Re: amino acids?

[Guest guest]

Get NT, Follow the bone broth recipie, eat the broth, you'll be

happy:-))))

DMM

> I am reading a book that was recommended on the WAP

> website--The Diet Cure by Ross. The idea is that

> taking amino acids can cure various imbalances created

> by the wrong diet, like the low-fat/high-carb thing.

> Some of the descriptions of people's symptoms and

> cravings fit me to a T. So I'm curious about trying

> this. Have any of you done it?

> Lierre

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Lierre,

Have you tried light therapy? Are you not getting enough bright light during the

day? It's so gray where I live especially in the winter, I couldn't be without

my SAD lamp.

[Guest guest]

On Sat, 16 Feb 2002 13:24:28 -0000 " lierrekeith " <lierrekeith@...>

writes:

I have the book. I've eaten bone broth almost every day since last

August (that's over 6 months). It hasn't helped. Nothing has. I

started eating along the Atkins/Protein Power guidelines about 3

years ago due to severe hypoglycemia after 18 years of veganism. I

found NT last spring and really started doing it last summer. My

problem is that I still get intense carboydrate/sweet craves every

afternoon at 3 PM. When I say intense, I mean intense. There have

been long stretches of time--like 2 years--when I white-knuckled it

and kept away from ALL carbs/sweets including in the afternoon. It

didn't matter. Every day I still got the crave. Then I decided to

give into it a little--eat a piece of fruit and cheese, or a piece of

bread with pnut butter and jelly. Doesn't help either--if I eat

something sweet/carb, I only want more.

Lierre,

I am a big believer in satisfying ones cravings. I think it is a signal

that we are missing something in our diet that particular craving

provides. The problem is that most of us attempt to satisfy that craving

in the wrong way, exacerbating rather than solving the problem So at the

risk of sounding heretical let me offer a couple of suggestions.

you should eat tremendous amounts of unheated raw honey until the craving

is satisfied. Noticed I said UNHEATED and not raw (which is actually

heated). This will supply enzymes to regulate and heal your pancreas and

liver which are probably severely out of sorts because of your severe

hypoglycemia. Refined sugars won't do as they will only worsen your

problem. I know of a woman who ate a pound of honey a day for a month,

but it is what she needed and her cravings went away

you should eat raw fruit with raw fat. Say cream and strawberries or

cream with any kind of fruit. A smoothie that is good for you is to take

2-4 raw eggs, blend with unheated honey, cream, and some fruit.

eating raw meat, including raw fish, gradually rebuilds the pancreas and

liver

Her

explanation is that the brain stops producing serotonin in the

afternoon, and starts producing melatonin instead, and what I really

want is the serotonin hit hence the desperation for carbohydrate

food, especially chocolate (don't even talk to me about chocolate

craving).

You are not crazy and I have seen what I have written above work some

real miracles. A great chocolate substitute can be made by blending 4

parts raw fat with 1 part unheated honey. After melting the butter (in a

warm water bath) add 3 tablespoons unheated honey and 2 tablespoons raw

carob powder. Mix thoroughly as use as you would chocolate or refrigerate

it so that it can get hard.

just my two cents...

[Guest guest]

>My problem is that I still get intense carboydrate/sweet craves every

>afternoon at 3 PM.

What about a Chromium definciency? Could it be something such as this? Maybe a

suggestion.

Grace,

a Augustine

I wish you enough sun to keep your attitude bright.

I wish you enough rain to appreciate the sun more.

I wish you enough happiness to keep your spirit alive.

I wish you enough pain so that the smallest joys in life appear much bigger.

I wish you enough gain to satisfy your wanting.

I wish you enough loss to appreciate all that you possess.

I wish you enough ''Hello's " to get you through the final goodbye.

--anonymous

[Guest guest]

[i forwarded the recent messages on amino acids to my partner Marie

who has worked with Ross at Recovery Systems. Here is her two

cents....]

Having worked with Ross for over a year as a nutritionist at

her clinic, Recovery Systems, I do have some insights on amino acids

and cravings/addictions that might be of use. Unfortunately, as you

have discovered, Lierre, for many people it is not as simple as " eat

the broth, you'll be happy. " The clients who come through 's

clinic, like you, have usually tried everything. The family history

you describe is like countless histories I heard from my clients;

when there is a generational passing on of depleted seratonin,

evidenced by family alcoholism, drug abuse, depression and Prozac,

etc., it can be an amazing relief to discover that this in NOT just

family emotional dysfunction--this is brain chemistry deficiency.

L-Trytophan and 5HTP can be extraordinary support for the intense

cravings you speak of in the afternoon. You could safely try one

capsule of these, 1/2 hr. before you usually get these cravings.

Some people do fabulously with 5HTP, which is less expensive and

easier to get. Others do better with L-Tryptophan, which is

available now. If either of these are going to work for you, you'll

usually know within 10-20 minutes. The calm, serenity and lack of

interest in carbos can be dramatic and immediate for many, many

people. If either of these aminos are not right for you, your body

will tell you. You'll either feel nothing, or you'll feel " off. " One

usually takes 1-2 of these at a time, in rare cases, 3. (And some

need to take it 3-4 times a day.) I could tell you story after story

of extraordinary help my clients got from using these amino acids--

simply miracles-- in conjunction with changing their diets, dealing

with food allergies, endocrine imbalances, etc. All of my clients

learned about NT and were supported to incorporate its principles

into their diets.

Regarding how long one would stay on these--it really varies. You

literally can " restock " your supply of these mood neurotransmitters,

as there are storage sights which get replenished. Eventually--from

3 months to 1 year--you'll either notice that upon forgetting to take

them that you didn't have a relapse, or you'll start to feel the

effects of too much seratonin, which would be similar to some

symptoms of not enough--crabby, short-tempered. They are absolutely

not habit forming, and from everything I have seen, heard,

experienced, and studied, they are safe.

My feeling is that, yes, in an ideal world, a great diet a la NT

would be sufficient to restore any neurotransmitter deficiency. And

many people do; simply eating more nutrient dense foods, especially

fat and protein, eliminates the cravings. But as a culture so many

of us have become so far out of balance with our biochemistry that

more intervention is needed.

I don't want to simplify this too much; usually there is a

constellation of imbalances which needed to be addressed

simultaneously. Food allergies are a big one. Many are allergic to

such things as gluten --even pre-soaked, sprouted, etc.-- and food

allergies can aggravate food cravings. Chromium and other mineral

def. can be big. Also not getting enough sunlight, Vit D. I have

seen a severely alcoholic woman (who lived in depressing Seattle)

light up with joy and bliss in front of a full spectrum lamp in one

sitting.

Elly, regarding your headache experience with DLPA. If one is truly

dealing with endorphin deficiencies, there is DPA, without the

stimulating " L " part of it. (The " L " part helps produce dopamine and

norepinephrine.) Rarely does DPA make one feel anxious, or give them

headaches, as it did your friend. DPA is hard to find in a health

food store. You can purchase it, as well as L-Tryptophan, from

Infinity Health at (800) 733-9293. Also, L-Tryptophan might work for

you, even though 5HTP didn't. It might be worth a try. Once in a

while, someone doesn't respond to these at all, even if they are

seratonin def. and other approaches can be taken, like using St.

's wort, and looking at the systemic imbalances which link up to

brain chemistry.

If one has the time or money, you can work with Recovery Systems,

long distance, after an initial in person workup, through a 12 week

(can be shorter) program. I am not currently working with clients

either at RS or privately, but Tim Kuss, owner of Infinity Health and

's head nutritionist, can work long distance with people over

the phone. He knows working with aminos backwards and forwards and

has informed much of her nutritional work. You can reach him

through the above Infinity Health number.

Re: 's 2 page pink sheet. Go to www.dietcure.com and leave an

email there.

Hope this helps. Good luck!

Marie Bishop

[Guest guest]

Lierre,

I strongly disagree with Ross' theories regarding the so called

serotonin deficiency, as I do with most of the folks theorizing about

brain chemistry especially in regard to Serotonin. Although I am

certainly not an expert in that field Ray Peat,PhD certainly is and

is probably the formost author on the debunking of these brain

chemistry theories including how they pertain to serotonin levels.

You mentioned a history of people in your family on prozac and

alcoholics and you as a former vegan. I am obviously making a blind

assesment here with little info to go on however if you show me a

vegan on prozac who is an alcoholic I will show you someone with one

big fat hormonal mess the direct result of the worst kind of sugar

handling problem as a direct result of a digestive system that works

about as well as a one legged man in a butt kicking contest. I

realize you were speaking of three very separate conditions above

however they all have what I have mentioned in common and that is

where I would look. If you have been eating well made bone broth for

so long and are not benefiting I can assure you you aren't going to

find any better amino acids anywhere much less expensive synthetic

trash made in a drug companies lab. If I have made your problem and

its solution sound terribly simple I deeply apologize because simple

is the last thing that it is. However if you were a client of mine

on first blush (going on your info) I'd see someone who has a very

stressed dietary history along with major hormonal imbalance

predisposition with an associated major sugar handling issue. On top

of that they've been eating really really well for a while with what

looks like no improvement. For my money this has malabsorbtion,

miserable digestion, and ultimately malnutrition written all over

it. Again I'm speaking blind here and just trying to help a little

with what you've given me. If you have been eating as well as you

say for as long as you say and there has been NO improvement. You

must have a significant digestive problem. If it were merely missing

a few aminos or some other nutrient deficiency all by itself you

would at least have improved a little just by the very fact your body

has been getting the best nutrients its had in years. So before I

went on the long and winding road of blindly trying to manipulate

brain chemistry, I would strongly suggest looking to your digestion

and assimilation. I know its not very sexy and you may not appear to

have any digestive " problems " but I've seen enough vegans both

reformed and unreformed to have a pretty good idea as to what this

picture looks like.

I hope this is of some help for you. If you need some further

diologue on this feel free to email me at mmarasco@...

Sincerely,

Dr. Marasco,BS,DC

Cincinnati, Oh

> > Get NT, Follow the bone broth recipie, eat the broth, you'll be

> > happy:-))))

> > DMM

>

> I have the book. I've eaten bone broth almost every day since last

> August (that's over 6 months). It hasn't helped. Nothing has. I

> started eating along the Atkins/Protein Power guidelines about 3

> years ago due to severe hypoglycemia after 18 years of veganism. I

> found NT last spring and really started doing it last summer. My

> problem is that I still get intense carboydrate/sweet craves every

> afternoon at 3 PM. When I say intense, I mean intense. There have

> been long stretches of time--like 2 years--when I white-knuckled it

> and kept away from ALL carbs/sweets including in the afternoon. It

> didn't matter. Every day I still got the crave. Then I decided to

> give into it a little--eat a piece of fruit and cheese, or a piece

of

> bread with pnut butter and jelly. Doesn't help either--if I eat

> something sweet/carb, I only want more. This is not an emotional

> problem (though at the risk of over-sharing I considered that it

> might be, and also tried therapy, hypnosis, and overeaters

anonymous,

> none of which helped). It's not a low blood-sugar kind of crave

> (believe me, I've had enough of those to know what they feel like).

> But Ross describes this exact phenomena in her book. Her

> explanation is that the brain stops producing serotonin in the

> afternoon, and starts producing melatonin instead, and what I

really

> want is the serotonin hit hence the desperation for carbohydrate

> food, especially chocolate (don't even talk to me about chocolate

> craving). People in my family have a real problem with serotonin--

I'm

> the only one not either on Prozac or an alcoholic. But not being a

> doctor or scientist, it's really hard to evaluate if these kinds of

> statements are true or ridiculous. I am inclined to believe that

> Ross is right, but only because everything else I've learned

> from Sally and WAP has been so helpful. Also Ross at least

describes

> the problem--and maybe I'm not crazy after all! What could be the

> downside of taking amino acids for a few months?

> Lierre

[Guest guest]

On Sun, 17 Feb 2002 00:16:56 -0000 " radlife2002 "

<radiantlife@...> writes:

<Having worked with Ross for over a year as a nutritionist at

her clinic, Recovery Systems, I do have some insights on amino acids

and cravings/addictions that might be of use. Unfortunately, as you

have discovered, Lierre, for many people it is not as simple as " eat

the broth, you'll be happy. " The clients who come through 's

clinic, like you, have usually tried everything. The family history

you describe is like countless histories I heard from my clients;

when there is a generational passing on of depleted seratonin,

evidenced by family alcoholism, drug abuse, depression and Prozac,

etc., it can be an amazing relief to discover that this in NOT just

family emotional dysfunction--this is brain chemistry deficiency.>

This is an interesting letter and it may serve to spell out some

differences between those of us who are within, broadly speaking, the

Nourishing Traditions family.

First I would like to point out that I do not believe there is a

generational passing on of any depletion. You may in fact inherit a

weakness for such, but whether that is manifested as such depends on many

factors, the paramount issues being lifestyle and diet. This assumption

however causes many health practitioners to look in the wrong direction

when faced with patients who have such problems.

Second, having dealt with a number of people facing these problems, it is

rare to find someone who has " tried everything " . They usually have tried

a lot of things within a narrow protocol and oftentimes have missed some

of the most obvious things, but more on that later.

<L-Trytophan and 5HTP can be extraordinary support for the intense

cravings you speak of in the afternoon.>

Man oh man, where does one begin? There is a school of thought within the

broad field of nutrition and diet, that most isolated supplements in the

long run tend to be toxic for the body, and particularly amino acid and

enzyme supplementation are looked at not as support but rather as a

crutch, not coaxing the body to eventually repair the damage (however it

got there) but rather causing the body to become dependent on such

protocol. True they can sometimes bring immediate relief in the short

term but in the long run do not help the body move forward. I could say

so much more about these two in particular but I will leave that for

another time. Suffice it to say there is a risk present here that is not

at all present with what I suggested in an earlier post.

