If

> > > > > > > > > anything, it's something that people should approach very

> > > > > cautiously,

> > > > > > > > > and if they decide to experiment with it, they should know

> > > > > they are

> > > > > > > > > doing it with a great deal of risk because there's nothing

> > > > > out there

> > > > > > > > > yet that indicates it's a good long term

> anti-inflammatory or

> > > > > > > > > anti-microbial.

> > > > > > > > > penny

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------

> --------- -

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> > > > > > > > > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.40/2039 -

> > > > > Release Date:

> > > > > > > 04/03/09 06:19:00

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------

> --------- -

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> > > > > > > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.40/2039 - Release

> > > > > Date: 04/03/09 06:19:00

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------

> > > > >

> > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> > > > > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.42/2042 - Release Date:

> > > 04/05/09 10:54:00

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > ----------------------------------------------------------

> > >

> > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> > > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.42/2042 - Release Date:

> 04/05/09 10:54:00

> > >

> >

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.47/2047 - Release Date: 04/08/09

05:53:00

>

April 10, 2009

Maybe we should call this group, Infection, Inflammation and Slime. :-)

All kidding aside, I so wish we could find effective ways to break down the biofilms that are keeping our infections thriving. Research results are very discouraging so far. Dampening inflammation doesn't do a whole lot of good towards a cure if the infection has a biofilm barrier that resists almost all treatments.

Inflammation is one of the immune systems' major defenses. The side effects of too much inflammation can be really disastrous. Many of our symptoms as well as actual physical damage are the result of raging inflammation caused by an upregulated immune response. But conversely, if the immune system is suppressed too much in trying to quiet the inflammation, the bacteria benefits more than we do.

It's very tricky finding the right balance. My experience has been too much one way or the other. Haven't found the right balance yet.

So far, the most effective (yet tricky) way of removing biofilms is through debridement. Actually cutting or scraping or scrubbing away the infected tissue or bone (the tricky part is doing it without spreading the infection). Fungi have a similar mechanism where they not only attach themselves to tissue, they invade it. Once that happens, the only option again is debridement. Removing the affected tissue.

And there's the rub (no pun intended). There are plenty of places in the body that can't be debrided. If things get bad in a diabetic with an infected foot to the point that debridement isn't working, they simply amputate the foot. Applying that cure for some of us with infected jaws, sinuses or vital organs, would also be the death of us.

From: dumbaussie2000 <dumbaussie2000@...>Subject: [infections] Re: olmesartan - friend or foeinfections Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 11:12 PM

If bacteria use slime to evade the immune system, what can you do to bolster the immune system?Understandin g the slime and the bacteria that produce it and the slimes ability to lay a matrix of communication between the bacteria to start your buzzing processes/ fog process, or howeever your impacted by this harmonious bacterial procession, is more important than actually imagining your immune system can fix things.You can't have healthy rivers when there stagnant..The other problem we face with this slime is that it hardens and deposits all over your anatomy and there's no immune system going to break open a pandora's box and fix things like your lead to believe...> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > , for some reason your emails keep coming through as> > > > > > possible> > > > > > > > spam> > > > > > > > > > and I have to approve them. Is there anything you can do> > > > > > on your end> > > > > > > > > > to fix that?> > > > > > > > > > , all I can do is share my own experience with > > olmesartan> > > > > >

> > > > (benicar). Maybe you forget that I was one of the earliest> > > > > > people> > > > > > > > > > interested in this drug (other than the sarcoidosis> > > > > > folks). I know> > > > > > > > all> > > > > > > > > > about how it's supposed to work. I was very excited about> > > > > > it too,> > > > > > > > > > because it seemed to relieve my inflammatory symptoms. I> > > > > > took it for> > > > > > > > > > well over a year, maybe closer to 2, I can't recall > > without> > > > > > > > looking at> > > > > > > > > > my records. Unfortunately, in the process, I screwed up my> > > > > > thigh>

> > > > > > > > > muscles and weakened my ability to fight viruses and flus.> > > > > > > > > > That had nothing to do with finding bugs /hidden/ behind> > > > > > inflammation> > > > > > > > > > and their resulting die off. Benicar didn't make my> > > > > > infection smaller> > > > > > > > > > either. I believe my infection got bigger. And that was> > > > > > with full> > > > > > > > > > strength antibiotics and anti-fungals.> > > > > > > > > > I also don't believe that olmesarten "potentiates"> > > > > > antibiotics. I> > > > > > > > > > started with the protocol as designed with low dose abx.> > > > > > The

claim> > > > > > > > > > that the endless suffering that people experience on the> > > > > > protocol is> > > > > > > > > > due to bacterial die-off (herxing) and nothing else, > > is just> > > > > > > > > > rediculous. Die off should be short lived. Everyone's> > > > > > different, but> > > > > > > > > > most people with big infections should probably not be> > > > > > toying with> > > > > > > > > > tiny amounts of antibiotics. It just strengthens the bugs.> > > > > > > > > > I've been saying all along that I'm looking forward to> > > > > > more studies> > > > > > > > > > being done on Olmesartan. It seems to have a

tremendous> > > > > > amount of> > > > > > > > > > potential. But I know far too many people who've had bad> > > > > > results with> > > > > > > > > > the experimental protocol, even deadly results, to go > > around> > > > > > > > promoting> > > > > > > > > > it as some kind of a wonder drug for people with chronic> > > > > > infection or> > > > > > > > > > so called "auto-immune" diseases. I really, /really /think> > > > > > it's> > > > > > > > > > irresponsible and I regret ever having publicized the > > marshall> > > > > > > > > > protocol. It should have stayed in the Sarcoidosis family> > > > >

