Odor Problem

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Mark. That can be a problem in

some cases (I think back to a previous case where a broken drain line was

discovered to be dumping into an air plenum crawlspace under the building), but

I don't think that is the case here. This is on the 5th floor of

a building downtown.

D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS

Liesch Associates, Inc.

Odor problem

Hello

everybody. I would appreciate any ideas you might have for an investigation of

an odor problem. Here are a few things I know from talking to the client (who

is not an idiot and has done quite a bit of sleuthing already):

· Problem is in a video conference room in

the interior of a downtown high rise office building, odor is noticeable at the

door to the room.

· " Chemical-ly " odor noted in this

room only.

· No plumbing in or around the room, no known

moisture issues at all.

· No HVAC coils serving the room (VAV system)

other than main air handler for entire floor.

· duct system under carpet (formerly

offices), but no problems elsewhere in the system.

· No health complaints, only odor complaints.

· Food/drink sometimes consumed in room

during conferences.

· No visible staining on carpet.

* Carpet is about 3 years old.

Owner has

requested sampling of the carpet. I have not seen the site yet. I am thinking

of vacuum sampling the carpet for microbials, along with comparison area

sampling, but I am really grasping at straws. I plan to test the walls for

moisture also, as it is a quick and easy check with a non-intrusive meter, and

of course a visual look-see.

Would MVOC

sampling be worthwhile for this mystery odor problem? Without identifying a

viable moisture source I am reluctant to spend the client's money on a lot of

microbial sampling, but have no other leads to follow right now...

D.

Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS

Liesch

Associates, Inc.

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USE NOTICE:

This site contains copyrighted material the use of

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are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of

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social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any

such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright

Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site

is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in

receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For

more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml.

If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own

that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.

E-MAIL

[Guest guest]

Hmmm, I sniffed

the video equipment in the room, but not the light fixtures. I'll keep

that in mind, thanks.

D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS

Liesch Associates, Inc.

Re: Odor

problem

Steve,

Sniff any plastic. Some Apple computers have had

a strong musty smell (possibly from the unreacted 8-carbon alcohol in

plasticizer). Check other plastics also, even in light fixtures.

Jeff May

May Indoor Air Investigations LLC

Cambridge, MA

Carlson wrote:

An update

regarding the conference room odor problem...it is quite a puzzler. I visited

the site, and was hit with a noticeable, though not overpowering, musty

odor a few feet from the conference room door. Smelled like your basic musty

mold smell to me. Surrounding cubical areas and ceiling plenum areas smell

normal.

Not

the slightest tick from the moisture meter on walls of the room. In fact, the

only " source " of moisture is spilled coffee or the spritzer

bottle for cleaning the whiteboards. As noted below in my first message, no

plumbing or exterior walls anywhere close to this room.

The

only unexplored possibility is the

electrical ducts under the floor, which is abandoned. However, this duct is

under all the floors and no problem elsewhere or in adjacent areas. Until the

carpet is removed I cannot access this ducting.

Sporetrap sampling showed

very low numbers in the conference room, conference room supply register, and

adjacent cubical areas, so nothing to go on there.

The other very interesting point is that two other

conference rooms in the building are beginning to exhibit this odor too. We are working

to identify any commonality between these rooms, which are on different HVAC

zones.

I

really appreciate your ideas from my first message; if any of this rings a bell

with you guys, please let me know!

D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS

Liesch Associates, Inc.

[Guest guest]

I like that

approach Terry, we might have to try that. The walls

of this conference room stop at the suspended ceiling so the availability of "conduits"

for odor from outside the room is pretty limited. I am very suspicious of this underfloor duct system; it

is the only thing that hasn't been investigated yet. We'll see,

virtually everything in this room has been sniffed so far...

Regarding your

questions, these have already been addressed with no clear trends to follow up

on.

D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS

Liesch Associates, Inc.

Odor problem

Hello

everybody. I would appreciate any ideas you might have for an investigation of

an odor problem. Here are a few things I know from talking to the client (who

is not an idiot and has done quite a bit of sleuthing already):

· Problem is in a video conference room in

the interior of a downtown high rise office building, odor is noticeable at the

door to the room.

· " Chemical-ly " odor noted in this

room only.

· No plumbing in or around the room, no known

moisture issues at all.

· No HVAC coils serving the room (VAV system)

other than main air handler for entire floor.

· duct system under carpet (formerly

offices), but no problems elsewhere in the system.

· No health complaints, only odor complaints.

· Food/drink sometimes consumed in room

during conferences.

· No visible staining on carpet.

· Carpet is about 3 years old.