<snip> <The calm, serenity and lack of

interest in carbos can be dramatic and immediate for many, many

people.>

You have effectively shut down the body's signalling mechanism for

telling us that something is wrong by feeding it chemically rather than

providing it what it needs in terms of bioactive nutrients found in food,

not chemical supplementation. As I said in a previous post, acknowledge

and trust the craving, just make sure it is satisfied in the proper way.

Eventually both the craving and the underlying problem causing the

craving will be gone. I know that sounds strange in todays world but I

have found it to be true over and over again.

<snip>

<Regarding how long one would stay on these--it really varies. You

literally can " restock " your supply of these mood neurotransmitters,

as there are storage sights which get replenished. Eventually--from

3 months to 1 year--you'll either notice that upon forgetting to take

them that you didn't have a relapse, or you'll start to feel the

effects of too much seratonin, which would be similar to some

symptoms of not enough--crabby, short-tempered. They are absolutely

not habit forming, and from everything I have seen, heard,

experienced, and studied, they are safe.>

You can accomplish the same results in the same time frame with food

alone. And I am highly suspicious of that last sentence for a number of

reasons, not the least being studies I have read talking about the

dangers of amino acid supplementation.

<My feeling is that, yes, in an ideal world, a great diet a la NT

would be sufficient to restore any neurotransmitter deficiency. And

many people do; simply eating more nutrient dense foods, especially

fat and protein, eliminates the cravings. But as a culture so many

of us have become so far out of balance with our biochemistry that

more intervention is needed.>

Several points.

1. While eating nutrient dense foods sometimes eliminates cravings - her

answer is a very simplistic brush off of a specific dietary approach. The

point I'm making is to eat a more nutrient dense form of the kind of food

being craved, while making other very radical changes in the diet.

Most of the time we had our patients simply give up cooked foods for the

moment, introducing them to grass fed butter, cream, and cultured milk,

steak tartar, beef carpaccio, raw fish dishes, fermented veggies and

veggie salads, and on occasion a little cooked starch.

If they were craving honey they could eat to their hearts content. One

lady had a fetish for ice cream, okay we trusted her body, and showed her

how to make raw ice cream. She ate a ton it, but a month later she had

lost weight and her craving for ice cream. Another gentlemen, scared to

death, stopped taking his 5HTP while simultaneously downing tons of raw

meat with honey. He had absolutely no symptoms and was ecstatic. I did

not try to subdue the craving but rather acknowledged it and let it be

the guide as to how best to treat the patient/client.

2. Yes, many are very out of balance, and you can look at that as a need

for more intervention, ala the medical model, or a need to move further

along the Price/Pottenger continuum, and mimic some of the traditional

groups whose diets were 90-100% raw and thus had many more bioactive

nutrients available in their diet.

I fear that the problem with many folk who adopt the NT way and remain

boggled by many problems is that they don't go far enough in pushing the

diet to the limit and simply replace rather haphazardly their previous

foods. And when they don't find relief they end up falling back on a

paradigm which contradicts some of the basic tenants of Price's work.

The raw/cooked combo works for many but not all and the

Price/Pottenger/NT continuum certainly has a nearly raw food perspective

within it, even if its not evident on this list. That perspective works

in situations like this and renders obsolete the need for toxic

supplementation.

<I don't want to simplify this too much; usually there is a

constellation of imbalances which needed to be addressed

simultaneously. Food allergies are a big one. Many are allergic to

such things as gluten --even pre-soaked, sprouted, etc.-- and food

allergies can aggravate food cravings.>

Yes, getting rid of grains in this situation is a must.

<Chromium and other mineral

def. can be big.>

The honey solves this problem as do the other raw foods. We can get

caught up in a whole complex of approaches as we find one thing doesn't

work and we move to another. Sometimes though we need to trust what got

us here in the first place, our commitment to the foods of tradition

provided for in a nourishing way. That may mean taking a closer look at

things that are right under our nose.

Lierre, I wish you well as try to find the right path.

[Guest guest]

,

I would agree with you although I answered it somewaht differently. The

expensive synthetic aminos scare the bejeezus out of me! The fat hormonal

mess...sugar handling...digestive problem... is exactly what I was

trying to address, you just did it in a much more articulate way. I'm not

suggesting that your approach would be the same as mine...it most

probably would not...but it is clear that we share a common outlook ,

broadly speaking, on what is going on with people in such a situation.

by the way, I love Ray Peat.

On Sun, 17 Feb 2002 01:14:26 -0000 " drmichaelmarasco "

<mmarasco@...> writes:

Lierre,

I strongly disagree with Ross' theories regarding the so called

serotonin deficiency, as I do with most of the folks theorizing about

brain chemistry especially in regard to Serotonin. Although I am

certainly not an expert in that field Ray Peat,PhD certainly is and

is probably the formost author on the debunking of these brain

chemistry theories including how they pertain to serotonin levels.

You mentioned a history of people in your family on prozac and

alcoholics and you as a former vegan. I am obviously making a blind

assesment here with little info to go on however if you show me a

vegan on prozac who is an alcoholic I will show you someone with one

big fat hormonal mess the direct result of the worst kind of sugar

handling problem as a direct result of a digestive system that works

about as well as a one legged man in a butt kicking contest. I

realize you were speaking of three very separate conditions above

however they all have what I have mentioned in common and that is

where I would look. If you have been eating well made bone broth for

so long and are not benefiting I can assure you you aren't going to

find any better amino acids anywhere much less expensive synthetic

trash made in a drug companies lab. If I have made your problem and

its solution sound terribly simple I deeply apologize because simple

is the last thing that it is. However if you were a client of mine

on first blush (going on your info) I'd see someone who has a very

stressed dietary history along with major hormonal imbalance

predisposition with an associated major sugar handling issue. On top

of that they've been eating really really well for a while with what

looks like no improvement. For my money this has malabsorbtion,

miserable digestion, and ultimately malnutrition written all over

it. Again I'm speaking blind here and just trying to help a little

with what you've given me. If you have been eating as well as you

say for as long as you say and there has been NO improvement. You

must have a significant digestive problem. If it were merely missing

a few aminos or some other nutrient deficiency all by itself you

would at least have improved a little just by the very fact your body

has been getting the best nutrients its had in years. So before I

went on the long and winding road of blindly trying to manipulate

brain chemistry, I would strongly suggest looking to your digestion

and assimilation. I know its not very sexy and you may not appear to

have any digestive " problems " but I've seen enough vegans both

reformed and unreformed to have a pretty good idea as to what this

picture looks like.

I hope this is of some help for you. If you need some further

diologue on this feel free to email me at mmarasco@...

Sincerely,

Dr. Marasco,BS,DC

Cincinnati, Oh

> > Get NT, Follow the bone broth recipie, eat the broth, you'll be

> > happy:-))))

> > DMM

>

> I have the book. I've eaten bone broth almost every day since last

> August (that's over 6 months). It hasn't helped. Nothing has. I

> started eating along the Atkins/Protein Power guidelines about 3

> years ago due to severe hypoglycemia after 18 years of veganism. I

> found NT last spring and really started doing it last summer. My

> problem is that I still get intense carboydrate/sweet craves every

> afternoon at 3 PM. When I say intense, I mean intense. There have

> been long stretches of time--like 2 years--when I white-knuckled it

> and kept away from ALL carbs/sweets including in the afternoon. It

> didn't matter. Every day I still got the crave. Then I decided to

> give into it a little--eat a piece of fruit and cheese, or a piece

of

> bread with pnut butter and jelly. Doesn't help either--if I eat

> something sweet/carb, I only want more. This is not an emotional

> problem (though at the risk of over-sharing I considered that it

> might be, and also tried therapy, hypnosis, and overeaters

anonymous,

> none of which helped). It's not a low blood-sugar kind of crave

> (believe me, I've had enough of those to know what they feel like).

> But Ross describes this exact phenomena in her book. Her

> explanation is that the brain stops producing serotonin in the

> afternoon, and starts producing melatonin instead, and what I

really

> want is the serotonin hit hence the desperation for carbohydrate

> food, especially chocolate (don't even talk to me about chocolate

> craving). People in my family have a real problem with serotonin--

I'm

> the only one not either on Prozac or an alcoholic. But not being a

> doctor or scientist, it's really hard to evaluate if these kinds of

> statements are true or ridiculous. I am inclined to believe that

> Ross is right, but only because everything else I've learned

> from Sally and WAP has been so helpful. Also Ross at least

describes

> the problem--and maybe I'm not crazy after all! What could be the

> downside of taking amino acids for a few months?

> Lierre

[Guest guest]

As far as 5-HTP goes, I'd be very wary. There's an interesting cautionary

article on the Life Extension Foundation's site, at

http://www.lef.org/magazine/hotlines3.html

A couple excerpts:

>In reviewing the published literature, however, we've found some

>potentially serious adverse side effects that Americans might encounter

>when using 5-HT. Interestingly, most Europeans would be far less likely to

>encounter these side effects.

>The blood-brain barrier does not allow significant absorption of serotonin

>from the blood. The brain does have a large neutral amino acid pump that

>freely allows tryptophan and 5-HT into the brain for conversion into serotonin

>The process by which 5-HT is converted into serotonin is called

>decarboxylation. If decarboxylation occurs before 5-HT absorbed by the

>brain, then blood levels of serotonin will elevate significantly, but very

>little serotonin will enter the brain.

>When Europeans take 5-HT, they are often prescribed the dopa decarboxylase

>inhibitor carbidopa that prevents 5-HT from being converted into serotonin

>until it reaches the brain. Americans do not take carbidopa with 5-HT and

>the result is possible serotonin overload in the blood, with virtually no

>serotonin reaching the brain.

>Americans taking 5-HT are more vulnerable to blood serotonin overload

>because, unlike most Europeans are who are vitamin deficient, Americans

>who use 5- HT usually take large doses of vitamin B6 as well. Vitamin B6

>rapidly converts 5-HT into serotonin before it reaches the brain. Even

>when combined with carbidopa, high levels of vitamin B6 will break through

>the carbidopa barrier and insure that 5-HT converts into serotonin in the

>blood before the it can reach the brain.

>The multiple health benefits of vitamin B6 are too important, we believe,

>to recommend that people avoid taking vitamin B6 just to enable them to

>try using 5-HT to boost brain serotonin levels. This may be difficult

>anyway without also taking carbidopa, which is only available in the U.S.

>as a prescription drug.

>At the very best, those who take vitamin B6 with 5- HT are probably

>wasting their money. Unfortunately, high serotonin in the blood is not

>benign. Anyone suffering from heart disease should avoid 5-HT because the

>elevation in blood serotonin could cause coronary artery spasm and/or

>abnormal platelet aggregation, which are risk factors for sudden death

>heart attack.

>Here is the real frightening aspect of serotonin overload, as described by

>Dr. : " Serotonin causes not only harmless flushing and diarrhea, but

>people with serotonin secreting tumors (hindgut carcinoids) also have

>problems with fibrosis of the endocardium and valves of their right

>hearts, which can cause heart failure The effect can also be seen with

>dietary intake of only modest amounts of serotonin, and there has actually

>been described in the medical literature, a tribe of South Sea islanders

>with right heart fibrosis as a result of eating green banana mush, which

>poisons them with its serotonin content. "

I'd expect that anyone eating a nutrient-dense diet will be getting enough

B-to reach toxic levels of serotonin in the blood.

-

[Guest guest]

I find this post very interesting and would like to understand more

of what you mean by the fact that most folks aren't pushing this diet

to the limit to get results. Can you get more specific? Of give

some examples?

As NT is set up as a cookbook, I can see how people would just pick

and choose certain recipes and still eat the way they used to. I

didn't realize the importance of certain aspects of this diet until I

read Weston Price's book and others, like Henry Bieler. Now, I pick

and choose from the various recipes in NT according to what I know my

body will handle well. But I know I'm not even applying all of the

principles yet. In your opinion and from experience, what are the

more important aspects of NT that most of your patients get results

from applying?? Raw foods/meats?

Also, what sort of practitioner are you? I'm interested to know your

background and how you learned to apply NT principles to healing and

what sort of results you are getting with it....

Thanks for sharing,

Becky

>

>

> This is an interesting letter and it may serve to spell out some

> differences between those of us who are within, broadly speaking,

the

> Nourishing Traditions family.

>

> First I would like to point out that I do not believe there is a

> generational passing on of any depletion. You may in fact inherit a

> weakness for such, but whether that is manifested as such depends

on many

> factors, the paramount issues being lifestyle and diet. This

assumption

> however causes many health practitioners to look in the wrong

direction

> when faced with patients who have such problems.

