Introduction

[Guest guest]

,

I had my first surgery March, '99 for what I thought

was a disc problem. The doctor found a cyst, removed it, and closed

me up . Turns out I REALLY had spondilothesis (unstable vertebra

at L4-L5) and that first surgery just made the vertebrae more unstable.

I had two more surgeries March, '00 -- anterior and posterior fusions.

I was improving until two months ago when I injured myself in physical

therapy. I seem to have recovered from that, but now am in pain similar

to that which I experiences before the last surgeries. I had another

mylogram Thursday to see if other vertebrae are now unstable. I'm

scheduled for a cortezone injection this coming Thursday.

I just try to get through one day at a time and

try to stay ahead of the pain.

Sunny

maria wrote:

Hi

Everyone, My name is I am 35 years old. Married for 15 years

to a great man. I am also having a great deal of chronic pain, as much

of you do. In 1997 I had an accident at work. I was admitted to the hospital

on New years day of 1998. Happy new Year to me!! haha. I can laugh

now, but at the time it was the most horrifying experience...They put me

on a Morphine pump, and got me to the MRI machine...To make a lng story

short, I had a Massive herniation at L4-L5. It was so bad bad that they

did emergency surgery on a Saturday, told my family if they waited I would

be paralyzed and have a Colostomy bag...YIKES! I was out of it, so of course

my family werent going to say no....etc Anyway, it hernaited

again in March and I had another surgery done...It has left me with RSD

and severe nerve damage to my lower extremeties. I have been diagnosed

with Fibromyalgia, Raynauds, Degenerative Disc disease. I am just a walking

Syndrome...I just wanted you all to know my background before I just jump

and start posting...I have been to physical therapy, cortisone shots, epidurals,

tons of medications, was going for the SCS but got denied from comp. So,

now I am on darocet...and it is like taking a sleeping pill...I have alot

of pain in my legs, back, hips, feet...nothing touches this nerve pain.

I am working with an excellent Dr. to try all things we can..Do any of

you have simliar situations or symptoms????? Thanks for time and sorry

this is sooo long! Hugs ~~*Forever A Rottie

Lover*~~

marianoscar@...

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[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Have come to believe doctors are often more interested in giving a

name to what you have than doing something about it. They often just can't

simplify problems, but feel pressed to do so. We could all exchange

theories about what you may have, or just maybe you can get appropriate

treatment for it.

Seems your doc is concerned. If you were put on a morphine pump in

your hospital adventure. It may be reasonable for your doctor to give you

more effective pain medications. There are plenty. Also narcotic patches

that give rather good relief with a very conservative amount of narcotic

because they dont have to go through the digestive system.

If he doesn't understand your level of pain, you can get plenty of

help with that here.

You might want to explain the situation a little more.

Ken

At 04:28 PM 12/1/00 -0500, maria wisely said:

>I have been diagnosed with Fibromyalgia, Raynauds, Degenerative Disc

>disease. I am just a walking Syndrome...

[Guest guest]

Hi Ken, I couldn't agree more...lol I need something stronger, but the problem is I dont want to go through life as a zombie...I like to keep busy and not want to sleep all day as result of taking meds....Its a hard circle I am in....Hugs

~~*Forever A Rottie Lover*~~ marianoscar@...

Re: Re: Introduction

Hi , Have come to believe doctors are often more interested in giving a name to what you have than doing something about it. They often just can't simplify problems, but feel pressed to do so. We could all exchange theories about what you may have, or just maybe you can get appropriate treatment for it. Seems your doc is concerned. If you were put on a morphine pump in your hospital adventure. It may be reasonable for your doctor to give you more effective pain medications. There are plenty. Also narcotic patches that give rather good relief with a very conservative amount of narcotic because they dont have to go through the digestive system. If he doesn't understand your level of pain, you can get plenty of help with that here. You might want to explain the situation a little more. KenAt 04:28 PM 12/1/00 -0500, maria wisely said:>I have been diagnosed with Fibromyalgia, Raynauds, Degenerative Disc >disease. I am just a walking Syndrome...-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~>eGroups eLertsIt's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!>Know'>http://click./1/9698/0/_/82384/_/975838295/-------------------------------------------------------------------->Know someone who could profit from our list? Send our direct sign-up URL: /subscribe.cgi/chronic_pain or write us at: chronic_pain-listowneregroupsManage your subscription with several special email addresses:chronic_pain-owneregroups - Sends email to the list owners chronic_pain-subscribeegroups - Subscribe to the list through email chronic_pain-unsubscribeegroups - Unsubscribe from the list chronic_pain-normalegroups - Switch your subscription to normal chronic_pain-digestegroups - Switch your subscription to digest