Owner has

requested sampling of the carpet. I have not seen the site yet. I am thinking

of vacuum sampling the carpet for microbials, along with comparison area

sampling, but I am really grasping at straws. I plan to test the walls for

moisture also, as it is a quick and easy check with a non-intrusive meter, and

of course a visual look-see.

Would MVOC

sampling be worthwhile for this mystery odor problem? Without identifying a

viable moisture source I am reluctant to spend the client's money on a lot of

microbial sampling, but have no other leads to follow right now...

D.

Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS

Liesch

Associates, Inc.

E-MAIL

[Guest guest]

Just a thought about the odor problem...described as a chemical odor, near the door of said conference room and beginning to appear in other conference rooms near the door as well...is it possible that the locks on the door were recently lubricated with WD-40 or similar? Smell the door knobs!

ph K. SchulmanFounder/CEOGold Bond Building Services, Inc. andMobility Solutions, Llc.Corporate Offices:805 Cross St. Suite 4Lakewood, NJ 08701-4099Gold Bond Main Phone: Mobility Solutions Main Phone: Toll Free: 1-877-811-REST (7378)Fax: E-Mail: JSchul6938@... info@...http://www.restassured.com/

[Guest guest]

· Food/drink sometimes consumed in room during conferences.

· No visible staining on carpet.

Try looking at the carpet and furniture with a UV light. Might just be a spilled beverage that is causing the odor. A coffee spill, if left uncleaned, will sour and begin to give off a musty smell if it contains milk or cream. Because it is near the door perhaps someone sloshed some coffee onto the carpet while entering the room (would not be the first time I have seen this).

ph K. SchulmanFounder/CEOGold Bond Building Services, Inc. andMobility Solutions, Llc.Corporate Offices:805 Cross St. Suite 4Lakewood, NJ 08701-4099Gold Bond Main Phone: Mobility Solutions Main Phone: Toll Free: 1-877-811-REST (7378)Fax: E-Mail: JSchul6938@... info@...http://www.restassured.com/

[Guest guest]

I think you have Bingo Mark! lol. I was just going to suggest the same thing re the sewer line. Who the heck am I? I'm new to list...have a particular now superhuman power to detect mold/sewer line problems (no matter how slight...eeeekkkk!) from exposure to same. You gotta do the camera though, or a crawl space check with water running so you can see the leaks too, roots in line, you name it, or even a bad angle to the street sewer, so lots of waste is sitting in the pipes that should be exiting to the city sewer line. But jeepers, I'd do both the camera and water running inspections (if possible to access crawl space). Also, are there any little gnats around? I walk in a place and feel weird, smell the mold smell or sometimes just an earthy or damp smell that's not really moldy, and I'll see a gnat or two. Sometimes it's just a super clean odor that burns your nose, and it's almost sweet and medicinal. You'll also sometimes see tiny tiny brown beetles and maybe only one or two. They look almost like specks. Some are bigger like little brown mottled lentils with a pincher on the front. They are mold beetles. They feed on decay. You will also see pill bugs (sow bugs), centipedes, sometimes ticks... The tick deal happened with a friend with lots of water damage under their slab. Oh yeah, and roaches, if you are in a place that has a large population of them. Of course, since lots of bugs are seasonal depending upon your location too, so you can't always trust that, but it's another signal. Glad yer trusting your nose. : ) Now, trust our buggy friends : ) Forgive if all you all know all this already! Like I said, new to list and trying to educate myself further after horrid mold/sewer line exposure in home that was finally red tagged by city for sewer breaks and contamination in crawl space that was seeping up into home and contaminating it. The mold? Mold doesn’t mean anything in my state yet. I say YET with the notion that someday it will, so that others won't have to go through what I've gone through.

Jaybird

Odor problem

Hello everybody. I would appreciate any ideas you might have for an investigation of an odor problem. Here are a few things I know from talking to the client (who is not an idiot and has done quite a bit of sleuthing already):

· Problem is in a video conference room in the interior of a downtown high rise office building, odor is noticeable at the door to the room.

· "Chemical-ly" odor noted in this room only.

· No plumbing in or around the room, no known moisture issues at all.

· No HVAC coils serving the room (VAV system) other than main air handler for entire floor.

· duct system under carpet (formerly offices), but no problems elsewhere in the system.

· No health complaints, only odor complaints.

· Food/drink sometimes consumed in room during conferences.

· No visible staining on carpet.

· Carpet is about 3 years old.

Owner has requested sampling of the carpet. I have not seen the site yet. I am thinking of vacuum sampling the carpet for microbials, along with comparison area sampling, but I am really grasping at straws. I plan to test the walls for moisture also, as it is a quick and easy check with a non-intrusive meter, and of course a visual look-see.