>

> Second, having dealt with a number of people facing these problems,

it is

> rare to find someone who has " tried everything " . They usually have

tried

> a lot of things within a narrow protocol and oftentimes have missed

some

> of the most obvious things, but more on that later.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> <L-Trytophan and 5HTP can be extraordinary support for the intense

> cravings you speak of in the afternoon.>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Man oh man, where does one begin? There is a school of thought

within the

> broad field of nutrition and diet, that most isolated supplements

in the

> long run tend to be toxic for the body, and particularly amino acid

and

> enzyme supplementation are looked at not as support but rather as a

> crutch, not coaxing the body to eventually repair the damage

(however it

> got there) but rather causing the body to become dependent on such

> protocol. True they can sometimes bring immediate relief in the

short

> term but in the long run do not help the body move forward. I could

say

> so much more about these two in particular but I will leave that for

> another time. Suffice it to say there is a risk present here that

is not

> at all present with what I suggested in an earlier post.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> <snip> <The calm, serenity and lack of

> interest in carbos can be dramatic and immediate for many, many

> people.>

>

>

>

>

>

> You have effectively shut down the body's signalling mechanism for

> telling us that something is wrong by feeding it chemically rather

than

> providing it what it needs in terms of bioactive nutrients found in

food,

> not chemical supplementation. As I said in a previous post,

acknowledge

> and trust the craving, just make sure it is satisfied in the proper

way.

> Eventually both the craving and the underlying problem causing the

> craving will be gone. I know that sounds strange in todays world

but I

> have found it to be true over and over again.

>

>

>

>

>

> <snip>

>

>

> <Regarding how long one would stay on these--it really varies. You

> literally can " restock " your supply of these mood

neurotransmitters,

> as there are storage sights which get replenished. Eventually--

from

> 3 months to 1 year--you'll either notice that upon forgetting to

take

> them that you didn't have a relapse, or you'll start to feel the

> effects of too much seratonin, which would be similar to some

> symptoms of not enough--crabby, short-tempered. They are

absolutely

> not habit forming, and from everything I have seen, heard,

> experienced, and studied, they are safe.>

>

>

>

>

> You can accomplish the same results in the same time frame with food

> alone. And I am highly suspicious of that last sentence for a

number of

> reasons, not the least being studies I have read talking about the

> dangers of amino acid supplementation.

>

>

>

>

>

> <My feeling is that, yes, in an ideal world, a great diet a la NT

> would be sufficient to restore any neurotransmitter deficiency.

And

> many people do; simply eating more nutrient dense foods, especially

> fat and protein, eliminates the cravings. But as a culture so many

> of us have become so far out of balance with our biochemistry that

> more intervention is needed.>

>

>

> Several points.

>

> 1. While eating nutrient dense foods sometimes eliminates cravings -

her

> answer is a very simplistic brush off of a specific dietary

approach. The

> point I'm making is to eat a more nutrient dense form of the kind

of food

> being craved, while making other very radical changes in the diet.

>

> Most of the time we had our patients simply give up cooked foods

for the

> moment, introducing them to grass fed butter, cream, and cultured

milk,

> steak tartar, beef carpaccio, raw fish dishes, fermented veggies and

> veggie salads, and on occasion a little cooked starch.

>

> If they were craving honey they could eat to their hearts content.

One

> lady had a fetish for ice cream, okay we trusted her body, and

showed her

> how to make raw ice cream. She ate a ton it, but a month later she

had

> lost weight and her craving for ice cream. Another gentlemen,

scared to

> death, stopped taking his 5HTP while simultaneously downing tons of

raw

> meat with honey. He had absolutely no symptoms and was ecstatic. I

did

> not try to subdue the craving but rather acknowledged it and let it

be

> the guide as to how best to treat the patient/client.

>

>

> 2. Yes, many are very out of balance, and you can look at that as a

need

> for more intervention, ala the medical model, or a need to move

further

> along the Price/Pottenger continuum, and mimic some of the

traditional

> groups whose diets were 90-100% raw and thus had many more bioactive

> nutrients available in their diet.

>

> I fear that the problem with many folk who adopt the NT way and

remain

> boggled by many problems is that they don't go far enough in

pushing the

> diet to the limit and simply replace rather haphazardly their

previous

> foods. And when they don't find relief they end up falling back on a

> paradigm which contradicts some of the basic tenants of Price's

work.

>

> The raw/cooked combo works for many but not all and the

> Price/Pottenger/NT continuum certainly has a nearly raw food

perspective

> within it, even if its not evident on this list. That perspective

works

> in situations like this and renders obsolete the need for toxic

> supplementation.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> <I don't want to simplify this too much; usually there is a

> constellation of imbalances which needed to be addressed

> simultaneously. Food allergies are a big one. Many are allergic

to

> such things as gluten --even pre-soaked, sprouted, etc.-- and food

> allergies can aggravate food cravings.>

>

>

>

> Yes, getting rid of grains in this situation is a must.

>

>

>

>

> <Chromium and other mineral

> def. can be big.>

>

>

>

>

> The honey solves this problem as do the other raw foods. We can get

> caught up in a whole complex of approaches as we find one thing

doesn't

> work and we move to another. Sometimes though we need to trust what

got

> us here in the first place, our commitment to the foods of tradition

> provided for in a nourishing way. That may mean taking a closer

look at

> things that are right under our nose.

>

> Lierre, I wish you well as try to find the right path.

>

>

[Guest guest]

First I would like to point out that I do not believe there is a

> generational passing on of any depletion.

I am apologizing for doing this in advance however I feel this is

important enough to the people on this forum that this perspective be

addressed. This first statement from Chris' friend sets the stage

for the rest of the post and also sets the stage for the innaccuracy

of her position. Firstly whether on believes a depletion is passed

on or not is not relevant, much like whether we believe in the tooth

fairy or not is irrelevant. I recommend for everyone to read the

book schrodingers cats if you cant find it email me and I'll give you

a number to call to get it. Most of you are familiar with this

already probably. If you like kitties, as my wife does I'm sorry but

it's still the best book on this topic. Schrodinger clearly without

and doubt irrefutably showed that if you deplete the diets of one

generation of cats you without question would damage the next

generation and their capacity to assimilate nutrients which obviously

results in depletion and malnutrition. He also showed it only took 3

successive generations of this depletion to cause the cats to be

completely sterile. The notion of not believing that depletion is

inherited could not me more innacurate.

Now with that said I am somewhat familiar with Dr. Ross' work

and as a medical intervetion have no problem with it what so ever.

However to portray supplementing high concentrations of synthetic

amino acids for someone is no light matter and is not healthful.

Just like taking a heart drug is not healthful for the patient ever,

however it may be necessary in the short term to save their life. So

yes for those who ACTUALLY have tried everything and who are very

dysfunctional and can't get the help in a non invasive way this

synthetic amino acid approach (which in principle is no different

than a drug) is absolutely wonderful. However besides the extremely

important fact the very theories used in brain chemistry function by

Dr. Ross are strongly questioned by many very progressive peers in

her field, it should not be thought of as something to do lightly.

My point here I suppose is to address that most of all. If you can't

get the benefits of your naturally occuring amino acids in your foods

as many many many people can't, and you need to use high

concentrations of synthetically manufactured amino acid (drugs) then

something is without question wrong with your capacity for

assimilation and breakdown of these important nutrients. It is short

sighted and irresponsible to consider any other possibility until

that is assesed and corrected if need be. I agree with the notion

that people become so imbalanced and so impared that radical changes

must be made as was stated, however people become so imbalanced and

impared in other systems of the body like the immune system and the

appropriate response for making them well again is certainly not

synthetically manufactured antibiotics. The same principle applies

to every other system in the body to. Brain included.

I really don't like taking other posts to task however with the

casualness of this particular post I felt it important to clarify

some of these points. And again I want to emphasize Dr. Ross' work

has been productive for people however in my mind and in the

knowledge of what many people on this board find important I find it

to be a near last resort as opposed to a harmless solution anyone

should use.

All My Best,

Dr. Marasco, BS,DC

Cincinnati, Oh

--- In @y..., " beckymauldin2001 " <beckymauldin@h...>

wrote:

> I find this post very interesting and would like to understand more

> of what you mean by the fact that most folks aren't pushing this

diet

> to the limit to get results. Can you get more specific? Of give

> some examples?

>

> As NT is set up as a cookbook, I can see how people would just pick

> and choose certain recipes and still eat the way they used to. I

> didn't realize the importance of certain aspects of this diet until

I

> read Weston Price's book and others, like Henry Bieler. Now, I

pick

> and choose from the various recipes in NT according to what I know

my

> body will handle well. But I know I'm not even applying all of the

> principles yet. In your opinion and from experience, what are the

> more important aspects of NT that most of your patients get results

> from applying?? Raw foods/meats?

>

> Also, what sort of practitioner are you? I'm interested to know

your

> background and how you learned to apply NT principles to healing

and

> what sort of results you are getting with it....

>

> Thanks for sharing,

> Becky

>

>

> >

> >

> > This is an interesting letter and it may serve to spell out some

> > differences between those of us who are within, broadly speaking,

> the

> > Nourishing Traditions family.

> >

> > First I would like to point out that I do not believe there is a

> > generational passing on of any depletion. You may in fact inherit

a

> > weakness for such, but whether that is manifested as such depends

> on many

> > factors, the paramount issues being lifestyle and diet. This

> assumption

> > however causes many health practitioners to look in the wrong

> direction

> > when faced with patients who have such problems.

> >

> > Second, having dealt with a number of people facing these

problems,

> it is

> > rare to find someone who has " tried everything " . They usually

have

> tried

> > a lot of things within a narrow protocol and oftentimes have

missed

> some

> > of the most obvious things, but more on that later.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > <L-Trytophan and 5HTP can be extraordinary support for the

intense

> > cravings you speak of in the afternoon.>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Man oh man, where does one begin? There is a school of thought

> within the

> > broad field of nutrition and diet, that most isolated supplements

> in the

> > long run tend to be toxic for the body, and particularly amino

acid

> and

> > enzyme supplementation are looked at not as support but rather as

a

> > crutch, not coaxing the body to eventually repair the damage

> (however it

> > got there) but rather causing the body to become dependent on such

> > protocol. True they can sometimes bring immediate relief in the

> short

> > term but in the long run do not help the body move forward. I

could

> say

> > so much more about these two in particular but I will leave that

for

> > another time. Suffice it to say there is a risk present here that

> is not

> > at all present with what I suggested in an earlier post.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > <snip> <The calm, serenity and lack of

> > interest in carbos can be dramatic and immediate for many, many

> > people.>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > You have effectively shut down the body's signalling mechanism for

> > telling us that something is wrong by feeding it chemically

rather

> than

> > providing it what it needs in terms of bioactive nutrients found

in

> food,

> > not chemical supplementation. As I said in a previous post,

> acknowledge

> > and trust the craving, just make sure it is satisfied in the

proper

> way.

> > Eventually both the craving and the underlying problem causing the

> > craving will be gone. I know that sounds strange in todays world

> but I

> > have found it to be true over and over again.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > <snip>

> >

> >

> > <Regarding how long one would stay on these--it really varies.

You

> > literally can " restock " your supply of these mood

> neurotransmitters,

> > as there are storage sights which get replenished. Eventually--

> from

> > 3 months to 1 year--you'll either notice that upon forgetting to

> take

> > them that you didn't have a relapse, or you'll start to feel the

> > effects of too much seratonin, which would be similar to some

> > symptoms of not enough--crabby, short-tempered. They are

> absolutely

> > not habit forming, and from everything I have seen, heard,

> > experienced, and studied, they are safe.>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > You can accomplish the same results in the same time frame with

food

> > alone. And I am highly suspicious of that last sentence for a

> number of

> > reasons, not the least being studies I have read talking about the

> > dangers of amino acid supplementation.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > <My feeling is that, yes, in an ideal world, a great diet a la NT

> > would be sufficient to restore any neurotransmitter deficiency.

> And

> > many people do; simply eating more nutrient dense foods,

especially

> > fat and protein, eliminates the cravings. But as a culture so

many

> > of us have become so far out of balance with our biochemistry

that

> > more intervention is needed.>

> >

> >

> > Several points.

> >

> > 1. While eating nutrient dense foods sometimes eliminates

cravings -

> her

> > answer is a very simplistic brush off of a specific dietary

> approach. The

> > point I'm making is to eat a more nutrient dense form of the kind

> of food

> > being craved, while making other very radical changes in the diet.

> >

> > Most of the time we had our patients simply give up cooked foods

> for the

> > moment, introducing them to grass fed butter, cream, and cultured

> milk,

> > steak tartar, beef carpaccio, raw fish dishes, fermented veggies

and

> > veggie salads, and on occasion a little cooked starch.

> >

> > If they were craving honey they could eat to their hearts

content.

> One

> > lady had a fetish for ice cream, okay we trusted her body, and

> showed her

> > how to make raw ice cream. She ate a ton it, but a month later

she

> had

> > lost weight and her craving for ice cream. Another gentlemen,

> scared to

> > death, stopped taking his 5HTP while simultaneously downing tons

of

> raw

> > meat with honey. He had absolutely no symptoms and was ecstatic.

I

> did

> > not try to subdue the craving but rather acknowledged it and let

it

> be

> > the guide as to how best to treat the patient/client.

> >

> >

> > 2. Yes, many are very out of balance, and you can look at that as

a

> need

> > for more intervention, ala the medical model, or a need to move

> further

> > along the Price/Pottenger continuum, and mimic some of the

> traditional

> > groups whose diets were 90-100% raw and thus had many more

bioactive

> > nutrients available in their diet.

> >

> > I fear that the problem with many folk who adopt the NT way and

> remain

> > boggled by many problems is that they don't go far enough in

> pushing the

> > diet to the limit and simply replace rather haphazardly their

> previous

> > foods. And when they don't find relief they end up falling back

on a

> > paradigm which contradicts some of the basic tenants of Price's

> work.