[Guest guest]

Hi Ken, I couldn't agree more...lol I need something stronger, but the problem is I dont want to go through life as a zombie...I like to keep busy and not want to sleep all day as result of taking meds....Its a hard circle I am in....Hugs

~~*Forever A Rottie Lover*~~ marianoscar@...

Re: Re: Introduction

Hi , Have come to believe doctors are often more interested in giving a name to what you have than doing something about it. They often just can't simplify problems, but feel pressed to do so. We could all exchange theories about what you may have, or just maybe you can get appropriate treatment for it. Seems your doc is concerned. If you were put on a morphine pump in your hospital adventure. It may be reasonable for your doctor to give you more effective pain medications. There are plenty. Also narcotic patches that give rather good relief with a very conservative amount of narcotic because they dont have to go through the digestive system. If he doesn't understand your level of pain, you can get plenty of help with that here. You might want to explain the situation a little more. KenAt 04:28 PM 12/1/00 -0500, maria wisely said:>I have been diagnosed with Fibromyalgia, Raynauds, Degenerative Disc >disease. I am just a walking Syndrome...-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~>eGroups eLertsIt's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!>Know'>http://click./1/9698/0/_/82384/_/975838295/-------------------------------------------------------------------->Know someone who could profit from our list? Send our direct sign-up URL: /subscribe.cgi/chronic_pain or write us at: chronic_pain-listowneregroupsManage your subscription with several special email addresses:chronic_pain-owneregroups - Sends email to the list owners chronic_pain-subscribeegroups - Subscribe to the list through email chronic_pain-unsubscribeegroups - Unsubscribe from the list chronic_pain-normalegroups - Switch your subscription to normal chronic_pain-digestegroups - Switch your subscription to digest

[Guest guest]

At 11:07 AM 12/3/00 -0500, maria wisely said:

>but the problem is I dont want to go through life as a zombie...I like to

>keep busy and

There is a period of adjustment with narcotics, and then it ought

to be able to be fine tuned as much as possible. I think elavil is more

zombifying than narcotics. At least in my experience.

I have a pretty much daily arthritic syndrome around 4-6 PM many

days, and take an herbal energizer that does not contain Ma Huang

(adrenaline) or Kola stimulants. Works for me.

Ken

[Guest guest]

At 11:07 AM 12/3/00 -0500, maria wisely said:

>but the problem is I dont want to go through life as a zombie...I like to

>keep busy and

There is a period of adjustment with narcotics, and then it ought

to be able to be fine tuned as much as possible. I think elavil is more

zombifying than narcotics. At least in my experience.

I have a pretty much daily arthritic syndrome around 4-6 PM many

days, and take an herbal energizer that does not contain Ma Huang

(adrenaline) or Kola stimulants. Works for me.

Ken

[Guest guest]

Hi Ken...Thanks! Im willing to try anything at this point! Hugs~~~

~~*Forever A Rottie Lover*~~ marianoscar@...http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1234051 & a=9109287

