Re: High protein consumption and bone density

[Guest guest]

Roman:

Sounds like you've been reading vegan or dietician propaganda. The info on

Eskimos is not true--at least for Eskimos on their traditional diet. I just

get so sick of all of the nutritional B/S out there that gets parroted about

as fact. You should read my paper on High Protein Diets on my site and Sally

and 's paper on osteoporosis and beef on the Foundation's site in the

Myths and Truths section.

SCB

>From: " r_rom " <r_rom@...>

>Reply-

>

>Subject: High protein consumption and bone density

>Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 03:37:46 -0000

>

>I've read material in different sources (Dr. Byrnes's and Weston

>Price Foundation's) arguing that protein in whole foods doesn't cause

>bone loss... and believed it. But now I got two peices of information

>that don't fit here:

>

>1. I am quoting from some place: " Studies now show that high levels

>of protein — particularly animal protein — in the American diet drain

>calcium from the body. Observations of various populations worldwide

>show that societies with high protein consumption have a high

>incidence of osteoporosis. Eskimos, for example, eat large amounts of

>protein due to their heavy consumption of fish. Their diet is also

>extemely high in calcium, yet they suffer from high rates of

>osteoporosis. The amino acids released by protein in the body tend to

>deplete calcium from the bones. The calcium is then excreted in the

>urine. "

>

>Is what is said above about Eskimos correct?

>

>2. I've talked to a woman in her senior years, and she said that when

>she went on a high protein/low carb diet, she lost extra weight and

>her blood lipids normalized; however, her bone density decreased too.

>She said that she had tested before and after starting the diet.

>

>Roman

>

All the best,

Byrnes, PhD, RNCP

http://www.PowerHealth.net

_________________________________________________________________

Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

[Guest guest]

--- In @y..., " Dr. Byrnes " <daxx404@h...>

wrote:

> Roman:

>

> Sounds like you've been reading vegan or dietician propaganda. The

info on

> Eskimos is not true--at least for Eskimos on their traditional

diet. I just

> get so sick of all of the nutritional B/S out there that gets

parroted about

> as fact. You should read my paper on High Protein Diets on my site

and Sally

> and 's paper on osteoporosis and beef on the Foundation's site

in the

> Myths and Truths section.

>

> SCB

>

>

> >From: " r_rom " <r_rom@y...>

> >Reply- @y...

> > @y...

> >Subject: High protein consumption and bone

density

> >Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 03:37:46 -0000

> >

> >I've read material in different sources (Dr. Byrnes's and Weston

> >Price Foundation's) arguing that protein in whole foods doesn't

cause

> >bone loss... and believed it. But now I got two peices of

information

> >that don't fit here:

> >

> >1. I am quoting from some place: " Studies now show that high levels

> >of protein — particularly animal protein — in the American diet

drain

> >calcium from the body. Observations of various populations

worldwide

> >show that societies with high protein consumption have a high

> >incidence of osteoporosis. Eskimos, for example, eat large amounts

of

> >protein due to their heavy consumption of fish. Their diet is also

> >extemely high in calcium, yet they suffer from high rates of

> >osteoporosis. The amino acids released by protein in the body tend

to

> >deplete calcium from the bones. The calcium is then excreted in the

> >urine. "

> >

> >Is what is said above about Eskimos correct?

> >

> >2. I've talked to a woman in her senior years, and she said that

when

> >she went on a high protein/low carb diet, she lost extra weight and

> >her blood lipids normalized; however, her bone density decreased

too.

> >She said that she had tested before and after starting the diet.

> >

> >Roman

> >

>

>

>

>

> All the best,

>

> Byrnes, PhD, RNCP

> http://www.PowerHealth.net

>

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger:

http://messenger.msn.com

[Guest guest]

One thing that I'd like to bring up in this discussion is the

difference between raw meat and cooked meat in the diet and how it

affects digestion. Henry Bieler has some interesting points in his

book, Food is Your Best Medicine, concerning protein digestion. I'd

love to hear some feedback on this as I've experinced it to be true

in my own digestive system.

He writes:

" He (Stefansson) had previously learned from the Eskimos that their

good health depended upon a raw meat diet, including blood, liver,

and bone marrow, mainly from seal, walrus, and fish. At one time he

took a group of robust young men, mostly college students, into the

Arctic, provided them with a raw-meat diet, upon which they remained

stong, warm, and in good physical condition during the entire trip.

At first the young men found the raw meat diet nauseating and foreign

to their taste; during the early weeks they often vomited the food.

But eventually they became accustomed to it and ate with gusto,

suffering nither indigestion nor constipation. They discovered,

however, that cooking or adding salt to their meat caused violent

indigestion....