Would MVOC sampling be worthwhile for this mystery odor problem? Without identifying a viable moisture source I am reluctant to spend the client's money on a lot of microbial sampling, but have no other leads to follow right now...

D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS

Liesch Associates, Inc.

FAIR USE NOTICE:This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. FAIR USE NOTICE:This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.

E-MAIL

[Guest guest]

I should clarify

this slightly, while I first noticed the smell outside the door to the room, it

was pervasive throughout the room.

D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS

Liesch Associates, Inc.

Re: Odor

problem

In a message dated 11/2/2004

11:37:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, terry@... writes:

·

Food/drink sometimes

consumed in room during conferences.

*

No visible staining on

carpet.

Try looking at the carpet and

furniture with a UV light. Might just be a spilled beverage that is

causing the odor. A coffee spill, if left uncleaned, will sour and begin

to give off a musty smell if it contains milk or cream. Because it is

near the door perhaps someone sloshed some coffee onto the carpet while

entering the room (would not be the first time I have seen this).

ph

K. Schulman

Founder/CEO

Gold Bond Building Services, Inc. and

Mobility Solutions, Llc.

Corporate Offices:

805 Cross St. Suite 4

Lakewood, NJ 08701-4099

Gold Bond Main Phone:

Mobility Solutions Main Phone:

Toll Free: 1-877-811-REST (7378)

Fax:

E-Mail: JSchul6938@...

info@...

http://www.restassured.com/

*

[Guest guest]

If the odor is infiltrating from interstitial spaces you may be able to track its location down by using a little negative air pressure. I have had luck in the past finding offending odor sources in wall cavities by mounting a small fan in a window or door and sealing it off well enough to allow me to generate negative air pressure in the room. Exhausting air from the room serves to create a positive flow of air into the room through any and all available entry points. If this is in fact how the smell is getting into the room naturally, then artificially augmenting that mechanical action may be a value in finding the problem.

Once you get your negative air system set up and running in the room, start doing a sniff test at electrical outlets and light switches or any other penetrations in the roof be they from the floor, walls, or ceilings. It takes a fresh nose sometimes to find the problem so you may have to leave the area and come back several times if your nose gets insensitive to the smell. You may find that you can home in on the area where the odor is emanating since it does not sound like your offending agent is actually in the room your checking out (otherwise I would think you would have easily found it already). If you can narrow the search area down to a particular wall, outlet, or area of the room, you would at least have some basis under which to continue a logical search.

You should turn off the A/C blower in that zone in order to make this work. Also, be sure and do the sniff test at all of the A/C supply grills (you will need a ladder if the inlet grills are in the ceiling). If there is something in a supply duct that is generating the smell, then getting a very gentle flow of air from the ducts via your neg air test should help to concentrate the smell. If there are ceiling tiles, be sure and lift a few up and poke your head up in the ceiling cavity for a good look and a sniff.

Happy hunting!

Phil S.

RE: Odor problem

The client initially described the odor as "chemical-ly", but when I visited the site it just smelled like a musty basement to me.

Interesting how many different odor sources people are identifying, though!

D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS

Liesch Associates, Inc.

-----Original Message-----From: JSchul6938@... Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 8:44 AMTo: iequality Subject: Re: Odor problem

Just a thought about the odor problem...described as a chemical odor, near the door of said conference room and beginning to appear in other conference rooms near the door as well...is it possible that the locks on the door were recently lubricated with WD-40 or similar? Smell the door knobs!

ph K. SchulmanFounder/CEOGold Bond Building Services, Inc. andMobility Solutions, Llc.Corporate Offices:805 Cross St. Suite 4Lakewood, NJ 08701-4099Gold Bond Main Phone: Mobility Solutions Main Phone: Toll Free: 1-877-811-REST (7378)Fax: E-Mail: JSchul6938@... info@...http://www.restassured.com/

FAIR USE NOTICE:This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.

[Guest guest]

Hi Steve:

I think the most important clue you've noted to date is that the odor

has begun to be reported in other conference rooms in the same

building. the question I would try to answer is " what makes the

conference rooms different from the other occupied spaces in this

building? "

I wouldn't dismiss the ventilating systems out of hand, or just

because the building operators say there's nothing unique about the

HVAC equipment serving those rooms. they may not actually know this

to be the case. ask to see the mechanical plans, make sure

they're " as-builts " , and even with those in hand, I'd still take

another look above the ceiling. conference rooms in modern VAV

systems require special design consideration because of the expected

wide variation in occupant load.

you also mentioned that these are interior spaces -- no outside walls

means no heat or cooling load based on changes in outdoor

conditions. chances are the conference rooms only ever " see "

mechanical cooling. but a true VAV system (cooling only) serving a

conf room will subcool the space -- assuming they are NOT shut-off

VAV boxes -- unless there are reheat coils at or downstream of the

VAV box. have those coils or the associated control valves begun to

leak? you'll also find that FG duct liner is still commonly used in

the VAV boxes. I'd look again.

having lived in " the great white north " (where we all have basements)

you know a musty odor when you smell it, and we know that it's a

reliable indicator of active fungal amplification. the white board

markers, board cleaners and sewer leaks seem unlikely sources. in my

experience, they would each tend to produce a different odor, or a

variety of distinct odors over time. the " chemically " component

could also be bacterial, or related to wet insulation.