Re: Re: Introduction

At 11:07 AM 12/3/00 -0500, maria wisely said:>but the problem is I dont want to go through life as a zombie...I like to >keep busy and There is a period of adjustment with narcotics, and then it ought to be able to be fine tuned as much as possible. I think elavil is more zombifying than narcotics. At least in my experience. I have a pretty much daily arthritic syndrome around 4-6 PM many days, and take an herbal energizer that does not contain Ma Huang (adrenaline) or Kola stimulants. Works for me. Ken-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~>eGroups eLertsIt's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!>Know'>http://click./1/9698/0/_/82384/_/975996117/-------------------------------------------------------------------->Know someone who could profit from our list? Send our direct sign-up URL: /subscribe.cgi/chronic_pain or write us at: chronic_pain-listowneregroupsManage your subscription with several special email addresses:chronic_pain-owneregroups - Sends email to the list owners chronic_pain-subscribeegroups - Subscribe to the list through email chronic_pain-unsubscribeegroups - Unsubscribe from the list chronic_pain-normalegroups - Switch your subscription to normal chronic_pain-digestegroups - Switch your subscription to digest

[Guest guest]

Ken,

What kind of herbal energizer do you take?

Sunny

Turbin wrote:

> At 11:07 AM 12/3/00 -0500, maria wisely said:

> >but the problem is I dont want to go through life as a zombie...I like to

> >keep busy and

>

> There is a period of adjustment with narcotics, and then it ought

> to be able to be fine tuned as much as possible. I think elavil is more

> zombifying than narcotics. At least in my experience.

>

> I have a pretty much daily arthritic syndrome around 4-6 PM many

> days, and take an herbal energizer that does not contain Ma Huang

> (adrenaline) or Kola stimulants. Works for me.

>

> Ken

>

>

> Know someone who could profit from our list? Send our direct sign-up URL:

/subscribe.cgi/chronic_pain or write us at:

chronic_pain-listowneregroups

> Manage your subscription with several special email addresses:

> chronic_pain-owneregroups - Sends email to the list owners

> chronic_pain-subscribeegroups - Subscribe to the list through email

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> chronic_pain-digestegroups - Switch your subscription to digest

[Guest guest]

Ken,

What kind of herbal energizer do you take?

Sunny

Turbin wrote:

> At 11:07 AM 12/3/00 -0500, maria wisely said:

> >but the problem is I dont want to go through life as a zombie...I like to

> >keep busy and

>

> There is a period of adjustment with narcotics, and then it ought

> to be able to be fine tuned as much as possible. I think elavil is more

> zombifying than narcotics. At least in my experience.

>

> I have a pretty much daily arthritic syndrome around 4-6 PM many

> days, and take an herbal energizer that does not contain Ma Huang

> (adrenaline) or Kola stimulants. Works for me.

>

> Ken

>

>

> Know someone who could profit from our list? Send our direct sign-up URL:

/subscribe.cgi/chronic_pain or write us at:

chronic_pain-listowneregroups

> Manage your subscription with several special email addresses:

> chronic_pain-owneregroups - Sends email to the list owners

> chronic_pain-subscribeegroups - Subscribe to the list through email

> chronic_pain-unsubscribeegroups - Unsubscribe from the list

> chronic_pain-normalegroups - Switch your subscription to normal

> chronic_pain-digestegroups - Switch your subscription to digest

[Guest guest]

At 11:16 AM 12/9/00 +0000, Sunny Milton wisely said:

>Ken,

> What kind of herbal energizer do you take?

> Sunny

Hi Sunny,

The product is called Mega-Energy and made by Sundown. It is

usually in Rite Aide & I am sure many other drug stores. There are a few

products that look just like it, Ultra-Energy, which is cheaper & probably

less useful.

I find a tablet or 2 of the Ultra-Energy, 2tablets of Alpha Lipoic

acid (accelerates nerve impulse conduction), Gotu Kola (which increases

blood flow, and does so in the brain leaving me more clear-headed plus some

extra neurontin & possibly a pain-killer if needed let me get up & function

when I otherwise couldn't.

Ken

[Guest guest]

At 11:16 AM 12/9/00 +0000, Sunny Milton wisely said:

>Ken,

> What kind of herbal energizer do you take?

> Sunny

Hi Sunny,

The product is called Mega-Energy and made by Sundown. It is

usually in Rite Aide & I am sure many other drug stores. There are a few

products that look just like it, Ultra-Energy, which is cheaper & probably

less useful.

