Guest guest Posted October 15, 2004 Report Share Posted October 15, 2004 Just got involved in an odor case where some stupid environmental consultant told a park district to install a rubber floor over asbestos tile so that the park district would not have do to asbestos abatement. Needless to say, it was an older part district with limited ventilation in the gym. The net effect was the gym now has a " rubber " odor and the park district employees think it is causing health problems. My experience is that rubber floor off gas for years. Anyone have experience that the off gases can be accelerated or reduced with some coating.? BOB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2004 Report Share Posted October 15, 2004 Inspect under the floor, Have seen many dead mice, spilled chemicals, food etc. We had a school where we had to remove the complete floor, thoroughly clean the concrete and replace the floor. Then odor then went away. Years of deposits of food, water, and dirt - had a level of bacteria that were growing. BOB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 Hello everybody. I would appreciate any ideas you might have for an investigation of an odor problem. Here are a few things I know from talking to the client (who is not an idiot and has done quite a bit of sleuthing already): Problem is in a video conference room in the interior of a downtown high rise office building, odor is noticeable at the door to the room. "Chemical-ly" odor noted in this room only. No plumbing in or around the room, no known moisture issues at all. No HVAC coils serving the room (VAV system) other than main air handler for entire floor. duct system under carpet (formerly offices), but no problems elsewhere in the system. No health complaints, only odor complaints. Food/drink sometimes consumed in room during conferences. No visible staining on carpet. Carpet is about 3 years old. Owner has requested sampling of the carpet. I have not seen the site yet. I am thinking of vacuum sampling the carpet for microbials, along with comparison area sampling, but I am really grasping at straws. I plan to test the walls for moisture also, as it is a quick and easy check with a non-intrusive meter, and of course a visual look-see. Would MVOC sampling be worthwhile for this mystery odor problem? Without identifying a viable moisture source I am reluctant to spend the client's money on a lot of microbial sampling, but have no other leads to follow right now... D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS Liesch Associates, Inc. Steve, Before you spend all that money on microbial tests, get a good UV blacklight and see if there are hidden stains(spots) in the carpet or chair fabrics which may be causing the odor problem. If you find something with the light, give it the sniff test. ph K. SchulmanFounder/CEOGold Bond Building Services, Inc. andMobility Solutions, Llc.Corporate Offices:805 Cross St. Suite 4Lakewood, NJ 08701-4099Gold Bond Main Phone: Mobility Solutions Main Phone: Toll Free: 1-877-811-REST (7378)Fax: E-Mail: JSchul6938@... info@...http://www.restassured.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 I suspect that such a conference room my be provided with supplemental air conditioning not necessarily connected to the primary air supply. Alternately, the VAV may involve fan powered or induction units. These would take secondary air from the concealed space plenum. I would use a smoke tube and a good sense of smell to determine air flow direction both when the systems are calling and when not calling. I would also check FPU coils and condensate lines. Also, check exterior for façade changes (common leakage source) or balconies and drain lines. Assure drain lines and any water supply-drain lines in the concealed spaces are properly insulated. I Before beginning, get access to the “as built” mechanical drawings. Paid special heed to wet column locations in relation to air drift in the concealed space. Dick Cussen PE, CIH Odor problem Hello everybody. I would appreciate any ideas you might have for an investigation of an odor problem. Here are a few things I know from talking to the client (who is not an idiot and has done quite a bit of sleuthing already): · Problem is in a video conference room in the interior of a downtown high rise office building, odor is noticeable at the door to the room. · " Chemical-ly " odor noted in this room only. · No plumbing in or around the room, no known moisture issues at all. · No HVAC coils serving the room (VAV system) other than main air handler for entire floor. · duct system under carpet (formerly offices), but no problems elsewhere in the system. · No health complaints, only odor complaints. · Food/drink sometimes consumed in room during conferences. · No visible staining on carpet. · Carpet is about 3 years old. Owner has requested sampling of the carpet. I have not seen the site yet. I am thinking of vacuum sampling the carpet for microbials, along with comparison area sampling, but I am really grasping at straws. I plan to test the walls for moisture also, as it is a quick and easy check with a non-intrusive meter, and of course a visual look-see. Would MVOC sampling be worthwhile for this mystery odor problem? Without identifying a viable moisture source I am reluctant to spend the client's money on a lot of microbial sampling, but have no other leads to follow right