Re: Medical Opinions vs Facts

October 12, 2011

The package insert also mentions reports of ”tumors in laboratory animals. " This is outdated and misleading information. Spironolactone has been prescribed for over 50 years, with many people taking it daily for years at a time, yet there is no evidence that it has caused a single tumor in a human, even after many years of continuous treatment. It is our opinion that any such risk is negligible. You must not get pregnant while taking this drug or use it with the birth control pill Yasmin. We recommend 2 forms of birth control if one is sexually active. http://www.southlakedermatology.com/files/Spironolactone_Info.pdf |IMPORTANT WARNING:|||Spironolactone has caused tumors in laboratory animals. Talk to your doctor|about the risks and benefits of using this medication for your condition.|||Why is this medication prescribed?||Source: MedLine Plus|

October 12, 2011

If any one watched the Video I linked to in one of my posting about risk of

Xrays then you see that CT scans carry a big risk if cancer. doesn't seen to

stop us from getting them.

>

> The package insert also mentions reports of " tumors in laboratory animals. "

> This is outdated and misleading information. Spironolactone has been

> prescribed for over 50 years, with many people taking it daily for years at

> a time, yet there is no evidence that it has caused a single tumor in a

> human, even after many years of continuous treatment. It is our opinion that

> any such risk is negligible. You must not get pregnant while taking this

> drug or use it with the birth control pill Yasmin. We recommend 2 forms of

> birth control if one is sexually active.

>

> http://www.southlakedermatology.com/files/Spironolactone_Info.pdf

>

> |IMPORTANT WARNING:

>

> |

>

> |

>

> |Spironolactone has caused tumors in laboratory animals. Talk to your doctor

>

> |about the risks and benefits of using this medication for your condition.

>

> |

>

> |

>

> |Why is this medication prescribed?

>

> |

>

> |Source: MedLine Plus

>

> |

>

October 12, 2011

Why do they use lab animals for testing? When I see a warning in MedLine Plus I

presume there is a reason that I need to " discuss with my doctor " . In fact, I

just added that to my agenda to discuss w/PCP next week. I do not see the same

warning fo Eplerenone, does that make it a better choice?

My personal guess is that they suspect tumors may MAY transfer over to humans

but can't prove it, yet! They went thru the same type of process a few years

ago with something called " Agent Orange " ! They are paying for that decision but

more importantly many of us (the lab rats) are paying dearly! (At least with

Spiro there is an alert and I can choose to participate or not as I see fit!)

- 65 yo super ob. male - 12mm X 13mm rt. a.adnoma with previous rt. flank

pain. Treating with Meds. And DASH. . Current BP(last week ave): 125/73

Other Issues/Opportunities: OSA w Bi-Pap settings 13/19, DM2, and PTSD.

Meds: Duloxetine hcl 80 MG, Mirtazapine 7.5 MG, Metoprolol Tartrate 200 MG,

81mg asprin, Metformin 2000MG and Spironolactone 50 MG.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > I'm going to take exception to your " whole lot of

opinions "

> > > > > > > > > > > comment. Many times I reference professional articles so

the only

> > > > > > > > > > > opinion I give is that I think this article may have value

- you

> > > > > > > > > > > judge the quality if you choose to review it! I try to be

careful

> > > > > > > > > > > not to practice med. w/o a license!

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> >

>

October 12, 2011

Who is " Southlake Dermatology " and why should I take their opinion ovwr the FDA?

How was the tumor of every patient on Spironlactone analized to determine

origin. (IMUO If the drug makers could discount that statement they would!)

- 65 yo super ob. male - 12mm X 13mm rt. a.adnoma with previous rt. flank

pain. Treating with Meds. And DASH. . Current BP(last week ave): 125/73

Other Issues/Opportunities: OSA w Bi-Pap settings 13/19, DM2, and PTSD.

Meds: Duloxetine hcl 80 MG, Mirtazapine 7.5 MG, Metoprolol Tartrate 200 MG,

81mg asprin, Metformin 2000MG and Spironolactone 50 MG.

>

> The package insert also mentions reports of " tumors in laboratory animals. "

> This is outdated and misleading information. Spironolactone has been

> prescribed for over 50 years, with many people taking it daily for years at

> a time, yet there is no evidence that it has caused a single tumor in a

> human, even after many years of continuous treatment. It is our opinion that

> any such risk is negligible. You must not get pregnant while taking this

> drug or use it with the birth control pill Yasmin. We recommend 2 forms of

> birth control if one is sexually active.

>

> http://www.southlakedermatology.com/files/Spironolactone_Info.pdf

>

> |IMPORTANT WARNING:

>

> |

>

> |

>

> |Spironolactone has caused tumors in laboratory animals. Talk to your doctor

>

> |about the risks and benefits of using this medication for your condition.

>

> |

>

> |

>

> |Why is this medication prescribed?