> where> > > > > > > > people> > > > > > > > > > really do have excess vitamin D issues and their only> > > > > > treatment> > > > > > > > option> > > > > > > > > > is steroids. Partly. my publicising the protocol was> > > > > > naivete on my> > > > > > > > > > part. I had no idea that people who had negative> > > > > > experiences or other> > > > > > > > > > ideas would be banned from posting their experiences. Even> > > > > > taken> > > > > > > > to court.> > > > > > > > > > I really hope you read the previous posts about the doc> > > > > > who's facing> > > > > > >

> > > disciplinary action based on 12 patients reporting her for> > > > > > negligence> > > > > > > > > > in regards to prescribing the Marshall Protocol. Even more> > > > > > > > > > importantly, I hope you read the Mark London analysis > > of the> > > > > > > > protocol.> > > > > > > > > > In my experience, he's always been very thorough and his> > > > > > analyses are> > > > > > > > > > very well reasoned and supported with science.> > > > > > > > > > There are way too many leaps in reasoning to promote the> > > > > > protocol or> > > > > > > > > > omesartan alone as a sure tool for treating chronic> > > > > >

infection. If> > > > > > > > > > anything, it's something that people should approach very> > > > > > cautiously,> > > > > > > > > > and if they decide to experiment with it, they should know> > > > > > they are> > > > > > > > > > doing it with a great deal of risk because there's nothing> > > > > > out there> > > > > > > > > > yet that indicates it's a good long term > > anti-inflammatory or> > > > > > > > > > anti-microbial.> > > > > > > > > > penny> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > ------------ ---------

--------- --------- --------- > > --------- -> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.> > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com> > > > > > > > > > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.40/2039 -> > > > > > Release Date:> > > > > > > > 04/03/09 06:19:00> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- > > --------- -> > > > > > > >>

> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.> > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com> > > > > > > > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.40/2039 - Release> > > > > > Date: 04/03/09 06:19:00> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.> > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com> > > > > > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.42/2042 - Release Date:> > > >

04/05/09 10:54:00> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > >> > > >> > > > No virus found in this incoming message.> > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com> > > > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.42/2042 - Release Date: > > 04/05/09 10:54:00> > > >> > > >> > >> >> > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> >> >> > No virus found in this incoming message.> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.47/2047 - Release Date: 04/08/09 05:53:00> >>

>>

April 11, 2009

Penny, bio films are a red herring.......80% of

all

infections develop bio film, its been that way for eons ..Bio films are

very

much a consequence of chronic infection rather than a cause ..With the

rise in incidence

of autism , CFS, Lyme, diabetes, and all of the other so called auto

immune disease

its clear something fundamentally catastrophic with our immunity has

occurred

..If you cant see that ,, then your lost in the woods ..

And what’s this about suppressing the immune system whilst treating

inflammation? First ive heard of this ....Also , the decision to

debride an

infected area is not based of whether the infection is present . but

when

all other methods have failed.. As a diabetic i can tell you that its

not

pathogens forming bio films that leads to amputation of [usually ]toes,

feet

...but circulatory problems, blood fails to reach extremity’s , staved

of blood

the affected limbs become gangrenous ..

Dont know if youve seen this resorce

Molecular

Oral Microbiology

http://www.horizonpress.com/oral2

Penny Houle wrote:

Maybe we should call this group, Infection,

Inflammation and Slime. :-)

All kidding aside, I so wish we

could find effective ways to break down the biofilms

that are keeping our infections thriving. Research results are very

discouraging so far. Dampening inflammation doesn't do a whole lot of

good towards a cure if the infection has a biofilm barrier that resists

almost all treatments.

Inflammation is one of the immune systems' major defenses.

The side effects of too much inflammation can be really disastrous.

Many of our symptoms as well as actual physical damage are the result

of raging inflammation caused by an upregulated immune response.

But conversely, if the immune system is suppressed too much in trying

to quiet the inflammation, the bacteria benefits more than we do.

It's very tricky finding the right balance. My experience

has been too much one way or the other. Haven't found the right balance

yet.

So far, the most effective (yet tricky) way of removing

biofilms is through debridement. Actually cutting or scraping or

scrubbing away the infected tissue or bone (the tricky part is doing it

without spreading the infection). Fungi have a similar mechanism where

they not only attach themselves to tissue, they invade it. Once that

happens, the only option again is debridement. Removing the affected

tissue.

And there's the rub (no pun intended). There are plenty of

places in the body that can't be debrided. If things get bad in a

diabetic with an infected foot to the point that debridement isn't

working, they simply amputate the foot. Applying that cure for some of

us with infected jaws, sinuses or vital organs, would also be the death

of us.

--- On Thu, 4/9/09, dumbaussie2000 <dumbaussie2000 .au>

wrote:

From: dumbaussie2000 <dumbaussie2000 .au>

Subject: [infections] Re: olmesartan - friend or foe

infections

Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 11:12 PM

If bacteria use slime to evade the immune system, what can you do to

bolster the immune system?Understandin g the slime and the bacteria

that produce it and the slimes ability to lay a matrix of communication

between the bacteria to start your buzzing processes/ fog process, or

howeever your impacted by this harmonious bacterial procession, is more

important than actually imagining your immune system can fix things.You

can't have healthy rivers when there stagnant..The other problem we

face with this slime is that it hardens and deposits all over your

anatomy and there's no immune system going to break open a pandora's

box and fix things like your lead to believe...