now... D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS Liesch Associates, Inc. FAIR USE NOTICE: This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. E-MAIL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 I suspect that such a conference room my be provided with supplemental air conditioning not necessarily connected to the primary air supply. Alternately, the VAV may involve fan powered or induction units. These would take secondary air from the concealed space plenum. I would use a smoke tube and a good sense of smell to determine air flow direction both when the systems are calling and when not calling. I would also check FPU coils and condensate lines. Also, check exterior for façade changes (common leakage source) or balconies and drain lines. Assure drain lines and any water supply-drain lines in the concealed spaces are properly insulated. I Before beginning, get access to the “as built” mechanical drawings. Paid special heed to wet column locations in relation to air drift in the concealed space. Dick Cussen PE, CIH Odor problem Hello everybody. I would appreciate any ideas you might have for an investigation of an odor problem. Here are a few things I know from talking to the client (who is not an idiot and has done quite a bit of sleuthing already): · Problem is in a video conference room in the interior of a downtown high rise office building, odor is noticeable at the door to the room. · " Chemical-ly " odor noted in this room only. · No plumbing in or around the room, no known moisture issues at all. · No HVAC coils serving the room (VAV system) other than main air handler for entire floor. · duct system under carpet (formerly offices), but no problems elsewhere in the system. · No health complaints, only odor complaints. · Food/drink sometimes consumed in room during conferences. · No visible staining on carpet. · Carpet is about 3 years old. Owner has requested sampling of the carpet. I have not seen the site yet. I am thinking of vacuum sampling the carpet for microbials, along with comparison area sampling, but I am really grasping at straws. I plan to test the walls for moisture also, as it is a quick and easy check with a non-intrusive meter, and of course a visual look-see. Would MVOC sampling be worthwhile for this mystery odor problem? Without identifying a viable moisture source I am reluctant to spend the client's money on a lot of microbial sampling, but have no other leads to follow right now... D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS Liesch Associates, Inc. FAIR USE NOTICE: This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. E-MAIL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 I suggest the following to see if you can isolate the source: 1) Sniff every surface, including paint on walls, electrical/electronic equipment (look for hot surfaces and cooling air ports), light fixtures in room interior (e.g. any floor-standing torchieres?) and furniture. 2) Set up blower door or fans to depressurize the room relative to rest of building, and sniff at floor/wall joints, electric outlets & switches, surface-mount and recessed light fixtures, wall/ceiling and ceiling tile joints, and any other penetrations. 3) You say there is a common air handler with other rooms, but check ductwork/diffusers serving this room. 4) Look for correlation to hour of day and room usage. If the room can be closed and HVAC shut down overnight, does the odor get better or worse? What if all lighting & electrical equipment is shut down? Based on interior location, no known moisture source, " chemical " odor, and use as a video conference room, my wild guess is overheating electrical or electronic components. Or, perhaps new furniture, heated by lights or equipment? Dan Cautley Cautley Engineering Washington, DC dwcautley@... > Hello everybody. I would appreciate any ideas you might have for an > investigation of an odor problem. Here are a few things I know from talking > to the client (who is not an idiot and has done quite a bit of sleuthing > already): > > * Problem is in a video conference room in the interior of a downtown > high rise office building, odor is noticeable at the door to the room. > * " Chemical-ly " odor noted in this room only. > * No plumbing in or around the room, no known moisture issues at all. > * No HVAC coils serving the room (VAV system) other than main air > handler for entire floor. > * duct system under carpet (formerly offices), but no problems > elsewhere in the system. > * No health complaints, only odor complaints. > * Food/drink sometimes consumed in room during conferences. > * No visible staining on carpet. > * Carpet is about 3 years old. > > Owner has requested sampling of the carpet. I have not seen the site yet. I > am thinking of vacuum sampling the carpet for microbials, along with > comparison area sampling, but I am really grasping at straws. I plan to test > the walls for moisture also, as it is a quick and easy check with a > non-intrusive meter, and of course a visual look-see. > > Would MVOC sampling be worthwhile for this mystery odor problem? Without > identifying a viable moisture source I am reluctant to spend the client's > money on a lot of microbial sampling, but have no other leads to follow > right now... > > D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS > Liesch Associates, Inc. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2004 Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 Bob, I have had the same experience with this rubber smell persisting for months, though you could try treatment with ozone, one of the few outstanding uses for the gas. The offending chemical may be a mercaptan and these are readily oxidized by ozone. I got rid of skunk odor (butenyl mercaptan) in my garage in minutes with my powerful unit, and I helped a client get rid of rubber tire odor in a car (after wrapping the tire in foil!). Of course, the ozone embrittles the rubber surface. Jeff May <www.mayindoorair.com> Bob s wrote: > Just got involved in an odor case where some stupid environmental > consultant told a park district to install a rubber floor over asbestos > tile so that the park district would not have do to asbestos abatement. > > Needless to say, it was an older part district with limited ventilation > in the gym. The net effect was the gym now has a " rubber " odor and the > park district employees think it is causing health problems. > > My experience is that rubber floor off gas for years. > > Anyone have experience that the off gases can be accelerated or reduced > with some coating.? > > BOB > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 Re: Odor problem In a message dated 10/15/2004 4:00:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, steve.carlson@... writes: Hello everybody. I would appreciate any ideas you might have for an investigation of an odor problem. Here are a few things I know from talking to the client (who is not an idiot and has done quite a bit of sleuthing already): · Problem is in a video conference room in the interior of a downtown high rise office building, odor is noticeable at the door to the room. · " Chemical-ly " odor noted in this room only. · No plumbing in or around the room, no known moisture issues at all. · No HVAC coils serving the room (VAV system) other than main air handler for entire floor. · duct system under carpet (formerly offices), but no problems elsewhere in the system. · No health complaints, only odor complaints. · Food/drink sometimes consumed in room during conferences. · No visible staining on carpet. · Carpet is about 3 years old. Owner has requested sampling of the carpet. I have not seen the site yet. I am thinking of vacuum sampling the carpet for microbials, along with comparison area sampling, but I am really grasping at straws. I plan to test the walls for moisture also, as it is a quick and easy check with a non-intrusive meter, and of course a visual look-see. Would MVOC sampling be worthwhile for this mystery odor problem? Without identifying a viable moisture source I am reluctant to spend the client's money on a lot of microbial sampling, but have no other leads to follow right now... D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS Liesch Associates, Inc. Steve, Before you spend all that money on microbial tests, get a good UV blacklight and see if there are hidden stains(spots) in the carpet or chair fabrics which may be causing the odor problem. If you find something with the light, give it the sniff test. ph K. Schulman Founder/CEO Gold Bond Building Services, Inc. and Mobility Solutions, Llc. Corporate Offices: 805 Cross St. Suite 4 Lakewood, NJ 08701-4099 Gold Bond Main Phone: Mobility Solutions Main Phone: Toll Free: 1-877-811-REST (7378) Fax: E-Mail: JSchul6938@... info@... http://www.restassured.com/ * I like that idea, it's worth a shot. I will look into it. Thanks, ph. Steve Carlson Liesch Associates, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 I would use caution with any type of ozone generation in an indoor space. Ozone is an EPA criteria pollutant and a known lung irritant. Such an application in an occupied indoor space could be a bad idea. D. Dunbar, EI Project Manager/Engineer jdunbar@... Environmental Quality Managment, Inc. 3325 Durham-Chapel Hill Boulevard, Suite 250 Durham, North Carolina 27707 FAX www.eqm.com Re: Odor problem Bob, I have had the same experience with this rubber smell persisting for months, though you could try treatment with ozone, one of the few outstanding uses for the gas. The offending chemical may be a mercaptan and these are readily oxidized by ozone. I got rid of skunk odor (butenyl mercaptan) in my garage in minutes with my powerful unit, and I helped a client get rid of rubber tire odor in a car (after wrapping the tire in foil!). Of course, the ozone embrittles the rubber surface. Jeff May <www.mayindoorair.com> Bob s wrote: > Just got involved in an odor case where some stupid environmental > consultant told a park district to install a rubber floor over asbestos > tile so that the park district would not have do to asbestos abatement. > > Needless to say, it was an older part district with limited ventilation > in the gym. The net effect was the gym now has a " rubber " odor and the > park district employees think it is causing health problems. > > My experience is that rubber floor off gas for years. > > Anyone have experience that the off gases can be accelerated or reduced > with some coating.? > > BOB > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 , Good advice, indeed. Jeff is a long-time participant in this forum and a very well respected member of the IAQ community. As such, I suspect he assumed everyone would understand that he was not recommending that the space be occupied during the use of an ozone generator. If the ozone "embrittles