>

> |

>

> |Source: MedLine Plus

>

> |

>

October 12, 2011

Spiro has been around for decades and is used for a variety of disorders, including PA, CHF, acne, cirrhoisis of the liver, nephrotic syndrome, essential hypertension, hyokalemia, and others. It has had time to be well tested, much more so than Inspra. The FDA has approved it for "Long-term maintenance therapy for patients with discrete aldosterone-producing adrenal adenomas who are judged to be poor operative candidates or who decline surgery." There is no evidence that it causes tumors in humans.

To: hyperaldosteronism Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 3:12 PMSubject: Re: Medical Opinions vs FactsWho is "Southlake Dermatology" and why should I take their opinion ovwr the FDA? How was the tumor of every patient on Spironlactone analized to determine origin. (IMUO If the drug makers could discount that statement they

would!) - 65 yo super ob. male - 12mm X 13mm rt. a.adnoma with previous rt. flank pain. Treating with Meds. And DASH. . Current BP(last week ave): 125/73Other Issues/Opportunities: OSA w Bi-Pap settings 13/19, DM2, and PTSD.Meds: Duloxetine hcl 80 MG, Mirtazapine 7.5 MG, Metoprolol Tartrate 200 MG, 81mg asprin, Metformin 2000MG and Spironolactone 50 MG. >> > > The package insert also mentions reports of "tumors in laboratory animals."> This is outdated and misleading information. Spironolactone has been> prescribed for over 50 years, with many people taking it daily for years at> a time, yet there is no evidence that it has caused a

single tumor in a> human, even after many years of continuous treatment. It is our opinion that> any such risk is negligible. You must not get pregnant while taking this> drug or use it with the birth control pill Yasmin. We recommend 2 forms of> birth control if one is sexually active.> > > > http://www.southlakedermatology.com/files/Spironolactone_Info.pdf> > > > > > |IMPORTANT WARNING:> > |> > |> > |Spironolactone has caused tumors in laboratory animals. Talk to your doctor> > |about the risks and benefits of using this medication for your condition.> > |> > |> > |Why is this medication prescribed?> > |> > |Source:

MedLine Plus> > |>------------------------------------

October 12, 2011

It prevents disability and death from HTN AND CHF. To mention A few bread the RALES trial for how it prevents death better than standard therapy. So unlee you have a white fur coat I would not worry much about it. ESP IF you get xrays or leave in a smoggy area or eat a high salt diet. There are studies in rats with tumors that show that low salt diet slows tumor growth. Tiped sad Send form miiPhone ;-)May your pressure be low!CE Grim MDSpecializing in DifficultHypertension

IMPORTANT WARNING:

Spironolactone has caused tumors in laboratory animals. Talk to your doctor about the risks and benefits of using this medication for your condition.

Why is this medication prescribed?

Source: MedLine Plus

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I'm going to take exception to your "whole lot of opinions"

> > > > > > > > > > comment. Many times I reference professional articles so the only

> > > > > > > > > > opinion I give is that I think this article may have value - you

> > > > > > > > > > judge the quality if you choose to review it! I try to be careful

> > > > > > > > > > not to practice med. w/o a license!

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

>

October 12, 2011

And why would one use this if it is not needed? Of course if you need it and DASH well you may be able to reduce your Spiro dose by 50 fold. See Bravo article in our files and mentioned in our intro Tiped sad Send form miiPhone ;-)May your pressure be low!CE Grim MDSpecializing in DifficultHypertension

WARNING Spironolactone Tablets have been shown to be a tumorigen in chronic toxicity studies in rats (see Precautions). Spironolactone Tablets should be used only in those conditions described under Indications and Usage. Unnecessary use of this drug should be avoided.

I'm reading this as it can cause tumors in rats when given over a long period of time in doses so large that it causes toxicity. I don't see where it says anything about causing tumors in humans when given at the recommended dose.

To: hyperaldosteronism Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 2:08 PMSubject: Re: Medical Opinions vs FactsIMPORTANT WARNING: Spironolactone has caused tumors in laboratory animals. Talk to your doctor about the risks and benefits of using this medication for your condition.Why is this medication prescribed?Source: MedLine

Plus> > > > > > >> > > > > > > I find both opinions, and facts to be of value.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > For example - the research articles will probably never, ever mention that spiro's estrogenic properties can exacerbate menstrual irregularities, or can cause gynecomastia in women. They will also never mention that the estrogenic properties may cause weight gain (plenty of anecdotal evidence of that if you look hard enough), yet in the three weeks I was on it, my weight (which under normal circumstances only fluctuates by a pound either way) went up five pounds. So my *opinion* that this drug's side effects outweigh it's benefits *may* be of value to some newbie who comes here down the line.> > > > > >

> > > > > > > > However. My HTN doctor's *opinion* that I could have skipped AVS and gone straight to surgery, even though I'm a bit past 40, was not supported by any of the "facts" in the research articles. So I was able to choose to ignore his opinion, and follow the guidance I got via the *facts* presented in research articles.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In

October 12, 2011

And why would someone take 7 BP Meds that weren't needed or working? Answer,

just trying to be compliant! (Won't happen again!)