> >

> > The raw/cooked combo works for many but not all and the

> > Price/Pottenger/NT continuum certainly has a nearly raw food

> perspective

> > within it, even if its not evident on this list. That perspective

> works

> > in situations like this and renders obsolete the need for toxic

> > supplementation.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > <I don't want to simplify this too much; usually there is a

> > constellation of imbalances which needed to be addressed

> > simultaneously. Food allergies are a big one. Many are allergic

> to

> > such things as gluten --even pre-soaked, sprouted, etc.-- and

food

> > allergies can aggravate food cravings.>

> >

> >

> >

> > Yes, getting rid of grains in this situation is a must.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > <Chromium and other mineral

> > def. can be big.>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > The honey solves this problem as do the other raw foods. We can

get

> > caught up in a whole complex of approaches as we find one thing

> doesn't

> > work and we move to another. Sometimes though we need to trust

what

> got

> > us here in the first place, our commitment to the foods of

tradition

> > provided for in a nourishing way. That may mean taking a closer

> look at

> > things that are right under our nose.

> >

> > Lierre, I wish you well as try to find the right path.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hello Dr. Marasco,

I am forwarding to Marie all the recent responses so she can

respond. However, in the meantime I must point out that the

statement you attribute to Marie below appears to be made by someone

else. She said:

" The clients who come through 's

clinic, like you, have usually tried everything. The family history

you describe is like countless histories I heard from my clients;

when there is a generational passing on of depleted seratonin,

evidenced by family alcoholism, drug abuse, depression and Prozac,

etc., it can be an amazing relief to discover that this in NOT just

family emotional dysfunction--this is brain chemistry deficiency. "

So it seems you should address your comments on this issue to the

actual author.

Cheers,

> > I find this post very interesting and would like to understand

more

> > of what you mean by the fact that most folks aren't pushing this

> diet

> > to the limit to get results. Can you get more specific? Of give

> > some examples?

> >

> > As NT is set up as a cookbook, I can see how people would just

pick

> > and choose certain recipes and still eat the way they used to. I

> > didn't realize the importance of certain aspects of this diet

until

> I

> > read Weston Price's book and others, like Henry Bieler. Now, I

> pick

> > and choose from the various recipes in NT according to what I

know

> my

> > body will handle well. But I know I'm not even applying all of

the

> > principles yet. In your opinion and from experience, what are

the

> > more important aspects of NT that most of your patients get

results

> > from applying?? Raw foods/meats?

> >

> > Also, what sort of practitioner are you? I'm interested to know

> your

> > background and how you learned to apply NT principles to healing

> and

> > what sort of results you are getting with it....

> >

> > Thanks for sharing,

> > Becky

> >

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > This is an interesting letter and it may serve to spell out some

> > > differences between those of us who are within, broadly

speaking,

> > the

> > > Nourishing Traditions family.

> > >

> > > First I would like to point out that I do not believe there is a

> > > generational passing on of any depletion. You may in fact

inherit

> a

> > > weakness for such, but whether that is manifested as such

depends

> > on many

> > > factors, the paramount issues being lifestyle and diet. This

> > assumption

> > > however causes many health practitioners to look in the wrong

> > direction

> > > when faced with patients who have such problems.

> > >

> > > Second, having dealt with a number of people facing these

> problems,

> > it is

> > > rare to find someone who has " tried everything " . They usually

> have

> > tried

> > > a lot of things within a narrow protocol and oftentimes have

> missed

> > some

> > > of the most obvious things, but more on that later.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > <L-Trytophan and 5HTP can be extraordinary support for the

> intense

> > > cravings you speak of in the afternoon.>

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Man oh man, where does one begin? There is a school of thought

> > within the

> > > broad field of nutrition and diet, that most isolated

supplements

> > in the

> > > long run tend to be toxic for the body, and particularly amino

> acid

> > and

> > > enzyme supplementation are looked at not as support but rather

as

> a

> > > crutch, not coaxing the body to eventually repair the damage

> > (however it

> > > got there) but rather causing the body to become dependent on

such

> > > protocol. True they can sometimes bring immediate relief in the

> > short

> > > term but in the long run do not help the body move forward. I

> could

> > say

> > > so much more about these two in particular but I will leave

that

> for

> > > another time. Suffice it to say there is a risk present here

that

> > is not

> > > at all present with what I suggested in an earlier post.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > <snip> <The calm, serenity and lack of

> > > interest in carbos can be dramatic and immediate for many, many

> > > people.>

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > You have effectively shut down the body's signalling mechanism

for

> > > telling us that something is wrong by feeding it chemically

> rather

> > than

> > > providing it what it needs in terms of bioactive nutrients

found

> in

> > food,

> > > not chemical supplementation. As I said in a previous post,

> > acknowledge

> > > and trust the craving, just make sure it is satisfied in the

> proper

> > way.

> > > Eventually both the craving and the underlying problem causing

the

> > > craving will be gone. I know that sounds strange in todays

world

> > but I

> > > have found it to be true over and over again.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > <snip>

> > >

> > >

> > > <Regarding how long one would stay on these--it really varies.

> You

> > > literally can " restock " your supply of these mood

> > neurotransmitters,

> > > as there are storage sights which get replenished. Eventually--

> > from

> > > 3 months to 1 year--you'll either notice that upon forgetting

to

> > take

> > > them that you didn't have a relapse, or you'll start to feel

the

> > > effects of too much seratonin, which would be similar to some

> > > symptoms of not enough--crabby, short-tempered. They are

> > absolutely

> > > not habit forming, and from everything I have seen, heard,

> > > experienced, and studied, they are safe.>

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > You can accomplish the same results in the same time frame with

> food

> > > alone. And I am highly suspicious of that last sentence for a

> > number of

> > > reasons, not the least being studies I have read talking about

the

> > > dangers of amino acid supplementation.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > <My feeling is that, yes, in an ideal world, a great diet a la

NT

> > > would be sufficient to restore any neurotransmitter

deficiency.

> > And

> > > many people do; simply eating more nutrient dense foods,

> especially

> > > fat and protein, eliminates the cravings. But as a culture so

> many

> > > of us have become so far out of balance with our biochemistry

> that

> > > more intervention is needed.>

> > >

> > >

> > > Several points.

> > >

> > > 1. While eating nutrient dense foods sometimes eliminates

> cravings -

> > her

> > > answer is a very simplistic brush off of a specific dietary

> > approach. The

> > > point I'm making is to eat a more nutrient dense form of the

kind

> > of food

> > > being craved, while making other very radical changes in the

diet.

> > >

> > > Most of the time we had our patients simply give up cooked

foods

> > for the

> > > moment, introducing them to grass fed butter, cream, and

cultured

> > milk,

> > > steak tartar, beef carpaccio, raw fish dishes, fermented

veggies

> and

> > > veggie salads, and on occasion a little cooked starch.

> > >

> > > If they were craving honey they could eat to their hearts

> content.

> > One

> > > lady had a fetish for ice cream, okay we trusted her body, and

> > showed her

> > > how to make raw ice cream. She ate a ton it, but a month later

> she

> > had

> > > lost weight and her craving for ice cream. Another gentlemen,

> > scared to

> > > death, stopped taking his 5HTP while simultaneously downing

tons

> of

> > raw

> > > meat with honey. He had absolutely no symptoms and was

ecstatic.

> I

> > did

> > > not try to subdue the craving but rather acknowledged it and

let

> it

> > be

> > > the guide as to how best to treat the patient/client.

> > >

> > >

> > > 2. Yes, many are very out of balance, and you can look at that

as

> a

> > need

> > > for more intervention, ala the medical model, or a need to move

> > further

> > > along the Price/Pottenger continuum, and mimic some of the

> > traditional

> > > groups whose diets were 90-100% raw and thus had many more

> bioactive

> > > nutrients available in their diet.

> > >

> > > I fear that the problem with many folk who adopt the NT way and

> > remain

> > > boggled by many problems is that they don't go far enough in

> > pushing the

> > > diet to the limit and simply replace rather haphazardly their

> > previous

> > > foods. And when they don't find relief they end up falling back

> on a

> > > paradigm which contradicts some of the basic tenants of Price's

> > work.

> > >

> > > The raw/cooked combo works for many but not all and the

> > > Price/Pottenger/NT continuum certainly has a nearly raw food

> > perspective

> > > within it, even if its not evident on this list. That

perspective

> > works

> > > in situations like this and renders obsolete the need for toxic

> > > supplementation.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > <I don't want to simplify this too much; usually there is a

> > > constellation of imbalances which needed to be addressed

> > > simultaneously. Food allergies are a big one. Many are

allergic

> > to

> > > such things as gluten --even pre-soaked, sprouted, etc.-- and

> food

> > > allergies can aggravate food cravings.>

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Yes, getting rid of grains in this situation is a must.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > <Chromium and other mineral

> > > def. can be big.>

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > The honey solves this problem as do the other raw foods. We can

> get

> > > caught up in a whole complex of approaches as we find one thing

> > doesn't

> > > work and we move to another. Sometimes though we need to trust

> what

> > got

> > > us here in the first place, our commitment to the foods of

> tradition

> > > provided for in a nourishing way. That may mean taking a closer

> > look at

> > > things that are right under our nose.

> > >

> > > Lierre, I wish you well as try to find the right path.

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Hey ,

I don't think I understand. I went back and re read the post, it

doesn't seem that she is quoting someone else. And quite honestly my

concern was much more the statements than who said them. It's

certainly not a personal thing. So whoever may have made the

statements is welcome to read my posts. Thanks.

DMM

> > > I find this post very interesting and would like to understand

> more

> > > of what you mean by the fact that most folks aren't pushing

this

> > diet

> > > to the limit to get results. Can you get more specific? Of

give

> > > some examples?

> > >

> > > As NT is set up as a cookbook, I can see how people would just

> pick

> > > and choose certain recipes and still eat the way they used to.

I

> > > didn't realize the importance of certain aspects of this diet

> until

> > I

> > > read Weston Price's book and others, like Henry Bieler. Now, I

> > pick

> > > and choose from the various recipes in NT according to what I

> know

> > my

> > > body will handle well. But I know I'm not even applying all of

> the

> > > principles yet. In your opinion and from experience, what are

> the

> > > more important aspects of NT that most of your patients get

> results

> > > from applying?? Raw foods/meats?

> > >

> > > Also, what sort of practitioner are you? I'm interested to

know

> > your

> > > background and how you learned to apply NT principles to

healing

> > and

> > > what sort of results you are getting with it....

> > >

> > > Thanks for sharing,

> > > Becky

> > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > This is an interesting letter and it may serve to spell out

some

> > > > differences between those of us who are within, broadly

> speaking,

> > > the

> > > > Nourishing Traditions family.

> > > >

> > > > First I would like to point out that I do not believe there

is a

> > > > generational passing on of any depletion. You may in fact

> inherit

> > a

> > > > weakness for such, but whether that is manifested as such

> depends

> > > on many

> > > > factors, the paramount issues being lifestyle and diet. This

> > > assumption

> > > > however causes many health practitioners to look in the wrong

> > > direction

> > > > when faced with patients who have such problems.

> > > >

> > > > Second, having dealt with a number of people facing these

> > problems,

> > > it is

> > > > rare to find someone who has " tried everything " . They usually

> > have

> > > tried

> > > > a lot of things within a narrow protocol and oftentimes have

> > missed

> > > some

> > > > of the most obvious things, but more on that later.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > <L-Trytophan and 5HTP can be extraordinary support for the

> > intense

> > > > cravings you speak of in the afternoon.>

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Man oh man, where does one begin? There is a school of

thought

> > > within the

> > > > broad field of nutrition and diet, that most isolated

> supplements

> > > in the

> > > > long run tend to be toxic for the body, and particularly

amino

> > acid

> > > and

> > > > enzyme supplementation are looked at not as support but

rather

> as

> > a

> > > > crutch, not coaxing the body to eventually repair the damage

> > > (however it

> > > > got there) but rather causing the body to become dependent on

> such

> > > > protocol. True they can sometimes bring immediate relief in

the

> > > short

> > > > term but in the long run do not help the body move forward. I

> > could

> > > say

> > > > so much more about these two in particular but I will leave

> that

> > for

> > > > another time. Suffice it to say there is a risk present here

> that

> > > is not

> > > > at all present with what I suggested in an earlier post.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > <snip> <The calm, serenity and lack of

> > > > interest in carbos can be dramatic and immediate for many,

many

> > > > people.>

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > You have effectively shut down the body's signalling

mechanism

> for

> > > > telling us that something is wrong by feeding it chemically

> > rather

> > > than

> > > > providing it what it needs in terms of bioactive nutrients

> found

> > in

> > > food,

> > > > not chemical supplementation. As I said in a previous post,

> > > acknowledge

> > > > and trust the craving, just make sure it is satisfied in the

> > proper

> > > way.

> > > > Eventually both the craving and the underlying problem

causing

> the

> > > > craving will be gone. I know that sounds strange in todays

> world

> > > but I

> > > > have found it to be true over and over again.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > <snip>

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > <Regarding how long one would stay on these--it really

varies.

> > You

> > > > literally can " restock " your supply of these mood

> > > neurotransmitters,

> > > > as there are storage sights which get replenished.

Eventually--

> > > from

> > > > 3 months to 1 year--you'll either notice that upon forgetting

> to

> > > take

> > > > them that you didn't have a relapse, or you'll start to feel

> the

> > > > effects of too much seratonin, which would be similar to some

> > > > symptoms of not enough--crabby, short-tempered. They are

> > > absolutely

> > > > not habit forming, and from everything I have seen, heard,

> > > > experienced, and studied, they are safe.>

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > You can accomplish the same results in the same time frame

with

> > food

> > > > alone. And I am highly suspicious of that last sentence for a

> > > number of

> > > > reasons, not the least being studies I have read talking

about

> the

> > > > dangers of amino acid supplementation.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > <My feeling is that, yes, in an ideal world, a great diet a

la

> NT

> > > > would be sufficient to restore any neurotransmitter

> deficiency.

