Guest guest Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Happy New Year! I just have to stick my 2 cents in on this topic. I don't think that we can extrapolate from human medicine and condemn fluoroquinolones in dogs. Additionally, both of the drugs cited are not the commonly used fluoroquinolones in veterinary medicine. I think that until there is hard evidence that supports discontinuing using them in dogs, we should not make make suggestions to avoid their usage. Experience wise, since Baytril hit the market (15 - 20 years ago?) I have not seen any tendon injury associated with their usage, nor have I seen any tendon injury after their usage. Does anyone on this list know of any citation or reference addressing this human problem? By the way, I do not work for Bayer nor am I getting paid to say this (I wish I was though). Mark B. Parchman, DVM, DACVS, CVA 1245 SE 3rd St., Suite C3 Tel Bend, Oregon 97702 Fax tomlinson wrote: Hi Laurie It is something we always talked about when I used to treat horses, not sure in the small animal world but I avoid them in canine athletes Tomlinson BVSc MS PhD DACVS CCRP Certified Canine Rehabilitation Practitioner Twin Cities Animal Rehabilitation Clinic 12010 Riverwood Dr, Burnsville MN 55337 www.tcrehab.com From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ] On Behalf Of Dr. Laurie McCauley Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 3:15 PM To: VetRehab Subject: Tendon issues with Ab'sl? I saw this come across another list that I belong to and was wondering if anyone had heard anything about it? Group Sues FDA for Stronger Warnings Jan 3, 7:16 PM (ET) WASHINGTON (AP) - A consumer group sued the Food and Drug Administration Thursday, charging the agency is ignoring calls for stronger warnings that Cipro and similar antibiotics may cause serious tendon injuries. Labels of the fluoroquinolone family of antibiotics - drugs that include the popular Cipro and Levaquin - already warn about rupture of tendons and other tendon injuries, but at the bottom of a list of other side effects. The consumer group Public Citizen wants those warnings upgraded to the FDA's most severe type, a so-called black-box warning - and for patients to get pamphlets with every bottle that describe the risk. It argues that too few patients know they're supposed to quit using the drugs if they experience symptoms such as pain or inflammation, before the tendon actually ruptures. Public Citizen filed a petition seeking the stronger warning in August 2006. The state of Illinois had filed a similar petition the previous year. The FDA is violating its own statutes and putting patients at risk in taking so long to settle the issue, Public Citizen said in the suit filed in U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia. When Public Citizen first filed the petition, FDA's database showed 262 reports of tendon ruptures between November 1997 and December 2005, along with hundreds of other tendon problems in users of these antibiotics. Since then, the FDA has received an additional 74 reports of tendon ruptures, said Public Citizen's Dr. Sidney Wolfe. Only a fraction of drug side effects typically are reported to the agency, he noted. An FDA spokesman said the agency was evaluating the lawsuit and declined comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 Dear , This info was given to me by my collegue who is a board vet pathologist and teaches at uni. This was the result of her correlation of the literature and I did not find anything in it to discredit the info. Perhaps it was not as well researched as I had assumed but it was quite extensive. As for my findings - they are real. There are definitely a number of the cruciate dogs I see with other sites of inflammation. I never looked for inflammation anywhere else in the body before reading this info from my collegue and would only address the biomechanics (with success). However I have found it interesting to note other findings , regard the dog as a whole and attempt to address them as part of the whole animal. Dr Toni Lynch BVSc Hons GDAnimal Chiro RE: Tendon issues with Fluoroquinolones Hi All, If we come up with a survey, Clean run may be willing to put it up on their website. Clean run is “the” magazine company for agility people. This way we could reach a large percentage of canine athlete owners. I am not a researcher so I would need some help. What I was thinking was to ask people: Has your athlete torn his or her cruciate? Was your athlete on any medication just prior to or when this happened? If yes, was an antibiotic or NSAID? (this way people will not freak out