Re: speaking of sexual harassment, etc.....

[Guest guest]

Well, let me see, I am autistic. My mother taught me that :

1.) drinking is not a good way to have fun

2.) if you are inebriated, you will not be able to defend

yourself, and people will hurt you

3.) don’t give in to peer pressure; anyone who pressures you

is not your friend

4.) never allow yourself to be alone with anyone who may hurt

you

5.) always have an escape route, be able to get away from any

type of danger

6.) Never touch anyone without their permission first, and if

they touch you without permission, tell them you have the right

not to be touched

7.) If someone insists on touching you without your

permission, beat the hell out of them, unless they are bigger –

then tell your Mom and she will take care of it

I am naive, but that can be overcome by a proper education. I

lack common sense, but that can be overcome by proper education.

Yes, public campaigns can provide proper education, but they will

not overcome the fact that there are bad people in the world who

will hurt you because they can. Sheltering children from the fact

that there are bad people in the world is not giving them a

proper education.

Louis

RE: speaking of sexual harassment,

etc.....

Nanne wrote:

> I despise the stupidity of some women as much as I

>despise instances of real rape. (and I've been raped

>before, so I know from experience of what I speak.)

and Louis responded:

>I agree wholeheartedly. My mother always told me never to get

>myself into a situation I couldn’t get out of, and I never have.

>I even have escape routes in my house.

Odd. To " despise " anyone for lack of common sense,

when " lack of common sense " and " naivete " are two

characteristics of autism.

Not to mention the fact that some peoply may not have

been taught or shown various aspects of the world.

And/or may have had " bad role models " that led them

to think it okay or even important to " be a good sport "

or " don't be a wet blanket " (or simply, " drinking is

the way to have a good time " ), somehow neglecting to

add to the lesson: " Oh, and when you get raped as

a result, it's your own fault. "

I think there should be a lot more social education

(as in the public campaigns against smoking, perhaps)

to get across the point that it is never okay to take

advantage of anyone's naivete or inebriation. No

matter what genders are involved.

Jane

[Guest guest]

>Another gripe is that it assumes all girls/women

>are weak helpless little things and all boys/men are

>evil testosterone raging creatures. This is bullshit

>as women can be sexually predatory creatures also.

>

At last someone that agrees. When the balance of power is greater

whatever sex that may be then there is normally trouble. I worked in

a Female Dominated Office and had to be the but of constant jokes

from the way I typed to how I held a cup. One of the Women even

asked me to prove I was a Man etc. It was not nice. It was not what

other Men would say a big turn on. I felt physically sick every day

going to that office and getting bullied. Once i made an important

phone call and she touched me on the leg and I laughed. I almost got

a Written Warning for that. I did try and tell the Boss about what

was going on. But he sort of looked at me like I was crazy to not

like the attention. He was your typical Bloke. ALways looking out

of his window at the College Girls in SHort Skirts. So he obviously

thought I was getting all the cream. But the receiving end was very

different.

I do not think any of the women really fancied me as such. They were

just breaking the boredom at my Expense. In the end I had to leave

as I could feel anxiety after anxiety attack coming on.

I may of been able to do something about them but my Mother was

suffering with Breast Cancer at the time so that was the furthest

from my mind.

Bottom line is as a Victim of not only Sexual Harassment and Bullying

in the workplace, but sexual abuse by my Adopted Sister and a Social

Worker who was also Female. I myself know what some Women are

capable of. I see abuse as abuse be it a Male or Female Perp.

Steve

My Aspergers Groups

http://www.geocities.com/chemerelite

http://clix.to/chemer

[Guest guest]

Chemer wrote:

> At last someone that agrees. When the balance of power is greater

> whatever sex that may be then there is normally trouble. I worked in

> a Female Dominated Office and had to be the but of constant jokes

> from the way I typed to how I held a cup. One of the Women even

> asked me to prove I was a Man etc. It was not nice. It was not what

> other Men would say a big turn on.

No, that would not be pleasant in any way. That was sexual harassment.

Not " reverse " sexual harassment.

