re: Weird...

[Guest guest]

nne Vanderveen-Kolkena " wrote:

>

" Something really weird has happened in a few posts concerning

follow-up calls. Reading through them, I saw myself back as someone

who doesn't care enough or at least not as much as and Anne

do, to make follow-up calls a standard issue for days or weeks towards

the moms that have consulted me and it's the holistic practitioner or

the LLL-leader in the lc that makes that happen. Sorry, but this is

too pretentious in my view. It's enough to say that you as a person

have decided to do that, for whatever reason, but it's a bridge too

far to hang it up on whole professions and set yourself apart as more

generous or more caring. "

nne,

I guess I am surprised that you think my comments are a commentary on

your work. This is how " I " practice based on my way of working with

women. Years ago, when I ran a clinic-based Breastfeeding Peer

Counseling Program, I saw the difference it made when peer counselors

were on-top of f/u calls and when they were not. While I agree that we

all need to be responsible for our own outcomes in life (and I REALLY

believe that), I do not see it as precluding f/u support. The other

thing is that I tend to see clients with very complex problems and I

get very frustrated if I do not know how things change on a frequent

basis. I think women who do not want to succeed will not succeed no

matter what we do and I certainly do not impose calls on people who do

not want them. And, many mothers willingly call me--I never have to

call them.

Given the intense brutality of birth here in the US, I think women are

made fragile (I do not think women are inherently fragile after giving

birth) and I think they have often lost their sense of power and their

inner compasses. I think of my support as being like bumpers in a

bowling alley--they just keep you from going into the gutter. They

don't assure a strike. (I don't bowl--so my analogy ends there).

I have no belief that what works for me works for everyone or that

this would be true across cultures! I do stand by my contention that

in the US--holistic practitioners are far more likely to f/u than

allopaths. That may not be true everywhere.

Tow, IBCLC, CT, USA

Intuitive Parenting Network, LLC

[Guest guest]

Good grief. To whomever I may have offended with my reflections on how I follow-up, I apologize. My intention was simply to share how I practice - not how every LC in the world should practice. I understood the question about whether or not I felt responsible for following up with mothers as a question for me alone. My answer was yes. For me. Personally. I like to phone mothers. It seems impossible to think of everything a mother might need to know during a consult. I count on feedback for fine-tuning a situation. There is no extra charge to the mother for follow-up phone calls. A follow-up visit would be an extra charge. From some of the posts here I gather that some LCs actually have the luxury of doing some easy consults sometimes. I'm lucky to get one or two yearly of the easy ones. There is a lot of good bf help in my vicinity - classes, LLL, IBCLCs in every hospital, lots of well educated women, computer savey, etc.. Most mothers who call me have exhausted those sources. They need a lot of help. I certainly don't feel that I'm taking over, making all their decisions for them. The point I was making when I said they send cards, etc. long afterwards was not because I need the accolades, which are always nice, of course, but rather - and more importantly, to point out how much it means to moms months and years later that they succeeded with a difficult breastfeeding situation. Today I got a call from a mother who who wanted help to quit because pumping is too difficult for her. Baby can't nurse well due to a tongue tie, recessed chin, and mothers large pendulous breasts. The father refuses to have the frenulum clipped. I haven't phoned this mother very much but I'm ok with her decision because I feel this is their right and nothing to do with how many follow-up phone calls I did or did not make. Please know that my remarks are NEVER meant to offend or criticize anyone on this list. In fact, I would imagine that the very fact that folks are on this list attests to how seriously they take their profession. It is my honor to be in such company.

Anne Grider

Weird...

Hi all,

Something really weird has happened in a few posts concerning follow-up calls.

Reading through them, I saw myself back as someone who doesn't care enough or at least not as much as and Anne do, to make follow-up calls a standard issue for days or weeks towards the moms that have consulted me and it's the holistic practitioner or the LLL-leader in the lc that makes that happen. Sorry, but this is too pretentious in my view. It's enough to say that you as a person have decided to do that, for whatever reason, but it's a bridge too far to hang it up on whole professions and set yourself apart as more generous or more caring.

