farm visit/ soy in chicken feed

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:55:12 -0600 Kroyer

<skroyer@...> writes:

>> Do you all agree that feeding with organic grains is an important

thing?

I think it's quite important from an environmental standpoint. It's also

extremely important from the standpoint of the wholesomeness of the meat,

IMO, but I believe that if they truly are pasturing these animals the

amount

of grain supplemental food that they are being given is likely low enough

that they should still be far healthier than conventionally farmed

animals.

I also think that they would probably be healthier than non-pastured

organic

animals.

Me: Great point! I know that here in the Northwest " organic " has become

an almost sacred state, making anything labeled with that title okay to

eat. People always look at me funny whe I tell them I would eat a

properly pastured animal that wasn't organic as opposed to an organic

animal that wasn't pastured. This link tries to address that issue.

http://www.eatwild.com/beyond%20organic.htm

That said, my primary reason for de-emphasizing chicken and pork is that

I

don't like to heavily cook meats, and with respect for Bianca, Mark, and

others, I'm still just not quite comfortable with eating much of anything

raw other than beef, dairy, ocean fish, very fresh oysters and maybe

eggs.

Me: If you eat a diet composed of the foods raw that you mentioned (beef,

dairy, fish, oysters, and eggs)you will be a most blessed man indeed. And

chicken and pork never have to figure in the mix :-)

[Guest guest]

Carolyn-

>Do you all agree that feeding with organic grains is an important thing?

I'd rather eat meat from livestock that hadn't been fed any grains at all,

but if I'm stuck with some grains, yes, organic is very

important. Pesticides and other pollutants concentrate as they move up the

food chain, so organic makes a huge difference.

>So the chickens are always outside in the pasture (there is a portable

>rain/sleep shelter in the middle of the fenced area for them, and that is

>where their grain is). They were pecking away happily. And their egg

>yolks were *super* orange!

Again, I think it's a relative thing. If these eggs are an improvement

over your alternatives, by all means, eat them! It sounds like they're at

least getting some insects, and that's a very, very big deal.

That said, if you can persuade them to cut the soy out of their feed, by

all means, do so! There's an abundance of material available, articles

from the WAP site, from Soy Online Services, and elsewhere. If you

approach them right, I'm sure the farmers would be willing to at least

consider the material.

>Oh, another question (maybe this has come up before): do most of you eat

>pork, or not? Is it as healthy as beef etc?

I don't eat much pork because it's a lot harder to find pigs that are fed

right. I want as little soy as possible, even indirectly, and even farms

that feed their cows nothing other than pasture and grass silage will often

give their pigs lots of soy. And pigs do tend to get used as universal

garbage disposals. Unfortunately I don't know enough about what pigs are

really supposed to eat, but I'm pretty sure I read that they're not able to

handle phytic acid any better than people are, so that lets out all grains

and legumes, since I doubt pigs ever learned to soak and sprout their foods

before eating them. <g>

So, for me, pork is an occasional treat for some variety. I just got a bit

of pork from a biodynamic farm here in NY state, in fact, but I'm not going

to make a practice of it.

-

[Guest guest]

>>I don't like the feed they

use as much as what Gold Circle Farms uses, though -- but even GC serves their

chickens " all vegetarian " crap, including, I believe, soy. I use their eggs raw

all the time without incident, but I'd kill for eggs from a real biodynamic farm

that lets the chickens forage for bugs out on pasture>>

This reminds me. I know that someone here recently requested information

(articles) about using soy in chicken feed. Did anyone ever find an article?

Maybe I missed it... I checked out the soy information site that someone posted,

but I couldn't find any information about using soy in chicken feed.

The reason I ask: I recently visited a local farm (yay! fun!) that is only

twenty minutes from my house(here in Oregon). The farm is Abundant Life Farm

(they are listed on www.eatwild.com). I was very impressed, but I have a few

questions to ask all of you. They have only been in operation two years, and

they got started after reading " You Can Farm " by Salatin. I haven't read

this book, but according to their pamphlet he was a " pioneer in pastured

poultry " . I am sure many of you have read this book?

In addition to chickens (more on that later), they raise:

*pastured Guernsey cows (just two right now) for milk (I found my source for raw

milk!... 3.00 a gallon)

* " salad bar beef " (in reference to the variety of grasses they eat). They are

breeding Piedmontese and Red Angus cows for beef.

* " salad bar lamb "

* Pigs

* Turkeys

They do not feed grain to the lambs, or cattle. (They also do not use any

pesticides, herbicides or chemical fertilizers on their pastures.) However, and

I am gathering that this is normal, they feed grain to the chickens and pigs.

They make a custom mix, but a) the grains aren't organically grown and they

use soy in the mix. She said they would switch to organic grains if customers

requested it enough, and would pay a higher price (they charge 2.25 a lb as it

is). Do you all agree that feeding with organic grains is an important thing?