> I felt physically sick every day

> going to that office and getting bullied. Once i made an important

> phone call and she touched me on the leg and I laughed. I almost

> got a Written Warning for that. I did try and tell the Boss about

> what was going on. But he sort of looked at me like I was crazy to

> not like the attention. He was your typical Bloke. ALways looking

> out of his window at the College Girls in SHort Skirts. So he

> obviously thought I was getting all the cream. But the receiving end

> was very different.

There is nothing sexy or appealing about being abused, made fun of, or

being the constant butt of people's jokes. That is a form of bullying--

no doubt at all about that.

> I do not think any of the women really fancied me as such. They were

> just breaking the boredom at my Expense. In the end I had to leave

> as I could feel anxiety after anxiety attack coming on.

>

> I may of been able to do something about them but my Mother was

> suffering with Breast Cancer at the time so that was the furthest

> from my mind.

>

> Bottom line is as a Victim of not only Sexual Harassment and Bullying

> in the workplace, but sexual abuse by my Adopted Sister and a Social

> Worker who was also Female. I myself know what some Women are

> capable of. I see abuse as abuse be it a Male or Female Perp.

Indeed. Abuse is abuse; it does not matter what kind of genitalia the

abuser or the victim may have. It is unfortunate that you had to go

through that.

[Guest guest]

Louis wrote:

>Well, let me see, I am autistic. My mother taught me that :

>1.) drinking is not a good way to have fun

>....

>I am naive, but that can be overcome by a proper education. I

>lack common sense, but that can be overcome by proper education.

And to hell with anyone not lucky enough to have

your mother (or a reasonable facsimile thereof)?

Jane

[Guest guest]

> Louis wrote:

> >Well, let me see, I am autistic. My mother taught me that :

> >1.) drinking is not a good way to have fun

> >I am naive, but that can be overcome by a proper education. I

> >lack common sense, but that can be overcome by proper education.

> And to hell with anyone not lucky enough to have

> your mother (or a reasonable facsimile thereof)?

What confuses me on this whole issue is that people see it as an

either-or thing.

So you've got a situation here in which one person is intoxicated and

another person rapes them while they're intoxicated and unable to get

away. People seem to think that you can either have one of two things

-- calling it rape and therefore encouraging people not to learn their

lesson, or blaming the person who became intoxicated and therefore

encouraging people to learn their lesson.

When I was a kid, I had it drilled into me very specifically that when

you go to certain places, you do *not* wear certain colors, because you

could get beaten up or killed.

However, it was *never* drilled into me that if this happened to you,

then you were somehow at fault for what someone else did to you based on

something as arbitrary as clothing color. It was just emphasized that

this was a way to get into a *really* bad situation you might never get

out of. When things like this *happened* to people, they were reported

as assaults or murders, not as " This idiot deserved it. " And while when

some people were taught about this they were told that *real* gang

members deserved it, I was never taught that and it did not affect me

that way. (Obviously other people may disagree, but that's beside the

point, since the point is that I was able to be educated about this

without making it sound like someone or another deserved the crime.)

Somehow, people were able, with the right education, to stay out of that

situation without blaming the victim when a crime was committed.

What I do *not* understand is why people think that in order to educate

people about avoiding becoming a crime (rape) victim, you have to call

it something other than rape. In fact, calling it rape would seem like

a bigger deterrent than random vague euphemisms used to disguise what

actually happens ( " taking advantage of " and similar things). " Taking

advantage of " someone (i.e. raping them) in that situation is wrong.

Getting into the position of someone in that situation ranges from

ignorant to stupid to bullied-into-it. Surely raping someone is worse

than being stupid or ignorant?

I was sexually assaulted twice by students from school (that horrid

special ed place I've been talking about on AutAdvo). Both instances

happened on the schoolbus. Both times, the only warning I got (if you

can call it that) was the question, " Are you sure you want to sit with

this person? " Then, afterwards, I was told that whatever these people

had done to me was my own fault because I should have somehow intuited

that this question meant, " This person is a repeat sexual offender. "

(Of course, most of the time, they didn't care about that. Given that

one of their students had done similar stuff to me while I was

institutionalized with him and catatonic, and the only thing the

teachers did when they heard about it was *laugh*.)

