Re: Re: mixing oils cod v. flax

[Guest guest]

I am a little concernced about the following statement:

" If you're taking cod liver oil, you can ditch the flax oil. " -- see

message below.

I think we should be careful when making such recommendations, unless one

knows the exact composition of the cod liver oil in question. Relying only

on cod liver oil for Omega 3s (EPA and DHA) might result in consuming too

much vitamin D.

FDA toxicity is 2000 IU daily. From K. Sullivan's article on the WAP site -

she suggests testing the blood if one is supplementing with more than 1000

IU daily.

Assume a 2000cal diet, of that 40% is consumed as fat,

2% of the total fat should come from Omega 3s = 1778mg.

Or, assume a 2500cal diet, of that 40% is consumed as fat,

2% of the total fat should come from Omega 3s = 2222mg.

1 Teaspoon of Carlson's Cod Liver Oil (Regular Formula in the bottle)

provides:

A 5000 IU

D 500 IU

O3s 1050mg

Taking 1.5 to 2 teaspoons to get 1575mg or 2100mg O3s would not be a

concern.

However, the Cod Liver Oil that I take (in gelcap form) daily dose provides:

A 5000 IU

D 500 IU

O3s 500mg

Taking 3 daily doses to get 1500mg O3s would not be a concern.

Taking 4 or 4.5 daily doses to get 2000mg or 2250mg O3s would result in

2000IU or 2250IU vitamin D daily, a possible concern.

Please correct me if I am wrong on this or am missing something. I know the

question about getting Omega 3s from Cod Liver Oil v. Flax Oil came-up

previously.

Additionally, I think we should be careful when considering conversion

rates since it is known that people whose ancestory is associated with a

diet heavy on sea foods do not make the conversion well. I doubt

researchers controlled for this variable. Additionally, the conversion is

reduced under poor dietary conditions - again, something which I am guessing

was not controlled for in the studies.

Deanna

----- Original Message -----

From: " justinbond " <justin_bond@...>

< >

Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 9:39 AM

Subject: Re: mixing oils

If you're taking cod liver oil, you can ditch the flax oil. There's

no reason to take two omega-3 supplements, particularly considering

how poor the conversion rate of LNA to EPA/DHA is.

[Guest guest]

>Taking 4 or 4.5 daily doses to get 2000mg or 2250mg O3s would result in

>2000IU or 2250IU vitamin D daily, a possible concern.

My understanding is that if you were taking that much D2 (synthetic D which

probably shouldn't even be called D at all) it would/could be a concern,

but the RDA of real D should probably be more like 4000 IU, based on the

work of Price and others.

-

[Guest guest]

,

In the same article that K. Sullivan recommends testing when taking more

than 1000 IU in supplements - she also states that a Dr. Vieth suggests the

RDA should be 4000 IU. But, it concerned me that she (who has had clinical

experience with D supplementing) suggests testing when using over 1000 IU

with supplements - according to her presentation last year, she only

recommended supplementing with D from Cod Liver Oil.

I sent the post b/c I remember the issue of Cod Liver Oil v. Flaxseed Oil

came up previously - I thought one possible reason for not getting all of

one's daily supply of O-3s from Cod Liver Oil would be the potential for

vitamin overdose. If I attempted this with my Cod Liver Oil, according to

Sullivan, I should be blood testing. However, this might not be the case at

all if the true RDA is 4000 IU.

Deanna

----- Original Message -----

From: " Idol " <Idol@...>

< >

Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 4:11 PM

Subject: Re: Re: mixing oils cod v. flax

>Taking 4 or 4.5 daily doses to get 2000mg or 2250mg O3s would result in

>2000IU or 2250IU vitamin D daily, a possible concern.

My understanding is that if you were taking that much D2 (synthetic D which

probably shouldn't even be called D at all) it would/could be a concern,

but the RDA of real D should probably be more like 4000 IU, based on the

work of Price and others.

-

[Guest guest]

Deanna wrote:

> I sent the post b/c I remember the issue of

> Cod Liver Oil v. Flaxseed Oil came up previously -

> I thought one possible reason for not getting all of

> one's daily supply of O-3s from Cod Liver Oil would

> be the potential for vitamin overdose. If I attempted

> this with my Cod Liver Oil, according to Sullivan, I

> should be blood testing. However, this might not be

> the case at all if the true RDA is 4000 IU.

This reminds me of something I've wondered before. Why doesn't fish body

oil come up in these discussions of Omega 3 supplementation? Is it that

there aren't any really high quality sources? That's hard for me to

imagine, but it could be the case. At any rate, a high quality fish body

oil supplement would seem to dispose with the problems of both flax and cod

liver oil as an omega 3 source. It's already in the form of EPA and DHA and

it's not a concentrated source of A or D. I have heard mention that some

fish body oils may contain some of both A and D, but since neither is ever

listed on the information labels, it must be very small amounts.