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > , for some reason

your emails keep coming through as

> > > > > > possible

> > > > > > > > spam

> > > > > > > > > > and I have to approve

them. Is there anything you can do

> > > > > > on your end

> > > > > > > > > > to fix that?

> > > > > > > > > > , all I can do is

share my own experience with

> > olmesartan

> > > > > > > > > > (benicar). Maybe you

forget that I was one of the earliest

> > > > > > people

> > > > > > > > > > interested in this

drug (other than the sarcoidosis

> > > > > > folks). I know

> > > > > > > > all

> > > > > > > > > > about how it's

supposed to work. I was very excited about

> > > > > > it too,

> > > > > > > > > > because it seemed to

relieve my inflammatory symptoms. I

> > > > > > took it for

> > > > > > > > > > well over a year,

maybe closer to 2, I can't recall

> > without

> > > > > > > > looking at

> > > > > > > > > > my records.

Unfortunately, in the process, I screwed up my

> > > > > > thigh

> > > > > > > > > > muscles and weakened

my ability to fight viruses and flus.

> > > > > > > > > > That had nothing to

do with finding bugs /hidden/ behind

> > > > > > inflammation

> > > > > > > > > > and their resulting

die off. Benicar didn't make my

> > > > > > infection smaller

> > > > > > > > > > either. I believe my

infection got bigger. And that was

> > > > > > with full

> > > > > > > > > > strength antibiotics

and anti-fungals.

> > > > > > > > > > I also don't believe

that olmesarten "potentiates"

> > > > > > antibiotics. I

> > > > > > > > > > started with the

protocol as designed with low dose abx.

> > > > > > The claim

> > > > > > > > > > that the endless

suffering that people experience on the

> > > > > > protocol is

> > > > > > > > > > due to bacterial

die-off (herxing) and nothing else,

> > is just

> > > > > > > > > > rediculous. Die off

should be short lived. Everyone's

> > > > > > different, but

> > > > > > > > > > most people with big

infections should probably not be

> > > > > > toying with

> > > > > > > > > > tiny amounts of

antibiotics. It just strengthens the bugs.

> > > > > > > > > > I've been saying all

along that I'm looking forward to

> > > > > > more studies

> > > > > > > > > > being done on

Olmesartan. It seems to have a tremendous

> > > > > > amount of

> > > > > > > > > > potential. But I know

far too many people who've had bad

> > > > > > results with

> > > > > > > > > > the experimental

protocol, even deadly results, to go

> > around

> > > > > > > > promoting

> > > > > > > > > > it as some kind of a

wonder drug for people with chronic

> > > > > > infection or

> > > > > > > > > > so called

"auto-immune" diseases. I really, /really /think

> > > > > > it's

> > > > > > > > > > irresponsible and I

regret ever having publicized the

> > marshall

> > > > > > > > > > protocol. It should

have stayed in the Sarcoidosis family

> > > > > > where

> > > > > > > > people

> > > > > > > > > > really do have excess

vitamin D issues and their only

> > > > > > treatment

> > > > > > > > option

> > > > > > > > > > is steroids. Partly.

my publicising the protocol was

> > > > > > naivete on my

> > > > > > > > > > part. I had no idea

that people who had negative

> > > > > > experiences or other

> > > > > > > > > > ideas would be banned

from posting their experiences. Even

> > > > > > taken

> > > > > > > > to court.

> > > > > > > > > > I really hope you

read the previous posts about the doc

> > > > > > who's facing

> > > > > > > > > > disciplinary action

based on 12 patients reporting her for

> > > > > > negligence

> > > > > > > > > > in regards to

prescribing the Marshall Protocol. Even more

> > > > > > > > > > importantly, I hope

you read the Mark London analysis

> > of the

> > > > > > > > protocol.

> > > > > > > > > > In my experience,

he's always been very thorough and his

> > > > > > analyses are

> > > > > > > > > > very well reasoned

and supported with science.

> > > > > > > > > > There are way too

many leaps in reasoning to promote the

> > > > > > protocol or

> > > > > > > > > > omesartan alone as a

sure tool for treating chronic

> > > > > > infection. If

> > > > > > > > > > anything, it's

something that people should approach very

> > > > > > cautiously,

> > > > > > > > > > and if they decide to

experiment with it, they should know

> > > > > > they are

> > > > > > > > > > doing it with a great

deal of risk because there's nothing

> > > > > > out there

> > > > > > > > > > yet that indicates

it's a good long term

> > anti-inflammatory or

> > > > > > > > > > anti-microbial.

> > > > > > > > > > penny

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > ------------ ---------

--------- --------- ---------

> > --------- -

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > No virus found in

this incoming message.

> > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG -

www.avg.com

> > > > > > > > > > Version: 8.0.238 /

Virus Database: 270.11.40/2039 -

> > > > > > Release Date:

> > > > > > > > 04/03/09 06:19:00

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > ------------ ---------

--------- --------- ---------

> > --------- -

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming

message.

> > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> > > > > > > > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus

Database: 270.11.40/2039 - Release

> > > > > > Date: 04/03/09 06:19:00

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ------------ --------- ---------

--------- --------- --------- -

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> > > > > > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database:

270.11.42/2042 - Release Date:

> > > > 04/05/09 10:54:00

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > ------------ --------- --------- ---------

--------- --------- -

> > > >

> > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> > > > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.42/2042 -

Release Date:

> > 04/05/09 10:54:00

> > > >

> > >

> >

> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------

--------- -

> >

> > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.47/2047 - Release

Date: 04/08/09 05:53:00

> >

>

No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.51/2052 - Release Date: 04/10/09 06:39:00

April 11, 2009

, I'm a bit surprised by this post.

Biofilms aren't a "cause", they're a defense. If you do the research, you'll see there aren't any slam dunk treatments to stop bacterial bio-films from forming or to remove them once they've formed...they're impervious to just about everything. So not only are bacteria capable of mutating to live in almost any environment and to protect themselves against almost any antimicrobial threat, and of creating toxins to ward off other microbes, they're also capable of creating an extremely effective, impermeable armor for even greater protection.

Why do you think debridement is done anyway? It's to get the blood flowing into the infected area so that the immune system can work. No blood, no immunity. If there's too much necrosis (dead) tissue or bone, or build up of biofilms, the immune system can't reach the infection. Whether it's a bone infection, a burn or an infected scrape, the dead matter has to be removed to keep the blood flowing. It's much harder to debride successfully when it's a jaw infection (where blood doesn't flow much to begin with) or a chronic sinus infection (what do you think sinus surgery is if not a form of debridement?) because they're difficult places to debride, and because 99.9% of dentists and ENTs don't follow through with antimicrobial treatment plans as orthopedic surgeons would. Oh, and on top of that, there's the little problem with infection clumping up the blood anyway, creating "sticky cells" that don't flow well to begin with.

Inflammation is another tool of the immune system. Most people know that after an injury you need to ice it to reduce the inflammation, then apply heat to cause the blood to flow to the area for healing. Aspirin is an effective anti-inflammatory and blood thinner. Steroids are a much more serious anti-inflammatory and blood thinner. As they reduce inflammation, they also reduce the immune system's ability to function. That's why people on steroids are at risk for developing infections, they have no defenses left. I'm sure steroids were the cause of my contracting pneumonia recently, something I haven't experienced since I was a child. The only other time I've had a cold or flu since being dx'd with CFS was when I was on Benicar. Again, I believe it was because the benicar suppressed my immune system enough to relieve my inflammation symptoms, but also enough to make me incapable of fighting off flus.

The idea that PWC's immune systems are compromised is no big news. Most people assume it means immunity has been weakened. I, and a lot of other pwc, believe our immune systems are upregulated or overactivated due to constantly fighting low grade, chronic infections. In the process, a lot of pain, damage, and other symptoms are caused by the excessive, chronic inflammation.

Like I said before, the trick is calming inflammation just enough without rendering it useless. Then the blood needs to be thinned enough to compensate for its stickiness

and allow the immune system to get to the site, as well as deliver any antimicrobials taken as part of therapy.

Much easier said than done. And more issues than just one to deal with. If only it were that simple. Because even if you manage to do all these things, you've still got the bio-films to deal with. And so far, even though a lot of people are researching how to disintigrate them, there's really not much encouraging news on that front.

penny

From: dumbaussie2000 <dumbaussie2000. au>Subject: [infectionAndInflam mation2] Re: olmesartan - friend or foeInfectionAndInflamm ation2@grou ps.comDate: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 11:12 PM

If bacteria use slime to evade the immune system, what can you do to bolster the immune system?Understandin g the slime and the bacteria that produce it and the slimes ability to lay a matrix of communication between the bacteria to start your buzzing processes/ fog process, or howeever your impacted by this harmonious bacterial procession, is more important than actually imagining your immune system can fix things.You can't have healthy rivers when there stagnant..The other problem we face with this slime is that it hardens and deposits all over your anatomy and there's no immune system going to break open a pandora's box and fix things like your lead to believe...> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > , for some reason your emails keep coming through as> > > > > > possible> > > > > > > > spam> > > > > > > > > > and I have to approve them. Is there anything you can do> > > > > > on your end> > > > > > > > > > to fix that?> > > >

> > > > > > , all I can do is share my own experience with > > olmesartan> > > > > > > > > > (benicar). Maybe you forget that I was one of the earliest> > > > > > people> > > > > > > > > > interested in this drug (other than the sarcoidosis> > > > > > folks). I know> > > > > > > > all> > > > > > > > > > about how it's supposed to work. I was very excited about> > > > > > it too,> > > > > > > > > > because it seemed to relieve my inflammatory symptoms. I> > > > > > took it for> > > > > > > > > > well over a year, maybe closer to 2, I can't recall > > without> > > > > > > > looking at> > >

> > > > > > > my records. Unfortunately, in the process, I screwed up my> > > > > > thigh> > > > > > > > > > muscles and weakened my ability to fight viruses and flus.> > > > > > > > > > That had nothing to do with finding bugs /hidden/ behind> > > > > > inflammation> > > > > > > > > > and their resulting die off. Benicar didn't make my> > > > > > infection smaller> > > > > > > > > > either. I believe my infection got bigger. And that was> > > > > > with full> > > > > > > > > > strength antibiotics and anti-fungals.> > > > > > > > > > I also don't believe that olmesarten "potentiates"> > > > > > antibiotics. I> >