Because of this experience (and in particular, the responses to it), I

find it easy to believe that someone else who got into a situation

through ignorance could get blamed for something someone else did to

them. (And there are other experiences which are much closer --

although not identical -- to the scenario in question, which I don't

even dare talk about here because someone will likely say I deserved

whatever happened.)

Certainly ignorance should be remedied, and an " If you do this, *you're

probably going to get raped at some point* " warning should be in place,

and stupidity should be counseled against, but simply treating it like

no crime was committed or like it's somehow lesser than " real " rape is

wrong. And the " If they were drunk, they deserved it " *does* encourage

potential rapists, which can't be said for the statement " This is rape

and here's how to avoid it. "

--

" ...by assuming that a worsening of our disability means that our lives

would no longer be worth living, we are undermining the lives of those

who are already more disabled than ourselves. " -

[Guest guest]

> No, that would not be pleasant in any way. That was sexual harassment.

> Not " reverse " sexual harassment.

Agreed as well.

The reverse of sexual harassment is *lack of sexual harassment*. Sexual

harassment is sexual harassment, whether it happens to males, females,

or other people. (And for people who are neither male nor female -- who

get it a *lot* if people find out -- then following that logic it would

have to be " sideways sexual harassment " or something, which doesn't make

any sense whatsoever.) There's no need to tack on a " reverse " to it, as

that makes it sound like " real " sexual harassment only happens to one

sex. (As well as requiring the absurd description I outlined above for

when it's someone who's not male or female.)

--

A revolving concretion of earthy or mineral matter accumulates no

congeries of small, green bryophytic plant.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/12/2003 11:26:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

arivero@... writes:

> >Odd. To " despise " anyone for lack of common sense,

> >when " lack of common sense " and " naivete " are two

> >characteristics of autism.

> >

> >Not to mention the fact that some peoply may not have

> >been taught or shown various aspects of the world.

> >And/or may have had " bad role models " that led them

> >to think it okay or even important to " be a good sport "

> >or " don't be a wet blanket " (or simply, " drinking is

> >the way to have a good time " ), somehow neglecting to

> >add to the lesson: " Oh, and when you get raped as

> >a result, it's your own fault. "

>

this was good, Jane, yes. I like what you write, yes.

Juli ASD mother to Nicollette Rett Syndrome w/autism

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/12/2003 5:35:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

rep@... writes:

> 6)give in to peer pressure, we want you to be " normal " and have friends

> 7)if anyone hurts you it is because you did or said something wrong and it

> was definitely your fault

> 8)people have the right to touch you anytime they want, to refuse them is to

> be rude

>

I got these as well, but beyond mine parents, it was taught to me also in

mine 'special school.'

Juli ASD mother to Nicollette Rett Syndrome w/autism

[Guest guest]

I’m not saying that it’s their fault if they’re raped or beaten

or whatever, I’m just saying that if you are educated about these

things you lessen the chances of it happening to you. If it does

happen to you then it is, by all means, a crime and the

perpetrator should be punished for the crime, not the victim.

Whenever these things happen the first thing people wonder is

“Why were they there?” and the next thing you know the victim is

the one being scritunized.

It’s very easy for some people to be manipulated and lured into a

situation, so educating them is a benefit to them. You can’t

assume that someone else will educate your children about this

stuff; the words cannot go unsaid.

I, too, have been the victim of sexual assault, in my own home as

a child. There’s nowhere to go, and the only reason that you are

the victim in something like that is because you are there, and

no one else is. We have to educate our children about that, too.

And when your child tells you that someone is doing something to

them, you have to believe them, and take whatever steps are

necessary to protect them.

Louis

RE: speaking of sexual harassment,

etc.....

> Louis wrote:

> >Well, let me see, I am autistic. My mother taught me that :

> >1.) drinking is not a good way to have fun

> >I am naive, but that can be overcome by a proper education. I

> >lack common sense, but that can be overcome by proper

education.

> And to hell with anyone not lucky enough to have

> your mother (or a reasonable facsimile thereof)?

What confuses me on this whole issue is that people see it as an

either-or thing.

So you've got a situation here in which one person is intoxicated

and

another person rapes them while they're intoxicated and unable to

get

away. People seem to think that you can either have one of two

things

-- calling it rape and therefore encouraging people not to learn

their

lesson, or blaming the person who became intoxicated and

therefore

encouraging people to learn their lesson.