" One of the questions presented by Stefansson's experiments was: Why

do cooked meats cause indigestion, and if persisted in, disease? For

an answer, the chemistry of the urine was studied. It was

demonstrated that when meat was eaten in its natural, raw state, the

urine did not contain the putrefactive acids of protein indigestion.

This led to the observation and conclusion that the more protein was

cooked, the greater was the amount of putrefactive products in the

urine and even in the sweat and other body secretions. The colloid

chemistry term for raw protein is hydropholie colloid. Cooked

protein is a hydrophobe colloid. This means simply that the

molecules are arranged differently; in the hydrophobe colloid, into a

form not so easily assimilated by the human digestive organs. A

simple example is the differance between raw egg white and hard

boiled egg white. The first is soluble in water, non-putrefactive in

the intestines and behaves in a special was towards acids, bases, and

salts. Many major and minor maladies arise from the toxemia that

follows the ingestion of cooked proteins. "

" It is worth repeating again and agin that the more protein is heated

or cooked, the more it's colloid form is changed. Hydrophilic

colloids are converted into hydrophobic colloids. Man's primitive

jungle liver is equiped to handle hydrophilic colloids, the wast

products of which are easily neutralized byt the liver's storehouse

of sodium and eliminated in the bile as harmless complex-sodium

cholates....It is well established that to neutralize the

putrefaction products of well cooked protein indigestion, the liver

is robbed of its sodium faster that it can be replenished by the

diet, which in cooked-meat eaters is notoriously lacking in sodium-

containing foods (celery, cucumber, zucchini, etc..., not salt). As

the liver fails, the toxemia increases. "

So, it would seem possible that calcuim could also be used in

neutralizing the overcooked protein along with the sodium. I don't

know, but I wanted to bring this topic up, because I've found it much

harder to digest well cooked protein as opposed to more rare or raw

protein. I used to think my digestion was somehow weak, but now am

starting to think that cooking is the issue. I'd love to get

feedback on this issue, because I'm starting to think that this could

be where the confusion is....From what I've read, the primitive

cultures seemed to prefer the raw or less cooked meat, am I right?

Becky

PS. sorry for any typos

> I've read material in different sources (Dr. Byrnes's and Weston

> Price Foundation's) arguing that protein in whole foods doesn't

cause

> bone loss... and believed it. But now I got two peices of

information

> that don't fit here:

>

> 1. I am quoting from some place: " Studies now show that high levels

> of protein — particularly animal protein — in the American diet

drain

> calcium from the body. Observations of various populations

worldwide

> show that societies with high protein consumption have a high

> incidence of osteoporosis. Eskimos, for example, eat large amounts

of

> protein due to their heavy consumption of fish. Their diet is also

> extemely high in calcium, yet they suffer from high rates of

> osteoporosis. The amino acids released by protein in the body tend

to

> deplete calcium from the bones. The calcium is then excreted in the

> urine. "

>

> Is what is said above about Eskimos correct?

>

> 2. I've talked to a woman in her senior years, and she said that

when

> she went on a high protein/low carb diet, she lost extra weight and

> her blood lipids normalized; however, her bone density decreased

too.

> She said that she had tested before and after starting the diet.

>

> Roman

[Guest guest]

Dear Becky,

This raises an interesting observation--traditionally cooked meats have been

eaten in a stew made with calcium-rich broth or as a chop with a broth-based

reduction sauce, or just with a broth-based soup on the side (as in Asia)

What dietary wisdom we have here as the broth facilitates the digestion of

the cooked meat. Sally

[Guest guest]

> Dear Becky,

>

> This raises an interesting observation--traditionally cooked meats

have been

> eaten in a stew made with calcium-rich broth or as a chop with a

broth-based

> reduction sauce, or just with a broth-based soup on the side (as in

Asia)

> What dietary wisdom we have here as the broth facilitates the

digestion of

> the cooked meat. Sally

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Refrigerated eggs will keep 3 months or more. A number of years ago I read

an article that said most commercial eggs were already at least a month old.

I haven't yet found a way to peel a hard boiled egg that's only a day or two

old. So, it makes sense that eggs would be held before placing them on store

shelves.

[Guest guest]

givemeamomenttothink wrote:

>

> Also, how long do you recommend using eggs raw once you've got them

> home from the store? I have been making eggnog only the first day or

> two after I get the eggs home because I'm not sure how safe they are

> to eat raw beyond that. I'm sure they are already a bit " old " once I

> get them. Thanks.

>

> Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

> Robin

I find them safe for many weeks.

Roman

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[Guest guest]

At 10:31 PM 7/2/2002 -0700, you wrote:

> > Also, how long do you recommend using eggs raw once you've got them

> > home from the store? I have been making eggnog only the first day or

> > two after I get the eggs home because I'm not sure how safe they are

> > to eat raw beyond that. I'm sure they are already a bit " old " once I

> > get them. Thanks.