One thing clear: for thirteen years, I have been a VBN-leader (the Dutch equivalent of an LLL-leader) and although it is definitely not part of what we as volunteers within our organisation are supposed to do, I have always done home-visits. That is probably why I decided to become an lc anyway. I, too, encounter moms who were in my groups years and years ago and still let me know how much my help and support meant to them. Great. Wonderful. Good, I could be there. They don't need to constantly applaud me for that, though, because at the end of the day: THEY did the work. If they succeed, it is *not* because of me, but because they were able to apply what I offered, to take and accept what I was willing to give, to learn from the experience I had already made, all of that in the interest of their infants/children. I have been there for so many mothers; some succeeded, others did not, even though I invested the equal amount of time and energy. In the end, however, it was always *their* responsibility, not mine.

We're surely heading the wrong way if we think that it *is* our responsibility to help moms through. That is, as nice as it may seem, *disempowering*!! It is part of Gordon's communication blocks/hindrances, that, among many other actions, include praising, agreeing, comforting, sympathising, consoling, supporting. When I first read those, I thought: "This can't be true. These must be wonderful ways of helping someone!" Maybe the translation is not fully correct; of course, part of these can be very useful, but as Gordon says: the hinderblocks can convey underlying messages with seriously negative consequences for the self-image and self-esteem. Constantly offering support and help sort of says: "I think you cannot deal with this on your own, so let me help you."

In conclusion: we have to find a middle way. When we teach children at a young age that it is fully okay to ask for help if you have a problem with something, then they will, provided they live in a safe environment, where people are willing to actively listen to them and make time to help solve the problem, so: not *solve* the problem, but *help* solve the problem. When children have not learned that in childhood, they can learn it as adolescents or adults, although it may be more difficult then. The fact that so many women get into trouble with breastfeeding in the first place and then don't ask for help at the right time (early on!!) has, in my not so humble opinion, to do with the fact that they did not learn at a young age that asking for help is a sign of strength, instead of a sign of weakness. It's almost without exception, I reckon, that those (men and women alike) who have most difficulty with asking for help (or: allowing interdependency into their social relationships), will get into the deepest trouble. Both my mom and my sister more or less died because of it.

Therefore, I welcome women into my group, my practice, my presence, and encourage them time and again to contact me if they feel the need. I do my utmost to make sure they feel safe and heard with me and to actively listen to them, use I-messages instead of you-messages, use wording that allows for many options instead of saying what is necessary, and then repeat, repeat, repeat that I am there and willing to think possible problems or questions or doubts through with them. After that, it is *my* responsibility to live up to that promise, make time for them on the phone and promptly answer e-mails. And so I do.

Of course, there may be this individual mom that needs more support and you give it. But just like we cannot make a baby breastfeed, we cannot make a mom solve her problems. A child will not learn to ride a bike, as long as we don't let it go and let it find its own balance. Mothers have to find a new balance with their baby, with their partner, with their family. We can offer suggestions, but these stand the biggest chance of being implemented when a mom is open to the idea that she is not in balance yet. It's her own (conscious, not subconscious!!) awareness that counts and that will make the difference. Like with self attachment after birth: very hard sometimes, to just watch and stand by, but necessary nevertheless.

Warmly,

nne Vanderveen, Netherlands

[Guest guest]

i agree, and over time, as we have become busier, we have needed to scale back the amount of follow up phone calls we can make - as we have had to do that, we have instituted a practice of automatically scheduling clients for follow up appointment - a few days out, to a week or so out, depending on their situation and what makes the most sense.

i think to many lactation consultants coming from a volunteer background (i do too - LLL) undervalue their services and attempt to save their clients money, when those practices actually under-provide for them in practical ways. i really have found that *in* person follow up is highly valuable for the vast majority of clients.

so, when clients complete their initial consult, we schedule them then and there for a follow up. if they cancel, because all is well, fine. we reiterate that they can call ANY time in between if things change or they have questions.

an especially high need client may receive more effort from the lactation consultant as deemed necessary. someone with PPD, or who just isn't reaching out for help and the LC feels that our efforts keeping the contact will make the difference.

warmly, Lyla

[Guest guest]

thanks anne - i never perceived that anyone was judging anyone else, but it's good to hear how some others perceive.

we are all very passionate about our work and our approach, which we have all undoubtedly fine tuned over time and feel comfortable and happy with, or we would not be continuing to use it. i personally find it eye opening to hear how other dedicated, passionate, skilled LCs practice, when it varies from my own approach - and sometimes i incorporate their ideas and revise my practice as a result.

warmly, Lyla

Weird...