When I was a kid, I had it drilled into me very specifically that

when

you go to certain places, you do *not* wear certain colors,

because you

could get beaten up or killed.

Certainly ignorance should be remedied, and an " If you do this,

*you're

probably going to get raped at some point* " warning should be in

place,

and stupidity should be counseled against, but simply treating it

like

no crime was committed or like it's somehow lesser than " real "

rape is

wrong. And the " If they were drunk, they deserved it " *does*

encourage

potential rapists, which can't be said for the statement " This is

rape

and here's how to avoid it. "

[Guest guest]

Well, in my case my parents said in actions and words:

1) booze was more important than having food in the house

2) getting drunk was having a good time

3)taking your kids to the bars on weekends and spending all day there was

normal. All families do this.

4) sneaking out of the house at night after your kids feel asleep to go out

drinking till 4 am is the thing to do

5) a child getting up and staying awake till her parents came home because

she was scared for them was bad, bad, bad.

6)give in to peer pressure, we want you to be " normal " and have friends

7)if anyone hurts you it is because you did or said something wrong and it

was definitely your fault

8)people have the right to touch you anytime they want, to refuse them is to

be rude

Plus being autistic and naive, and sometimes I marvel that I was never

murdered. Some of my teachers in school were even worried about me at one

point because I was the perfect victim (their words).

Take care,

Gail :-)

[Guest guest]

Wrote:

>Certainly ignorance should be remedied, and an " If you do this, *you're

>probably going to get raped at some point* " warning should be in place,

>and stupidity should be counseled against, but simply treating it like

>no crime was committed or like it's somehow lesser than " real " rape is

>wrong. And the " If they were drunk, they deserved it " *does* encourage

>potential rapists, which can't be said for the statement " This is rape

>and here's how to avoid it. "

I totally agree. Did you know there is a date rape drug, GHB , a guy puts it

into a woman's drink, be it the 1st or the 7th, anywhere (even public places

like a bar) and she get's knocked out- it makes her look to the world as if she

is drunk. He then takes the woman to a private place and rapes her. The drug

only lasts 24 hrs, and there is no trace in the system.

It was unbelieveable how many college guys want to get a hold of this drug- it's

making the cops nuts because the victim is so confused, memory shot, they cannot

prosecute. The victim wakes up sometimes in the middle of the act, or in the

rapist's bedroom, confused and unsure. Usually the rapist lets her know that

she was raped by saying things like " thanks for the good time! " , etc. Plain old

rape is almost impossible to successfully prosecute in the first place (less

than 2% conviction rate.)

Talk about encourageing rapists!!

As far as I am conserned, rape is never a woman's fault- nothing gives a man the

right to have sex with a woman against her will- I don't give a shit what the

circumstances are. If a wife says no and her husband forces himself on her, he

has raped her. Period.

I get so infuriated at the damn media attacking Kobe 's victim. Who the

fuck do those morons think they are? Just because he is a celebrety, they think

he can do what ever he wants. I don't know if he's guilty, but there is enough

evidence to bring him to trial. That whole thing should be decided by the

courts, not the media. It's wrong for them to destroy her on national TV. If

he's guilty he should be punished for it.

Jeanette

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/12/2003 9:26:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

ceruleaniwa@... writes:

> -----do you ever rock to reggae? very good for rocking

> and swaying. (and yeah, I'm still trying to find

> other spectrum folk who have this also, I can't be the

> only one......unless, most of the folks at a reggae

> show are spectrumites and don't know it, ha!)

>

> Nanne

>

Oh, I've started doing this yes, I love rocking to reggae, yes, there is an

outside bar on the beach strip yes, that places reggae, yes, on south beach,

yes.

Juli ASD mother to Nicollette Rett Syndrome w/autism

[Guest guest]

--- Jeanette wrote:

>

> As far as I am conserned, rape is never a woman's

> fault- nothing gives a man the right to have sex

> with a woman against her will- I don't give a shit

> what the circumstances are. If a wife says no and

> her husband forces himself on her, he has raped her.