thinking ab’s are going to cause cruciate damage?????) If your dog has torn their cruciate and was on or recently on an antibiotic, which antibiotic (list 10 or more) Maybe a similar question with NSAIDs Again, any thoughts/help or letting me know this would mot be a good thing to do would be appreciated J Laurie McCauley, DVM TOPS Veterinary Rehabilitation Grayslake, IL drmctops-vet-rehab www.tops-vet-rehab.com From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ] On Behalf Of dogptSent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 8:14 PMTo: VetRehab Subject: Re: Tendon issues with Fluoroquinolones Mark, Quinolone induced tendon ruptures have been described in the literature dating back to the early and mid 80's. A medline search will reveal many cited references. These cases are rare, although I have treated one patient with an achilles tendon rupture and had a co-worker rupture both achilles tendons while on quinolones. I have not heard this mentioned occuring in the canine population, however, much of the phase I and II studies were performed on dogs. Ria Acciani MPT Acciani PT Advanced Canine Rehabilitation 6 Kenquit Road Happy New Year!I just have to stick my 2 cents in on this topic. I don't think that we can extrapolate from human medicine and condemn fluoroquinolones in dogs. Additionally, both of the drugs cited are not the commonly used fluoroquinolones in veterinary medicine. I think that until there is hard evidence that supports discontinuing using them in dogs, we should not make make suggestions to avoid their usage. Experience wise, since Baytril hit the market (15 - 20 years ago?) I have not seen any tendon injury associated with their usage, nor have I seen any tendon injury after their usage. Does anyone on this list know of any citation or reference addressing this human problem? By the way, I do not work for Bayer nor am I getting paid to say this (I wish I was though). Mark B. Parchman, DVM, DACVS, CVA <clip_image002.gif> 1245 SE 3rd St., Suite C3 Tel Bend, Oregon 97702 Fax tomlinson wrote: Hi Laurie It is something we always talked about when I used to treat horses, not sure in the small animal world but I avoid them in canine athletes Tomlinson BVSc MS PhD DACVS CCRP Certified Canine Rehabilitation Practitioner Twin Cities Animal Rehabilitation Clinic 12010 Riverwood Dr, Burnsville MN 55337 www.tcrehab.com <mime-attachment.jpeg> From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ] On Behalf Of Dr. Laurie McCauleySent: Friday, January 04, 2008 3:15 PMTo: VetRehab Subject: Tendon issues with Ab'sl? I saw this come across another list that I belong to and was wondering if anyone had heard anything about it? Group Sues FDA for Stronger Warnings Jan 3, 7:16 PM (ET) WASHINGTON (AP) - A consumer group sued the Food and Drug Administration Thursday, charging the agency is ignoring calls for stronger warnings that Cipro and similar antibiotics may cause serious tendon injuries. Labels of the fluoroquinolone family of antibiotics - drugs that include the popular Cipro and Levaquin - already warn about rupture of tendons and other tendon injuries, but at the bottom of a list of other side effects. The consumer group Public Citizen wants those warnings upgraded to the FDA's most severe type, a so-called black-box warning - and for patients to get pamphlets with every bottle that describe the risk. It argues that too few patients know they're supposed to quit using the drugs if they experience symptoms such as pain or inflammation, before the tendon actually ruptures. Public Citizen filed a petition seeking the stronger warning in August 2006. The state of Illinois had filed a similar petition the previous year. The FDA is violating its own statutes and putting patients at risk in taking so long to settle the issue, Public Citizen said in the suit filed in U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia. When Public Citizen first filed the petition, FDA's database showed 262 reports of tendon ruptures between November 1997 and December 2005, along with hundreds of other tendon problems in users of these antibiotics. Since then, the FDA has received an additional 74 reports of tendon ruptures, said Public Citizen's Dr. Sidney Wolfe. Only a fraction of drug side effects typically are reported to the agency, he noted. An FDA spokesman said the agency was evaluating the lawsuit and declined comment. Warren, NJ 07059 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 Hi, Not to be a naysayer, but...... I do agree that we need more information about cruciate disease/rupture but I am concerned that a survey for the average dog owner (even the more sophisticated sporting dog types) could lead to more headaches and no clear answers. We do not need to put anymore questionable information out there for the public to take as fact. There are so many variables to consider when looking at something as prevelant as cruciate rupture like breed, body condition score, concurrent disease, etc. What about doing a retrospective of cruciate repairs from Universities or referral clinics to see if it is even statistally significant that dogs on medication (or antibiotics) rupture their cruciates? Both cruciate rupture and the use of fluroquinolones are common events, it could be relatively easy to make a false link between the two. We desperately need to move away from cause and effect thinking. I really support exploring the questions but I think this question is too big and too easy to misconstrue the results. A. Roos DVM"Dr. Laurie McCauley" wrote: Hi All, If we come up with a survey, Clean run may be willing to put it up on their website. Clean run is “the” magazine company for agility people. This way we could reach a large percentage of canine athlete owners. I am not a researcher so I would need some help. What I was thinking was to ask people: Has your athlete torn his or her cruciate? Was your athlete on any medication just prior to or when this happened? If yes, was an antibiotic or NSAID? (this way people will not freak out thinking ab’s are going to cause cruciate damage?????) If your dog has torn their cruciate and was on or recently on an antibiotic, which antibiotic (list 10 or more) Maybe a similar question with NSAIDs Again, any thoughts/help or letting me know this would mot be a good thing to do would be appreciated J Laurie McCauley, DVM TOPS Veterinary Rehabilitation Grayslake, IL drmctops-vet-rehab www.tops-vet-rehab.com From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ] On Behalf Of dogptSent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 8:14 PMTo: VetRehab Subject: Re: Tendon issues with Fluoroquinolones Mark, Quinolone induced tendon ruptures have been described in the literature dating back to the early and mid 80's. A medline search will reveal many cited references. These cases are rare, although I have treated one patient with an achilles tendon rupture and had a co-worker rupture both achilles tendons while on quinolones. I have not heard this mentioned occuring in the canine population, however, much of the phase I and II studies were performed on dogs. Ria Acciani MPT Acciani PT Advanced Canine Rehabilitation 6 Kenquit Road Happy New Year!I just have to stick my 2 cents in on this topic. I don't think that we can extrapolate from human medicine and condemn fluoroquinolones in dogs. Additionally, both of the drugs cited are not the commonly used fluoroquinolones in veterinary medicine. I think that until there is hard evidence that supports discontinuing using them in dogs, we should not make make suggestions to avoid their usage. Experience wise, since Baytril hit the market (15 - 20 years ago?) I have not seen any tendon injury associated with their usage, nor have I seen any tendon injury after their usage. Does anyone on this list know of any citation or reference addressing this human problem? By the way, I do not work for Bayer nor am I getting paid to say this (I wish I was though). Mark B. Parchman, DVM, DACVS, CVA <clip_image002.gif> 1245 SE 3rd St., Suite C3 Tel Bend, Oregon 97702 Fax tomlinson wrote: Hi Laurie It is something we always talked about when I used to treat horses, not sure in the small animal world but I avoid them in canine athletes Tomlinson BVSc MS PhD DACVS CCRP Certified Canine Rehabilitation Practitioner Twin Cities Animal Rehabilitation Clinic 12010 Riverwood Dr, Burnsville MN 55337 www.tcrehab.com <mime-attachment.jpeg> From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ] On Behalf Of Dr. Laurie McCauleySent: Friday, January 04, 2008 3:15 PMTo: VetRehab Subject: Tendon issues with Ab'sl? I saw this come across another list that I belong to and was wondering if anyone had heard anything about it? Group Sues FDA for Stronger Warnings Jan 3, 7:16 PM (ET) WASHINGTON (AP) - A consumer group sued the Food and Drug Administration Thursday, charging the agency is ignoring calls for stronger warnings that Cipro and similar antibiotics may cause serious tendon injuries. Labels of the fluoroquinolone family of antibiotics - drugs that include the popular Cipro and Levaquin - already warn about rupture of tendons and other tendon injuries, but at the bottom of a list of other side effects. The consumer group Public Citizen wants those warnings