Hi all,

Something really weird has happened in a few posts concerning follow-up calls.

Reading through them, I saw myself back as someone who doesn't care enough or at least not as much as and Anne do, to make follow-up calls a standard issue for days or weeks towards the moms that have consulted me and it's the holistic practitioner or the LLL-leader in the lc that makes that happen. Sorry, but this is too pretentious in my view. It's enough to say that you as a person have decided to do that, for whatever reason, but it's a bridge too far to hang it up on whole professions and set yourself apart as more generous or more caring.

One thing clear: for thirteen years, I have been a VBN-leader (the Dutch equivalent of an LLL-leader) and although it is definitely not part of what we as volunteers within our organisation are supposed to do, I have always done home-visits. That is probably why I decided to become an lc anyway. I, too, encounter moms who were in my groups years and years ago and still let me know how much my help and support meant to them. Great. Wonderful. Good, I could be there. They don't need to constantly applaud me for that, though, because at the end of the day: THEY did the work. If they succeed, it is *not* because of me, but because they were able to apply what I offered, to take and accept what I was willing to give, to learn from the experience I had already made, all of that in the interest of their infants/children. I have been there for so many mothers; some succeeded, others did not, even though I invested the equal amount of time and energy. In the end, however, it was always *their* responsibility, not mine.

We're surely heading the wrong way if we think that it *is* our responsibility to help moms through. That is, as nice as it may seem, *disempowering*!! It is part of Gordon's communication blocks/hindrances, that, among many other actions, include praising, agreeing, comforting, sympathising, consoling, supporting. When I first read those, I thought: "This can't be true. These must be wonderful ways of helping someone!" Maybe the translation is not fully correct; of course, part of these can be very useful, but as Gordon says: the hinderblocks can convey underlying messages with seriously negative consequences for the self-image and self-esteem. Constantly offering support and help sort of says: "I think you cannot deal with this on your own, so let me help you."

In conclusion: we have to find a middle way. When we teach children at a young age that it is fully okay to ask for help if you have a problem with something, then they will, provided they live in a safe environment, where people are willing to actively listen to them and make time to help solve the problem, so: not *solve* the problem, but *help* solve the problem. When children have not learned that in childhood, they can learn it as adolescents or adults, although it may be more difficult then. The fact that so many women get into trouble with breastfeeding in the first place and then don't ask for help at the right time (early on!!) has, in my not so humble opinion, to do with the fact that they did not learn at a young age that asking for help is a sign of strength, instead of a sign of weakness. It's almost without exception, I reckon, that those (men and women alike) who have most difficulty with asking for help (or: allowing interdependency into their social relationships), will get into the deepest trouble. Both my mom and my sister more or less died because of it.

Therefore, I welcome women into my group, my practice, my presence, and encourage them time and again to contact me if they feel the need. I do my utmost to make sure they feel safe and heard with me and to actively listen to them, use I-messages instead of you-messages, use wording that allows for many options instead of saying what is necessary, and then repeat, repeat, repeat that I am there and willing to think possible problems or questions or doubts through with them. After that, it is *my* responsibility to live up to that promise, make time for them on the phone and promptly answer e-mails. And so I do.

Of course, there may be this individual mom that needs more support and you give it. But just like we cannot make a baby breastfeed, we cannot make a mom solve her problems. A child will not learn to ride a bike, as long as we don't let it go and let it find its own balance. Mothers have to find a new balance with their baby, with their partner, with their family. We can offer suggestions, but these stand the biggest chance of being implemented when a mom is open to the idea that she is not in balance yet. It's her own (conscious, not subconscious!!) awareness that counts and that will make the difference. Like with self attachment after birth: very hard sometimes, to just watch and stand by, but necessary nevertheless.

Warmly,

nne Vanderveen, Netherlands