> Period.

---------It is if a woman changes her mind the day

after, in order to save her 'reputation', and calls it

rape....

On that note, I disliked the movie 'the

Accused', because i don't think women have a right to

go around sexily dry-humping men and teasing them,

either.

>

> I get so infuriated at the damn media attacking Kobe

> 's victim. Who the fuck do those morons think

> they are? Just because he is a celebrety, they

> think he can do what ever he wants. I don't know if

> he's guilty, but there is enough evidence to bring

> him to trial. That whole thing should be decided by

> the courts, not the media. It's wrong for them to

> destroy her on national TV. If he's guilty he

> should be punished for it.

>

> Jeanette

>

--------Right, but you're already on the side of the

'victim', and judging him.

The girl worked at the hotel. She went up to his

hotel room of her own free will, after her shift had

ended. What was on her mind, her motive? Now, he had

no right, if it turns out it occurred, to have knocked

her down and rape her, and if he did, it's a crime and

he should go to jail.

But think of this: those NBA guys get women

throwing themselves at them allllll the time, the guy

would barely need to resort to that.

My suspicion is a starry eyed girl who may have

thought it would be cool to be laid by an NBA player,

and had regrets the next day. If it turns out

otherwise, I'll be as happy as anyone to see him go to

jail.

Nanne

=====

" Let's go get drunk on light again---it has the power to console. " --

Seurat

[Guest guest]

--- Gail Pennington wrote:

> Well, in my case my parents said in actions and

> words:

>

> 1) booze was more important than having food in the

> house

> 2) getting drunk was having a good time

> 3)taking your kids to the bars on weekends and

> spending all day there was

> normal. All families do this.

> 4) sneaking out of the house at night after your

> kids feel asleep to go out

> drinking till 4 am is the thing to do

> 5) a child getting up and staying awake till her

> parents came home because

> she was scared for them was bad, bad, bad.

> 6)give in to peer pressure, we want you to be

> " normal " and have friends

> 7)if anyone hurts you it is because you did or said

> something wrong and it

> was definitely your fault

> 8)people have the right to touch you anytime they

> want, to refuse them is to

> be rude

>

> Plus being autistic and naive, and sometimes I

> marvel that I was never

> murdered. Some of my teachers in school were even

> worried about me at one

> point because I was the perfect victim (their

> words).

>

> Take care,

> Gail :-)

>

----------I grew up in a partying/drinking household

also, Gail, and while not as bad as yours, still had a

poor sense/knowledge of personal boundaries which left

me wide open and vulnerable to some bad situations.

Nanne

=====

" Let's go get drunk on light again---it has the power to console. " --

Seurat

[Guest guest]

Jeanette wrote:

> As far as I am conserned, rape is never a woman's fault- nothing

> gives a man the right to have sex with a woman against her will- I

> don't give a shit what the circumstances are.

What if the woman is the rapist? Is it still not her fault?

> I get so infuriated at the damn media attacking Kobe 's victim.

Alleged victim. Neither you nor I was there; we do not know what

happened, but there is a presumption of innocence until proven otherwise

here.

> Who the fuck do those morons think they are? Just because he is a

> celebrety, they think he can do what ever he wants.

I don't know that the media think that. They think that this is a story

that gets ratings, and it is.

> I don't know if

> he's guilty, but there is enough evidence to bring him to trial.

> That whole thing should be decided by the courts, not the media.

> It's wrong for them to destroy her on national TV. If he's guilty he

> should be punished for it.

Since we don't know what happened, it could be equally wrong for them to

destroy on national TV, which is assuredly happening. He has

already lost at least one endorsement deal, and probably will get no

others, even if he is found not guilty. This is in addition to the

destruction that is happening to his reputation. It is not just the

alleged victim that is being trashed, but you have only sympathy for

her. You wrote above that you do not know if he is guilty, but you seem

to have presumed that he is.

[Guest guest]

Hi Nanne,

> ----------I grew up in a partying/drinking household

> also, Gail, and while not as bad as yours, still had a

> poor sense/knowledge of personal boundaries which left

> me wide open and vulnerable to some bad situations.

Yeah, that's the point. We autistics are clueless and naive to begin with.