the rubber surface", you are quite correct that human exposure would be a bad idea. Curtis Redington, RS Environmental Quality Specialist City of Wichita Dept. of Environmental Health -----Original Message-----From: Josh Dunbar Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 2:10 PMTo: iequality Subject: RE: Odor problem I would use caution with any type of ozone generation in an indoor space. Ozone is an EPA criteria pollutant and a known lung irritant. Such an application in an occupied indoor space could be a bad idea. D. Dunbar, EI Project Manager/Engineer jdunbar@... Environmental Quality Managment, Inc. 3325 Durham-Chapel Hill Boulevard, Suite 250 Durham, North Carolina 27707 FAX www.eqm.com -----Original Message-----From: Jeff May Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 3:59 PMTo: iequality Subject: Re: Odor problem Bob,I have had the same experience with this rubber smell persisting for months, though you could try treatment with ozone, one of the few outstanding uses for the gas.The offending chemical may be a mercaptan and these are readily oxidized by ozone. I got rid of skunk odor (butenyl mercaptan) in my garage in minutes with my powerful unit, and I helped a client get rid of rubber tire odor in a car (after wrapping the tire in foil!). Of course, the ozone embrittles the rubber surface.Jeff May<www.mayindoorair.com>Bob s wrote:> Just got involved in an odor case where some stupid environmental> consultant told a park district to install a rubber floor over asbestos> tile so that the park district would not have do to asbestos abatement.>> Needless to say, it was an older part district with limited ventilation> in the gym. The net effect was the gym now has a "rubber" odor and the> park district employees think it is causing health problems.>> My experience is that rubber floor off gas for years.>> Anyone have experience that the off gases can be accelerated or reduced> with some coating.?>> BOB>>> FAIR USE NOTICE:>> This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 , Good advice, indeed. Jeff is a long-time participant in this forum and a very well respected member of the IAQ community. As such, I suspect he assumed everyone would understand that he was not recommending that the space be occupied during the use of an ozone generator. If the ozone "embrittles the rubber surface", you are quite correct that human exposure would be a bad idea. Curtis Redington, RS Environmental Quality Specialist City of Wichita Dept. of Environmental Health -----Original Message-----From: Josh Dunbar Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 2:10 PMTo: iequality Subject: RE: Odor problem I would use caution with any type of ozone generation in an indoor space. Ozone is an EPA criteria pollutant and a known lung irritant. Such an application in an occupied indoor space could be a bad idea. D. Dunbar, EI Project Manager/Engineer jdunbar@... Environmental Quality Managment, Inc. 3325 Durham-Chapel Hill Boulevard, Suite 250 Durham, North Carolina 27707 FAX www.eqm.com -----Original Message-----From: Jeff May Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 3:59 PMTo: iequality Subject: Re: Odor problem Bob,I have had the same experience with this rubber smell persisting for months, though you could try treatment with ozone, one of the few outstanding uses for the gas.The offending chemical may be a mercaptan and these are readily oxidized by ozone. I got rid of skunk odor (butenyl mercaptan) in my garage in minutes with my powerful unit, and I helped a client get rid of rubber tire odor in a car (after wrapping the tire in foil!). Of course, the ozone embrittles the rubber surface.Jeff May<www.mayindoorair.com>Bob s wrote:> Just got involved in an odor case where some stupid environmental> consultant told a park district to install a rubber floor over asbestos> tile so that the park district would not have do to asbestos abatement.>> Needless to say, it was an older part district with limited ventilation> in the gym. The net effect was the gym now has a "rubber" odor and the> park district employees think it is causing health problems.>> My experience is that rubber floor off gas for years.>> Anyone have experience that the off gases can be accelerated or reduced> with some coating.?>> BOB>>> FAIR USE NOTICE:>> This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 One anecdotal story I heard was that the seals in the double-pane windows in a home had failed due to prolonged ozonation to "kill mold" and the windows had to be replaced. Steve Temes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Please be aware of some of the hazards of using ozone in furnished buildings, even if occupied: 1 ozone will attack many plastics, degrading their surfaces and possibly initiating autocatalytic ongoing self destruction, even after the ozone source has bee turned off; 2 ozone will damage plants left behind when the building was unoccupied (plants are living things too); 3 too little time and too little ozone can result in the oxidization of some VOC to much more toxic, shorter-chain VOC (partly-combusted hydrocarbons). While Ozone can be useful sometimes it is 'dangerous' other items, and you may not know which is which beforehand. Be very, very careful and maybe you can avoid regretting going this route. The suppliers of ozone producing equipment have not always been forthcoming with both the up and down sides of