upgraded to the FDA's most severe type, a so-called black-box warning - and for patients to get pamphlets with every bottle that describe the risk. It argues that too few patients know they're supposed to quit using the drugs if they experience symptoms such as pain or inflammation, before the tendon actually ruptures. Public Citizen filed a petition seeking the stronger warning in August 2006. The state of Illinois had filed a similar petition the previous year. The FDA is violating its own statutes and putting patients at risk in taking so long to settle the issue, Public Citizen said in the suit filed in U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia. When Public Citizen first filed the petition, FDA's database showed 262 reports of tendon ruptures between November 1997 and December 2005, along with hundreds of other tendon problems in users of these antibiotics. Since then, the FDA has received an additional 74 reports of tendon ruptures, said Public Citizen's Dr. Sidney Wolfe. Only a fraction of drug side effects typically are reported to the agency, he noted. An FDA spokesman said the agency was evaluating the lawsuit and declined comment. Warren, NJ 07059 Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 Hi Laurie,Just a few comments regarding a possible survey.If the risk factor occurs in tendons, why would we ask about a ligament tear?These tissues are quite different. The tendon ruptures occur usually 2-3 cm above a poorly vascularized area- most commonly the achilles tendon, but has also occurred in the shoulder and hand.Also, while the agility clientele are great for keeping records and love to give information, I'm not sure this group is most representative of the ccl tears that we see. In our experience, we see much more "pets" with ccl tears than performance dogs.On a side note:If I recall, tendon tissue exposed to ciprofloxacin showed a significant decrease in fibroblastic proliferation and collagen synthesis. Tendon ruptures have been reported to have occurred as early as a few hours after the initial dose, or up to 6 months after drug therapy- this makes it very difficult to prove a direct correlation.Ria Acciani MPT Acciani PTAdvanced Canine Rehabilitation6 Kenquit RoadWarren, NJ 07059Hi All,If we come up with a survey, Clean run may be willing to put it up on their website. Clean run is “the” magazine company for agility people. This way we could reach a large percentage of canine athlete owners.I am not a researcher so I would need some help. What I was thinking was to ask people:Has your athlete torn his or her cruciate?Was your athlete on any medication just prior to or when this happened?If yes, was an antibiotic or NSAID? (this way people will not freak out thinking ab’s are going to cause cruciate damage?????)If your dog has torn their cruciate and was on or recently on an antibiotic, which antibiotic (list 10 or more)Maybe a similar question with NSAIDs Again, any thoughts/help or letting me know this would mot be a good thing to do would be appreciated J Laurie McCauley, DVMTOPS Veterinary RehabilitationGrayslake, ILdrmctops-vet-rehabwww.tops-vet-rehab.com From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ] On Behalf Of dogptSent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 8:14 PMTo: VetRehab Subject: Re: Tendon issues with Fluoroquinolones Mark,Quinolone induced tendon ruptures have been described in the literature dating back to the early and mid 80's. A medline search will reveal many cited references. These cases are rare, although I have treated one patient with an achilles tendon rupture and had a co-worker rupture both achilles tendons while on quinolones. I have not heard this mentioned occuring in the canine population, however, much of the phase I and II studies were performed on dogs. Ria Acciani MPT Acciani PTAdvanced Canine Rehabilitation6 Kenquit Road Happy New Year!I just have to stick my 2 cents in on this topic. I don't think that we can extrapolate from human medicine and condemn fluoroquinolones in dogs. Additionally, both of the drugs cited are not the commonly used fluoroquinolones in veterinary medicine. I think that until there is hard evidence that supports discontinuing using them in dogs, we should not make make suggestions to avoid their usage. Experience wise, since Baytril hit the market (15 - 20 years ago?) I have not seen any tendon injury associated with their usage, nor have I seen any tendon injury after their usage. Does anyone on this list know of any citation or reference addressing this human problem? By the way, I do not work for Bayer nor am I getting paid to say this (I wish I was though). Mark B. Parchman, DVM, DACVS, CVA<clip_image002.gif>1245 SE 3rd St., Suite C3 Tel Bend, Oregon 97702 Fax tomlinson wrote: Hi LaurieIt is something we always talked about when I used to treat horses, not sure in the small animal world but I avoid them in canine athletes Tomlinson BVSc MS PhD DACVS CCRPCertified Canine Rehabilitation PractitionerTwin Cities Animal Rehabilitation Clinic12010 Riverwood Dr, Burnsville MN 55337www.tcrehab.com<mime-attachment.jpeg>From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ] On Behalf Of Dr. Laurie McCauleySent: Friday, January 04, 2008 3:15 PMTo: VetRehab Subject: Tendon issues with Ab'sl?I saw this come across another list that I belong to and was wondering if anyone had heard anything about it?Group Sues FDA for Stronger WarningsJan 3, 7:16 PM (ET)WASHINGTON (AP) - A consumer group sued the Food and Drug Administration Thursday, charging the agency is ignoring calls for stronger warnings that Cipro and similar antibiotics may cause serious tendon injuries.Labels of the fluoroquinolone family of antibiotics - drugs that include the popular Cipro and Levaquin - already warn about rupture of tendons and other tendon injuries, but at the bottom of a list of other side effects.The consumer group Public Citizen wants those warnings upgraded to the FDA's most severe type, a so-called black-box warning - and for patients to get pamphlets with every bottle that describe the risk. It argues that too few patients know they're supposed to quit using the drugs if they experience symptoms such as pain or inflammation, before the tendon actually ruptures.Public Citizen filed a petition seeking the stronger warning in August 2006.The state of Illinois had filed a similar petition the previous year.The FDA is violating its own statutes and putting patients at risk in taking so long to settle the issue, Public Citizen said in the suit filed in U.S.District Court for the District of Columbia.When Public Citizen first filed the petition, FDA's database showed 262 reports of tendon ruptures between November 1997 and December 2005, along with hundreds of other tendon problems in users of these antibiotics. Since then, the FDA has received an additional 74 reports of tendon ruptures, said Public Citizen's Dr. Sidney Wolfe. Only a fraction of drug side effects typically are reported to the agency, he noted.An FDA spokesman said the agency was evaluating the lawsuit and declined comment. Warren, NJ 07059 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 Hi All, It sounds like the survey would not be a good idea. This is why having a group like this is so wonderful, we can throw out ideas and get many opinions before doing something that may or may not be valuable. As I said before research is not my area of expertise. Thank you to all who have added to this discussion, Laurie Laurie McCauley, DVM TOPS Veterinary Rehabilitation Grayslake, IL drmc@... www.tops-vet-rehab.com From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ] On Behalf Of dogpt Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 10:05 AM To: VetRehab Subject: Re: Tendon issues with Fluoroquinolones Hi Laurie, Just a few comments regarding a possible survey. If the risk factor occurs in tendons, why would we ask about a ligament tear? These tissues are quite different. The tendon ruptures occur usually 2-3 cm above a poorly vascularized area- most commonly the achilles tendon, but has also occurred in the shoulder and hand. Also, while the agility clientele are great for keeping records and love to give information, I'm not sure this group is most representative of the ccl tears that we see. In our experience, we see much more " pets " with ccl tears than performance dogs. On a side note: If I recall, tendon tissue exposed to ciprofloxacin showed a significant decrease in fibroblastic proliferation and collagen synthesis. Tendon ruptures have been reported to have occurred as early as a few hours after the initial dose, or up to 6 months after drug therapy- this makes it very difficult to prove a direct correlation. Ria Acciani MPT Acciani PT Advanced Canine Rehabilitation 6 Kenquit Road Warren, NJ 07059 Hi All, If we come up with a survey, Clean run may be willing to put it up on their website. Clean run is “the” magazine company for agility people. This way we could reach a large percentage of canine athlete owners. I am not a researcher so I would need some help. What I was thinking was to ask people: Has your athlete torn his or her cruciate? Was your athlete on any medication just prior to or when this happened? If yes, was an antibiotic or