Isn't it true that the chemicals used on the grains get, um, concentrated? in

the flesh/fat of the animal? Would you all happily eat livers (or, as I heard,

is it the kidneys that store the evil chemicals?) from these chickens?

As far as soy: I mentioned to her that some people thought this wasn't a good

idea, but I only said this in a gentle way, I didn't want to be too critical on

my first visit. Besides, we were standing right next to this cool set up they

have for the chickens: to protect from predators, they have a portable electric

fence around the chickens and they move it every day or two ( I think every

three days for the egg laying chickens, every day for the meat chickens). So

the chickens are always outside in the pasture (there is a portable rain/sleep

shelter in the middle of the fenced area for them, and that is where their grain

is). They were pecking away happily. And their egg yolks were *super* orange!

Anyway, I would be willing to send them an article that discusses issues of soy

in chicken feed if anyone has one.

One more question: the cream on the top of the raw milk wasn't as " heavy " as

store bought, and it wouldn't whip into whip cream very well. Is this due to

the type of cow it is? How do they make " heavy whipping cream " anyway?

Oh, another question (maybe this has come up before): do most of you eat pork,

or not? Is it as healthy as beef etc?

Thanks ahead of time,

Carolyn

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> That said, if you can persuade them to cut the soy

> out of their feed, by all means, do so! There's an

> abundance of material available, articles from the

> WAP site, from Soy Online Services, and elsewhere.

> If you approach them right, I'm sure the farmers

> would be willing to at least consider the material.

There's an abundance of material on those sites about soy in human food and

ruminant food, but if there's also an abundance of information about its use

in chicken and pig feed, I've missed it. I wouldn't hand someone materials

about nutrition in people and expect them to believe that it also applies to

their livestock...regardless of whether it does or not. If there's good

evidence that soy should be avoided for chickens, it needs to be collected

and written specifically about chickens. Same thing goes for pigs.

The bottom line in quality protein for poultry, though, from what I've read

is vermiculture! Grow earthworms in a composting arrangement to produce a

high quality organic matter soil amendment for your gardens and/or fields

and you also get one of the most ideal sources of protein for your chickens.

If a farm is trying to do things fairly sustainably and at the lowest cost

possible, don't recommend that they stop using soy. That's just a burden to

them. Instead, recommend that they start using something else like worms or

fish meal. Worms give them the advantage of being cheap, accelerating the

composting process, and supplying fertilizer. Fish meal gives them the

advantage of high quality protein and a favorable lipid profile.

If you want info on vermiculture for chicken feed, check out this link:

http://www.lionsgrip.com/worms.html

[Guest guest]

>I wouldn't hand someone materials

>about nutrition in people and expect them to believe that it also applies to

>their livestock...regardless of whether it does or not.

Hmm, you have a point. I'm not sure whether I read anything about the

effects on humans on feeding soy to meat animals on those sites. However,

I am pretty sure that Ray Peat has written at least one article on the

subject, saying that an animal will tend to pass on the lipids of what it

eats to those who eat it. I don't think I've read anything definitive on

the subject of isoflavones being passed on, though. So my attitude is

definitely better safe than sorry -- I don't want soy anywhere in my food

chain.

>If a farm is trying to do things fairly sustainably and at the lowest cost

>possible, don't recommend that they stop using soy. That's just a burden to

>them. Instead, recommend that they start using something else like worms or

>fish meal. Worms give them the advantage of being cheap, accelerating the

>composting process, and supplying fertilizer. Fish meal gives them the

>advantage of high quality protein and a favorable lipid profile.

Another good point. It's always better to recommend something useful when

possible.

I wonder about fish meal, though. Does it come from farmed fish? Are the

fish lipids oxidized in the preparation of the meal? I'd rather stick to

worms -- chickens are supposed to eat worms, and fresh, healthy worms are

very good for them (and, indirectly, us).

-

[Guest guest]

> >

> >

> > If you approach them right, I'm sure the farmers

> > would be willing to at least consider the material.

> >>>>>>>>>>>>Probably only farmers who are marketing to the

people.Dennis

>

> I wouldn't hand someone

materials

> about nutrition in people and expect them to believe that it also

applies to

> their livestock...regardless of whether it does or not. If there's

good

> evidence that soy should be avoided for chickens, it needs to be

collected

> and written specifically about chickens. Same thing goes for pigs.

>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I think so too. Same goes for cows, goats donkeys

etc.Dennis

>

>

>

Instead, recommend that they start using something else like

worms or

> fish meal.

>>>>Is cereal grain a problem? If so, what.

the

> advantage of high quality protein and a favorable lipid profile.

>

> >>>>>>>>>Do cereal grains have the wrong lipid profile? Some

classify cereals as a grass, I think. Dennis

>>>>>>>>>>I got it trimmed now how do I move the lines up? These

replies get confusing and I'm Sure there's a best way to do it but

until I become computer literate this is my best. Dennis

>

>

>