using that equipment (if they know/understand). Jim H. White SSAL Odor problem We are experimenting with an ozone generator for odor control using extreme caution (unoccupied times, ventilation, pre-occupancy testing, etc). It does provide some relief and is one alternative in our arsenal for IAQ complaints. It is certainly not meant for all occasions but with adequate precautions can be a useful tool. . W. s, CIH, CSP Brookhaven National Laboratory PO Box 5000 Building 120 Upton, NY 11973 phone FAX jpeters@... FAIR USE NOTICE:This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Please be aware of some of the hazards of using ozone in furnished buildings, even if occupied: 1 ozone will attack many plastics, degrading their surfaces and possibly initiating autocatalytic ongoing self destruction, even after the ozone source has bee turned off; 2 ozone will damage plants left behind when the building was unoccupied (plants are living things too); 3 too little time and too little ozone can result in the oxidization of some VOC to much more toxic, shorter-chain VOC (partly-combusted hydrocarbons). While Ozone can be useful sometimes it is 'dangerous' other items, and you may not know which is which beforehand. Be very, very careful and maybe you can avoid regretting going this route. The suppliers of ozone producing equipment have not always been forthcoming with both the up and down sides of using that equipment (if they know/understand). Jim H. White SSAL Odor problem We are experimenting with an ozone generator for odor control using extreme caution (unoccupied times, ventilation, pre-occupancy testing, etc). It does provide some relief and is one alternative in our arsenal for IAQ complaints. It is certainly not meant for all occasions but with adequate precautions can be a useful tool. . W. s, CIH, CSP Brookhaven National Laboratory PO Box 5000 Building 120 Upton, NY 11973 phone FAX jpeters@... FAIR USE NOTICE:This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Nonhuman exposure can be a problem as well. A client of mine had a contractor that used ozone to rid a small building of odors following a storm/water damage episode. Unfortunately, the concentration was sufficient enough to kill several nesting squirrels and other rodents that had taken up residence in various nooks and crannies. The resulting odor problem was far worse than the one with which they started! Dean W. Myers, CIH, CSP, ARM Vice President Marsh Risk Consulting 1255 23rd St., NW Suite 400 Washington, DC 20037 direct facsimile credington@wichit a.gov@Internet To 10/19/2004 10:38 iequality @Internet AM cc Subject Please respond to RE: Odor problem iequality@yahoogr oups.com@Internet , Good advice, indeed. Jeff is a long-time participant in this forum and a very well respected member of the IAQ community. As such, I suspect he assumed everyone would understand that he was not recommending that the space be occupied during the use of an ozone generator. If the ozone " embrittles the rubber surface " , you are quite correct that human exposure would be a bad idea. Curtis Redington, RS Environmental Quality Specialist City of Wichita Dept. of Environmental Health Re: Odor problem Bob, I have had the same experience with this rubber smell persisting for months, though you could try treatment with ozone, one of the few outstanding uses for the gas. The offending chemical may be a mercaptan and these are readily oxidized by ozone. I got rid of skunk odor (butenyl mercaptan) in my garage in minutes with my powerful unit, and I helped a client get rid of rubber tire odor in a car (after wrapping the tire in foil!). Of course, the ozone embrittles the rubber surface. Jeff May <www.mayindoorair.com> Bob s wrote: > Just got involved in an odor case where some stupid environmental > consultant told a park district to install a rubber floor over asbestos > tile so that the park district would not have do to asbestos abatement. > > Needless to say, it was an older part district with limited ventilation > in the gym. The net effect was the gym now has a " rubber " odor and the > park district employees think it is causing health problems. > > My experience is that rubber floor off gas for years. > > Anyone have experience that the off gases can be accelerated or reduced > with some coating.? > > BOB > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. <http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml.> If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Nonhuman exposure can be a problem as well. A client of mine had a contractor that used ozone to rid a small building of odors following a storm/water damage episode. Unfortunately, the concentration was sufficient enough to kill several nesting squirrels and other rodents that had taken up residence in various nooks and crannies. The resulting odor problem was far worse than the one with which they started! Dean W. Myers, CIH, CSP, ARM Vice President Marsh Risk Consulting 1255 23rd St., NW Suite 400 Washington, DC 20037 direct facsimile credington@wichit a.gov@Internet To 10/19/2004 10:38 iequality @Internet AM cc Subject Please respond to RE: Odor problem iequality@yahoogr oups.com@Internet , Good advice, indeed. Jeff is a long-time participant in this forum and a very well respected member of the IAQ community. As such, I suspect he assumed everyone would understand that he was not recommending that the space be occupied