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I find both opinions, and facts to be of value.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > For example - the research articles will probably never, ever

mention that spiro's estrogenic properties can exacerbate menstrual

irregularities, or can cause gynecomastia in women. They will also never mention

that the estrogenic properties may cause weight gain (plenty of anecdotal

evidence of that if you look hard enough), yet in the three weeks I was on it,

my weight (which under normal circumstances only fluctuates by a pound either

way) went up five pounds. So my *opinion* that this drug's side effects outweigh

it's benefits *may* be of value to some newbie who comes here down the line.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > However. My HTN doctor's *opinion* that I could have skipped

AVS and gone straight to surgery, even though I'm a bit past 40, was not

supported by any of the " facts " in the research articles. So I was able to

choose to ignore his opinion, and follow the guidance I got via the *facts*

presented in research articles.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > --- In

>

October 12, 2011

I did that, too. Well, 6, at one point. And no, it will not happen again

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I find both opinions, and facts to be of value.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > For example - the research articles will probably never,

ever mention that spiro's estrogenic properties can exacerbate menstrual

irregularities, or can cause gynecomastia in women. They will also never mention

that the estrogenic properties may cause weight gain (plenty of anecdotal

evidence of that if you look hard enough), yet in the three weeks I was on it,

my weight (which under normal circumstances only fluctuates by a pound either

way) went up five pounds. So my *opinion* that this drug's side effects outweigh

it's benefits *may* be of value to some newbie who comes here down the line.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > However. My HTN doctor's *opinion* that I could have skipped

AVS and gone straight to surgery, even though I'm a bit past 40, was not

supported by any of the " facts " in the research articles. So I was able to

choose to ignore his opinion, and follow the guidance I got via the *facts*

presented in research articles.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > --- In

> >

>

October 12, 2011

To answer your questions, beard is turning white, no " fur " on rest of body

assumed as a result of Spirolactone, no smog in Vermont (our largest city is

~38,000 and a " traffic jam " is 3 cars at a stop sign at the same time, eat low

salt and all x-rays are recommended by doctors (following best practice

guideline I presume)!

My question should have been, " Why isn't the recommended med of choice

Eplerenone for PA? I see no reference to tumors and as far as I know I didn't

need any female hormones, I see boobs and wonder what else might be happening! "

I also notice some of the ladies here thought there were side effects they would

just as soon do without, I presume!

Is it still " best practice " to RX a medicine that has been reported to have

undesirable side effects up to 50% of the time and when it does change to the

drug that should have been RXed in the first place? It would seem to me there

is an unecessary step there and if you skipped the potential side effects you

might have more people willing to try thr meds/dash option!

- 65 yo super ob. male - 12mm X 13mm rt. a.adnoma with previous rt. flank

pain. Treating with Meds. And DASH. . Current BP(last week ave): 125/73

Other Issues/Opportunities: OSA w Bi-Pap settings 13/19, DM2, and PTSD.

Meds: Duloxetine hcl 80 MG, Mirtazapine 7.5 MG, Metoprolol Tartrate 200 MG,

81mg asprin, Metformin 2000MG and Spironolactone 50 MG.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm going to take exception to your " whole lot of

opinions "

> > > > > > > > > > > > comment. Many times I reference professional articles so

the only

> > > > > > > > > > > > opinion I give is that I think this article may have

value - you

> > > > > > > > > > > > judge the quality if you choose to review it! I try to

be careful

> > > > > > > > > > > > not to practice med. w/o a license!

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > >

> >

>

October 12, 2011

" debilitating gynecomastia " ?

Are you kidding me?

After being pear-shaped my whole life this is the one side effect I am looking

forward to!

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > There has been some research posted about the failure

of

> > > > > > > > > > surgery many years

> > > > > > > > > > > > > later. If you have one adenoma, you could very well

develop

> > > > > > > > > > another on the

> > > > > > > > > > > > > other adrenal. That's why Dr. Grim recommends DASH,

meds first

> > > > > > > > > > and surgery

> > > > > > > > > > > > > last. I don't want opinions; I want facts supported by

> > > > > > > > > > research, or at

> > > > > > > > > > > > > least by expert opinion.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Val

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > From: hyperaldosteronism

> > > > > > > > > > > > > [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf

Of

> > > > > > > > > > hesterfenwick

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe it is about how to find the discussions because