> > > And

> > > > many people do; simply eating more nutrient dense foods,

> > especially

> > > > fat and protein, eliminates the cravings. But as a culture

so

> > many

> > > > of us have become so far out of balance with our biochemistry

> > that

> > > > more intervention is needed.>

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Several points.

> > > >

> > > > 1. While eating nutrient dense foods sometimes eliminates

> > cravings -

> > > her

> > > > answer is a very simplistic brush off of a specific dietary

> > > approach. The

> > > > point I'm making is to eat a more nutrient dense form of the

> kind

> > > of food

> > > > being craved, while making other very radical changes in the

> diet.

> > > >

> > > > Most of the time we had our patients simply give up cooked

> foods

> > > for the

> > > > moment, introducing them to grass fed butter, cream, and

> cultured

> > > milk,

> > > > steak tartar, beef carpaccio, raw fish dishes, fermented

> veggies

> > and

> > > > veggie salads, and on occasion a little cooked starch.

> > > >

> > > > If they were craving honey they could eat to their hearts

> > content.

> > > One

> > > > lady had a fetish for ice cream, okay we trusted her body,

and

> > > showed her

> > > > how to make raw ice cream. She ate a ton it, but a month

later

> > she

> > > had

> > > > lost weight and her craving for ice cream. Another gentlemen,

> > > scared to

> > > > death, stopped taking his 5HTP while simultaneously downing

> tons

> > of

> > > raw

> > > > meat with honey. He had absolutely no symptoms and was

> ecstatic.

> > I

> > > did

> > > > not try to subdue the craving but rather acknowledged it and

> let

> > it

> > > be

> > > > the guide as to how best to treat the patient/client.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > 2. Yes, many are very out of balance, and you can look at

that

> as

> > a

> > > need

> > > > for more intervention, ala the medical model, or a need to

move

> > > further

> > > > along the Price/Pottenger continuum, and mimic some of the

> > > traditional

> > > > groups whose diets were 90-100% raw and thus had many more

> > bioactive

> > > > nutrients available in their diet.

> > > >

> > > > I fear that the problem with many folk who adopt the NT way

and

> > > remain

> > > > boggled by many problems is that they don't go far enough in

> > > pushing the

> > > > diet to the limit and simply replace rather haphazardly their

> > > previous

> > > > foods. And when they don't find relief they end up falling

back

> > on a

> > > > paradigm which contradicts some of the basic tenants of

Price's

> > > work.

> > > >

> > > > The raw/cooked combo works for many but not all and the

> > > > Price/Pottenger/NT continuum certainly has a nearly raw food

> > > perspective

> > > > within it, even if its not evident on this list. That

> perspective

> > > works

> > > > in situations like this and renders obsolete the need for

toxic

> > > > supplementation.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > <I don't want to simplify this too much; usually there is a

> > > > constellation of imbalances which needed to be addressed

> > > > simultaneously. Food allergies are a big one. Many are

> allergic

> > > to

> > > > such things as gluten --even pre-soaked, sprouted, etc.-- and

> > food

> > > > allergies can aggravate food cravings.>

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Yes, getting rid of grains in this situation is a must.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > <Chromium and other mineral

> > > > def. can be big.>

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > The honey solves this problem as do the other raw foods. We

can

> > get

> > > > caught up in a whole complex of approaches as we find one

thing

> > > doesn't

> > > > work and we move to another. Sometimes though we need to

trust

> > what

> > > got

> > > > us here in the first place, our commitment to the foods of

> > tradition

> > > > provided for in a nourishing way. That may mean taking a

closer

> > > look at

> > > > things that are right under our nose.

> > > >

> > > > Lierre, I wish you well as try to find the right path.

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Hello again,

It wouldn't have been a big deal but when you quoted the first

statement attributed to " Chris' friend " you said that it set the tone

for the rest of her post. It just helps to know exactly who one is

responding to, and that is difficult to determine from your

exchange. I think you are addressing bianca3 who wrote

> > > First I would like to point out that I do not believe there is a

> > > > generational passing on of any depletion.

But it definitely seems that you had issues with Marie's post as well.

Anyway, let the discussion continue....

> > > > I find this post very interesting and would like to

understand

> > more

> > > > of what you mean by the fact that most folks aren't pushing

> this

> > > diet

> > > > to the limit to get results. Can you get more specific? Of

> give

> > > > some examples?

> > > >

> > > > As NT is set up as a cookbook, I can see how people would

just

> > pick

> > > > and choose certain recipes and still eat the way they used

to.

> I

> > > > didn't realize the importance of certain aspects of this diet

> > until

> > > I

> > > > read Weston Price's book and others, like Henry Bieler. Now,

I

> > > pick

> > > > and choose from the various recipes in NT according to what I

> > know

> > > my

> > > > body will handle well. But I know I'm not even applying all

of

> > the

> > > > principles yet. In your opinion and from experience, what

are

> > the

> > > > more important aspects of NT that most of your patients get

> > results

> > > > from applying?? Raw foods/meats?

> > > >

> > > > Also, what sort of practitioner are you? I'm interested to

> know

> > > your

> > > > background and how you learned to apply NT principles to

> healing

> > > and

> > > > what sort of results you are getting with it....

> > > >

> > > > Thanks for sharing,

> > > > Becky

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > This is an interesting letter and it may serve to spell out

> some

> > > > > differences between those of us who are within, broadly

> > speaking,

> > > > the

> > > > > Nourishing Traditions family.

> > > > >

> > > > > First I would like to point out that I do not believe there

> is a

> > > > > generational passing on of any depletion. You may in fact

> > inherit

> > > a

> > > > > weakness for such, but whether that is manifested as such

> > depends

> > > > on many

> > > > > factors, the paramount issues being lifestyle and diet.

This

> > > > assumption

> > > > > however causes many health practitioners to look in the

wrong

> > > > direction

> > > > > when faced with patients who have such problems.

> > > > >

> > > > > Second, having dealt with a number of people facing these

> > > problems,

> > > > it is

> > > > > rare to find someone who has " tried everything " . They

usually

> > > have

> > > > tried

> > > > > a lot of things within a narrow protocol and oftentimes

have

> > > missed

> > > > some

> > > > > of the most obvious things, but more on that later.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > <L-Trytophan and 5HTP can be extraordinary support for the

> > > intense

> > > > > cravings you speak of in the afternoon.>

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Man oh man, where does one begin? There is a school of

> thought

> > > > within the

> > > > > broad field of nutrition and diet, that most isolated

> > supplements

> > > > in the

> > > > > long run tend to be toxic for the body, and particularly

> amino

> > > acid

> > > > and

> > > > > enzyme supplementation are looked at not as support but

> rather

> > as

> > > a

> > > > > crutch, not coaxing the body to eventually repair the

damage

> > > > (however it

> > > > > got there) but rather causing the body to become dependent

on

> > such

> > > > > protocol. True they can sometimes bring immediate relief in

> the

> > > > short

> > > > > term but in the long run do not help the body move forward.

I

> > > could

> > > > say

> > > > > so much more about these two in particular but I will leave

> > that

> > > for

> > > > > another time. Suffice it to say there is a risk present

here

> > that

> > > > is not

> > > > > at all present with what I suggested in an earlier post.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > <snip> <The calm, serenity and lack of

> > > > > interest in carbos can be dramatic and immediate for many,

> many

> > > > > people.>

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > You have effectively shut down the body's signalling

> mechanism

> > for

> > > > > telling us that something is wrong by feeding it chemically

> > > rather

> > > > than

> > > > > providing it what it needs in terms of bioactive nutrients

> > found

> > > in

> > > > food,

> > > > > not chemical supplementation. As I said in a previous post,

> > > > acknowledge

> > > > > and trust the craving, just make sure it is satisfied in

the

> > > proper

> > > > way.

> > > > > Eventually both the craving and the underlying problem

> causing

> > the

> > > > > craving will be gone. I know that sounds strange in todays

> > world

> > > > but I

> > > > > have found it to be true over and over again.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > <snip>

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > <Regarding how long one would stay on these--it really

> varies.

> > > You

> > > > > literally can " restock " your supply of these mood

> > > > neurotransmitters,

> > > > > as there are storage sights which get replenished.

> Eventually--

> > > > from

> > > > > 3 months to 1 year--you'll either notice that upon

forgetting

> > to

> > > > take

> > > > > them that you didn't have a relapse, or you'll start to

feel

> > the

> > > > > effects of too much seratonin, which would be similar to

some

> > > > > symptoms of not enough--crabby, short-tempered. They are

> > > > absolutely

> > > > > not habit forming, and from everything I have seen, heard,

> > > > > experienced, and studied, they are safe.>

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > You can accomplish the same results in the same time frame

> with

> > > food

> > > > > alone. And I am highly suspicious of that last sentence for

a

> > > > number of

> > > > > reasons, not the least being studies I have read talking

> about

> > the

> > > > > dangers of amino acid supplementation.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > <My feeling is that, yes, in an ideal world, a great diet a

> la

> > NT

> > > > > would be sufficient to restore any neurotransmitter

> > deficiency.

> > > > And

> > > > > many people do; simply eating more nutrient dense foods,

> > > especially

> > > > > fat and protein, eliminates the cravings. But as a culture

> so

> > > many

> > > > > of us have become so far out of balance with our

biochemistry

> > > that

> > > > > more intervention is needed.>

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Several points.

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. While eating nutrient dense foods sometimes eliminates

> > > cravings -

> > > > her

> > > > > answer is a very simplistic brush off of a specific dietary

> > > > approach. The

> > > > > point I'm making is to eat a more nutrient dense form of

the

> > kind

> > > > of food

> > > > > being craved, while making other very radical changes in

the

> > diet.

> > > > >

> > > > > Most of the time we had our patients simply give up cooked

> > foods

> > > > for the

> > > > > moment, introducing them to grass fed butter, cream, and

> > cultured

> > > > milk,

> > > > > steak tartar, beef carpaccio, raw fish dishes, fermented

> > veggies

> > > and

> > > > > veggie salads, and on occasion a little cooked starch.

> > > > >

> > > > > If they were craving honey they could eat to their hearts

> > > content.

> > > > One

> > > > > lady had a fetish for ice cream, okay we trusted her body,

> and

> > > > showed her

> > > > > how to make raw ice cream. She ate a ton it, but a month

> later

> > > she

> > > > had

> > > > > lost weight and her craving for ice cream. Another

gentlemen,

> > > > scared to

> > > > > death, stopped taking his 5HTP while simultaneously downing

> > tons

> > > of

> > > > raw

> > > > > meat with honey. He had absolutely no symptoms and was

> > ecstatic.

> > > I

> > > > did

> > > > > not try to subdue the craving but rather acknowledged it

and

> > let

> > > it

> > > > be

> > > > > the guide as to how best to treat the patient/client.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > 2. Yes, many are very out of balance, and you can look at

> that

> > as

> > > a

> > > > need

> > > > > for more intervention, ala the medical model, or a need to

> move

> > > > further

> > > > > along the Price/Pottenger continuum, and mimic some of the

> > > > traditional

> > > > > groups whose diets were 90-100% raw and thus had many more

> > > bioactive

> > > > > nutrients available in their diet.

> > > > >

> > > > > I fear that the problem with many folk who adopt the NT way

> and

> > > > remain

> > > > > boggled by many problems is that they don't go far enough

in

> > > > pushing the

> > > > > diet to the limit and simply replace rather haphazardly

their

> > > > previous

> > > > > foods. And when they don't find relief they end up falling

> back

> > > on a

> > > > > paradigm which contradicts some of the basic tenants of

> Price's

> > > > work.

> > > > >

> > > > > The raw/cooked combo works for many but not all and the

> > > > > Price/Pottenger/NT continuum certainly has a nearly raw

food

> > > > perspective

> > > > > within it, even if its not evident on this list. That

> > perspective

> > > > works

> > > > > in situations like this and renders obsolete the need for

> toxic

> > > > > supplementation.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > <I don't want to simplify this too much; usually there is a

> > > > > constellation of imbalances which needed to be addressed

> > > > > simultaneously. Food allergies are a big one. Many are

> > allergic

> > > > to

> > > > > such things as gluten --even pre-soaked, sprouted, etc.--

and

> > > food

> > > > > allergies can aggravate food cravings.>

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes, getting rid of grains in this situation is a must.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > <Chromium and other mineral

> > > > > def. can be big.>

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > The honey solves this problem as do the other raw foods. We

> can

> > > get

> > > > > caught up in a whole complex of approaches as we find one

> thing

> > > > doesn't

> > > > > work and we move to another. Sometimes though we need to

> trust

> > > what

> > > > got

> > > > > us here in the first place, our commitment to the foods of

> > > tradition

> > > > > provided for in a nourishing way. That may mean taking a

> closer

> > > > look at

> > > > > things that are right under our nose.

> > > > >

> > > > > Lierre, I wish you well as try to find the right path.

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

I must admit that I am now completely confused as to who wrote what

and as I said earlier I don't know that it matters as it's not a

personal thing. However thank you for your attempts to help me keep

it straight who said what. :-))))

You are correct, In addition to the generational passing of

deficiencies (nutritionally) I do take issue with items from Marie's

post also.