I'll be in the Cities again this weekend (ailing parents) and would

be happy to team up with you on this one, if you'd like.

best of luck on cracking this nut.

Wane

<><><><><><><><><><><><>

Wane A. Baker, P.E., CIH, RPIH

Director, Air Quality Services

" Bad air gets you down "

MICHAELS ENGINEERING INC.

811 Monitor Street, Suite 100

PO Box 2377

La Crosse, Wisconsin 54602

Phone , ext. 484

Cell

Fax

mailto:wab@...

On the web at: http://www.michaelsengineering.com

" To love what you do and feel that it matters - how could anything be

more fun? "

- Graham

> The client initially described the odor as " chemical-ly " , but when

I visited

> the site it just smelled like a musty basement to me.

>

> Interesting how many different odor sources people are identifying,

though!

>

> D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS

> Liesch Associates, Inc.

>

> Re: Odor problem

>

> Just a thought about the odor problem...described as a chemical

odor, near

> the door of said conference room and beginning to appear in other

conference

> rooms near the door as well...is it possible that the locks on the

door were

> recently lubricated with WD-40 or similar? Smell the door knobs!

[Guest guest]

What about using an ultra-fine particle sensor? I saw one in a presentation a couple of years ago and their examples all had to do with identifying odor sources. They were supposedly able to pinpoint small air passageways where diesel fumes were making their way in, they could trace orange peels down the hall to a particular trash can in a cupboard, etc. You might be able to do a sweep of the room surfaces to find an emission source. When you get this one figured out be sure to let us all know!

Bill McKee, CIH

Advanced Building Science

Nederland, CO

[Guest guest]

Hi again

everybody - here is an update on my downtown office building conference

room odor problem. Hopefully some of you remember the scenario so I won't

repeat myself overly much...since this was last discussed the following has

been done by the management:

All furniture and carpet/pad removed. Odor

remains.

Floor sealed and new carpet installed. Odor

remains.

Suspended ceiling panels replaced (fairly

standard 2'x2' tile ceiling). Odor remains.

Vinyl wall covering cleaned and washed. Odor

remains.

We are now,

somewhat out of desperation, thinking of looking into each wall cavity for...who

knows what. There is no water source around this room that could have soaked

any of the walls. Even a dead mouse (which have been reported in the building

occasionally) doesn't stink forever, especially when the humidity is in

the single digits like it has been recently with the below zero temps outside.

You guys have

been very helpful with your brainstorming ideas and investigative avenues...what

do you think now?

D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS

Liesch Associates, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Steve,

What type of flooring? Concrete? Slab on grade?

BOB

[Guest guest]

Steve,

Maybe they should try supplying every employee with a personal

hygiene kit (deodorant, toothpaste, etc.!)

You never know…!!!!

Seriously though, what kind of light fixtures are in the space?

Ever Inquiring Mind,

Stacey Champion

P.S. Has anyone looked behind the vinyl wall covering?

From: Carlson

Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005

4:07 PM

To: 'iequality '

Subject: RE: Odor

problem

Hi again everybody - here is an update on

my downtown office building conference room odor problem. Hopefully some of you

remember the scenario so I won't repeat myself overly much...since this was

last discussed the following has been done by the management:

All

furniture and carpet/pad removed. Odor remains.

Floor

sealed and new carpet installed. Odor remains.

Suspended

ceiling panels replaced (fairly standard 2'x2' tile ceiling). Odor

remains.

Vinyl

wall covering cleaned and washed. Odor remains.

We are now, somewhat out of desperation,

thinking of looking into each wall cavity for...who knows what. There is no

water source around this room that could have soaked any of the walls. Even a

dead mouse (which have been reported in the building occasionally) doesn't

stink forever, especially when the humidity is in the single digits like it has

been recently with the below zero temps outside.

You guys have been very helpful with your

brainstorming ideas and investigative avenues...what do you think now?

D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS

Liesch Associates, Inc.

FAIR

USE NOTICE:

This site contains copyrighted material the use of

which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We

are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of

environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and

social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any

such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright

Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site

is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in

receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For

more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml.

If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own

that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.