> > > > > > > > > > searching thtough old

> > > > > > > > > > > > > discussions is nigh-on impossible by thread title. But

I never

> > > > > > > > > > had any

> > > > > > > > > > > > > response to my 'pros and cons' question beyond being

told DASH

> > > > > > > > > > and meds was

> > > > > > > > > > > > > the way to go - despite pressing and pressing for the

> > > > > > > > > > equivalent analysis on

> > > > > > > > > > > > > surgery. And in the year since then I've seen very

little

> > > > > > > > > > support for

> > > > > > > > > > > > > surgery. Now in my case (under 40, clear adenoma, BP

> > > > > > > > > > controlled my minimal

> > > > > > > > > > > > > meds, PA short term) it was a no-brainer according to

all the

> > > > > > > > > > other research

> > > > > > > > > > > > > I could lay my hands on.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > When I got no response on here to surgery questions, I

did

> > > > > > > > > > trawl through Pub

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Med and every other piece of research I could find -

but it

> > > > > > > > > > would have been

> > > > > > > > > > > > > lovely to have been able to speed that up by getting

some

> > > > > > > > > > facts on here to

> > > > > > > > > > > > > begin with. And I'm guessing that's what many others

do - they

> > > > > > > > > > come on here

> > > > > > > > > > > > > as a first port of call but then move on to doing

their own

> > > > > > > > > > fundamental

> > > > > > > > > > > > > research or go with their medical teams advice and

never come

> > > > > > > > > > back.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > It's great, fantastic, that so many of you are fervent

> > > > > > > > > > supporters of DASH

> > > > > > > > > > > > > and meds. Really - I absolutely mean that. But that

doesn't

> > > > > > > > > > mean there isn't

> > > > > > > > > > > > > ever a case for surgery. Now I'll do my best to be

equally

> > > > > > > > > > fervent in

> > > > > > > > > > > > > support of surgery when I think somebody has a case

for it -

> > > > > > > > > > that's why I'm

> > > > > > > > > > > > > still here. Because that's how it's all going to work,

imho.

> > > > > > > > > > But I'm not a

> > > > > > > > > > > > > medic and I won't be up to date with the latest

research so

> > > > > > > > > > I'll never carry

> > > > > > > > > > > > > as much weight as many of you. So hopefully there will

be

> > > > > > > > > > others around

> > > > > > > > > > > > > giving an alternative view-point too. And if that

isn't

> > > > > > > > > > welcome then there

> > > > > > > > > > > > > should be something in the intro about this being a

forum for

> > > > > > > > > > supporting

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Conn's sufferers through diet and meds rather than it

being a

> > > > > > > > > > general PA

> > > > > > > > > > > > > support site.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > H

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

October 12, 2011

It is a matter of finding the combo that works. I stress that our goal is to get BP (home). I can tell what your BP is but I cannot tell how u feel. Only u can tell me that Tiped sad Send form miiPhone ;-)May your pressure be low!CE Grim MDSpecializing in DifficultHypertension

I did that, too. Well, 6, at one point. And no, it will not happen again

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I find both opinions, and facts to be of value.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > For example - the research articles will probably never, ever mention that spiro's estrogenic properties can exacerbate menstrual irregularities, or can cause gynecomastia in women. They will also never mention that the estrogenic properties may cause weight gain (plenty of anecdotal evidence of that if you look hard enough), yet in the three weeks I was on it, my weight (which under normal circumstances only fluctuates by a pound either way) went up five pounds. So my *opinion* that this drug's side effects outweigh it's benefits *may* be of value to some newbie who comes here down the line.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > However. My HTN doctor's *opinion* that I could have skipped AVS and gone straight to surgery, even though I'm a bit past 40, was not supported by any of the "facts" in the research articles. So I was able to choose to ignore his opinion, and follow the guidance I got via the *facts* presented in research articles.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > --- In

> >

>

October 12, 2011

Few Drs have experience with eplere in HTN DEAPITE THE FACT that it has been approved for HTN almost from the start. I have expressed my concern about the marketing error big Pharm made by not pushing eplere for most HTN. Suspect they were concerned about hyper K. Never got a good answer n cost is the major impediment nTiped sad Send form miiPhone ;-)May your pressure be low!CE Grim MDSpecializing in DifficultHypertension

To answer your questions, beard is turning white, no "fur" on rest of body assumed as a result of Spirolactone, no smog in Vermont (our largest city is ~38,000 and a "traffic jam" is 3 cars at a stop sign at the same time, eat low salt and all x-rays are recommended by doctors (following best practice guideline I presume)!

My question should have been, "Why isn't the recommended med of choice Eplerenone for PA? I see no reference to tumors and as far as I know I didn't need any female hormones, I see boobs and wonder what else might be happening!" I also notice some of the ladies here thought there were side effects they would just as soon do without, I presume!

Is it still "best practice" to RX a medicine that has been reported to have undesirable side effects up to 50% of the time and when it does change to the drug that should have been RXed in the first place? It would seem to me there is an unecessary step there and if you skipped the potential side effects you might have more people willing to try thr meds/dash option!