That along with being raised in such a manner that does not teach us

boundaries and protection, makes us that much more vulnerable.

My past has decided to come up and hit me in the face again. This happens to

me every once in awhile. Old feelings, thought forgotten, seem to come up

and demand I deal with them. I think they like to come up out of the deep

dark when I am feeling safe enough to deal with them. This has been my

pattern for years.

I get out my music and work through it. After I do, I always feel better and

stronger. But before then, I sometimes wonder if I will lose my mind. ;-)

Take care,

Gail :-)

[Guest guest]

Nanne wrote:

>But think of this: those NBA guys get women

> throwing themselves at them allllll the time, the guy

> would barely need to resort to that.

> My suspicion is a starry eyed girl who may have

> thought it would be cool to be laid by an NBA player,

> and had regrets the next day. If it turns out

> otherwise, I'll be as happy as anyone to see him go to

> jail.

Dick and I were discussing this the other day. Another way to look at is

this. Precisely because these guys are used to getting just about any girl

they want, they get a tremendous ego. Then some little nobody (in their

eyes) comes along and refuses Mr. Important Basketball Star. Ego is bruised,

how dare that little nobody refuse Big Important Me. I will show her!

It will be interesting to see how this turns out!

Take care,

Gail :-)

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> I don't know that the media think that. They think that this is a story

> that gets ratings, and it is.

I agree. They don't care who they trash, just as long as they get those

ratings. Today's darling can quickly become tomorrow's pariah.

> It is not just the

> alleged victim that is being trashed, but you have only sympathy for

> her. You wrote above that you do not know if he is guilty, but you seem

> to have presumed that he is.

I have noticed that in a situation like this, a lot of people tend to take

one side or the other. For whatever reason, it is hard for them to stay

unbiased. I have no idea who is guilty or innocent in this situation, but it

does not provoke strong feelings in me. There have been other media

situations (think OJ) that triggered me and had me completely flipping out

and irrational at times.

Take care,

Gail :-)

[Guest guest]

Nanne wrote:

>---------It is if a woman changes her mind the day

>after, in order to save her 'reputation', and calls it

>rape....

No, that would not be rape, if she consented the night before and regrets being

with him, or whatever. Women who falsely accuse men of rape have fucked it up

for the rest of us. It's so hard to prove rape to begin with, and then we have

women lying, making it even harder and giving rapists an edge. They are

betraying rape victims over again.

> On that note, I disliked the movie 'the

>Accused', because I don't think women have a right to

>go around sexily dry-humping men and teasing them,

>either.

Yes, this is true- women shouldn't be teases. I don't think that is right. But

just because she is a tease doesn't give the guy the right to rape her. Maybe be

very angry and frustrated and learn not to date her anymore. Men I hope are not

animals, and can control themselves.

--------Right, but you're already on the side of the

'victim', and judging him.

The girl worked at the hotel. She went up to his

hotel room of her own free will, after her shift had

ended. What was on her mind, her motive? Now, he had

no right, if it turns out it occurred, to have knocked

her down and rape her, and if he did, it's a crime and

he should go to jail.

But think of this: those NBA guys get women

throwing themselves at them allllll the time, the guy

would barely need to resort to that.

And let me respectfully say that you are already on his side and judging her.

What was her motive? Who the hell knows. Yes, it was a stupid move, SO? Maybe

she wanted to hang out with an NBA star. SO? So what if UNBELEIVABLY stupid

women throw themselves at NBA stars. He is married. Just because women throw

themselves at him doesn't give him an automatic pass to committ adultery. If he

can't resist temptation he shouldn't be married.

And if the girl just wanted to hang out- it's obvious she had issues, tried to

kill herself twice before, was vulnerable and unstable, too naive (small

Colorado town) to realize what was going on. He couldn't handle the fact that

she said no, so he raped her, knowing that celebreties get away with all kinds

of shit. Hell, OJ got away with a double murder- probably one of the more

vicious ones to date, too. After all, the least we CAN say is he could care

less about his wife. What's another rule to him?

My suspicion is a starry eyed girl who may have

thought it would be cool to be laid by an NBA player,

and had regrets the next day. If it turns out

otherwise, I'll be as happy as anyone to see him go to

jail.