[Guest guest]

Either the odor originates from the

wallcovering, the adhesive, the gypsum board or it is being transported through

building cavities or the air handler.

Does the supply air smell stronger than

the room air?

Is the room pressurized or depressurized?

If pressurized the source is in the

wallcovering system;

If depressurized it may be coming in from

cavities.

Terry Brennan

From: Carlson

Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005

6:07 PM

To: 'iequality '

Subject: RE: Odor

problem

Hi again everybody - here is an update on

my downtown office building conference room odor problem. Hopefully some of you

remember the scenario so I won't repeat myself overly much...since this was

last discussed the following has been done by the management:

All

furniture and carpet/pad removed. Odor remains.

Floor

sealed and new carpet installed. Odor remains.

Suspended

ceiling panels replaced (fairly standard 2'x2' tile ceiling). Odor

remains.

Vinyl

wall covering cleaned and washed. Odor remains.

We are now, somewhat out of desperation,

thinking of looking into each wall cavity for...who knows what. There is no

water source around this room that could have soaked any of the walls. Even a

dead mouse (which have been reported in the building occasionally) doesn't

stink forever, especially when the humidity is in the single digits like it has

been recently with the below zero temps outside.

You guys have been very helpful with your

brainstorming ideas and investigative avenues...what do you think now?

D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS

Liesch Associates, Inc.

FAIR

USE NOTICE:

This site contains copyrighted material the use of

which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We

are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of

environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and

social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any

such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright

Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site

is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in

receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For

more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml.

If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own

that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.

[Guest guest]

Stacey

Have you gone to the floor below and removed ceiling tiles and examined your

floor area

with an emphasis on the plumbing? From the floor below you could see if there

are any

plumbing vents or drains running through the walls of your conference room and

the you

would know where to check. Also, any leaks may be evident.

J

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

>Steve,

>

>

>

>Maybe they should try supplying every employee with a personal

>

>hygiene kit (deodorant, toothpaste, etc.!)

>

>You never know.!!!!

>

>

>

>Seriously though, what kind of light fixtures are in the space?

>

>

>

>

>

>Ever Inquiring Mind,

>

>

>

>Stacey Champion

>

>

>

>P.S. Has anyone looked behind the vinyl wall covering?

>

>

>

>

>

> _____

>

>From: Carlson

>Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 4:07 PM

>To: 'iequality '

>Subject: RE: Odor problem

>

>

>

>Hi again everybody - here is an update on my downtown office building

>conference room odor problem. Hopefully some of you remember the scenario

>so

>I won't repeat myself overly much...since this was last discussed the

>following has been done by the management:

>

>

>

>* All furniture and carpet/pad removed. Odor remains.

>* Floor sealed and new carpet installed. Odor remains.

>* Suspended ceiling panels replaced (fairly standard 2'x2' tile

>ceiling). Odor remains.

>* Vinyl wall covering cleaned and washed. Odor remains.

>

>

>

>We are now, somewhat out of desperation, thinking of looking into each wall

>cavity for...who knows what. There is no water source around this room that

>could have soaked any of the walls. Even a dead mouse (which have been

>reported in the building occasionally) doesn't stink forever, especially

>when the humidity is in the single digits like it has been recently with

>the

>below zero temps outside.

>

>

>

>You guys have been very helpful with your brainstorming ideas and

>investigative avenues...what do you think now?

>

>

>

> D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS

>

>Liesch Associates, Inc.

>

>

>

>

>

>FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

>This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always

>been

>specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material

>available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental,

>political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social

>justice

>issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such

>copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright

>Law.

>In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site

>is

>distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in

>receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.

>For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml.

>If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your

>own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the

>copyright

>owner.

>

>

>

>

> _____

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Colleagues:

When investigating complaints of odors I usually find it useful to document

where the air is entering the complaint location to suggest possible sources.

Is the space under a negative pressure with respect to its surroundings; and

therefore drawing air from its wall cavities? Or, is it pressurized and is an

odor being sucked in to the AHU at the mechanical room?

If a potential source is located, I sometimes end up doing a SF6-based tracer

gas study to identify and characterize the pathway of air movement.

Just a thought.

Sincerely,

W. Bearg, PE, CIH

Consultant in IEQ

Concord, MA

Steve,

Maybe they should try supplying every employee with a personal

hygiene kit (deodorant, toothpaste, etc.!)

You never know…!!!!

Seriously though, what kind of light fixtures are in the space?

Ever Inquiring Mind,

Stacey Champion

P.S. Has anyone looked behind the vinyl wall covering?