THanks again,

I'll try and keep whos who straight next time.

DMM

> > > > > I find this post very interesting and would like to

> understand

> > > more

> > > > > of what you mean by the fact that most folks aren't pushing

> > this

> > > > diet

> > > > > to the limit to get results. Can you get more specific?

Of

> > give

> > > > > some examples?

> > > > >

> > > > > As NT is set up as a cookbook, I can see how people would

> just

> > > pick

> > > > > and choose certain recipes and still eat the way they used

> to.

> > I

> > > > > didn't realize the importance of certain aspects of this

diet

> > > until

> > > > I

> > > > > read Weston Price's book and others, like Henry Bieler.

Now,

> I

> > > > pick

> > > > > and choose from the various recipes in NT according to what

I

> > > know

> > > > my

> > > > > body will handle well. But I know I'm not even applying

all

> of

> > > the

> > > > > principles yet. In your opinion and from experience, what

> are

> > > the

> > > > > more important aspects of NT that most of your patients get

> > > results

> > > > > from applying?? Raw foods/meats?

> > > > >

> > > > > Also, what sort of practitioner are you? I'm interested to

> > know

> > > > your

> > > > > background and how you learned to apply NT principles to

> > healing

> > > > and

> > > > > what sort of results you are getting with it....

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks for sharing,

> > > > > Becky

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This is an interesting letter and it may serve to spell

out

> > some

> > > > > > differences between those of us who are within, broadly

> > > speaking,

> > > > > the

> > > > > > Nourishing Traditions family.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > First I would like to point out that I do not believe

there

> > is a

> > > > > > generational passing on of any depletion. You may in fact

> > > inherit

> > > > a

> > > > > > weakness for such, but whether that is manifested as such

> > > depends

> > > > > on many

> > > > > > factors, the paramount issues being lifestyle and diet.

> This

> > > > > assumption

> > > > > > however causes many health practitioners to look in the

> wrong

> > > > > direction

> > > > > > when faced with patients who have such problems.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Second, having dealt with a number of people facing these

> > > > problems,

> > > > > it is

> > > > > > rare to find someone who has " tried everything " . They

> usually

> > > > have

> > > > > tried

> > > > > > a lot of things within a narrow protocol and oftentimes

> have

> > > > missed

> > > > > some

> > > > > > of the most obvious things, but more on that later.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > <L-Trytophan and 5HTP can be extraordinary support for

the

> > > > intense

> > > > > > cravings you speak of in the afternoon.>

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Man oh man, where does one begin? There is a school of

> > thought

> > > > > within the

> > > > > > broad field of nutrition and diet, that most isolated

> > > supplements

> > > > > in the

> > > > > > long run tend to be toxic for the body, and particularly

> > amino

> > > > acid

> > > > > and

> > > > > > enzyme supplementation are looked at not as support but

> > rather

> > > as

> > > > a

> > > > > > crutch, not coaxing the body to eventually repair the

> damage

> > > > > (however it

> > > > > > got there) but rather causing the body to become

dependent

> on

> > > such

> > > > > > protocol. True they can sometimes bring immediate relief

in

> > the

> > > > > short

> > > > > > term but in the long run do not help the body move

forward.

> I

> > > > could

> > > > > say

> > > > > > so much more about these two in particular but I will

leave

> > > that

> > > > for

> > > > > > another time. Suffice it to say there is a risk present

> here

> > > that

> > > > > is not

> > > > > > at all present with what I suggested in an earlier post.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > <snip> <The calm, serenity and lack of

> > > > > > interest in carbos can be dramatic and immediate for

many,

> > many

> > > > > > people.>

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You have effectively shut down the body's signalling

> > mechanism

> > > for

> > > > > > telling us that something is wrong by feeding it

chemically

> > > > rather

> > > > > than

> > > > > > providing it what it needs in terms of bioactive

nutrients

> > > found

> > > > in

> > > > > food,

> > > > > > not chemical supplementation. As I said in a previous

post,

> > > > > acknowledge

> > > > > > and trust the craving, just make sure it is satisfied in

> the

> > > > proper

> > > > > way.

> > > > > > Eventually both the craving and the underlying problem

> > causing

> > > the

> > > > > > craving will be gone. I know that sounds strange in

todays

> > > world

> > > > > but I

> > > > > > have found it to be true over and over again.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > <snip>

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > <Regarding how long one would stay on these--it really

> > varies.

> > > > You

> > > > > > literally can " restock " your supply of these mood

> > > > > neurotransmitters,

> > > > > > as there are storage sights which get replenished.

> > Eventually--

> > > > > from

> > > > > > 3 months to 1 year--you'll either notice that upon

> forgetting

> > > to

> > > > > take

> > > > > > them that you didn't have a relapse, or you'll start to

> feel

> > > the

> > > > > > effects of too much seratonin, which would be similar to

> some

> > > > > > symptoms of not enough--crabby, short-tempered. They are

> > > > > absolutely

> > > > > > not habit forming, and from everything I have seen,

heard,

> > > > > > experienced, and studied, they are safe.>

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You can accomplish the same results in the same time

frame

> > with

> > > > food

> > > > > > alone. And I am highly suspicious of that last sentence

for

> a

> > > > > number of

> > > > > > reasons, not the least being studies I have read talking

> > about

> > > the

> > > > > > dangers of amino acid supplementation.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > <My feeling is that, yes, in an ideal world, a great diet

a

> > la

> > > NT

> > > > > > would be sufficient to restore any neurotransmitter

> > > deficiency.

> > > > > And

> > > > > > many people do; simply eating more nutrient dense foods,

> > > > especially

> > > > > > fat and protein, eliminates the cravings. But as a

culture

> > so

> > > > many

> > > > > > of us have become so far out of balance with our

> biochemistry

> > > > that

> > > > > > more intervention is needed.>

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Several points.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 1. While eating nutrient dense foods sometimes eliminates

> > > > cravings -

> > > > > her

> > > > > > answer is a very simplistic brush off of a specific

dietary

> > > > > approach. The

> > > > > > point I'm making is to eat a more nutrient dense form of

> the

> > > kind

> > > > > of food

> > > > > > being craved, while making other very radical changes in

> the

> > > diet.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Most of the time we had our patients simply give up

cooked

> > > foods

> > > > > for the

> > > > > > moment, introducing them to grass fed butter, cream, and

> > > cultured

> > > > > milk,

> > > > > > steak tartar, beef carpaccio, raw fish dishes, fermented

> > > veggies

> > > > and

> > > > > > veggie salads, and on occasion a little cooked starch.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If they were craving honey they could eat to their hearts

> > > > content.

> > > > > One

> > > > > > lady had a fetish for ice cream, okay we trusted her

body,

> > and

> > > > > showed her

> > > > > > how to make raw ice cream. She ate a ton it, but a month

> > later

> > > > she

> > > > > had

> > > > > > lost weight and her craving for ice cream. Another

> gentlemen,

> > > > > scared to

> > > > > > death, stopped taking his 5HTP while simultaneously

downing

> > > tons

> > > > of

> > > > > raw

> > > > > > meat with honey. He had absolutely no symptoms and was

> > > ecstatic.

> > > > I

> > > > > did

> > > > > > not try to subdue the craving but rather acknowledged it

> and

> > > let

> > > > it

> > > > > be

> > > > > > the guide as to how best to treat the patient/client.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 2. Yes, many are very out of balance, and you can look at

> > that

> > > as

> > > > a

> > > > > need

> > > > > > for more intervention, ala the medical model, or a need

to

> > move

> > > > > further

> > > > > > along the Price/Pottenger continuum, and mimic some of

the

> > > > > traditional

> > > > > > groups whose diets were 90-100% raw and thus had many

more

> > > > bioactive

> > > > > > nutrients available in their diet.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I fear that the problem with many folk who adopt the NT

way

> > and

> > > > > remain

> > > > > > boggled by many problems is that they don't go far enough

> in

> > > > > pushing the

> > > > > > diet to the limit and simply replace rather haphazardly

> their

> > > > > previous

> > > > > > foods. And when they don't find relief they end up

falling

> > back

> > > > on a

> > > > > > paradigm which contradicts some of the basic tenants of

> > Price's

> > > > > work.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The raw/cooked combo works for many but not all and the

> > > > > > Price/Pottenger/NT continuum certainly has a nearly raw

> food

> > > > > perspective

> > > > > > within it, even if its not evident on this list. That

> > > perspective

> > > > > works

> > > > > > in situations like this and renders obsolete the need for

> > toxic

> > > > > > supplementation.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > <I don't want to simplify this too much; usually there is

a

> > > > > > constellation of imbalances which needed to be addressed

> > > > > > simultaneously. Food allergies are a big one. Many are

> > > allergic

> > > > > to

> > > > > > such things as gluten --even pre-soaked, sprouted, etc.--

> and

> > > > food

> > > > > > allergies can aggravate food cravings.>

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Yes, getting rid of grains in this situation is a must.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > <Chromium and other mineral

> > > > > > def. can be big.>

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The honey solves this problem as do the other raw foods.

We

> > can

> > > > get

> > > > > > caught up in a whole complex of approaches as we find one

> > thing

> > > > > doesn't

> > > > > > work and we move to another. Sometimes though we need to

> > trust

> > > > what

> > > > > got

> > > > > > us here in the first place, our commitment to the foods

of

> > > > tradition

> > > > > > provided for in a nourishing way. That may mean taking a

> > closer

> > > > > look at

> > > > > > things that are right under our nose.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Lierre, I wish you well as try to find the right path.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Lierre,

We could be twins as far as cravings go. My food history is different. Brought

up on local grown, raised or wild food then processed which has only been

problems since. Got my sweet tooth and terrible baby colic from an evaporated

milk/corn syrup formula that was cured with raw milk. There is alcoholism and

diabetes in the family.

Over the last 12 years I have got some relief after linking magnesium

deficiency as part of a sugar binge that led to anxiety, depression and

multiple other symptoms then. Adelle , an earlier in the last century

respected nutritionist in her book  Let's Have Healthy Children says on pg. 92

that soils east of the Mississippi are magnesium deficient due to the

prolonged

use in relationship to the rest of the country of lime and chemical

fertilizers. This use pretty much started in Massachusetts where we both are.

Adelle also attributes magnesium deficiency to the increased need for

tranquilizers in Let's Get Well pg. 319. Between multivitamins,

multiminerals,

and a cup of tea at night with licorice root in it (usually Celestial

Seasonings Tension Tamer) the dips/cravings lessen or stop depending on how

much unprocessed food I eat. Have found recently plant based enzymes like

papaya/bromelian and probiotics in yogurt help. This link gives food sources

<http://www.barttersite.com/foods.htm>http://www.barttersite.com/foods.htm.

You'll notice chocolate and nuts as big magnesium providers. On bad days when

there's only a store I'm driving by available because there's no food with

me I

still will stop and buy one hazelnut truffle. You know the individually

wrapped

balls in lots of flavors. Just the chocolate or other flavors won't let me

stop

at one.

I agree with Dr. Marasco that malabsorption is highly likely along with

hormonal imbalance. I'm leaning to adrenals, thyroid, liver and low

progesterone. Coconut milk (Thai Kitchen pure) for now till I get oil is

helping there on the thyroid (feel warmer) and vitex or chaste tree helps the

progesterone. Anything affecting estrogen makes me worse. Would like to feel

good all the time with just nutritious food like you, Lierre. Don't like

taking

supplements. I know few women around here who haven't had similar and more

than likely related problems. Some of us are more sensitive for sure to whats

missing in our food. What I've said is only a small but important part. My

starting out with stomach problems doesn't help.

Few sideline questions to other discussions this week.

How do I increase the magnesium levels in my garden soil other than with hi

mag

lime or epsom salts?

How is yogurt and cottage cheese made in a dehydrator?

Wanita

[Guest guest]

Also, what sort of practitioner are you? I'm interested to know your

background and how you learned to apply NT principles to healing and

what sort of results you are getting with it....

Thanks for sharing,

Becky

Hi Becky,

I guess I should start by telling you that I have degrees in philosophy

(Ph.D.), medicine (MD) and plan on earning a doctorate in economics as

soon as my family situation will allow. I hesitate to tell you this

because there is a very real sense that none of this background has any

real bearing on what I have developed over the years in terms of healing

diseases and treating patients. But it is important to some folks so

there you have it.

I am clearly a medical heretic and make no bones about it. My hero over

the years has been Dr. Mendel, and if you haven't read his books I

suggest you run, not walk to the store, and buy them.

Nevertheless, educational background notwithstanding, I offer what I have

to say, not on the basis of my credentials, but rather on the basis of

having seen hundreds of people over the years healed by the methods I

employ. Nothing can ever replace practical experience on the front lines

of death and disease. That is why I was so attracted to the work of Dr.

Price, because he went out and found the positive result he was looking

for, and then worked backwards asking why that was so. In other words, we

can learn far more from cultures who are free from disease than we can

from the latest study, soon be replaced by another study, from people who

often have unstated assumptions, which if we don't examine the study in

depth, we often aren't even aware of how it affected the outcome. This is

the place that most lay folk find themselves and also why I don't think

we have gone far enough in applying Price's work and how it can reverse

most disease.

So Becky I essentially spent fifteen years as a medical herbalist. I

worked with people who were sick with or dying of so called incurable

diseases. That was the bulk of my practice and frankly that is all I ever

really wanted. I wanted to demonstrate that natural healing could cure

anything, that toxic intervention (whether by a MD, DC, ND or whomever)

was rarely necessary, and that most alternative healing in this country

was filled with people who simply were not willing to push the envelope

far enough because of wanting respectability or fearing (rightly so) the

AMA and the FDA.