- 65 yo super ob. male - 12mm X 13mm rt. a.adnoma with previous rt. flank pain. Treating with Meds. And DASH. . Current BP(last week ave): 125/73

Other Issues/Opportunities: OSA w Bi-Pap settings 13/19, DM2, and PTSD.

Meds: Duloxetine hcl 80 MG, Mirtazapine 7.5 MG, Metoprolol Tartrate 200 MG, 81mg asprin, Metformin 2000MG and Spironolactone 50 MG.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm going to take exception to your "whole lot of opinions"

> > > > > > > > > > > > comment. Many times I reference professional articles so the only

> > > > > > > > > > > > opinion I give is that I think this article may have value - you

> > > > > > > > > > > > judge the quality if you choose to review it! I try to be careful

> > > > > > > > > > > > not to practice med. w/o a license!

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > >

> >

>

October 12, 2011

Could but not likely IMHO.Tiped sad Send form miiPhone ;-)May your pressure be low!CE Grim MDSpecializing in DifficultHypertension

The issue I see here is that if spiro is tumorigenic, and one with a tumor is taking it, then this could explain why some people who have taken spiro long term have posted here that their symptoms have come back or that they need more spiro.

In other words, the spiro accelerates tumor growth, the tumor gets larger, this triggers more aldo and necessitates more spiro.

Vicious cycle, maybe? I know that Dr Grim always blames it on "out-salting spiro" but perhaps it's more complex than that.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > There has been some research posted about the failure of

> > > > > > > > > surgery many years

> > > > > > > > > > > > later. If you have one adenoma, you could very well develop

> > > > > > > > > another on the

> > > > > > > > > > > > other adrenal. That's why Dr. Grim recommends DASH, meds first

> > > > > > > > > and surgery

> > > > > > > > > > > > last. I don't want opinions; I want facts supported by

> > > > > > > > > research, or at

> > > > > > > > > > > > least by expert opinion.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Val

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > From: hyperaldosteronism

> > > > > > > > > > > > [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of

> > > > > > > > > hesterfenwick

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe it is about how to find the discussions because

> > > > > > > > > searching thtough old

> > > > > > > > > > > > discussions is nigh-on impossible by thread title. But I never

> > > > > > > > > had any

> > > > > > > > > > > > response to my 'pros and cons' question beyond being told DASH

> > > > > > > > > and meds was

> > > > > > > > > > > > the way to go - despite pressing and pressing for the

> > > > > > > > > equivalent analysis on

> > > > > > > > > > > > surgery. And in the year since then I've seen very little

> > > > > > > > > support for

> > > > > > > > > > > > surgery. Now in my case (under 40, clear adenoma, BP

> > > > > > > > > controlled my minimal

> > > > > > > > > > > > meds, PA short term) it was a no-brainer according to all the

> > > > > > > > > other research

> > > > > > > > > > > > I could lay my hands on.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > When I got no response on here to surgery questions, I did

> > > > > > > > > trawl through Pub

> > > > > > > > > > > > Med and every other piece of research I could find - but it

> > > > > > > > > would have been

> > > > > > > > > > > > lovely to have been able to speed that up by getting some

> > > > > > > > > facts on here to

> > > > > > > > > > > > begin with. And I'm guessing that's what many others do - they

> > > > > > > > > come on here

> > > > > > > > > > > > as a first port of call but then move on to doing their own

> > > > > > > > > fundamental

> > > > > > > > > > > > research or go with their medical teams advice and never come

> > > > > > > > > back.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > It's great, fantastic, that so many of you are fervent

> > > > > > > > > supporters of DASH

> > > > > > > > > > > > and meds. Really - I absolutely mean that. But that doesn't

> > > > > > > > > mean there isn't

> > > > > > > > > > > > ever a case for surgery. Now I'll do my best to be equally

> > > > > > > > > fervent in

> > > > > > > > > > > > support of surgery when I think somebody has a case for it -

> > > > > > > > > that's why I'm

> > > > > > > > > > > > still here. Because that's how it's all going to work, imho.