If in doubt, put them in a pan of water. If they sit on the bottom, they

are pretty

fresh. If they float a little, they are less fresh. If they float

completely, they

are really old (my book says to throw them out then, I've only had it happen

once though).

Eggs are *supposed* to be sterile inside: something like 1 in 10,000 MAY be

contaminated. But most of the salmonella poisoning seems to come from

the egg making contact with the shell while breaking the egg, then letting

the raw egg stand at room temp for some time. I figure the egg shell probably

*does* have salmonella on it (unless you run it under an ultraviolet light:

some

farms are doing that), so it's best to not let it set at room temp very long

after you break it.

And if you get just a few salmonella germs your body will likely handle

them just fine, and learn to be immune to them, or so goes the theory!

Anyway, in the old days eggs were kept at room temp for a month or

more. Some homesteaders do things like store them in salt boxes for

up to a year (at room temp).

Heidi

[Guest guest]

I buy mine farm fresh and store them outside my fridge and consume them within a

week or two. Never had a problem. Birds keep them warm for some time when they

sit on them, don't they?

Roman

BrenRuble@... wrote:

> Refrigerated eggs will keep 3 months or more. A number of years ago I read

> an article that said most commercial eggs were already at least a month old.

> I haven't yet found a way to peel a hard boiled egg that's only a day or two

> old. So, it makes sense that eggs would be held before placing them on store

> shelves.

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/3/02 1:19:07 AM Central Daylight Time, r_rom@...

writes:

> I buy mine farm fresh and store them outside my fridge and consume them

> within a

> week or two. Never had a problem. Birds keep them warm for some time when

> they

> sit on them, don't they?

>

> Roman

>

Sure do, and after 3 weeks of nice and warm they hatch a chicken.

Belinda

[Guest guest]

> > > Also, how long do you recommend using eggs raw once you've got

them

> > > home from the store? I have been making eggnog only the first

day or

> > > two after I get the eggs home because I'm not sure how safe they

are

> > > to eat raw beyond that. I'm sure they are already a bit " old "

once I

> > > get them. Thanks.

>

> If in doubt, put them in a pan of water. If they sit on the bottom,

they

> are pretty

> fresh. If they float a little, they are less fresh. If they float

> completely, they

> are really old (my book says to throw them out then, I've only had

it happen

> once though).

>

I think salt water is to be used for the above test and at a certain

temp also. I'm not too sure of the accuracy of that test . I suppose

it indicates how large the air sac is within the egg. An " older " egg

has a very thin, nearly watery, thin white. (The raw egg has a thick

and thin white and when the egg is freshest the thin (and thick

too)white spreads very little (maybe 3-4 inches) making a nice looking

fried egg.) Dennis

<<<<><><><><<><clipped by Dennis>>>>>>>>>>>>

> Heidi

[Guest guest]

> > > Also, how long do you recommend using eggs raw once you've got

them

> > > home from the store?

> >?>???>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<><><><><Clippped by Dennis>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>I figure that if eggs are so full of pathogens then, why do

restaurants/grill cooks get to take finished scrambled/cooked eggs off

the grill with the same flipper they just stirred/flipped the raw eggs

with. At what temp is all the pathogens destroyed? Probably

sterilization temp! Dennis

>

Eggs are *supposed* to be sterile inside: something like 1 in 10,000

MAY be

> contaminated. But most of the salmonella poisoning seems to come

from

> the egg making contact with the shell while breaking the egg, then

letting

> the raw egg stand at room temp for some time. I figure the egg shell

probably

> *does* have salmonella on it (unless you run it under an ultraviolet

light:

> some

> farms are doing that), so it's best to not let it set at room temp

very long

> after you break it.

>

> And if you get just a few salmonella germs your body will likely

handle

> them just fine, and learn to be immune to them, or so goes the

theory!

>

> Anyway, in the old days eggs were kept at room temp for a month or

> more. Some homesteaders do things like store them in salt boxes for

> up to a year (at room temp).

>

>

> Heidi

[Guest guest]

---Roman I been wondering about that too. All spring I've been trying

to get the egg gatherers at our house to gather the eggs several times

daily since many of the hens want to sit and hatch them. And now the

daily high ambient temp is around 100F so I again thought, " Gather

those eggs more often and get them cooled " . BUT now I'm wondering

(stewing), " What keeps those eggs from deteriorating inside the hen at

104F or so degrees " ? What DA you think? Dennis

In @y..., Roman <r_rom@y...> wrote:

> I buy mine farm fresh and store them outside my fridge and consume

them within a

> week or two. Never had a problem. Birds keep them warm for some time

when they

> sit on them, don't they?

>

> Roman

>

>

> BrenRuble@a... wrote:

>

> > Refrigerated eggs will keep 3 months or more. A number of years

ago I read

> > an article that said most commercial eggs were already at least a

month old.