I seriously doubt she would lie about that- are you kidding me? She HAD to know

she would be under so much scrutiny and abuse, that if it didn't happen, she'd

be putting up with all kinds of shit for nothing. The rape counselors say that

false reporting is very rare, and I'd have to agree with that.

With celebrities getting away with murder, and the rape conviction at 2% or

less, she had to know from day one that she's got a snowball's chance in hell.

She wouldn't go through with it unless she wanted to stand up for herself.

WHAT the HELL is she going to get out of lying? For crying out loud she's

gotten repeated DEATH THREATS, from stupid sports obsessed misogynists, who

think every man has the right to brutalize women. I've seen it on some sites

myself- these morons talking about how she deserves it, and she should be

killed, and that all women deserve it.

That poor girl has very little privacy, all her friends are talking trash about

her, she can't do anything without it being noticed and twisted. She has no

life now. And it's wrong.

And trust me, I don't think they should focus on Kobe either- I don't want to

see that jerk's face on TV, dammit. I want real news (like what happened to the

old man driver in the Santa market crash- he killed 10 people and ran

over 69.)

What enrages me the most is that all the media attention on BOTH Kobe and the

victim has caused rape victims to stop coming forward because they now see how

misogynistic this society is and how likely it is that they will not be

believed, or tossed aside. Makes me SO MAD!! Men usually get away with rape

and now this makes it so much easier.

Ultimately I think they should let a jury decide, based on the evidence. Yes, I

am biased, but a lot of people are in this case ( and I think my points are

valid). That's one reason why it shouldn't be in the media.

Jeanette

[Guest guest]

--- Gail Pennington wrote:

> Hi Nanne,

>

>

> My past has decided to come up and hit me in the

> face again. This happens to

> me every once in awhile. Old feelings, thought

> forgotten, seem to come up

> and demand I deal with them. I think they like to

> come up out of the deep

> dark when I am feeling safe enough to deal with

> them. This has been my

> pattern for years.

>

> I get out my music and work through it. After I do,

> I always feel better and

> stronger. But before then, I sometimes wonder if I

> will lose my mind. ;-)

>

> Take care,

> Gail :-)

>

------What do you do with your music; listen to it,

play it, dance to it? That's good you have something

that helps you with that.

I'm hoping all my past stuff is just...over, the

past, I seem to have some odd distance to it, which I

like. And of course it helped when my dad died, to

leave more of it behind too.

Nanne

=====

" Let's go get drunk on light again---it has the power to console. " --

Seurat

[Guest guest]

--- Gail Pennington wrote:

> Nanne wrote:

> >But think of this: those NBA guys get women

> > throwing themselves at them allllll the time, the

> guy

> > would barely need to resort to that.

> > My suspicion is a starry eyed girl who may

> have

> > thought it would be cool to be laid by an NBA

> player,

> > and had regrets the next day. If it turns out

> > otherwise, I'll be as happy as anyone to see him

> go to

> > jail.

>

> Dick and I were discussing this the other day.

> Another way to look at is

> this. Precisely because these guys are used to

> getting just about any girl

> they want, they get a tremendous ego. Then some

> little nobody (in their

> eyes) comes along and refuses Mr. Important

> Basketball Star. Ego is bruised,

> how dare that little nobody refuse Big Important Me.

> I will show her!

>

> It will be interesting to see how this turns out!

>

> Take care,

> Gail :-)

>

--------Well, that's another possibility also. I

still don't think young women should be going up to

men's hotel rooms 'to party'.

(let us old broads go ---HAHA!)

Eh, sorry, couldn't resist there

Nanne

=====

" Let's go get drunk on light again---it has the power to console. " --

Seurat

[Guest guest]

--- Gail Pennington wrote:

> wrote:

> > I don't know that the media think that. They

> think that this is a story

> > that gets ratings, and it is.

>

> I agree. They don't care who they trash, just as

> long as they get those

> ratings. Today's darling can quickly become

> tomorrow's pariah.