> > > > > > > > > But I'm not a

> > > > > > > > > > > > medic and I won't be up to date with the latest research so

> > > > > > > > > I'll never carry

> > > > > > > > > > > > as much weight as many of you. So hopefully there will be

> > > > > > > > > others around

> > > > > > > > > > > > giving an alternative view-point too. And if that isn't

> > > > > > > > > welcome then there

> > > > > > > > > > > > should be something in the intro about this being a forum for

> > > > > > > > > supporting

> > > > > > > > > > > > Conn's sufferers through diet and meds rather than it being a

> > > > > > > > > general PA

> > > > > > > > > > > > support site.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > H

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

October 12, 2011

Do you mean a high salt diet? May also be tumorigenic ESP gastric cancer.Tiped sad Send form miiPhone ;-)May your pressure be low!CE Grim MDSpecializing in DifficultHypertension

Also have to question the wisdom of lifetime drug therapy with a "tumorigenic" substance in those of us who have tumors.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > There has been some research posted about the failure of

> > > > > > > > > > surgery many years

> > > > > > > > > > > > > later. If you have one adenoma, you could very well develop

> > > > > > > > > > another on the

> > > > > > > > > > > > > other adrenal. That's why Dr. Grim recommends DASH, meds first

> > > > > > > > > > and surgery

> > > > > > > > > > > > > last. I don't want opinions; I want facts supported by

> > > > > > > > > > research, or at

> > > > > > > > > > > > > least by expert opinion.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Val

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > From: hyperaldosteronism

> > > > > > > > > > > > > [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of

> > > > > > > > > > hesterfenwick

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe it is about how to find the discussions because

> > > > > > > > > > searching thtough old

> > > > > > > > > > > > > discussions is nigh-on impossible by thread title. But I never

> > > > > > > > > > had any

> > > > > > > > > > > > > response to my 'pros and cons' question beyond being told DASH

> > > > > > > > > > and meds was

> > > > > > > > > > > > > the way to go - despite pressing and pressing for the

> > > > > > > > > > equivalent analysis on

> > > > > > > > > > > > > surgery. And in the year since then I've seen very little

> > > > > > > > > > support for

> > > > > > > > > > > > > surgery. Now in my case (under 40, clear adenoma, BP

> > > > > > > > > > controlled my minimal

> > > > > > > > > > > > > meds, PA short term) it was a no-brainer according to all the

> > > > > > > > > > other research

> > > > > > > > > > > > > I could lay my hands on.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > When I got no response on here to surgery questions, I did

> > > > > > > > > > trawl through Pub

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Med and every other piece of research I could find - but it

> > > > > > > > > > would have been

> > > > > > > > > > > > > lovely to have been able to speed that up by getting some

> > > > > > > > > > facts on here to

> > > > > > > > > > > > > begin with. And I'm guessing that's what many others do - they

> > > > > > > > > > come on here

> > > > > > > > > > > > > as a first port of call but then move on to doing their own

> > > > > > > > > > fundamental

> > > > > > > > > > > > > research or go with their medical teams advice and never come

> > > > > > > > > > back.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > It's great, fantastic, that so many of you are fervent

> > > > > > > > > > supporters of DASH

> > > > > > > > > > > > > and meds. Really - I absolutely mean that. But that doesn't

> > > > > > > > > > mean there isn't

> > > > > > > > > > > > > ever a case for surgery. Now I'll do my best to be equally

> > > > > > > > > > fervent in

> > > > > > > > > > > > > support of surgery when I think somebody has a case for it -

> > > > > > > > > > that's why I'm

> > > > > > > > > > > > > still here. Because that's how it's all going to work, imho.

> > > > > > > > > > But I'm not a

> > > > > > > > > > > > > medic and I won't be up to date with the latest research so

> > > > > > > > > > I'll never carry

> > > > > > > > > > > > > as much weight as many of you. So hopefully there will be

> > > > > > > > > > others around

> > > > > > > > > > > > > giving an alternative view-point too. And if that isn't

> > > > > > > > > > welcome then there

> > > > > > > > > > > > > should be something in the intro about this being a forum for

> > > > > > > > > > supporting

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Conn's sufferers through diet and meds rather than it being a

> > > > > > > > > > general PA

> > > > > > > > > > > > > support site.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > H

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

October 13, 2011

It's unfortunate that ins. and government think they can mess with our quality

of life over a few dollars. I have seen numbers as high as 50% of the people on

Spiro have adverse effects! Once you start and experience one or more you need

to judge whether to switch or go for the AVS and operation. I for instance have

boobs and wonder what else is going on from excess hormones that God didn't

intend me to have! Maybe we could add in a little testerone and develop a

unisex! I also have to be real careful to take my dose close to exactly 12

hours apart. When I was dosing at 50/25 I was experiencing gastric issues. I

eliminated them by cutting the am dose back to 25mg. (Unfortunately one of the

main times there is a variance is when traveling, not a good time to be bathroom

hunting in a hurry!)

Now I need to decide if I switch, stay and live with it or proceede with

investigating removal of the tumor. Depends (No, not yet!) I'm leaning toward

switching but one major obstacle is my PCP. She is of the persuasion that if

it's working, don't change! (Remember, this is her first trip down this path!)

If I switch, how do I do that? Do I just get up one morning and grab a

different pill bottle, doubling the dose, or do I need to back out of Spiro and

then start Epler? Might be easier to have just started with the correct

medicine in the first place!