I find a tablet or 2 of the Ultra-Energy, 2tablets of Alpha Lipoic

acid (accelerates nerve impulse conduction), Gotu Kola (which increases

blood flow, and does so in the brain leaving me more clear-headed plus some

extra neurontin & possibly a pain-killer if needed let me get up & function

when I otherwise couldn't.

Ken

[Guest guest]

Hi Dave,

You wrote:

<<

.... and a 64-year-old mother who is exceptionally anxious, has Crohn's

Disease, and was diagnosed with terminal cancer two Septembers ago. She

also has BPD.

>>

Phew, yes, this brings up memories. What kind of cancer does your nada

have? My nada died of colorectal cancer. Because we listened to her, she

was 10 days from death by the time we got her to see a doctor. A few

days prior to that she had hemorrhaged all over the carpet and raged at

dad and I when we tried to help her clean it up. She finally consented

to seeing a doctor if I'd buy her a pretty dress, which I did.

Post-surgically, dad had her put in a nursing-home as she was just too

difficult for us to take care of. She lived another year after the

surgery (ie, colostomy). Dad would visit with her an hour in the

morning, to make sure she ate breakfast, and I'd visit an hour in the

evening, to make sure she ate her dinner. Gradually the cancer invaded

her brain and towards the end she actually forgot who and how to hate.

Plus, she had lost her ability to speak. When she died, dad and I felt a

ton of weight lifted from our shoulders when she took her final breath.

At that time dad and I were both her enablers. I/we didn't know about

BPD and codependency then but I would do things much differently today

-- including not taking her accusations of staff seriously, & etc etc.

<<

.... The most unsettling thing now in my life is after having moved nada

into a wonderful in-patient hospice a month ago, she wants out. She

believes they're not providing her compassionate comfort. She's overly

sensitive to noises and scents. She believes that the medicines she

takes (sometimes) make her worse. She believes the nurses and others

there are mean to her. She's fixated on a memory of a few weeks ago that

she had to wait three hours for a medication (this probably didn't even

happen).

>>

Yes, for the person with BPD, " Feelings Create Facts " (SWOE, p 56).

<<

And today, it appears she's going to leave the hospice.

I usually do most of the silly things my mom asks me. But I do draw

the line. Last week my mom was infuriated with me when I had a talk with

her, letting her know that I trusted the staff, saw no evidence of what

she was charging them with, and suggested she'd be better off letting go

of her negative feelings as best she can.

>>

BPDs have cognitive distortions, what she heard was that you said there

was something wrong with her. Nadas always have to be right.

<<

She informed me that she could no longer trust me and asked me to leave.

>>

Yes, this would be her expected response. She split you into " all bad "

and she abandoned you by asking you to leave.

<<

Two days later we made up when I called her and said I'd like for us to

get along. But today, after she realized I wouldn't play her game, she

got angry at me again.

>>

Of course. This is what we would expect a nada to do.

<<

I told her flat out that she shouldn't do this because she has nowhere

to go. She was counting on me to take her side, go to pick her up, and

take her God-knows-where.

>>

Yes, as long as she can manipulate and control you you're split into

" all good " , and when she can't manipulate and control you then you're

split " all bad " . Splitting is one of the main defense mechanisms used by

people with BPD -- along with projection, denial, and rationalization.

And, if you moved her somewhere else, you'd go through the same thing

again.

<<

Is there anybody else on this list that has experience with a nada or

fada who also has a terminal illness? To say this is a challenge is the

understatement of the year...

>>

Yes, yes, yes. I think one of the most difficult things for KOs to do is

set boundaries (ie, limits) with their BP parent -- and its especially

difficult when that parent is sick. If you have truly " drawn the line " ,

as you've stated above, then it helps to think in strictly black-white

terms. If you've said " No " , stick to it and mean it. Your nada will do

everything she can -- ie, FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) stuff -- to wear

you down. It may mean that you'll have to limit your exposure to her but

I would also contact her doctor and inform him/her of your mother's BPD

and ask if perhaps they can medicate her with a tranquilizer???

You certainly have your plate full, Dave, and I hope this helps.

Hugs & Peace,

Edith

..