NSAID? (this way people will not freak out thinking ab’s are going to cause cruciate damage?????) If your dog has torn their cruciate and was on or recently on an antibiotic, which antibiotic (list 10 or more) Maybe a similar question with NSAIDs Again, any thoughts/help or letting me know this would mot be a good thing to do would be appreciated J Laurie McCauley, DVM TOPS Veterinary Rehabilitation Grayslake, IL drmctops-vet-rehab www.tops-vet-rehab.com From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ] On Behalf Of dogpt Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 8:14 PM To: VetRehab Subject: Re: Tendon issues with Fluoroquinolones Mark, Quinolone induced tendon ruptures have been described in the literature dating back to the early and mid 80's. A medline search will reveal many cited references. These cases are rare, although I have treated one patient with an achilles tendon rupture and had a co-worker rupture both achilles tendons while on quinolones. I have not heard this mentioned occuring in the canine population, however, much of the phase I and II studies were performed on dogs. Ria Acciani MPT Acciani PT Advanced Canine Rehabilitation 6 Kenquit Road On Jan 5, 2008, at 6:36 PM, Mark B. Parchman wrote: Happy New Year! I just have to stick my 2 cents in on this topic. I don't think that we can extrapolate from human medicine and condemn fluoroquinolones in dogs. Additionally, both of the drugs cited are not the commonly used fluoroquinolones in veterinary medicine. I think that until there is hard evidence that supports discontinuing using them in dogs, we should not make make suggestions to avoid their usage. Experience wise, since Baytril hit the market (15 - 20 years ago?) I have not seen any tendon injury associated with their usage, nor have I seen any tendon injury after their usage. Does anyone on this list know of any citation or reference addressing this human problem? By the way, I do not work for Bayer nor am I getting paid to say this (I wish I was though). Mark B. Parchman, DVM, DACVS, CVA <clip_image002.gif> 1245 SE 3rd St., Suite C3 Tel Bend, Oregon 97702 Fax tomlinson wrote: Hi Laurie It is something we always talked about when I used to treat horses, not sure in the small animal world but I avoid them in canine athletes Tomlinson BVSc MS PhD DACVS CCRP Certified Canine Rehabilitation Practitioner Twin Cities Animal Rehabilitation Clinic 12010 Riverwood Dr, Burnsville MN 55337 www.tcrehab.com <mime-attachment.jpeg> From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ] On Behalf Of Dr. Laurie McCauley Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 3:15 PM To: VetRehab Subject: Tendon issues with Ab'sl? I saw this come across another list that I belong to and was wondering if anyone had heard anything about it? Group Sues FDA for Stronger Warnings Jan 3, 7:16 PM (ET) WASHINGTON (AP) - A consumer group sued the Food and Drug Administration Thursday, charging the agency is ignoring calls for stronger warnings that Cipro and similar antibiotics may cause serious tendon injuries. Labels of the fluoroquinolone family of antibiotics - drugs that include the popular Cipro and Levaquin - already warn about rupture of tendons and other tendon injuries, but at the bottom of a list of other side effects. The consumer group Public Citizen wants those warnings upgraded to the FDA's most severe type, a so-called black-box warning - and for patients to get pamphlets with every bottle that describe the risk. It argues that too few patients know they're supposed to quit using the drugs if they experience symptoms such as pain or inflammation, before the tendon actually ruptures. Public Citizen filed a petition seeking the stronger warning in August 2006. The state of Illinois had filed a similar petition the previous year. The FDA is violating its own statutes and putting patients at risk in taking so long to settle the issue, Public Citizen said in the suit filed in U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia. When Public Citizen first filed the petition, FDA's database showed 262 reports of tendon ruptures between November 1997 and December 2005, along with hundreds of other tendon problems in users of these antibiotics. Since then, the FDA has received an additional 74 reports of tendon ruptures, said Public Citizen's Dr. Sidney Wolfe. Only a fraction of drug side effects typically are reported to the agency, he noted. An FDA spokesman said the agency was evaluating the lawsuit and declined comment. Warren, NJ 07059 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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