> > > > > > > > started with the protocol as designed with low dose abx.> > > > > > The claim> > > > > > > > > > that the endless suffering that people experience on the> > > > > > protocol is> > > > > > > > > > due to bacterial die-off (herxing) and nothing else, > > is just> > > > > > > > > > rediculous. Die off should be short lived. Everyone's> > > > > > different, but> > > > > > > > > > most people with big infections should probably not be> > > > > > toying with> > > > > > > > > > tiny amounts of antibiotics. It just strengthens the bugs.> > > > > > > > > > I've been saying all along that I'm looking forward to> >

> > > > more studies> > > > > > > > > > being done on Olmesartan. It seems to have a tremendous> > > > > > amount of> > > > > > > > > > potential. But I know far too many people who've had bad> > > > > > results with> > > > > > > > > > the experimental protocol, even deadly results, to go > > around> > > > > > > > promoting> > > > > > > > > > it as some kind of a wonder drug for people with chronic> > > > > > infection or> > > > > > > > > > so called "auto-immune" diseases. I really, /really /think> > > > > > it's> > > > > > > > > > irresponsible and I regret ever having publicized the > > marshall>

> > > > > > > > > protocol. It should have stayed in the Sarcoidosis family> > > > > > where> > > > > > > > people> > > > > > > > > > really do have excess vitamin D issues and their only> > > > > > treatment> > > > > > > > option> > > > > > > > > > is steroids. Partly. my publicising the protocol was> > > > > > naivete on my> > > > > > > > > > part. I had no idea that people who had negative> > > > > > experiences or other> > > > > > > > > > ideas would be banned from posting their experiences. Even> > > > > > taken> > > > > > > > to court.> > > > > > > > > > I really

hope you read the previous posts about the doc> > > > > > who's facing> > > > > > > > > > disciplinary action based on 12 patients reporting her for> > > > > > negligence> > > > > > > > > > in regards to prescribing the Marshall Protocol. Even more> > > > > > > > > > importantly, I hope you read the Mark London analysis > > of the> > > > > > > > protocol.> > > > > > > > > > In my experience, he's always been very thorough and his> > > > > > analyses are> > > > > > > > > > very well reasoned and supported with science.> > > > > > > > > > There are way too many leaps in reasoning to promote the> > > > > > protocol or> >

> > > > > > > > omesartan alone as a sure tool for treating chronic> > > > > > infection. If> > > > > > > > > > anything, it's something that people should approach very> > > > > > cautiously,> > > > > > > > > > and if they decide to experiment with it, they should know> > > > > > they are> > > > > > > > > > doing it with a great deal of risk because there's nothing> > > > > > out there> > > > > > > > > > yet that indicates it's a good long term > > anti-inflammatory or> > > > > > > > > > anti-microbial.> > > > > > > > > > penny> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >

>> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- > > --------- -> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.> > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com> > > > > > > > > > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.40/2039 -> > > > > > Release Date:> > > > > > > > 04/03/09 06:19:00> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >

>> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- > > --------- -> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.> > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com> > > > > > > > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.40/2039 - Release> > > > > > Date: 04/03/09 06:19:00> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> >

> > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.> > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com> > > > > > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.42/2042 - Release Date:> > > > 04/05/09 10:54:00> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > >> > > >> > > > No virus found in this incoming message.> > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com> > > > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database:

270.11.42/2042 - Release Date: > > 04/05/09 10:54:00> > > >> > > >> > >> >> > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> >> >> > No virus found in this incoming message.> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.47/2047 - Release Date: 04/08/09 05:53:00> >> >>

No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.51/2052 - Release Date: 04/10/09 06:39:00

April 12, 2009

Yes biofilms are a defence… bacteria haven’t just invented biofilms …

80% of all infections create a biofilm …..with the vast majority the

immune system overcomes in the end … fact is, the longer you host an

infection the more entrenched it becomes, biofilms being part of that.

I am familiar with debridement procedure and hyper coagulation caused by

pathogens.

Inflammation is a part of the immune response ,normally angiotensin is

up- regulated… when the challenge is met the cytokine brake is applied ,

normal surveillance mode is assumed …Some pathogens can disable the

cytokine brake. and a runaway inflammatory response is the result, it

effectively hides the pathogens from the immune system. Logically your

immune system came back on line after taking Olmesartan and responded to

pathogens that gave you flue like symptoms .

You wrote

“The idea that PWC's immune systems are compromised is no big news. Most

people assume it means immunity has been weakened. I, and a lot of other

pwc, believe our immune systems are *up*regulated or *over*activated due

to constantly fighting low grade, chronic infections. In the process, a

lot of pain, damage, and other symptoms are caused by the excessive,

chronic inflammation.

“

Exactly the opposite happens in chronic infections ..it’s know that the

immune system becomes stressed and becomes less efficient ..Our bugs are

stealth and the IS responds not to a presenting antigen but to the

damage and toxins the pathogens produce ..the immune system is decoyed

it deploys in wound mode.. It looks like the rise in allergy’s is this

process.

Penny Houle wrote:

>

> , I'm a bit surprised by this post.