Taking Spirolactone reminds me of the example of Gin and Tonic causing liver

problems when it is really just the Gin. Most people like both so take it and

just ignore any side effects of the Gin!

- 65 yo super ob. male - 12mm X 13mm rt. a.adnoma with previous rt. flank

pain. Treating with Meds. And DASH. . Current BP(last week ave): 125/73

Other Issues/Opportunities: OSA w Bi-Pap settings 13/19, DM2, and PTSD.

Meds: Duloxetine hcl 80 MG, Mirtazapine 7.5 MG, Metoprolol Tartrate 200 MG,

81mg asprin, Metformin 2000MG and Spironolactone 50 MG.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm going to take exception to your " whole lot of

opinions "

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > comment. Many times I reference professional

articles so the only

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > opinion I give is that I think this article may have

value - you

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > judge the quality if you choose to review it! I try

to be careful

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > not to practice med. w/o a license!

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

October 13, 2011

Much if not all research money comes from grants and most grant money cames from

tax payers. So we pay much of the cost for new drugs. Then we pay sometimes a

lot money for the same drugs. very much a win win for drug companies

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm going to take exception to your " whole lot

of opinions "

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > comment. Many times I reference professional

articles so the only

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > opinion I give is that I think this article may

have value - you

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > judge the quality if you choose to review it! I

try to be careful

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not to practice med. w/o a license!

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

October 13, 2011

FYI life is tumorogenic as well. Recommend you read the drug insert for every drug u take. If you take supplements you are on your own. See vit E study for example in the news. Tiped sad Send form miiPhone ;-)May your pressure be low!CE Grim MDSpecializing in DifficultHypertension

Also have to question the wisdom of lifetime drug therapy with a "tumorigenic" substance in those of us who have tumors.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > There has been some research posted about the failure of

> > > > > > > > > > surgery many years

> > > > > > > > > > > > > later. If you have one adenoma, you could very well develop

> > > > > > > > > > another on the

> > > > > > > > > > > > > other adrenal. That's why Dr. Grim recommends DASH, meds first

> > > > > > > > > > and surgery

> > > > > > > > > > > > > last. I don't want opinions; I want facts supported by

> > > > > > > > > > research, or at

> > > > > > > > > > > > > least by expert opinion.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Val

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > From: hyperaldosteronism

> > > > > > > > > > > > > [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of

> > > > > > > > > > hesterfenwick

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe it is about how to find the discussions because

> > > > > > > > > > searching thtough old

> > > > > > > > > > > > > discussions is nigh-on impossible by thread title. But I never

> > > > > > > > > > had any

> > > > > > > > > > > > > response to my 'pros and cons' question beyond being told DASH

> > > > > > > > > > and meds was

> > > > > > > > > > > > > the way to go - despite pressing and pressing for the

> > > > > > > > > > equivalent analysis on

> > > > > > > > > > > > > surgery. And in the year since then I've seen very little

> > > > > > > > > > support for

> > > > > > > > > > > > > surgery. Now in my case (under 40, clear adenoma, BP

> > > > > > > > > > controlled my minimal

> > > > > > > > > > > > > meds, PA short term) it was a no-brainer according to all the

> > > > > > > > > > other research

> > > > > > > > > > > > > I could lay my hands on.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > When I got no response on here to surgery questions, I did

> > > > > > > > > > trawl through Pub

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Med and every other piece of research I could find - but it

> > > > > > > > > > would have been

> > > > > > > > > > > > > lovely to have been able to speed that up by getting some

> > > > > > > > > > facts on here to

> > > > > > > > > > > > > begin with. And I'm guessing that's what many others do - they

> > > > > > > > > > come on here

> > > > > > > > > > > > > as a first port of call but then move on to doing their own

> > > > > > > > > > fundamental

> > > > > > > > > > > > > research or go with their medical teams advice and never come

> > > > > > > > > > back.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > It's great, fantastic, that so many of you are fervent

> > > > > > > > > > supporters of DASH

> > > > > > > > > > > > > and meds. Really - I absolutely mean that. But that doesn't

> > > > > > > > > > mean there isn't

> > > > > > > > > > > > > ever a case for surgery. Now I'll do my best to be equally

> > > > > > > > > > fervent in

> > > > > > > > > > > > > support of surgery when I think somebody has a case for it -

> > > > > > > > > > that's why I'm

> > > > > > > > > > > > > still here. Because that's how it's all going to work, imho.