From: Carlson

Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005

4:07 PM

To: 'iequality '

Subject: RE: Odor

problem

Hi again everybody - here is an update on

my downtown office building conference room odor problem. Hopefully some of you

remember the scenario so I won't repeat myself overly much...since this was

last discussed the following has been done by the management:

All

furniture and carpet/pad removed. Odor remains.

Floor

sealed and new carpet installed. Odor remains.

Suspended

ceiling panels replaced (fairly standard 2'x2' tile ceiling). Odor

remains.

Vinyl

wall covering cleaned and washed. Odor remains.

We are now, somewhat out of desperation,

thinking of looking into each wall cavity for...who knows what. There is no

water source around this room that could have soaked any of the walls. Even a

dead mouse (which have been reported in the building occasionally) doesn't

stink forever, especially when the humidity is in the single digits like it has

been recently with the below zero temps outside.

You guys have been very helpful with your

brainstorming ideas and investigative avenues...what do you think now?

D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS

Liesch Associates, Inc.

FAIR

USE NOTICE:

This site contains copyrighted material the use of

which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We

are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of

environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and

social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any

such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright

Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site

is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in

receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For

more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml.

If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own

that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.

FAIR USE NOTICE:

This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.

[Guest guest]

,

I’m sorry, but I don’t remember too many of the details associated with

this project, unfortunately—I LOVE these head scratchers.

That said, what is the HVAC system like? I’d check everything associated with it, particularly the

ductwork after the blower for any transported moisture. This time of year in the north is

heating season, and heat makes for annoyingly dry air, so if this applies to

you, do they have a humidifier system?

Has anyone looked at that, and particularly the area around where the

moisture is misted into the duct?

Another thing you might try: what is the odor like? If it’s fairly strong, you could use a

detector to try to find hotspots.

If the odor’s bacterial (rotting, trash-like), get one that looks for

amines and/or sulfides, particularly (mono-, di-, tri-)methyl amines and methanethiol

among others.

Speaking of bacteria, is there a large trash can in the room? If so, when was the last time it was cleaned

out? I don’t mean trash removal, I

mean taking it out back and hosing it down. It’s amazing what minor leaks in a trash can can do over

time…

Good luck!

A. Walsh MS, CIE

-----Original

Message-----

From: Carlson

Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005

6:07 PM

To: 'iequality '

Subject: RE: Odor

problem

Hi again everybody - here is an update on my downtown office

building conference room odor problem. Hopefully some of you remember the

scenario so I won't repeat myself overly much...since this was last discussed

the following has been done by the management:

·

All furniture and carpet/pad removed. Odor remains.

·

Floor sealed and new carpet installed. Odor remains.

·

Suspended ceiling panels replaced (fairly standard 2'x2' tile

ceiling). Odor remains.

·

Vinyl wall covering cleaned and washed. Odor remains.

We are now, somewhat out of desperation, thinking of looking into

each wall cavity for...who knows what. There is no water source around this

room that could have soaked any of the walls. Even a dead mouse (which have

been reported in the building occasionally) doesn't stink forever, especially

when the humidity is in the single digits like it has been recently with the

below zero temps outside.

You guys have been very helpful with your brainstorming ideas and

investigative avenues...what do you think now?

D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS

Liesch Associates, Inc.

FAIR USE NOTICE:

This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always

been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such

material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental,

political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice

issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted

material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance

with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed

without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the

included information for research and educational purposes. For more

information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml.

If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own

that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.

[Guest guest]

-

It's not my project - it's Steve's, but thanks for your suggestion

on behalf of him!

S.C.

RE: Odor problem

>

>

>

>Hi again everybody - here is an update on my downtown office building

>conference room odor problem. Hopefully some of you remember the scenario

>so

>I won't repeat myself overly much...since this was last discussed the

>following has been done by the management:

>

>

>

>* All furniture and carpet/pad removed. Odor remains.

>* Floor sealed and new carpet installed. Odor remains.

>* Suspended ceiling panels replaced (fairly standard 2'x2' tile

>ceiling). Odor remains.

>* Vinyl wall covering cleaned and washed. Odor remains.

>

>

>

>We are now, somewhat out of desperation, thinking of looking into each wall

>cavity for...who knows what. There is no water source around this room that

>could have soaked any of the walls. Even a dead mouse (which have been

>reported in the building occasionally) doesn't stink forever, especially

>when the humidity is in the single digits like it has been recently with

>the

>below zero temps outside.

>

>

>

>You guys have been very helpful with your brainstorming ideas and

>investigative avenues...what do you think now?

>

>

>

> D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS

>

>Liesch Associates, Inc.

>

>

>

>

>

>FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

>This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always

>been

>specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material

>available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental,

>political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social

>justice

>issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such

>copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright

>Law.

>In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site

>is

>distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in

>receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.