>

>

> I have noticed that in a situation like this, a lot

> of people tend to take

> one side or the other. For whatever reason, it is

> hard for them to stay

> unbiased. I have no idea who is guilty or innocent

> in this situation, but it

> does not provoke strong feelings in me. There have

> been other media

> situations (think OJ) that triggered me and had me

> completely flipping out

> and irrational at times.

>

> Take care,

> Gail :-)

>

----------For some reason, I'm seeing other people

respond to others' posts that are not coming through

in my email, s' for instance.

Yeah, Gail, the O.J. thing kept me rivveted for

awhile....but I had to turn the t.v. off...Max was 5,

I think, and became afraid, asking if O.J. was " the

boogeyman " and would he come to our house.

Nanne

=====

" Let's go get drunk on light again---it has the power to console. " --

Seurat

[Guest guest]

wrote:

>What if the woman is the rapist? Is it still not her fault?

Obviously, if a woman is a rapist, then her " fault " is being a rapist or child

molester. But how can a woman rape a man? I guess she could if she sodomized

him with an istrument. But you can't get certain items to stand up, if you know

what I mean and have a woman rape a man that way. SEDUCE, yes. And if she has

bad intentions, like using him- that is wrong.

I was talking about when a WOMAN is raped. Not the other way around. I imagine

the statistics on women being raped by men are way higher than men being raped

by women.

>Alleged victim. Neither you nor I was there; we do not know what

>happened, but there is a presumption of innocence until proven otherwise

>here.

>Since we don't know what happened, it could be equally wrong for them to

>destroy on national TV, which is assuredly happening. He has

>already lost at least one endorsement deal, and probably will get no

>others, even if he is found not guilty. This is in addition to the

>destruction that is happening to his reputation. It is not just the

>alleged victim that is being trashed, but you have only sympathy for

>her. You wrote above that you do not know if he is guilty, but you seem

>to have presumed that he is.

OK. You got me. I'm a biased- You're right, I know, it's presumed innocent. (

But I'm still biased- I'm trying to be more balanced, but it's hard! I

definatly shouldn't be on the jury)

I'm sorry , it's hard for me to have sympathy for an NBA player. In the

end, he will still have millions. She may lose her sanity and kill herself or

worse.

No one wins in this whole thing- it's not good for anyone.

No, they don't have the right to destroy him either, until a guilty verdict

comes in. If he is innocent it's unfair for him to lose endorsements and lots

of money. The entire affair should have been kept private, for everyone's sake.

One thing we know for sure is that he DID cheat on his wife, by his own

admisson. He said he was sorry, but in my opinon that was a pathetic apology.

You know, that is going to affect his reputation. Not as bad as a full on rape,

but it has an effect, no matter what-even if he apologises. Some people say it

was real and others no. Who really knows- only Kobe.

Jeanette

[Guest guest]

Hi again Nanne!

(I'm the little chatterbox today, aren't I?)

You wrote:

> ------What do you do with your music; listen to it,

> play it, dance to it? That's good you have something

> that helps you with that.

Listen to it and rock. It helps me really feel it. When I was a child I did

not allow myself to feel much of anything. I thought it was wrong. So I

embrace those feelings, even when it is painful. I also fantasize when I

work through it. I have a fantasy world, and often use it when I need it.

> I'm hoping all my past stuff is just...over, the

> past, I seem to have some odd distance to it, which I

> like. And of course it helped when my dad died, to

> leave more of it behind too.

> Nanne

At one time I also felt a detachment from my past. One counselor I had years

ago noted how I talked about what happened to me with absolutely no emotion.

That changed. All these emotions that I thought were not there decide to let

me know from time to time that they are not to be denied. That's the way it

happens with me anyway. :-)

Take care,

Gail :-)

[Guest guest]

Jeanette danced around singing:

>But how can a woman rape a man? I guess she could if she sodomized him

>with an istrument. But you can't get certain items to stand up, if you

>know what I mean and have a woman rape a man that way.

From what I've heard, it's possible to make a man erect by touching him

correctly, whether *he* wants it to do that or not. There are some guys

out there (like my ex) that are so incapable of saying " no " -- just like

some women -- that they really would just sit there feeling helpless. So I

can very easily see a man with the inability to reject women in a situation

where an aggressive female manages to use his body for sex even though he

doesn't want it at all.

DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy