Re: Re: chicken feed and soy information

[Guest guest]

My neighbors who I purchase chickens from feed their chickens grains they raise,

barley, wheat, etc and hay. I have noticed even in winter the yolks have not

lost much of their deep yellow color. They also let the chickens out even in

winter (in Wisconsin). I have also heard of people sprouting grain for feed. It

is supposed to be wonderful for chickens, I guess some of the best meat..

Grace,

a Augustine

I wish you enough sun to keep your attitude bright.

I wish you enough rain to appreciate the sun more.

I wish you enough happiness to keep your spirit alive.

I wish you enough pain so that the smallest joys in life appear much bigger.

I wish you enough gain to satisfy your wanting.

I wish you enough loss to appreciate all that you possess.

I wish you enough ''Hello's " to get you through the final goodbye.

--anonymous

----- Original Message -----

From: drmichaelmarasco

Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 7:17 PM

Subject: Re: chicken feed and soy information

I don't have any chicken specific soy info off the top of my head

I'll see what I can dig up if anything. However in the meantime,

everything that applies to humans not eating soy or minimal amounts

should apply to chickens. Certainly their digestive systems are

different however the same things that make a soybean a generally

poor food source for us just makes it a poor food source. So

whatever you know about the crummyness (if that can be a word) of soy

as a food product you can use in the same way for a chicken.

I'll do some looking.

DMM

> As we have chickens as well and I'd love some ammo to toss at the

soy folks,

> please send me the info as well or perhaps post it here.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Belinda

> > Hi all. I need some information:

> >

> > 1. A local egg farmer asked me for information about any studies

that

> > address the detrimental effects of soy on chickens and on the

quality of

> > their eggs. If you have sites for such info., please send it to

me.

> >

> > 2. She also wants recommendations for a " good " chicken feed.

Her chickens

> > are free range, but she wants/needs to supplement with grains.

Please let

> > me know some good brands that I can recommend to her.

> >

> > Thanks

> >

> > Dana

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

At 08:50 PM 2/13/2002 -0600, you wrote:

>My neighbors who I purchase chickens from feed their chickens grains they

>raise, barley, wheat, etc and hay. I have noticed even in winter the yolks

>have not lost much of their deep yellow color. They also let the chickens

>out even in winter (in Wisconsin). I have also heard of people sprouting

>grain for feed. It is supposed to be wonderful for chickens, I guess some

>of the best meat..

I've read that chickens are naturally omnivorous. But I haven't seen any

indication that farmers feed them a balanced diet in that regard. Wouldn't

they naturally eat insects (protein) and other foods (than grains) if they

had access to them? Is there anyone farming chickens who uses a more

varied diet?

Thanks for the help.

-=mark=-

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/13/02 10:24:30 PM Central Standard Time,

thetasig@... writes:

> I've read that chickens are naturally omnivorous. But I haven't seen any

> indication that farmers feed them a balanced diet in that regard. Wouldn't

>

> they naturally eat insects (protein) and other foods (than grains) if they

> had access to them? Is there anyone farming chickens who uses a more

> varied diet?

>

> Thanks for the help.

>

> -=mark=-

>

>

>

<Waves at MarK>

We do butchering, the chickens get meat, lots and lots of meat in the winter.

In the summer I hang those bug bags around and feed the bugs to them.

Everybody is happy with this arrangement and I get ooodles of eggs.

Belinda

[Guest guest]

2/13/2002 9:34:48 PM, " soilfertility " <ynos@...> struggled

once again to get folks to understand that there is such a major

variation in food quality and, therefore, mineral content:

Great comments, Chi. Sadly, I suspect the people on this list are no

more prepared to understand the huge difference in first class

soybeans and the junk, i.e., garbage soybeans that are sold to them.

Most think a bean is a bean is a bean, and with good reason: they

grew up being fed such stupidity from " organic " magazines and

nutritional books. Perhaps you can get your message across if

you first get your group to understand there is an overwhelming

difference in the *quality* of soybeans that look the same to the

untrained eye. A starting point might be to help them fathom that

the ordinary $6-9 a bushel beans they seem to think are OK are

sometimes passed over by Japanese buyers who are willing to pay

$20 a bushel for higher quality beans. And this from adjacent farms

in the good ole USA. Another item you could use would be the report

that Steve Diver put together that tries to help people understand the

Firman Bear data that " organic " people try to use to prove " organic " works

was in reality a database that proved just how dramatic the mineral

content of food can vary---depending on the quality of the soil used

to grow them.

http://www.interlog.com/~ggh/pick5.htm

I think you could have a tough job on your hands if you're dealing with

people who may want to make, say, sauerkraut and they don't know

that high quality cabbage effortlessly ferments while the typical

cabbage they buy in stores is destined to mostly rot.

But keep up the good work.

Regards,

Rex Harrill

>Whether soybeans have detrimental or beneficial effects on the

>quality of chicken eggs when used as chicken feed is not determined

>by the feed being soybeans.

>From page 63 of Volume IV of " The Albrecht Papers " :

> " Vegetation can be classified, then, into two groups, the first being

>woody, or the carbonaceous, group when the soil contributes little

>fertility and compels the plant to operate largely on water and

>weather. The second is the proteinaceous and mineral rich group when

>the supply of soil fertility is large. Forest trees grow on soils of

>lower soil fertility, while legumes, such as alfalfa, demand higher

>soil fertility. The first of these two groups reflects the fuel

>value, and the second the nutritional service in body building, as we

>all know of alfalfa's service for promotion of grwoth in young

>livestock.

>Not only in the different plants are these differences found, but

>even within a single kind of plant there is a similar variation

>according to soil fertility. Soybeans, for example, become more woody

>in character if grown on a limited supply of soil fertility. When

>more generously nourished, they become rich in minerals as legumes

>are expected to be. The soil fertility supply determines the plant

>composition, irrespective of the plant's pedigree or its parents as

>performers on some other soil. "

>

>More on the variable nutritional content of the soybean from page 147:

> " Soybeans have demonstrated experimentally that they may be growing

>to good height and yet may contain less protein and less phosphorus

>in the crop than was in the planted seed. They have also been shown

>to behave in true legume fashion whne on soils with ample lime and

>phosphorus, but behaved like woody vegetation when these two were not

>so amply provided. Here is the explanation of why one might believe

>them an 'acid-tolerant' crop, when in reality they shifted from a

>legume crop over into a timber crop. "

>

>When soil fertility declines, most farmers seek a substitute crop

>instead of renewing the soil fertility. Since the soybean grows in a

>wider range of soil fertility than other legumes, it makes a good

>legume crop to switch to when soil fertility drops. Although the

>nutritional value drops, yield is maintained. The situation is made

>worse by the introduction of hybrid crops. The hybrid is designed to

>maintain yields with further drops in soil fertility. Declining

>nutritional values are, of course, no interest to anyone (except to

>the people who want to sell you supplements). Hybrids can be

>organically grown and yet no one complains.

>

>

>> Her chickens are free range, but she wants/needs to supplement with

>grains. Please let me know some good brands that I can recommend to

>her.

>

>As it was for the soybean, the nutritional value of the grain

>supplement will have been determined primarily by the soil fertility

>it was grown in, not by the type of grain or the brand that it is.

>Considering the above, you might suggest avoiding a feed that

>contains any hybrids. The only way to ensure the soil fertility is

>good is to know the soil fertility where the feed is grown. To

>improve the nutritional value of the eggs perhaps the best thing to

>do is to increase the soil fertility where the chickens are running

>free.

>Chi

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Chi wrote:

> Whether soybeans have detrimental or beneficial effects on the

> quality of chicken eggs when used as chicken feed is not determined

> by the feed being soybeans.

Rex wrote:

> Sadly, I suspect the people on this list are no

> more prepared to understand the huge difference in first class

> soybeans and the junk

Rex and Chi,

I think that, in your passion, you are inadvertently saying something that

you don't really mean...or at least saying it in a way that means something

different to me than it does to you. Perhaps the passion also explains

Rex's insulting tone, although it certainly doesn't excuse it. I doubt that

there are very many people on this list who don't agree with both of you

that the quality of an individual crop is very heavily determined by the

quality of the land. Your assertion however, that it is in fact the *only*

determinant, is going to lose most people...and for good reason. Even

though you say it, I don't really believe that even you believe it.

Poor soil quality does not create the phytic acid, trypsin inhibitors,

mineral phytates, estrogenic compounds, the particular essential fatty acid

balance or the particular amino acid balance that soybeans naturally have.

Those issues are there no matter what. It is those things (to varying

degrees depending on how the soy is treated) that may make it detrimental as

a feed ingredient...independently of soil fertility. Soil fertility is

absolutely yet another factor that needs to be considered, but nightshade

berries are no more healthful when grown on the most excellent biodynamic

soil on earth than they are when grown in a child's sandbox. Similarly,

there *are* problems with soy that are independent of soil fertility.

Sqare pegs are inappropriate for round holes whether they are made of gold,

clay, or biodynamic soil.

Minneapolis

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/14/02 7:42:57 PM Central Standard Time, bianca3@...

writes:

> I get my chickens and eggs from a lady who allows them to eat their

> natural diet. Pastured eggs is what they are called and they are so much

> better than the vegetarian fed variety.

>

>

I don't want to put down the woman you get your eggs from but the word

pastured means they could be in a cage about the size of your sofa pillow.

Belinda

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/14/02 8:05:47 PM Central Standard Time, bianca3@...

writes:

> Could be but they are not as I have visited her place on several

> occasions.

>

>

Good for you! It's great that folks take the time to see how their food is

raised. I love giving farm tours to folks.

Belinda

[Guest guest]

> Do you agree with the statement that food is fabricated soil fertility?

Hi Chi:

From a strictly semantic standpoint, sure. Tupperware is also fabricated

fossils, and alfalfa is fabricated air, and oxygen is fabricated carbon

dioxide, and my wallet is fabricated cow. It may sound axiomatic, but it's

also not illustrative of much. The fact that anything is fabricated means

that it has been fundamentally changed from it's original form and function.

Different organisms not only fabricate soil into different forms. From a

human dietary standpoint some are very useful, some are barely useful, some

aren't useful at all.

> If you offer an animal a choice of different foods that it can eat,

> will it make its choice based on which is the better food source or

> will it make its choice based on the soil fertility in which the food

> was grown?

It will make the choice based on better food source first and soil fertility

after. A cow *can* eat fruits, nuts, tree leaves, twigs etc, but it won't

do so regardless of the relative soil fertility unless you withhold the

items that are better, more natural food sources.

The question doesn't have that much meaning for the human diet anyway,

because we *can* eat virtually anything. We have ways of processing foods

that allow us to eat many things that we nevertheless *should not* eat --

regardless of what beneficial things they may contain as a result of the

soil or water in which they were grown.

Let me stress yet again, it's not that I disagree with you that soil

fertility is extremely important. I'm just insistent that some foods are

poor foods regardless of *how* or *where* they were grown. There's no doubt

that crops of similar type from differing soils will differ in nutritional

quality. But different types of crops grown in different soils differ more

because of their type than because of the soil.

Minneapolis

[Guest guest]

Hi Chi:

How is it that *what* a poisonous food is matters, but *what* a

non-poisonous or maybe semi-poisonous food is doesn't? If a poisonous

mushroom is poisonous regardless of the soil it is grown in, why is

something like soy different? If soy has problematic constituents (let's

call them semi-poisons) that make it undesirable, it's undesirable whether

it has a fabulous complement of trace minerals because of the soil it was

grown in...just like the poisonous mushroom is *very* undesirable regardless

of what the soil did for its composition.

Minneapolis

-----Original Message-----

From: soilfertility [mailto:ynos@...]

Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 3:58 PM

Subject: Re: chicken feed and soy information

> Is a poisonous mushroom fabricated soil fertility?

Hi :

Is a poisonous mushroom a food?

Chi

[Guest guest]

>Clearly, Weston Price was aware of the dominant position of soil

>fertility in determining nutritional quality.

Certainly, but equally certainly he didn't believe it was the only factor,

or he would've been perfectly content with a low-meat low-fat diet so long

as its elements were grown on good soil.

-

[Guest guest]

I get my chickens and eggs from a lady who allows them to eat their

natural diet. Pastured eggs is what they are called and they are so much

better than the vegetarian fed variety.

On Wed, 13 Feb 2002 20:23:47 -0800 theta sigma <thetasig@...>

writes:

At 08:50 PM 2/13/2002 -0600, you wrote:

>My neighbors who I purchase chickens from feed their chickens grains

they

>raise, barley, wheat, etc and hay. I have noticed even in winter the

yolks

>have not lost much of their deep yellow color. They also let the

chickens

>out even in winter (in Wisconsin). I have also heard of people sprouting

>grain for feed. It is supposed to be wonderful for chickens, I guess

some

>of the best meat..

I've read that chickens are naturally omnivorous. But I haven't seen any

indication that farmers feed them a balanced diet in that regard.

Wouldn't

they naturally eat insects (protein) and other foods (than grains) if

they

had access to them? Is there anyone farming chickens who uses a more

varied diet?

Thanks for the help.

-=mark=-

[Guest guest]

Could be but they are not as I have visited her place on several

occasions.

On Thu, 14 Feb 2002 21:00:26 EST bilherbs@... writes:

In a message dated 2/14/02 7:42:57 PM Central Standard Time,

bianca3@...

writes:

> I get my chickens and eggs from a lady who allows them to eat their

> natural diet. Pastured eggs is what they are called and they are so

much

> better than the vegetarian fed variety.

>

>

I don't want to put down the woman you get your eggs from but the word

pastured means they could be in a cage about the size of your sofa

pillow.

Belinda

[Guest guest]

For a number of years I worked with very sick people using diets and

herbs and a number of things to help them heal. We had oftentimes

spectacular recoveries from people who were told by their doctors they

were going to die. You name it we treated it successfully. Unlike most

alternative practitioners animal foods were a large part of what we did.

As a result we were fanatical about the quality and source of our foods.

I still am even though I don't actively work with patients anymore.

Unfortunately there is not much freedom when it comes to medical problems

in this country.

On Thu, 14 Feb 2002 21:08:14 EST bilherbs@... writes:

In a message dated 2/14/02 8:05:47 PM Central Standard Time,

bianca3@...

writes:

> Could be but they are not as I have visited her place on several

> occasions.

>

>

Good for you! It's great that folks take the time to see how their food

is

raised. I love giving farm tours to folks.

Belinda

[Guest guest]

2/14/2002 9:24:13 PM, " drmichaelmarasco " <mmarasco@...> wrote:

>...evidenced by my insistence on using

>Standard Process if you are going to use any supplements at all, as

>there are few places anywhere in North America with better soil.

Can you (DMM) give me a pointer to where I can review something

to back up the claim that SP has superior soil? I know what

their advertising claims, but I've been unsuccessful in discovering

any details about what they do to maintain fertility. I've also

been advised that they will not allow independent researchers

such as myself access to their fields so as to test their soil and

the actual quality of what they grow.

For anyone not following this fertility thread, think of a fertile field that

is being cropped. The first year tons and tons of produce are

trucked away. This produce is laden with minerals and other

goodies. The fertility of the field is diminished in direct proportion

to this trucking away of produce.

When you do this for a few years, the soil becomes more

and more poor. Finally, insects and diseases start appearing as

the soil no longer supports healthy crops.

Good farmers study enough to know what is in fertile soil and they

replenish the soil so as to maintain its microbial life, i.e., they work

toward maximizing fertility. OTOH, " modern " agriculture generally

pays minimal attention to fertility and uses stimulating " fertilizers "

to force lush growth. They then devise poisonous sprays to kill

the insects, weeds, and diseases that always attack such

weak vegetation. You get a single guess as to who buys this

junk.

As I said above, I've been unsuccessful at verifying SP actually

maintains the fertility of their fields. Can anyone on this list help

me open a channel?

Regards,

Rex Harrill

[Guest guest]

My neighbor has chickens. They aren't allowed to roam, but he mows some of

this grass nearly every day while it's growing and feeds the clippings to

his chickens.

Peace,

Kris , gardening in northwest Ohio

----- Original Message -----

From: theta sigma <thetasig@...>

< >

Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 11:23 PM

Subject: Re: Re: chicken feed and soy information

> At 08:50 PM 2/13/2002 -0600, you wrote:

> >My neighbors who I purchase chickens from feed their chickens grains they

> >raise, barley, wheat, etc and hay. I have noticed even in winter the

yolks

> >have not lost much of their deep yellow color. They also let the chickens

> >out even in winter (in Wisconsin). I have also heard of people sprouting

> >grain for feed. It is supposed to be wonderful for chickens, I guess some

> >of the best meat..

>

> I've read that chickens are naturally omnivorous. But I haven't seen any

> indication that farmers feed them a balanced diet in that regard.

Wouldn't

> they naturally eat insects (protein) and other foods (than grains) if they

> had access to them? Is there anyone farming chickens who uses a more

> varied diet?

>

> Thanks for the help.

>

> -=mark=-

>

>

>

>