On another note, do we know that the precursor form of Omega 3 provided by

flax oil isn't useful in it's own right? I know the conversion to EPA and

DHA is poor, and they may be the most critical forms of omega 3 for human

health. I wonder, though, if there is a human biological need for (or at

least a benefit from) Alpha-linoleic-acid or perhaps other less commonly

discussed omega 3 forms. Are there perhaps prostaglandins that are readily

formed from the Alpha-linoleic form that aren't readily made directly from

EPA and/or DHA (perhaps requiring a reverse conversion to the Alpha-linoleic

form)?

If anyone knows the definitive answer to either of these, I'd be very

interested...

Thanks,

Minneapolis

[Guest guest]

-

>Even if there is an

>optimal dosage higher than 1.25g of EPA + DHA, butter, lard, meat and

>milk will provide additional omega-3's.

Seems to me the limiting factor in cod liver oil consumption is more likely

to be the n3 content -- we need enough, but not too much -- rather than the

vitamin content.

Either way, I'm highly skeptical of the usefulness of flax oil. As you

say, the conversion rate is awful, so we're left with a lot of

seemingly-useless oil floating through our systems.

-

[Guest guest]

wrote:

" On another note, do we know that the precursor form of Omega 3 provided by

flax oil isn't useful in it's own right? "

My thoughts exactly. I have printed out Enig's article from the WAP

site " Tripping lightly down the prostaglandin pathway " in an attempt to

answer this question myself.

Additionally, I have seen references that indicate that as long as one

consumes enough Omega 3 (I think it was 2000mg) the issue was not so much

the amount, but the important issue became the ratio of O3 to O6. - Again,

leading me to agree with your hypothesis.

From my personal experience of taking Evening Primrose Oil and Flaxseed Oil

(for 9 months before starting Cod) - the Flax is clearly doing something for

me - that is, eliminating my chicken skin (aka: eczema). Without Flax, it

comes back - this happened on each of the 3 occasions that I ran out of it.

As you, I have also wondered about the fish oils. I have heard similar

stories - good sources are difficult to find.

Deanna

----- Original Message -----

From: " Kroyer " <skroyer@...>

< >

Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 5:37 PM

Subject: RE: Re: mixing oils cod v. flax

Deanna wrote:

> I sent the post b/c I remember the issue of

> Cod Liver Oil v. Flaxseed Oil came up previously -

> I thought one possible reason for not getting all of

> one's daily supply of O-3s from Cod Liver Oil would

> be the potential for vitamin overdose. If I attempted

> this with my Cod Liver Oil, according to Sullivan, I

> should be blood testing. However, this might not be

> the case at all if the true RDA is 4000 IU.

This reminds me of something I've wondered before. Why doesn't fish body

oil come up in these discussions of Omega 3 supplementation? Is it that

there aren't any really high quality sources? That's hard for me to

imagine, but it could be the case. At any rate, a high quality fish body

oil supplement would seem to dispose with the problems of both flax and cod

liver oil as an omega 3 source. It's already in the form of EPA and DHA and

it's not a concentrated source of A or D. I have heard mention that some

fish body oils may contain some of both A and D, but since neither is ever

listed on the information labels, it must be very small amounts.

On another note, do we know that the precursor form of Omega 3 provided by

flax oil isn't useful in it's own right? I know the conversion to EPA and

DHA is poor, and they may be the most critical forms of omega 3 for human

health. I wonder, though, if there is a human biological need for (or at

least a benefit from) Alpha-linoleic-acid or perhaps other less commonly

discussed omega 3 forms. Are there perhaps prostaglandins that are readily

formed from the Alpha-linoleic form that aren't readily made directly from

EPA and/or DHA (perhaps requiring a reverse conversion to the Alpha-linoleic

form)?

If anyone knows the definitive answer to either of these, I'd be very

interested...

Thanks,

Minneapolis

[Guest guest]

" Only the elongated omega-3s (EPA, DPA

and DHA)and omega-6s (GLA and AA) can be formed in the

body and that makes them either non-essential or conditionally essential,

but

they do not have the same level of " essentiality " as their precursors LA and

LNA

(both of which have some additional functions separate from their roles as

specific precursors to GLA, AA, EPA, DPA, and DHA). "

Thank you very much for posting this - it answers my questions too!

----- Original Message -----

From: " sraosha87 " <sraosha@...>

< >

Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 12:20 AM

Subject: Re: mixing oils cod v. flax

> On another note, do we know that the precursor form of Omega 3

provided by

> flax oil isn't useful in it's own right? I know the conversion to

EPA and

> DHA is poor, and they may be the most critical forms of omega 3 for

human

> health. I wonder, though, if there is a human biological need for

(or at

> least a benefit from) Alpha-linoleic-acid or perhaps other less

commonly

> discussed omega 3 forms. Are there perhaps prostaglandins that are

readily

> formed from the Alpha-linoleic form that aren't readily made

directly from

> EPA and/or DHA (perhaps requiring a reverse conversion to the

Alpha-linoleic

> form)?