>For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml.

>If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your

>own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the

>copyright

>owner.

>

>

>

>

> _____

>

>

[Guest guest]

My bet is getting placed on “behind

the vinyl wall covering”!!!!

S.C.

From: Carlson

Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005

7:06 AM

To: 'iequality '

Subject: RE: Odor

problem

The HVAC system is a VAV. There are two

supply registers to this room. It is not overly large, it was formed about

seven years ago by combining two offices. There is no humidification in the

building. Despite the very dry winter air, most office buildings are

unhumidified here. Computer rooms often are humidified to reduce static

charges, but that does not apply in this case.

To my nose, the odor smells like standard

musty basement odors, although others have described it differently...in any

case there is a distinct odor change upon entering the room (which is situated

in a cubicle area). Sporetrap testing has come up empty, however.

No large trash can, just a small one for

coffee cups and such. Believe me, every object in this room has been sniffed

over and over again without finding any object that emits the odor.

D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS

Liesch Associates, Inc.

RE: Odor

problem

Hi again

everybody - here is an update on my downtown office building conference room

odor problem. Hopefully some of you remember the scenario so I won't repeat

myself overly much...since this was last discussed the following has been done

by the management:

·

All furniture and carpet/pad removed. Odor remains.

·

Floor sealed and new carpet installed. Odor remains.

·

Suspended ceiling panels replaced (fairly standard 2'x2'

tile ceiling). Odor remains.

·

Vinyl wall covering cleaned and washed. Odor remains.

We are now,

somewhat out of desperation, thinking of looking into each wall cavity

for...who knows what. There is no water source around this room that could have

soaked any of the walls. Even a dead mouse (which have been reported in the

building occasionally) doesn't stink forever, especially when the humidity is

in the single digits like it has been recently with the below zero temps

outside.

You guys have

been very helpful with your brainstorming ideas and investigative

avenues...what do you think now?

D.

Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS

Liesch

Associates, Inc.

FAIR

USE NOTICE:

This site contains copyrighted material the use of

which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We

are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of

environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and

social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any

such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright

Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site

is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in

receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For

more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml.

If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own

that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.

FAIR

USE NOTICE:

This site contains copyrighted material the use of

which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We

are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of

environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and

social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any

such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright

Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site

is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in

receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For

more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml.

If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own

that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.

FAIR

USE NOTICE:

This site contains copyrighted material the use of

which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We

are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of

environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and

social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any

such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright

Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site

is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in

receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For

more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml.

If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own

that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.

[Guest guest]

Steve,

I do not recall seeing if anyone posted this idea, but you can check

the computers themselves.

I did have a musty odor problem in a school classroom that moved

to the teacher's classroom down the hall when the Apple computer was relocated.

The odor (probably an alcohol used in a plasticizer) was from some plastic

in the computer. Apple replaced the computer and the musty odor left

the school.

A strong musty odor in a bedroom of a house originated from the plastic

sliding track of a replacement window. The odd thing about the odor was

that it came from only one side of the window track.

Jeff May

<www.mayindoorair.com>

Carlson wrote:

The

HVAC system is a VAV. There are two supply registers to this room. It is

not overly large, it was formed about seven

years ago by combining two offices. There is no humidification in the building.

Despite the very dry winter air, most office buildings are unhumidified

here. Computer rooms often are humidified to reduce static charges, but

that does not apply in this case.

To

my nose, the odor smells like standard musty basement odors,

although others have described it differently...in any case there is a

distinct odor change upon entering the room (which is situated in a cubicle

area). Sporetrap testing has come up empty,

however.

No

large trash can, just a small one for coffee cups and such. Believe me,

every object in this room has been sniffed over and over again without

finding any object that emits the odor.

D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS

Liesch

Associates, Inc.

[Guest guest]

We did check the

videoconferencing electronics. At any rate, the odor remained even after everything was removed from the room...

There are no

windows in this room, it is an interior room.

Thanks,

D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS

Liesch Associates, Inc.

Re: Odor

problem

Steve,

I do not recall seeing if anyone posted this idea, but

you can check the computers themselves.

I did have a musty odor problem in a school

classroom that moved to the teacher's classroom down the hall when the Apple

computer was relocated. The odor (probably an alcohol used in a plasticizer)

was from some plastic in the computer. Apple replaced the computer and

the musty odor left the school.

A strong musty odor in a bedroom of a house originated

from the plastic sliding track of a replacement window. The odd thing about the

odor was that it came from only one side of the window track.

Jeff May

<www.mayindoorair.com>

Carlson wrote:

The HVAC

system is a VAV. There are two supply registers to this room. It is not

overly large, it was formed about seven years ago by combining two

offices. There is no humidification in the building. Despite the very dry

winter air, most office buildings are unhumidified here. Computer rooms

often are humidified to reduce static charges, but that does not apply in this

case.