> > I haven't yet found a way to peel a hard boiled egg that's only a

day or two

> > old. So, it makes sense that eggs would be held before placing

them on store

> > shelves.

>

> -------------------------------------------

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> Unlimited Long Distance only $29.95/ month!

> Sign Up Today! www.netzerolongdistance.com

[Guest guest]

At 10:35 PM 7/3/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>I think salt water is to be used for the above test and at a certain

>temp also. I'm not too sure of the accuracy of that test . I suppose

>it indicates how large the air sac is within the egg. An " older " egg

>has a very thin, nearly watery, thin white. (The raw egg has a thick

>and thin white and when the egg is freshest the thin (and thick

>too)white spreads very little (maybe 3-4 inches) making a nice looking

>fried egg.) Dennis

Sounds about right. All my homegrown eggs sink -- I tried the test

with some storebought eggs that were in the fridge about 4 months and

a few of them floated. None of them were " rotten " though. My homegrown

eggs have a really thick yolk too, sticks up like a baseball. The book

I read that in (The Country Encyclopedia) uses fresh water.

Heidi

[Guest guest]

At 10:48 PM 7/3/2002 +0000, you wrote:

> >>>>>>>>I figure that if eggs are so full of pathogens then, why do

>restaurants/grill cooks get to take finished scrambled/cooked eggs off

>the grill with the same flipper they just stirred/flipped the raw eggs

>with. At what temp is all the pathogens destroyed? Probably

>sterilization temp! Dennis

The camp that believes you need to " kill all the possible germs

in an egg " also says you should cook the yolk all the

way -- no more nice sunny side up fried eggs. Technically

any egg that isn't really done HARD could have pathogens.

But hard-cooked eggs? Yecch.

I don't think an egg that looks and smells good has

a bunch of pathogens that are going to make you sick.

In all likelihood it is totally sterile.

BUT, if you crack a raw egg into some Ceasar dressing or non-cooked

mayo and let it set out at room temperature for a few hours,

there IS a likelihood of getting ill from it, which is where I

think eggs get their bad rap. The egg picks up germs from

the shell, then they sit and multiply at room temp until

they get to the point they could hurt someone.

Moral of the story? Don't let stuff sit out at room temp! Unless

it is fermenting with bacteria you know and love or has acid or

salt in it. I personally don't think the age of the egg has much

to do with it. It's just that sterile eggs are a great growing medium

for the salmonella that is on their shells, because there are no

lacto or other good bacteria to compete, or salt or acid to

slow them down. So once you crack an egg, use it soon.

When I have something that people are going to be eating

cold, I try to put something fermented in it: like chopped

kimchi or kefir whey, or some vinegar (things like dips

that sit out work really well with strained kefir). I also put

kefir in smoothies. That way the 'good' bacteria are likely

to win out over the bad ones.

Heidi

[Guest guest]

--- Ditto. Dennis

In @y..., Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@t...> wrote:

> At 10:48 PM 7/3/2002 +0000, you wrote:

> > >>>>>>>>I figure that if eggs are so full of pathogens then, why

do

> >restaurants/grill cooks get to take finished scrambled/cooked eggs

off

> >the grill with the same flipper they just stirred/flipped the raw

eggs

> >with. At what temp is all the pathogens destroyed? Probably

> >sterilization temp! Dennis

>

> The camp that believes you need to " kill all the possible germs

> in an egg " also says you should cook the yolk all the

> way -- no more nice sunny side up fried eggs. Technically

> any egg that isn't really done HARD could have pathogens.

> But hard-cooked eggs? Yecch.

>

> I don't think an egg that looks and smells good has

> a bunch of pathogens that are going to make you sick.

> In all likelihood it is totally sterile.

>

> BUT, if you crack a raw egg into some Ceasar dressing or non-cooked

> mayo and let it set out at room temperature for a few hours,

> there IS a likelihood of getting ill from it, which is where I

> think eggs get their bad rap. The egg picks up germs from

> the shell, then they sit and multiply at room temp until

> they get to the point they could hurt someone.

>

> Moral of the story? Don't let stuff sit out at room temp! Unless

> it is fermenting with bacteria you know and love or has acid or

> salt in it. I personally don't think the age of the egg has much

> to do with it. It's just that sterile eggs are a great growing

medium

> for the salmonella that is on their shells, because there are no

> lacto or other good bacteria to compete, or salt or acid to

> slow them down. So once you crack an egg, use it soon.

>

> When I have something that people are going to be eating

> cold, I try to put something fermented in it: like chopped

> kimchi or kefir whey, or some vinegar (things like dips

> that sit out work really well with strained kefir). I also put

> kefir in smoothies. That way the 'good' bacteria are likely

> to win out over the bad ones.

>

>

>

> Heidi