> > > > > > > > > > But I'm not a

> > > > > > > > > > > > > medic and I won't be up to date with the latest research so

> > > > > > > > > > I'll never carry

> > > > > > > > > > > > > as much weight as many of you. So hopefully there will be

> > > > > > > > > > others around

> > > > > > > > > > > > > giving an alternative view-point too. And if that isn't

> > > > > > > > > > welcome then there

> > > > > > > > > > > > > should be something in the intro about this being a forum for

> > > > > > > > > > supporting

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Conn's sufferers through diet and meds rather than it being a

> > > > > > > > > > general PA

> > > > > > > > > > > > > support site.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > H

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

October 13, 2011

Most drug ressearch comes from the companies themselves bTiped sad Send form miiPhone ;-)May your pressure be low!CE Grim MDSpecializing in DifficultHypertension

Much if not all research money comes from grants and most grant money cames from tax payers. So we pay much of the cost for new drugs. Then we pay sometimes a lot money for the same drugs. very much a win win for drug companies

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm going to take exception to your "whole lot of opinions"

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > comment. Many times I reference professional articles so the only

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > opinion I give is that I think this article may have value - you

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > judge the quality if you choose to review it! I try to be careful

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not to practice med. w/o a license!

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

October 13, 2011

Most who are on spiro Are not dashing and therefore must take up to 50 x what they need compared to low sodium diet nTiped sad Send form miiPhone ;-)May your pressure be low!CE Grim MDSpecializing in DifficultHypertension

It's unfortunate that ins. and government think they can mess with our quality of life over a few dollars. I have seen numbers as high as 50% of the people on Spiro have adverse effects! Once you start and experience one or more you need to judge whether to switch or go for the AVS and operation. I for instance have boobs and wonder what else is going on from excess hormones that God didn't intend me to have! Maybe we could add in a little testerone and develop a unisex! I also have to be real careful to take my dose close to exactly 12 hours apart. When I was dosing at 50/25 I was experiencing gastric issues. I eliminated them by cutting the am dose back to 25mg. (Unfortunately one of the main times there is a variance is when traveling, not a good time to be bathroom hunting in a hurry!)

Now I need to decide if I switch, stay and live with it or proceede with investigating removal of the tumor. Depends (No, not yet!) I'm leaning toward switching but one major obstacle is my PCP. She is of the persuasion that if it's working, don't change! (Remember, this is her first trip down this path!)

If I switch, how do I do that? Do I just get up one morning and grab a different pill bottle, doubling the dose, or do I need to back out of Spiro and then start Epler? Might be easier to have just started with the correct medicine in the first place!

Taking Spirolactone reminds me of the example of Gin and Tonic causing liver problems when it is really just the Gin. Most people like both so take it and just ignore any side effects of the Gin!

- 65 yo super ob. male - 12mm X 13mm rt. a.adnoma with previous rt. flank pain. Treating with Meds. And DASH. . Current BP(last week ave): 125/73

Other Issues/Opportunities: OSA w Bi-Pap settings 13/19, DM2, and PTSD.

Meds: Duloxetine hcl 80 MG, Mirtazapine 7.5 MG, Metoprolol Tartrate 200 MG, 81mg asprin, Metformin 2000MG and Spironolactone 50 MG.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm going to take exception to your "whole lot of opinions"

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > comment. Many times I reference professional articles so the only

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > opinion I give is that I think this article may have value - you

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > judge the quality if you choose to review it! I try to be careful

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > not to practice med. w/o a license!

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

October 13, 2011

Guess it depends on what you read.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm going to take exception to your " whole

lot of opinions "

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > comment. Many times I reference professional

articles so the only

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > opinion I give is that I think this article

may have value - you

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > judge the quality if you choose to review it!

I try to be careful

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not to practice med. w/o a license!

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

October 15, 2011

When one is unsure if they have PA and are on any meds that can make them hold

on to K. DASH may not be the right thing to do. If Dr is no on board with DASH

to track K. This is the reason I limit doing DASH.

64 y old N.H. Vet with possable PA BP readings as high 199/100 K drop from 4.3

to 3.2 after being started 25 MG of HYDROCHLOROTHIAZIDE fulid retention

Dizziness Fatigue Tachycardia PVC shortness of breath brain fog Not sure how to

describe this but to say Kinetic Activity 2 cm tumor on left adrenal gland 2.2

cm exophytic low density lesion off the mid pole of the left kidney which

measures 34 HU, greater than expected for a simple cyst.

3 NEG stress tests 2 NEG EHCO

meds I now take and was on for the two PRA ratio test. PAR ratio wasn't high to

DX PA

ATENOLOL25MG TRIAMTERENE50MG POTASSIUM CHLORIDE 20MEQ

FUROSEMIDE 60MG TAB.

Information from first Test done at the VA and quest labs. RENIN: 1.8 ng/mL/hr

Current Range 0.65-5.0 ng/mL/hr

SERUM ALDOS: 16 ng/dL Current adult reference range:

Upright 8:00-10:00 am < or = 28 ng/dL

Upright 4:00-6:00 pm < or = 21 ng/dL

Supine 8:00-10:00 am 3-16 ng/dL

Test done At Dartmouth RENIN ACTIVITY .8 no range given

ALDOSTERONE 5.5 range <=21