I also wanted to demonstrate that food - not drugs, not vitamins, not

supplements, not extracts - what have you, was the foundation of health

and healing. And that food, properly utilized along with some other non

toxic protocols, could reverse the disease process once it was started,

no matter how far along. This was THE principle that was the legacy to me

from Weston Price. I believed and amply demonstrated that this was a more

effective (and radical) application of his work. Many folks gave lip

service to that principle but I put it into practice.

This approach left me with few friends in the medical profession (for

obvious reasons), and few friends among the alternative practitioners,

because I believed wholeheartedly that animal foods (thanks to Price)

were necessary for many cures and surely for long term health. Most of my

cohorts, such as they were, were vegan in their approach, or simply

didn't believe food and herbs could accomplish such miracles and didn't

want to rock the boat with the FDA. It wasn't always that way in this

country but it sure is now.

What made it even worse (in my fellow practitioners eyes) was that I used

RAW animal foods to effect cures and often ONLY raw animal foods. Now

this was definitely within the parameters of Price's observations but it

often seems to go largely unnoticed. People thought I was off my rocker

but when I asked them what they would do if someone showed up at their

doorstep wanting help because a doctor had just told them they had less

than six months to live, they didn't have much of an answer. When I asked

them what they would do if someone's T cell count was nearly nonexistent

and by all rights they should be dead, they didn't have an answer. When I

asked what they would do with someone who had pancreatic cancer, or with

a little child with a brain tumor, or with someone whose cravings would

send them into a carbohydrate laden feeding frenzy every day, they didn't

have an answer, or the answer betrayed everything they claimed to believe

in.

The results? Cures were effected with aids, cancer, diabetes, strokes,

heart disease, paralysis, and yes even so called serotonin deficiencies

and many other problems. The success rate was phenomenal. These were real

live people getting well, not walking research abstractions. I always

sent them back to their Doctor to verify what had occurred. Occasionally

a Doctor would just be happy to see that their former patient was well.

But more often than not the Doc's were extremely unbelieving as to the

nature of the cure and would simply dismiss it as an oddity AT BEST. What

did I get? Hounded, spit on and ostracized the more success I had. I was

forced to make house calls only to keep from getting shut down. I went

back and got my MD after I had already started on this path figuring it

would ease some of the pressure. How naive I was.

In the mid 1990's a very well known medical herbalist who espoused the

same principles I did (except for the fact he was a vegan) got shut down

by the FDA. The only reason I knew of him was because I kept running into

people who had beat incurable diseases with his help. Before that I

thought he was just a legend. Seriously, the idea that there was a modern

day Max Gerson floating around with the implacable belief in a dietary

and herbal regimen to cure disease (outside of myself ) sounded too good

to be true. Not to mention that Dr. Gerson's approach seems to be less of

a success in these days of chemotherapy and radiation. I had been

disappointed too many times before.

But he clearly had the track record to prove it. And having read his

material I was thoroughly impressed, even though he did not use animal

products. Interesting enough, many of his patients did not follow his

advice after they got well (good for them). In fact when people would ask

me about him my standard response was " listen to him while you are sick,

but pay attention to his mentors after you are well " Nearly all of them

(his mentors) were not vegan. But with his demise (figuratively) I knew

then it was time for me to call it a day. The laws in this country are

not geared to allow the AMA any real competition. Pro-choice is a concept

that is readily recognized in the area of so called reproductive rights

but not in the area of medicine.

At any rate, I apologize for this long post, but at least you now know a

little of my background. I will answer your other questions in a later

post. Thanks.

[Guest guest]

<<Few sideline questions to other discussions this week.

>How do I increase the magnesium levels in my garden soil other than with hi

>mag

>lime or epsom salts?

>How is yogurt and cottage cheese made in a dehydrator?>>

I am not sure about the magnesium but I just made cheese and yogurt in the

dehydrator. All the talk of yogurt made me want to try some. I cheated and

bought a yogurt starter at the store for my first batch but today we made a

batch of yogurt and didn't do anything other than mix some already made

yogurt into raw goats milk straight from the fridge(no heating at all) and

then stuck in the dehydrator at 95 degrees. It turned out great. I bought

some rennet and made some cheese yesterday also. I followed the directions

for cottage cheese and it did nothing after 12 hours so I just added a few

more drops of rennet and forgot about it till later yesterday when my

husband told me the " cheese " was doing something. I had a big bowl of whey

and one giant " curd " . I blended it with some salmon for salmon cream cheese.

I am not sure what your question is about using the dehydrator. I decided to

use mine because I have no way to set the oven at anything less than 175

degrees. So I just used the dehydrator for the constant warm temp. Either a

yogurt or cheese recipe I was looking at mentioned just having a constant

room temp of 72 degrees. I can't imagine that. I keep our house at 61.

Marcella

>

>Wanita

>

>

>

>

>

_________________________________________________________________

MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:

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[Guest guest]

> Adelle , an earlier in the last century respected

> nutritionist in her book Let's Have Healthy Children

> says on pg. 92 that soils east of the Mississippi are

> magnesium deficient due to the prolonged use in relationship

> to the rest of the country of lime and chemical fertilizers.

> How do I increase the magnesium levels in my garden

> soil other than with hi mag lime or epsom salts?

Hi Wanita:

With respect for Adelle , I suspect she didn't know very much

about soil fertility. If her statement is your only basis for wanting

to add magnesium to your soil, I suggest that would be a bad idea

without looking at the total soil picture, at least as far as cations

are concerned (cations are just positive ions, the major ones in the

soil are calcium, magnesium, potassium and hydrogen). A simple soil

test should tell you the base saturation percentages of the major

cations.

One major problem with trying to balance available minerals in the

soil is that various minerals are antagonistic to other minerals. So

if you add too much of one which was too low, it may make another

mineral which was in proper supply behave as if there is a shortage.

Magnesium, like any cation you would add to your soil is always in a

compound form. In high mag lime it is in its carbonate form and in

epsom salts it is in its sulphate form. You would probably want to

know the ph and whether sulphur was deficient too before deciding

whether to add either to the soil to address a magnesium deficiency.

Sometimes just adding calcium to soil allows plants to pick pick up

more of other minerals like magnesium.

Chi

[Guest guest]

On Sun, 17 Feb 2002 15:15:37 -0000 " drmichaelmarasco "

<mmarasco@...> writes:

Him: First I would like to point out that I do not believe there is a

> generational passing on of any depletion.

I am apologizing for doing this in advance however I feel this is

important enough to the people on this forum that this perspective be

addressed. This first statement from Chris' friend sets the stage

for the rest of the post and also sets the stage for the innaccuracy

of her position.

Me: Mr. Marasco,

There is no need to apologize since this is a public forum and if someone

is worried about being taken to task for their ideas then there are

probably more productive ways to spend their time. The very first class I

ever took on philosophy was begun with a warning from our instructor that

if you can't stand the thought of your ideas being thoroughly scrutinized

in public, then philosophy is not the discipline for you. A more popular

way of saying it is " if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. "

Or as we used to say in forensics, " no quarter asked for, and no quarter

given. " So I will not apologize in advance as I meander through your

post.

I'll start by saying I am not Chris' friend and had to go back to the

post to find out who exactly was Chris. I'll ignore this as just a casual

mistake.

Second what I said about genetic generational weaknesses in no way sets

the stage for the rest of the post. What I said stands on its own whether

I am correct or incorrect about generational weaknesses. And if I grant

you the point, which I don't, it would only strengthen what I said since

there are a number of people who have had these exact problems who are

walking around cured today by applying the protocol I suggested in the

earlier post. So while you might try to infer that my advice is logically

dependent on this " assumption " , I tell you my advice works irrespective

of that assumption. What I said does not depend on an exact application

of what it means to have the sins of the fathers passed down to their

descendents and their progeny, nutritionally speaking.

Him: Firstly whether on believes a depletion is passed

on or not is not relevant, much like whether we believe in the tooth

fairy or not is irrelevant. I recommend for everyone to read the

book schrodingers cats if you cant find it email me and I'll give you

a number to call to get it. Most of you are familiar with this

already probably. If you like kitties, as my wife does I'm sorry but

it's still the best book on this topic. Schrodinger clearly without

and doubt irrefutably showed that if you deplete the diets of one

generation of cats you without question would damage the next

generation and their capacity to assimilate nutrients which obviously

results in depletion and malnutrition. He also showed it only took 3

successive generations of this depletion to cause the cats to be

completely sterile. The notion of not believing that depletion is

inherited could not me more innacurate.

Me: I think, Mr. Marasco, that you are actually referring to Dr. Francis

Pottenger, author of Pottenger's Cats. While this is not the casual

mistake of mistaking me for a friend of and attributing one man's

work to someone else is rather slipshod to say the least, I will ignore

this too as result of your zeal to deal with the " importance " of this

post.

I like Dr. Pottenger's work and have read it on a number of occasions. I

agree with the overall idea that raw foods are superior to cooked foods

but I am uncomfortable with some of the steps of his study. I think his

work, while very important, is far more open to criticism than Dr. Price.

So while you may think it is definitive and irrefutable I'm not prepared

to walk the last mile with Dr. Pottenger. Don't get me wrong, I do not

question the efficacy of raw foods vs. cooked foods in cats or humans. In

fact I dare say I have a much greater commitment to that than anyone who

has posted on this list. God forbid! It is the basis of my whole approach

in dealing with these particular kinds of problems. I'm just don't think

Dr. Pottenger is the one to lead me to the promise land in defending it.

In other words, there is good and bad in his work from a methodological

point of view, but that is a topic for another time.

It is however important to remember we are not cats, and more

specifically, in my clinical experience, the inherited generational

depletion you speak of only manifested itself when refined and/or mostly

cooked foods (whether healthy or not) made up the diet. The diminished

capacity to assimilate nutrients was a genetic weakness, not a fait

compleat. I had a number of folks who just couldn't get clear using a NT

way that involved a raw/cooked combo of foods. When giving these folks

say, oodles of truly unheated honey in the context of an all raw diet, it

would correct such a weakness and any depletion associated with it.

Now that may sound simplistic to you, but I would put my clinical

experience against yours any day of the week in dealing with this and

many other problems. In fact, I found this gently corrected a whole host

of mineral and enzyme related problems, albeit slowly. It also corrected

a whole host of digestive problems. And, it worked in helping to correct

diabetes as well.

One reason why is that " raw food maintains its hydrophilic properties (in

other words you don't need gelatin broths when eating all raw), which

promoted greater penetration of gastric and pancreatic

juices. This obviously leads to better digestion and less undigested

proteins that might cause problems (allergic reactions) and subsequently

result in the thinning of the intestinal mucosa, allowing such proteins

(not broken down to constituent amino acids) to pass into the

bloodstream, where more immune reactions are set off and amino acids thus

cannot be utilized. " (I took this nearly verbatim from another post of

which I lost the authors name so these are not my words).

At any rate, I don't care whether one buys me or Pottenger on the issue

of generational depletion. Whether I was correcting an inherited

deficiency or forestalling and removing a genetic weakness matters not

one whit to me. What did matter was that my patients got well, and did so

with the power of food and herbs, not with misguided medical

intervention.

Him: Now with that said I am somewhat familiar with Dr. Ross' work

and as a medical intervetion have no problem with it what so ever.

However to portray supplementing high concentrations of synthetic

amino acids for someone is no light matter and is not healthful.

Me: You will have to help me as this sounds rather contradictory.

Besides, unless I misread your original post you took great pains to

point out your problems with this whole approach.

Him: Just like taking a heart drug is not healthful for the patient ever,

however it may be necessary in the short term to save their life.

Me: With all due respect, this is your opinion and you are certainly

entitled to it, but I have had patients who literally had heart attacks

(and strokes) in front of me who were able to be revived and spared any

damage without using any extremely unhealthy heart drugs. Now if this is

your training, worldview, paradigm, more power to you, but its not the

only way, and it is, IMHO, not even the best way.

Him: So

yes for those who ACTUALLY have tried everything and who are very

dysfunctional and can't get the help in a non invasive way this

synthetic amino acid approach (which in principle is no different

than a drug) is absolutely wonderful.

Me: But you see this the very point in dispute and simply begs the

question. Your a priori commitment to the idea that raw foods cannot

possibly get you here is clouding your vision. Have you clinically tried

EVERY non invasive way? Do you even know what they all are? I tell you I

did not have a case that could NOT be corrected by diet and certain other

routines.

Him: However besides the extremely

important fact the very theories used in brain chemistry function by

Dr. Ross are strongly questioned by many very progressive peers in

her field, it should not be thought of as something to do lightly.

My point here I suppose is to address that most of all. If you can't

get the benefits of your naturally occuring amino acids in your foods

as many many many people can't,

Me: That depends on the foods and how they are administered. I won't

grant you your assumption, just as you were not willing to grant me my

assumption earlier. The problem is that your approach condemns people to

a path of synthetic medical intervention they do not have to take.

Him: and you need to use high

concentrations of synthetically manufactured amino acid (drugs) then

something is without question wrong with your capacity for

assimilation and breakdown of these important nutrients.

Me: Of course it is, but in your world these extreme cases can only be

corrected by drugs. And thats too bad.

Him: It is short

sighted and irresponsible to consider any other possibility until

that is assesed and corrected if need be.