during the use of an ozone generator. If the ozone " embrittles the rubber surface " , you are quite correct that human exposure would be a bad idea. Curtis Redington, RS Environmental Quality Specialist City of Wichita Dept. of Environmental Health Re: Odor problem Bob, I have had the same experience with this rubber smell persisting for months, though you could try treatment with ozone, one of the few outstanding uses for the gas. The offending chemical may be a mercaptan and these are readily oxidized by ozone. I got rid of skunk odor (butenyl mercaptan) in my garage in minutes with my powerful unit, and I helped a client get rid of rubber tire odor in a car (after wrapping the tire in foil!). Of course, the ozone embrittles the rubber surface. Jeff May <www.mayindoorair.com> Bob s wrote: > Just got involved in an odor case where some stupid environmental > consultant told a park district to install a rubber floor over asbestos > tile so that the park district would not have do to asbestos abatement. > > Needless to say, it was an older part district with limited ventilation > in the gym. The net effect was the gym now has a " rubber " odor and the > park district employees think it is causing health problems. > > My experience is that rubber floor off gas for years. > > Anyone have experience that the off gases can be accelerated or reduced > with some coating.? > > BOB > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. <http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml.> If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 I was told that ozone generators do nothing to get rid of an odor, but instead interfere with your nose's ability to smell.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Ozone in the stratosphere is beneficial. Ozone found anywhere else is a hazard. http://www.epa.gov/air/urbanair/ozone/hlth.html -Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Ceratogyrus, The fallacy of this argument is easy enough to see when considering that ozone generators should not be used in an occupied space. However, for those people who chose to disregard over a hundred years of knowledge on the subject and intentionly produce ozone in the air they are breathing, their noses do quickly become fatigued to the odor of ozone. In simple terms, ozone is kind of like bleach - both are essentially oxidizers. Like bleach does not discriminate between a grass stain and the fabric it is on, ozone reacts with most everything it comes in contact with. Since ozone is a gas, it reacts with basically everything in contact with the air. Particularly effective at breaking apart unsaturated molecules (double or triple bond), ozone DOES change the molecule and hence the odor. The change is not always for the better, however. Sometimes, the smaller molecules formed during this " destructive " process are potentially a greater problem/hazard than the original. This has been something of a concern with using ozone to " treat " smoke odors after a fire. As with medications or many other things we could consider in our lives, the question becomes " do the benefits outweigh the negatives? " There is clear consensus that ozone generators should not be used in occupied spaces (regardless of the output concentration). Less clear is just when ozone may be the " best " solution to treating a particular problem while the space is unoccupied. Curtis Redington, RS Environmental Quality Specialist City of Wichita Dept. of Environmental Health Re: Odor problem I was told that ozone generators do nothing to get rid of an odor, but instead interfere with your nose's ability to smell.... FAIR USE NOTICE: This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 I have a lot of personal experience with this. We used to bring dozens of bags of smoke-damaged clothing into a closed chamber and ozone the clothing overnight. When put into the chamber the clothes were completely black and reeked of smoke odor. By morning they were still black, but the odor was completely gone. You could bury your face in the clothing and not detect any trace of smoke odor. The effect you mention may exist, but it would disappear as quickly as the ozone itself does once the generator shuts down, in hours if not minutes. The deodorizing effects of ozonation are permanent, on those items and odors for which it is effective. Much more permanent than most " deodorizating " chemicals, which often wear off. None of the above is intended to imply that ozone is the answer to all odor problems, or that it won't create serious problems of its own when misused. Tim Toburen Re: Odor problem > > > > > I was told that ozone generators do nothing to get rid of an odor, > but instead interfere with your nose's ability to smell.... > > > > > > > > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 An update regarding the conference room odor problem...it is quite a puzzler. I visited the site, and was hit with a noticeable, though not overpowering, musty odor a few feet from the conference room door. Smelled like your basic musty mold smell to me. Surrounding cubical areas and ceiling plenum areas smell normal. Not the slightest tick from the moisture meter on walls of the room. In fact, the only "source" of moisture is spilled coffee or the spritzer bottle for cleaning the whiteboards. As noted below in my first message, no plumbing or exterior walls anywhere close to this room. The only unexplored possibility is the electrical ducts under the floor, which is abandoned. However, this duct is under all the floors and no problem elsewhere or in adjacent areas. Until the carpet is removed I cannot access this ducting. Sporetrap sampling showed very low numbers in the conference room, conference room supply register, and adjacent cubical areas, so nothing to go on there. The other very interesting point is that two other conference rooms in the building are beginning to exhibit this odor too. We are working to identify any commonality between these rooms, which are on different HVAC zones. I really appreciate your ideas from my first message; if any of this rings a bell with you guys, please let me know! D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS Liesch Associates, Inc. Odor problem Hello everybody. I would appreciate any ideas you might have for an investigation of an odor problem. Here are a few things I know from talking to the client (who is not an idiot and has done quite a bit of sleuthing already): · Problem is in a video conference room in the interior of a downtown high rise office building, odor is noticeable at the door to the room. · " Chemical-ly " odor noted in this room only. · No plumbing in or around the room, no known moisture issues at all. · No HVAC coils serving the room (VAV system) other than main air handler for entire floor. · duct system under carpet (formerly offices), but no problems elsewhere in the system. · No health complaints, only odor complaints. · Food/drink sometimes consumed in room during conferences. · No visible staining on carpet. · Carpet is about 3 years old. Owner has requested sampling of the carpet. I have not seen the site yet. I am thinking of vacuum sampling the carpet for microbials, along with comparison area sampling, but I am really grasping at straws. I plan to test the walls for moisture also, as it is a quick and easy check with a non-intrusive meter, and of course a visual look-see. Would MVOC sampling be worthwhile for this mystery odor problem? Without identifying a viable moisture source I am reluctant to spend the client's money on a lot of microbial sampling, but have no other leads to follow right now... D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS Liesch Associates, Inc. E-MAIL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Steve, Sniff any plastic. Some Apple computers have had a strong musty smell (possibly from the unreacted 8-carbon alcohol in plasticizer). Check other plastics also, even in light fixtures. Jeff May May Indoor Air Investigations LLC Cambridge, MA Carlson wrote: An update regarding the conference room odor problem...it is quite a puzzler. I visited the site, and was hit with a noticeable, though not overpowering, musty odor a few feet from the conference room door. Smelled like your basic musty mold smell to me. Surrounding cubical areas and ceiling plenum areas smell normal. Not the slightest tick from the moisture meter on walls of the room. In fact, the only "source" of moisture is spilled coffee or the spritzer bottle for cleaning the whiteboards. As noted below in my first message, no plumbing or exterior walls anywhere close to this room. The only unexplored possibility is the electrical ducts under the floor, which is abandoned. However, this duct is under all the floors and no problem elsewhere or in adjacent areas. Until the carpet is removed I cannot access this ducting. Sporetrap sampling showed very low numbers in the conference room, conference room supply register, and adjacent cubical areas, so nothing to go on there. The other very interesting point is that two other conference rooms in the building are beginning to exhibit this odor too. We are working to identify any commonality between these rooms, which are on different HVAC zones. I really appreciate your ideas from my first message; if any of this rings a bell with you guys, please let me know! D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS Liesch Associates, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 , In this situation I have had good luck using the following method: Check to see if the supply air contains the odor If it does check ducts and AHU If it doesn’t Close the conference room doors Check with smoke bottle to see whether it is pressurized or depressurized relative to cavities surrounding it (check at electrical outlets, switches, door jambs, ceiling tile gaps, cracks into floor cavity, floor grilles) If it is depressurized, block off exhaust or return until it is pressurized Have coffee while the room undergoes 3 – 5 air changes to dilute the odor If on your return the odor is gone the source is somewhere outside the room being transported in by airflows (wall cavities, ceiling plenum) If the odor remains the source is in the room, you are looking at it but not seeing it Remove furnishings from room Check for odor Cover floor with poly taped to baseboard with blue tape as used for containment Check for odor Repeat with walls and ceiling This is a very powerful, but tedious way of finding an odor source. A few questions Was the room repainted recently? New furnishings? An air cleaner that produces ozone added? If outdoor air ventilation is increased does the odor get better or worse? Odor all the time? Worse on Mondays? Worse in hot, humid weather? Terry Brennan From: Carlson Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 