> Biofilms aren't a " cause " , they're a defense. If you do the research,

> you'll see there aren't any slam dunk treatments to stop bacterial

> bio-films from forming or to remove them once they've formed...they're

> impervious to just about everything. So not only are bacteria capable

> of mutating to live in almost any environment and to protect

> themselves against almost any antimicrobial threat, and of creating

> toxins to ward off other microbes, they're also capable of creating an

> extremely effective, impermeable armor for even greater protection.

> Why do you think debridement is done anyway? It's to get the blood

> flowing into the infected area so that the immune system can work. No

> blood, no immunity. If there's too much necrosis (dead) tissue or

> bone, or build up of biofilms, the immune system can't reach the

> infection. Whether it's a bone infection, a burn or an infected

> scrape, the dead matter has to be removed to keep the blood flowing.

> It's much harder to debride successfully when it's a jaw infection

> (where blood doesn't flow much to begin with) or a chronic sinus

> infection (what do you think sinus surgery is if not a form of

> debridement?) because they're difficult places to debride, and because

> 99.9% of dentists and ENTs don't follow through with antimicrobial

> treatment plans as orthopedic surgeons would. Oh, and on top of that,

> there's the little problem with infection clumping up the blood

> anyway, creating " sticky cells " that don't flow well to begin with.

> Inflammation is another tool of the immune system. Most people know

> that after an injury you need to ice it to reduce the inflammation,

> then apply heat to cause the blood to flow to the area for healing.

> Aspirin is an effective anti-inflammatory and blood thinner. Steroids

> are a much more serious anti-inflammatory and blood thinner. As they

> reduce inflammation, they also reduce the immune system's ability to

> function. That's why people on steroids are at risk for developing

> infections, they have no defenses left. I'm sure steroids were the

> cause of my contracting pneumonia recently, something I haven't

> experienced since I was a child. The only other time I've had a cold

> or flu since being dx'd with CFS was when I was on Benicar. Again, I

> believe it was because the benicar suppressed my immune system enough

> to relieve my inflammation symptoms, but also enough to make me

> incapable of fighting off flus.

> The idea that PWC's immune systems are compromised is no big news.

> Most people assume it means immunity has been weakened. I, and a lot

> of other pwc, believe our immune systems are *up*regulated or

> *over*activated due to constantly fighting low grade, chronic

> infections. In the process, a lot of pain, damage, and other symptoms

> are caused by the excessive, chronic inflammation.

> Like I said before, the trick is calming inflammation just enough

> without rendering it useless. Then the blood needs to be thinned

> enough to compensate for its stickiness

> and allow the immune system to get to the site, as well as deliver any

> antimicrobials taken as part of therapy.

> Much easier said than done. And more issues than just one to deal

> with. If only it were that simple. Because even if you manage to do

> all these things, you've still got the bio-films to deal with. And so

> far, even though a lot of people are researching how to disintigrate

> them, there's really not much encouraging news on that front.

> penny

>

>>

>> From: dumbaussie2000 <dumbaussie2000. au>

>> Subject: [infectionAndInflam mation2] Re: olmesartan - friend

>> or foe

>> InfectionAndInflamm ation2@grou ps.com

>> Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 11:12 PM

>>

>> If bacteria use slime to evade the immune system, what can

>> you do to bolster the immune system?Understandin g the slime

>> and the bacteria that produce it and the slimes ability to

>> lay a matrix of communication between the bacteria to start

>> your buzzing processes/ fog process, or howeever your

>> impacted by this harmonious bacterial procession, is more

>> important than actually imagining your immune system can fix

>> things.You can't have healthy rivers when there stagnant..The

>> other problem we face with this slime is that it hardens and

>> deposits all over your anatomy and there's no immune system

>> going to break open a pandora's box and fix things like your

>> lead to believe...

>>

>> > > > > > > > > > >

>> > > > > > > > > > > , for some reason your emails keep

>> coming through as

>> > > > > > > possible

>> > > > > > > > > spam

>> > > > > > > > > > > and I have to approve them. Is there

>> anything you can do

>> > > > > > > on your end

>> > > > > > > > > > > to fix that?

>> > > > > > > > > > > , all I can do is share my own

>> experience with

>> > > olmesartan

>> > > > > > > > > > > (benicar). Maybe you forget that I was

>> one of the earliest

>> > > > > > > people

>> > > > > > > > > > > interested in this drug (other than the

>> sarcoidosis

>> > > > > > > folks). I know

>> > > > > > > > > all

>> > > > > > > > > > > about how it's supposed to work. I was

>> very excited about

>> > > > > > > it too,

>> > > > > > > > > > > because it seemed to relieve my

>> inflammatory symptoms. I

>> > > > > > > took it for

>> > > > > > > > > > > well over a year, maybe closer to 2, I

>> can't recall

>> > > without

>> > > > > > > > > looking at

>> > > > > > > > > > > my records. Unfortunately, in the

>> process, I screwed up my

>> > > > > > > thigh

>> > > > > > > > > > > muscles and weakened my ability to fight

>> viruses and flus.

>> > > > > > > > > > > That had nothing to do with finding bugs

>> /hidden/ behind

>> > > > > > > inflammation

>> > > > > > > > > > > and their resulting die off. Benicar

>> didn't make my

>> > > > > > > infection smaller

>> > > > > > > > > > > either. I believe my infection got

>> bigger. And that was

>> > > > > > > with full

>> > > > > > > > > > > strength antibiotics and anti-fungals.