To

my nose, the odor smells like standard musty basement odors, although

others have described it differently...in any case there is a distinct odor

change upon entering the room (which is situated in a cubicle

area). Sporetrap testing has come up empty, however.

No

large trash can, just a small one for coffee cups and such. Believe me,

every object in this room has been sniffed over and over again without finding

any object that emits the odor.

D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS

Liesch Associates, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Steve,

As a shot in the dark, per se, have you

tried using an IR camera to see if there are any thermal clues?

Mark Doughty

RE: Odor

problem

Hi again everybody - here is an update on my downtown office

building conference room odor problem. Hopefully some of you remember the

scenario so I won't repeat myself overly much...since this was last discussed

the following has been done by the management:

·

All furniture and carpet/pad

removed. Odor remains.

·

Floor sealed and new carpet

installed. Odor remains.

·

Suspended ceiling panels replaced

(fairly standard 2'x2' tile ceiling). Odor remains.

·

Vinyl wall covering cleaned and

washed. Odor remains.

We are now, somewhat out of desperation, thinking of looking into

each wall cavity for...who knows what. There is no water source around this

room that could have soaked any of the walls. Even a dead mouse (which have

been reported in the building occasionally) doesn't stink forever, especially

when the humidity is in the single digits like it has been recently with the

below zero temps outside.

You guys have been very helpful with your brainstorming ideas and

investigative avenues...what do you think now?

D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS

Liesch Associates, Inc.

FAIR

USE NOTICE:

This site contains copyrighted material the use of

which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We

are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of

environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and

social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any

such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright

Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site

is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in

receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For

more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml.

If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own

that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.

[Guest guest]

No...as an

interior room I wouldn't anticipate thermal differentials, at least not

ones the moisture meter couldn't pick up.

D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS

Liesch Associates, Inc.

RE: Odor

problem

Hi again everybody - here is an update on my downtown office building

conference room odor problem. Hopefully some of you remember the scenario so I

won't repeat myself overly much...since this was last discussed the following

has been done by the management:

·

All furniture and carpet/pad

removed. Odor remains.

·

Floor sealed and new carpet

installed. Odor remains.

*

Suspended ceiling panels replaced

(fairly standard 2'x2' tile ceiling). Odor remains.

*

Vinyl wall covering cleaned and

washed. Odor remains.

We are now, somewhat out of desperation, thinking of looking into each

wall cavity for...who knows what. There is no water source around this room

that could have soaked any of the walls. Even a dead mouse (which have been

reported in the building occasionally) doesn't stink forever, especially when

the humidity is in the single digits like it has been recently with the below

zero temps outside.

You guys have been very helpful with your brainstorming ideas and

investigative avenues...what do you think now?

D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS

Liesch Associates, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Steve,

Can you remove a sample of the wall covering (hopefully it would be representative of the material used in the entire room) from an inconspicuous location and put it in a ziplock bag and warm it up and sniff it?

Did you indicate a while back that other conference rooms in the building had a similar odor? Do they have the same wall covering in them?

Steve Temes

That would be fun from a scientific standpoint...not sure it is practical though. The walls are certainly the only surface that has not been physically changed thus far...

D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS

Liesch Associates, Inc.

RE: Odor problem

On 25 Jan 2005 18:27:44 -0000, <iequality > wrote:

Have you considered simply putting a foil barrier over the vinyl to see if

it makes any difference at all in terms of having it isolated? (I would

tape it in place with foil tape, as well, so as not to introduce any new

variables.)

If you notice a difference in any way, then it's likely to be related to

the vinyl in some way and removing it might solve the problem.

Hope this helps,

LaVerne

[Guest guest]

On 25 Jan 2005 18:27:44 -0000, <iequality > wrote:

Have you considered simply putting a foil barrier over the vinyl to see if

it makes any difference at all in terms of having it isolated? (I would

tape it in place with foil tape, as well, so as not to introduce any new

variables.)

If you notice a difference in any way, then it's likely to be related to

the vinyl in some way and removing it might solve the problem.

Hope this helps,

LaVerne

> Hi again everybody - here is an update on my downtown office building

> conference room odor problem. Hopefully some of you remember the

> scenario so

> I won't repeat myself overly much...since this was last discussed the

> following has been done by the management:

> * All furniture and carpet/pad removed. Odor remains.

> * Floor sealed and new carpet installed. Odor remains.

> * Suspended ceiling panels replaced (fairly standard 2'x2' tile

> ceiling). Odor remains.

> * Vinyl wall covering cleaned and washed. Odor remains.