>From post #3846 on coconut-info group, by Enig, PhD.:

--snip--

Regarding the essential fatty acids (often referred to as EFAs): (i)

The first

of the omega-3 fatty acids is called alpha-linolenic

acid (LNA) and it is

essential because it can only be obtained from the

diet. It cannot be made in

any animal body. (ii) The first of the omega-6 fatty

acids is called linoleic

acid (LA) and it is essential because it can only be

obtained from the diet. It

too cannot be made in any animal body. Only the

elongated omega-3s (EPA, DPA

and DHA)and omega-6s (GLA and AA) can be formed in the

body and that makes them

either non-essential or conditionally essential, but

they do not have the same

level of " essentiality " as their precursors LA and LNA

(both of which have some

additional functions separate from their roles as

specific precursors to GLA,

AA, EPA, DPA, and DHA).

--snip--

I am a nutritionist/nutritional biochemist. I have an

MS and a PhD from the

University of land's Graduate Program in

Nutritional Sciences. I did my

graduate degree studies in the Department of Chemistry

and Biochemistry.

I am a researcher with real " bench " experience in food

fats and oils chemistry

and in lipid biochemistry. By bench chemistry and

biochemistry I mean that I

have actually analyzed in many different ways fats and

oils from foods and

lipids from tissues of both animals and humans. In

addition to doing this

extensive bench research in a university setting for

nearly 20 years and

attending technical meetings for nearly 30 years, I

have made sure that I am

well-read in the entire fats, oils and lipids research

area, and in addition to

the pertinent historical information that most people

hear about, many of my

files and papers on fats and oils go back to the early

1930s. Thus I presented

the above information as an expert in lipids and all

aspects of nutrition

connected with lipids.

I wrote the book Know Your Fats because I was quite

concerned about all of the

misinformation concerning the subject of fats, oils,

and lipids that was

showing up in the different literatures; eg, in books,

newsletters, magazines,

newspapers. I wrote the book as a " primer " because I

hoped to give people an

opportunity to see and understand the basics. I

included some small pieces of

technical information but did not expand on many areas

that are best covered in

a text book and that must of necessity be at a

scientific research level. I

also included a certain amount of the politics, but

did not dwell on the whole

issue as that would have required an entire book in

itself. I answered many

questions that had been asked of me over many years.

Enig

[Guest guest]

From: sraosha87 [mailto:sraosha@...]

quoting from post #3846 on coconut-info group, by Enig, PhD.:

> " Regarding the essential fatty acids

....

> they [EPA, DPA, DHA, GLA, AA] do not have the same

> level of " essentiality " as their precursors LA and LNA

> (both of which have some additional functions separate

> from their roles as specific precursors to GLA, AA, EPA,

> DPA, and DHA) " .

Beautiful! I hadn't dared to hope for such a specific and informative

response. Thank you very much!

I think I'll continue to look for opportunities for adding small amounts of

flax to my diet.

[Guest guest]

wrote:

>That is interesting. Now I'd like to know more

>(anything) about these functions, and what foods

>have the precursors besides flax.

,

Most vegetables, nuts and seeds contain some. Walnuts, butternuts, wheat

germ, and purslane are some that I know to be relatively rich sources. Most

very green herbs contain a fair amount proportionately speaking, but since

the total lipids in most of them are so low, they don't really yield a very

concentrated source.

What I'm not sure about is whether all of the vegetable (precursor) form of

omega 3 gets converted in the animal to the longer forms like DHA, or

whether some remains in the shorter precursor form. I'm guessing that

there's at least *some* remaining in the precursor form in marine fats and

grass-fed fats, but I don't know that for sure yet.

[Guest guest]

Anyone care to comment on the broadsides by Ray Peat and Bruce Fife

against supplementing with flax and fish oils?

On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 18:06:14 -0500 Idol <Idol@...>

writes:

-

>Even if there is an

>optimal dosage higher than 1.25g of EPA + DHA, butter, lard, meat and

>milk will provide additional omega-3's.

Seems to me the limiting factor in cod liver oil consumption is more

likely

to be the n3 content -- we need enough, but not too much -- rather than

the

vitamin content.

Either way, I'm highly skeptical of the usefulness of flax oil. As you

say, the conversion rate is awful, so we're left with a lot of

seemingly-useless oil floating through our systems.

-

[Guest guest]

Bianca-

>Anyone care to comment on the broadsides by Ray Peat and Bruce Fife

>against supplementing with flax and fish oils?

I think history's pretty clear that fish is good and helpful, but I stopped

using flax oil a few years ago and I'm not going to start again.

I also read elsewhere that the lignin content of flax and flax oil is

hormonally active like isoflavones.

-

[Guest guest]

,

I don't think either one of these men would disagree on the wholesomeness

of fish. It is the fish and flax oils they have a problem with. I will

post the Ray Peat article tomorrow for perusal.

B

On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 23:13:21 -0500 Idol <Idol@...>

writes:

Bianca-

>Anyone care to comment on the broadsides by Ray Peat and Bruce Fife

>against supplementing with flax and fish oils?

I think history's pretty clear that fish is good and helpful, but I

stopped

using flax oil a few years ago and I'm not going to start again.

I also read elsewhere that the lignin content of flax and flax oil is

hormonally active like isoflavones.

-