>> > > > > > > > > > > I also don't believe that olmesarten

>> " potentiates "

>> > > > > > > antibiotics. I

>> > > > > > > > > > > started with the protocol as designed

>> with low dose abx.

>> > > > > > > The claim

>> > > > > > > > > > > that the endless suffering that people

>> experience on the

>> > > > > > > protocol is

>> > > > > > > > > > > due to bacterial die-off (herxing) and

>> nothing else,

>> > > is just

>> > > > > > > > > > > rediculous. Die off should be short

>> lived. Everyone's

>> > > > > > > different, but

>> > > > > > > > > > > most people with big infections should

>> probably not be

>> > > > > > > toying with

>> > > > > > > > > > > tiny amounts of antibiotics. It just

>> strengthens the bugs.

>> > > > > > > > > > > I've been saying all along that I'm

>> looking forward to

>> > > > > > > more studies

>> > > > > > > > > > > being done on Olmesartan. It seems to

>> have a tremendous

>> > > > > > > amount of

>> > > > > > > > > > > potential. But I know far too many people

>> who've had bad

>> > > > > > > results with

>> > > > > > > > > > > the experimental protocol, even deadly

>> results, to go

>> > > around

>> > > > > > > > > promoting

>> > > > > > > > > > > it as some kind of a wonder drug for

>> people with chronic

>> > > > > > > infection or

>> > > > > > > > > > > so called " auto-immune " diseases. I

>> really, /really /think

>> > > > > > > it's

>> > > > > > > > > > > irresponsible and I regret ever having

>> publicized the

>> > > marshall

>> > > > > > > > > > > protocol. It should have stayed in the

>> Sarcoidosis family

>> > > > > > > where

>> > > > > > > > > people

>> > > > > > > > > > > really do have excess vitamin D issues

>> and their only

>> > > > > > > treatment

>> > > > > > > > > option

>> > > > > > > > > > > is steroids. Partly. my publicising the

>> protocol was

>> > > > > > > naivete on my

>> > > > > > > > > > > part. I had no idea that people who had

>> negative

>> > > > > > > experiences or other

>> > > > > > > > > > > ideas would be banned from posting their

>> experiences. Even

>> > > > > > > taken

>> > > > > > > > > to court.

>> > > > > > > > > > > I really hope you read the previous posts

>> about the doc

>> > > > > > > who's facing

>> > > > > > > > > > > disciplinary action based on 12 patients

>> reporting her for

>> > > > > > > negligence

>> > > > > > > > > > > in regards to prescribing the Marshall

>> Protocol. Even more

>> > > > > > > > > > > importantly, I hope you read the Mark

>> London analysis

>> > > of the

>> > > > > > > > > protocol.

>> > > > > > > > > > > In my experience, he's always been very

>> thorough and his

>> > > > > > > analyses are

>> > > > > > > > > > > very well reasoned and supported with

>> science.

>> > > > > > > > > > > There are way too many leaps in reasoning

>> to promote the

>> > > > > > > protocol or

>> > > > > > > > > > > omesartan alone as a sure tool for

>> treating chronic

>> > > > > > > infection. If

>> > > > > > > > > > > anything, it's something that people

>> should approach very

>> > > > > > > cautiously,

>> > > > > > > > > > > and if they decide to experiment with it,

>> they should know

>> > > > > > > they are

>> > > > > > > > > > > doing it with a great deal of risk

>> because there's nothing

>> > > > > > > out there

>> > > > > > > > > > > yet that indicates it's a good long term

>> > > anti-inflammatory or

>> > > > > > > > > > > anti-microbial.

>> > > > > > > > > > > penny

>> > > > > > > > > > >

>> > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ---------

>> ---------

>> > > --------- -

>> > > > > > > > > > >

>> > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

>> > > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

>> > > > > > > > > > > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database:

>> 270.11.40/2039 -

>> > > > > > > Release Date:

>> > > > > > > > > 04/03/09 06:19:00

>> > > > > > > > > > >

>> > > > > > > > > >

>> > > > > > > > >

>> > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ---------

>> ---------

>> > > --------- -

>> > > > > > > > >

>> > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

>> > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

>> > > > > > > > > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database:

>> 270.11.40/2039 - Release

>> > > > > > > Date: 04/03/09 06:19:00

>> > > > > > > > >

>> > > > > > > >

>> > > > > > >

>> > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ---------

>> --------- --------- -

>> > > > > > >

>> > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

>> > > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

>> > > > > > > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.42/2042

>> - Release Date:

>> > > > > 04/05/09 10:54:00

>> > > > > > >

>> > > > > >

>> > > > >

>> > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------

>> --------- -

>> > > > >

>> > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

>> > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

>> > > > > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.42/2042 -

>> Release Date:

>> > > 04/05/09 10:54:00

>> > > > >

>> > > >

>> > >

>> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------

>> --------- -

>> > >

>> > > No virus found in this incoming message.

>> > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

>> > > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.47/2047 -

>> Release Date: 04/08/09 05:53:00

>> > >

>> >

>>

>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>

>> No virus found in this incoming message.

>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

>> Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.51/2052 - Release Date:

04/10/09 06:39:00

>>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.51/2052 - Release Date: 04/10/09

06:39:00

>

April 19, 2009

Interesting

thread ..here's a couple of conflicting reports .. Perhaps its a matter

of when

Vit D is useful ..there may well be a period with the chronically

infected that Vit D is impacting negatively

Vitamin D3 down-regulates monocyte TLR expression and triggers

hyporesponsiveness to pathogen-associated molecular patterns.