Me: The gospel according to Mr. Marasco? Funny I would be willing to say

the same about your approach.

<snip>

Him: I really don't like taking other posts to task however with the

casualness of this particular post I felt it important to clarify

some of these points.

Me: Well I spoke to casualness in an earlier part of this post. But feel

free to take me to task anytime you like. After all these are forums for

discussion.

Take care

[Guest guest]

By the way, it should say Mendellsohn, not Mendel.

---

Also, what sort of practitioner are you? I'm interested to know your

background and how you learned to apply NT principles to healing and

what sort of results you are getting with it....

Thanks for sharing,

Becky

Hi Becky,

I guess I should start by telling you that I have degrees in philosophy

(Ph.D.), medicine (MD) and plan on earning a doctorate in economics as

soon as my family situation will allow. I hesitate to tell you this

because there is a very real sense that none of this background has any

real bearing on what I have developed over the years in terms of healing

diseases and treating patients. But it is important to some folks so

there you have it.

I am clearly a medical heretic and make no bones about it. My hero over

the years has been Dr. Mendel, and if you haven't read his books I

suggest you run, not walk to the store, and buy them.

[Guest guest]

To Bianca3 and Marasco,

I've been enjoying your conversation here, and have a few peripheral questions.

First, the raw foods issue. Having had some study inTraditional Chinese

Medicine, my understanding is that the consideration of the energetics of foods

take precedence over the chemical composition, and the individual subtle energy

requirements would determine whether raw foods (yin/cooling) would be more

appropriate for a certain condition than cooked foods (yang/warming).

Most of us with a less-than-optimal nutritional history would be termed

" deficient " in TCM, and would require more warming, building foods as opposed to

cooling/detoxifying. This is of course an oversimplification, but the point

being that most people with chronic problems are in " deficiency " rather than

" excess " , and these are treated very differently with foods and herbs, according

also to many other differential diagnostic criteria. This paradigm also is

somewhat parallel to Ayurvedic medicine and other traditional healing systems

that are fundamentally vitalistic in approach.

So this is where these vitalistic approaches seem to contradict the wisdom of

eating raw foods, at least for those who are constitutionally cold/deficient and

need the warming properties of cooked foods.

Cousens who is a proponent of raw, " living " foods and also of Ayurvedic

medicine, seeks a compromise by using warming herbs to warm up the raw foods, or

slightly heating them, and other preparation methods to change their energetic

quality to meet the needs of a cold/deficient person without compromising the

integrity of the raw food.

For me personally, those methods have not been enough, and my cold/deficient

constitution seems to require much more warmth and building both of yin and

yang. Raw foods for the most part are just too difficult for me to digest in any

form, except for certain foods like avocado which are less fibrous. In TCM

terms, the fiber has a cooling energy, and cools down the digestive fire,

weakening it in someone whose digestive fire is already low. For someone whose

digestion is robust, that effect is well tolerated.

So my first question is, how do you reconcile the superiority of raw food over

cooked, with the wisdom of the traditional healing systems? TCM was developed

for a constitutionally cold population which in many respects is much like ours.

Although, other healing systems like Nature Cure were developed on robust

peasant populations whose vital force was strong enough to respond to very

simple interventions like a few sessions of hydrotherapy. Now with all the

stress, allopathic drugging, and environmental pollution weakening our vital

force, our constituions are energetically different from theirs, so we can't

apply the methods of these traditions to modern populations by rote.

Getting back to raw foods.. how would you work with raw foods with someone whose

digestion isn't strong enough yet to handle them? I've used fermented vegetables

but even so, the fiber is still not broken down enough for me to digest it,

although I use the juice and try to get enzymes any which way I can.

I also know many people with inflammatory bowel problems (mine is much less

severe) who have made remarkable recoveries with very radical diets but still

can't tolerate raw foods.

Would appreciate your thoughts on this.

[Guest guest]

I used the book and took a great number of supplements for many weeks. I

found the amino acids particularly to be very helpful. I have tapered off a

number of the supplements, but continue to take GABA and DLPA for their

relaxing and emotion-stablizing effects, respectively.

Jill Nienhiser

-----Original Message-----

From: L [mailto:lierrekeith@...]

Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 7:32 AM

Subject: amino acids?

I am reading a book that was recommended on the WAP

website--The Diet Cure by Ross. The idea is that

taking amino acids can cure various imbalances created

by the wrong diet, like the low-fat/high-carb thing.

Some of the descriptions of people's symptoms and

cravings fit me to a T. So I'm curious about trying

this. Have any of you done it?

Lierre

[Guest guest]

you pose a great question. And admittedly I am definetly not

an expert in TCM (traditional chinese medicine) I have a rudimentary

grasp on it as I have a number of close friends/colleagues who would

be considered masters in this field. Firstly is I conveniently use

the fundamental premise of TCM which is balance. I find that the

extremes are where most folks especially americans and finding some

balance is usually where the real solutions are. As you know there

are so many divergent views in the world of diet and nutrition and

the reason being is that these views were usually inspired by

circumstance. Geography, famine, disease, etc... so obviously they

would necessitate differing views. I really don't find ALL raw or

ALL cooked to be a functional way for humans to eat. If we even just

use WAP as the example he found lots of divergence amongst these

groups and this alone should show that the extremes are just that

extremes. There should be a substantial amount of raw food in the

daily diet, as too there should also be cooked food. I really don't

see it as an either or question. As far as your concerns regarding

eating any raw foods, this is not uncommon especially in severe

situations and the real answer is that there is something wrong with

the the digestor (the person) not the digestee (the raw food). So to

say that raw food may not be good for someone because they don't

tolerate it well, in my experience is putting the cart before the

horse. The faulty function here is not in the raw food it is in the

person not enveloping that food properly. This could mean anything

from something as simple as not chewing enough all the way to that

digestive system needs some serious support. The fiberousness of a

raw food should be a non issue. If you have someone who is having

this kind of difficulty they need to chew that raw food until they

are drinking it when they swallow and over time they will tolerate

the raw food with a little less effort but until that time they need

to chew until they have ground their teeth to knubs. Secondly if the

gut is sufficiently acidic this again should be a non issue,

essentially (excuse my exaggeration) with a sufficiently acidic gut

one should be able to swallow a car part without any problem at all.

So this is another place to look. However on the other side of the

coin as far as the energy imparted from applying fire to your food,

the alchemy is essential. That does not mean scortch the food it

just means bringing fire to the food most definetly makes a huge

difference. In reference to this topic, Bianca is primarily speaking

of people who are practically on their death beds and that is a

pretty extreme place to be. They really don't have the luxury of

debating as to whether they " tolerate " something well or not. They

have the edict of " live or die " . These situations can require an

extreme response. However my experience says if you show me someone

on an all raw eating regimen, give them my card because they will be

needing some help in a few months or years. An addendum to that is

this also becomes a climate issue. Try living in Alberta or

Wisconsin or Montana year after year in winter after winter on raw

fruits and vegetables. I bet you can't. So also as the TCM would

take into account the climate also plays a role. Obviously because

it requires different demands.

I hope this is of some help. If you need more let me know.

Sincerely,

Dr. Marasco,BS,DC

Cincinnati, Oh

> To Bianca3 and Marasco,

>

> I've been enjoying your conversation here, and have a few

peripheral questions.

>

> First, the raw foods issue. Having had some study inTraditional

Chinese Medicine, my understanding is that the consideration of the

energetics of foods take precedence over the chemical composition,

and the individual subtle energy requirements would determine whether

raw foods (yin/cooling) would be more appropriate for a certain

condition than cooked foods (yang/warming).

>

> Most of us with a less-than-optimal nutritional history would be

termed " deficient " in TCM, and would require more warming, building

foods as opposed to cooling/detoxifying. This is of course an

oversimplification, but the point being that most people with chronic

problems are in " deficiency " rather than " excess " , and these are

treated very differently with foods and herbs, according also to many

other differential diagnostic criteria. This paradigm also is

somewhat parallel to Ayurvedic medicine and other traditional healing

systems that are fundamentally vitalistic in approach.

>

> So this is where these vitalistic approaches seem to contradict the

wisdom of eating raw foods, at least for those who are

constitutionally cold/deficient and need the warming properties of

cooked foods.

>

> Cousens who is a proponent of raw, " living " foods and also

of Ayurvedic medicine, seeks a compromise by using warming herbs to

warm up the raw foods, or slightly heating them, and other

preparation methods to change their energetic quality to meet the

needs of a cold/deficient person without compromising the integrity

of the raw food.

>

> For me personally, those methods have not been enough, and my

cold/deficient constitution seems to require much more warmth and

building both of yin and yang. Raw foods for the most part are just

too difficult for me to digest in any form, except for certain foods

like avocado which are less fibrous. In TCM terms, the fiber has a

cooling energy, and cools down the digestive fire, weakening it in

someone whose digestive fire is already low. For someone whose

digestion is robust, that effect is well tolerated.

>

> So my first question is, how do you reconcile the superiority of

raw food over cooked, with the wisdom of the traditional healing

systems? TCM was developed for a constitutionally cold population

which in many respects is much like ours. Although, other healing

systems like Nature Cure were developed on robust peasant populations

whose vital force was strong enough to respond to very simple

interventions like a few sessions of hydrotherapy. Now with all the

stress, allopathic drugging, and environmental pollution weakening

our vital force, our constituions are energetically different from

theirs, so we can't apply the methods of these traditions to modern

populations by rote.

>

> Getting back to raw foods.. how would you work with raw foods with

someone whose digestion isn't strong enough yet to handle them? I've

used fermented vegetables but even so, the fiber is still not broken

down enough for me to digest it, although I use the juice and try to

get enzymes any which way I can.

>

> I also know many people with inflammatory bowel problems (mine is

much less severe) who have made remarkable recoveries with very

radical diets but still can't tolerate raw foods.

>

> Would appreciate your thoughts on this.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

Great comments, thanks.

>> Firstly is I conveniently use

the fundamental premise of TCM which is balance. I find that the

extremes are where most folks especially americans and finding some

balance is usually where the real solutions are. <<

Yes; this is where the various healing systems seem to converge.

>> As you know there

are so many divergent views in the world of diet and nutrition and

the reason being is that these views were usually inspired by

circumstance. Geography, famine, disease, etc... so obviously they

would necessitate differing views. <<

Yes; the various systems were developed for specific populations. This is why

TCM is so good at tonic therapy, because the climate was cold and food shortages

were common, so the same kind of cold/deficient conditions were seen then as we

have now in many instances of chronic illness. By contrast, some of the European

healing traditions were seeing people with more excess constitutions who tended

to get more " heat " symptoms like acute fevers, and they could take a single

cooling herb like goldenseal, take juices or fast (also a cooling therapy) and

get better quickly. Now with our complex chronic illnesses we can take the

wisdom of those traditions but we have to know how to use it in a new context

and make important distinctions.

>>So to say that raw food may not be good for someone because they don't

tolerate it well, in my experience is putting the cart before the

horse. The faulty function here is not in the raw food it is in the

person not enveloping that food properly.<<

Yes, I fully agree! But I think that at the same time, someone in that condition

can't just plunge into an ideal diet, no matter how well chewed, but has to

start from where they are. I know people who can barely tolerate cooked veggies

let alone raw ones. Maybe introducing small amounts of active enzymes, like

sauerkraut juice, is the way to go in that case.

>>The fiberousness of a raw food should be a non issue. <<

For people with inflamed intestines, it can be way too irritating even in small

amounts. I think this has to be approached from a different angle for them (and

for me to a certain extent).

>>Secondly if the gut is sufficiently acidic this again should be a non issue,

essentially (excuse my exaggeration) with a sufficiently acidic gut

one should be able to swallow a car part without any problem at all.

So this is another place to look. <<

Good point, and years of eating a high starch diet has compromised my gastric

acidity, and I'm sure that's very common.

>>However on the other side of the

coin as far as the energy imparted from applying fire to your food,

the alchemy is essential. That does not mean scortch the food it

just means bringing fire to the food most definetly makes a huge

difference. <<

Yes, this has a profound energetic implication in TCM.

>> In reference to this topic, Bianca is primarily speaking

of people who are practically on their death beds and that is a

pretty extreme place to be. They really don't have the luxury of

debating as to whether they " tolerate " something well or not. <<

Okay, that helps me sort things out here. Yet I'm wondering if the foods that

are not tolerated are also the foods that may not be energetically indicated. My

herbalism teacher Tierra says that rather than think in terms of side

effects, either a food or herb is indicated for the person or it isn't. I'm no

expert in TCM either, but my understanding is that cancer is an excess condition

that needs eliminative therapy (forgive the oversimplification again), while

someone equally as ill but with a deficiency condition would be made worse by

that kind of eliminative treatment. So even in an extreme situation, the

treatment would need to be indicated energetically, even if it was a little

rough on the person. That's different from taking remedies (foods or herbs) that

are rough on you because they're not suited to your condition or constitution.

So the question is what is the individual's differential diagnosis and what is

needed to bring about balance in each particular situation.

>> An addendum to that is

this also becomes a climate issue. Try living in Alberta or

Wisconsin or Montana year after year in winter after winter on raw

fruits and vegetables. I bet you can't. So also as the TCM would

take into account the climate also plays a role. Obviously because

it requires different demands.<<

Absolutely. I think it's interesting that Tibetan Buddhists are known for eating

meat, while many Buddhists in southeast area can adopt a more vegetarian diet,

vegetarian diet being very cooling and unbalanced, but in the tropics it can be

done more easily than most of us could.

Best,