4:24 PM To: iequality Subject: RE: Odor problem An update regarding the conference room odor problem...it is quite a puzzler. I visited the site, and was hit with a noticeable, though not overpowering, musty odor a few feet from the conference room door. Smelled like your basic musty mold smell to me. Surrounding cubical areas and ceiling plenum areas smell normal. Not the slightest tick from the moisture meter on walls of the room. In fact, the only " source " of moisture is spilled coffee or the spritzer bottle for cleaning the whiteboards. As noted below in my first message, no plumbing or exterior walls anywhere close to this room. The only unexplored possibility is the electrical ducts under the floor, which is abandoned. However, this duct is under all the floors and no problem elsewhere or in adjacent areas. Until the carpet is removed I cannot access this ducting. Sporetrap sampling showed very low numbers in the conference room, conference room supply register, and adjacent cubical areas, so nothing to go on there. The other very interesting point is that two other conference rooms in the building are beginning to exhibit this odor too. We are working to identify any commonality between these rooms, which are on different HVAC zones. I really appreciate your ideas from my first message; if any of this rings a bell with you guys, please let me know! D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS Liesch Associates, Inc. Odor problem Hello everybody. I would appreciate any ideas you might have for an investigation of an odor problem. Here are a few things I know from talking to the client (who is not an idiot and has done quite a bit of sleuthing already): · Problem is in a video conference room in the interior of a downtown high rise office building, odor is noticeable at the door to the room. · " Chemical-ly " odor noted in this room only. · No plumbing in or around the room, no known moisture issues at all. · No HVAC coils serving the room (VAV system) other than main air handler for entire floor. · duct system under carpet (formerly offices), but no problems elsewhere in the system. · No health complaints, only odor complaints. · Food/drink sometimes consumed in room during conferences. · No visible staining on carpet. · Carpet is about 3 years old. Owner has requested sampling of the carpet. I have not seen the site yet. I am thinking of vacuum sampling the carpet for microbials, along with comparison area sampling, but I am really grasping at straws. I plan to test the walls for moisture also, as it is a quick and easy check with a non-intrusive meter, and of course a visual look-see. Would MVOC sampling be worthwhile for this mystery odor problem? Without identifying a viable moisture source I am reluctant to spend the client's money on a lot of microbial sampling, but have no other leads to follow right now... D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS Liesch Associates, Inc. FAIR USE NOTICE: This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. E-MAIL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 Steve, I’ve seen this type of problem ultimately traced to a broken sewer line under the building. Have the drain lines been videoed to rule this out? It could have happened as a result of construction elsewhere in the neighborhood and migrated through the soils to under your subject building. Mark Doughty Odor problem Hello everybody. I would appreciate any ideas you might have for an investigation of an odor problem. Here are a few things I know from talking to the client (who is not an idiot and has done quite a bit of sleuthing already): · Problem is in a video conference room in the interior of a downtown high rise office building, odor is noticeable at the door to the room. · " Chemical-ly " odor noted in this room only. · No plumbing in or around the room, no known moisture issues at all. · No HVAC coils serving the room (VAV system) other than main air handler for entire floor. · duct system under carpet (formerly offices), but no problems elsewhere in the system. · No health complaints, only odor complaints. · Food/drink sometimes consumed in room during conferences. · No visible staining on carpet. · Carpet is about 3 years old. Owner has requested sampling of the carpet. I have not seen the site yet. I am thinking of vacuum sampling the carpet for microbials, along with comparison area sampling, but I am really grasping at straws. I plan to test the walls for moisture also, as it is a quick and easy check with a non-intrusive meter, and of course a visual look-see. Would MVOC sampling be worthwhile for this mystery odor problem? Without identifying a viable moisture source I am reluctant to spend the client's money on a lot of microbial sampling, but have no other leads to follow right now... D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS Liesch Associates, Inc. FAIR USE NOTICE: This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. E-MAIL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 Many raised floor plenum installations are retrofits. I once encountered floor drains under a raised floor in a computer room where Liebert air handling units had been installed. Naturally, the "P" traps had dried out. I recommended that mineral oil be poured in the traps. Steve Temes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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