Sadeghi

K, Wessner

B, Laggner

U, Ploder

M, Tamandl

D, Friedl

J, Zügel

U, Steinmeyer

A, Pollak

A, Roth

E, Boltz-Nitulescu

G, Spittler

A.

Surgical Research Laboratories, Medical

University of Vienna, A-1090 Vienna, Austria.

Toll-like

receptors (TLR) represent an ancient front-line defence system that

enables the host organism to sense the presence of microbial components

within minutes. As inducers of inflammation, TLR act as important

triggers of distinct entities such as sepsis or autoimmune disease

exacerbation. We report here that vitamin D3

[1alpha,25-dihydroxycholecalciferol, 1,25(OH)(2)D3] suppresses the

expression of TLR2 and TLR4 protein and mRNA in human monocytes in a

time- and dose-dependent fashion. Despite 1,25(OH)(2)D3-induced

up-regulation of CD14, challenge of human monocytes with either LPS or

lipoteichoic acid resulted in impaired TNF-alpha and procoagulatory

tissue factor (CD142) production, emphasizing the critical role of TLR

in the induction of inflammation. Moreover, reduced TLR levels in

1,25(OH)(2)D3-treated phagocytes were accompanied by impaired

NF-kappaB/RelA translocation to the nucleus and by reduced p38 and

p42/44 (extracellular signal-regulated kinase 1/2) phosphorylation upon

TLR-ligand engagement. Both TLR down-regulation and CD14 up-regulation

were substantially inhibited by the vitamin D receptor (VDR) antagonist

ZK 159222, indicating that the immunomodulatory effect of 1,25(OH)(2)D3

on innate immunity receptors requires VDR transcription factor

activation. Our data provide strong evidence that 1,25(OH)(2)D3 primes

monocytes to respond less effectively to bacterial cell wall components

in a VDR-dependent mechanism, most likely due to decreased levels of

TLR2 and TLR4.

PMID: 16402404

Inflammation reduced in those with higher vitamin D

levels

In

light of a recent study published in the Archives of Internal Medicine which found vitamin D inadequacy

in 75 percent of Americans, University of Missouri College of

Environmental Sciences assistant professor A.

announced the finding of research conducted at the University's

Department of Nutritional Sciences which correlated low vitamin D

levels with an increased marker of inflammation. The study was

described in the July, 2008 issue of theJournal

of Inflammation.

The

study included 69 healthy women, aged 25 to 82, classified as being

high or low in vitamin D based on ultraviolet-B exposure. Blood samples

were analyzed for serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D, hormone levels, and

inflammation markers.

Not

surprisingly, mean serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D levels were significantly

greater in those with increased sun exposure compared with those in the

low D group. Dr , along with colleague E Hefferman, found

that the inflammatory marker tumor necrosis factor-alpha (TNF-alpha)

averaged 0.79 picograms per milliliter (pg/mL) in the high vitamin D

group and 1.22 pg/mL among those categorized as low in the vitamin.

Higher serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D levels were also correlated with lower

TNF-alpha levels. The relationship remained after adjusting the

analysis for other factors. In their discussion of the findings, the

authors write that although it is difficult to discern vitamin D's

mechanism, a previous study found that vitamin D down-regulated

TNF-alpha-associated genes.

The

study is the first to determine an inverse association between

TNF-alpha and vitamin D levels in a healthy population. The finding

could help explain the protective association found for vitamin D

against inflammatory diseases such as heart disease and rheumatoid

arthritis.

"The

findings reveal that low vitamin D levels negatively impact

inflammation and immune response, even in healthy women," Dr

commented. "Increased inflammation normally is found in people with

obesity or chronic diseases; a small decrease in vitamin D levels may

aggravate symptoms in people who are sick."

"To

improve vitamin D status and achieve its related health benefits, most

people should get at least 1000 IU of vitamin D per day," she noted.

"Only a few foods contain vitamin D naturally, such as fatty fish;

other sources are dietary supplements and vitamin-D-fortified foods,

including milk and orange juice."

"More

studies are needed to fully characterize the relationship between

vitamin D and TNF-alpha; but if proven effective, vitamin D therapy may

show promise as adjunct to anti-TNF therapy in inflammatory disease

states," the authors concluded.

kjfmsa wrote:

>

> Did you avoid sun and Vitamin D in food?

>

Yes, although not as fanatically as others. Cutting out vitamin D in

food was easy. I never supplemented, and ate limited seafood. I cut out

milk and eggs, but not food made with them. Avoiding sun was a lot

tougher. I had to avoid sunlight because I developed very strong

symptom flares with only moderate exposure. I still pushed exposure as

much as I could, basically ignoring the MP guidelines and using my own

reactions as a guide. I did not turn my house into a cave but had one

dark room for when things were bad.

My D levels dropped to unmeasurable levels over about 1 1/2 years. They

have since rebounded to normal levels. (Not the highly supplemented

"optimal" level of the Vitamin D Council, but normal human levels).

I don't know if reducing vitamin D level is really needed for the MP to

work or not. One thing I am convinced of is that many people would

benefit from reducing light into the eyes. Rather than vitamin D, I

believe this is due to inflammation, the eyes Renin-Angiotensin system

and the negative effects of AT1 stimulation in the brain.

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Re: Re: olmesartan - friend or foe

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