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the reply Edith. It's good to know I'm not completely alone...

You wrote:

> Phew, yes, this brings up memories. What kind of cancer does your nada

> have?

Adenocarcinoma of Unknown Primary. Two Septembers ago, she was hospitalized

because of a flare-up of her Crohn's Disease. They discovered fluid in her

right pleural space, and they found cancerous cells in it. By cellular

analysis, they determined that the cancer did not originate there; therefore

it had already metastasized. They suspected the primary site to be lung,

breast, or colon (because of the cellular structure of the cancer). They did

the usual tests but could not locate a primary site (then again, nada

refused a dye injection for one of those tests which would have provided an

image with better contrast). A CAT scan revealed something in the right

lung, but it was still impossible to determine if it was the primary site or

not. Interestingly, I later learned that 4 years prior to all this, her

doctor actually instructed her after an X-ray to get more tests to rule out

lung cancer. He didn't feel at the time what he saw was malignant, but he

wanted to be safe. True to her self, she refused, and now she believes that

the doctor hid this information from her. Although she's felt MANY times

that she was dying (actually this theme existed prior to the diagnosis), I'd

have to say that she certainly has beaten her original prognosis (6 months)

up until now. But instantly, she believed she had problems breathing and

took off from work and collected Disability. Her life then became even worse

because she became completely focused on the negativity of her cancer.

But for close to a year, the cancer didn't seem to be spreading at all.

Interesting, as she always refused the options of chemo and radiation. But

the most recent CAT scan revealed that the cancer is most definitely

spreading now.

> I would also contact her doctor and inform him/her of your mother's BPD

> and ask if perhaps they can medicate her with a tranquilizer???

That made me laugh out loud! They know about the BPD. Nada believes the

tranquilizer (Klonopin) makes her anxious! Then again, this was the same

medicine she was hoarding. If she took it as prescribed AND didn't have such

a strong belief against it (or other anxiolitics for that matter, including

Ativan), I'm sure it would help her considerably, But she refuses it most

(but, obviously not all) of the time. They did just start giving her Valium

enemas which really seem to take away the high anxiety, but, boy, does she

look horrible and miserable--all the life drained out. She is definitely

suffering a lot and frequently asks for a Kevorkian-like gesture to put her

out of her misery.

> You certainly have your plate full, Dave, and I hope this helps.

>

> Hugs & Peace,

> Edith

Thanks, Edith. Actually, it was when I reread my first paragraph in my

introduction that it *really* hit home about how full my plate is! I see a

therapist twice a month, and now I've found this email list. And it does

help. Thanks again.

--

Regards,

Dave

[Guest guest]

Hi Dave, and welcome.

I would have to agree with Edith that your plate is

very full! I have not yet been in your situation, but

at least one other person on our list has (Diane, I

think?). Her nada's health is failing, and she

recently made the decision to cut contact with her,

despite the health problems.

I think you're doing the right thing by setting your

boundaries, and sticking to them. I suspect she will

use all of her powers (FOG) to maniuplate you, so

you're going to have to be very strong. Remember, you

don't have to convince her that you're doing the right

thing -- she doesn't have to agree with your plan of

action in order for you to follow through with it.

It sounds like your nada has been officially diagnosed

with BPD... this is quite unusual -- for many reasons

(not the least of which is that it goes into your

permanent medical record, making many therapists wary

of the label and its long-term ramifications). I'm

curious as to what her thoughts about the diagnosis

are? As far as I know, there is no one else on this

list who's nada/fada/etc. has been officially

diagnosed.

Best of luck, and keep posting.

--Anon

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hi Dave and welcome to the list. You must be a very strong guy to have handled

this for so long

and not want to just walk out the door. Thinking of those poor nurses that take

care of your nada -

you might want to take them a big box of chocolates - sounds like they need

them!!

How is your wife? Hope your nada didn't cause problems with your marriage when

she was up and able.

BPs are so good at that.

Best wishes,

Ilene in TX

[Guest guest]

No prob. bageria,

Interesting, very interesting indeed. um

Shirley

[Guest guest]

Hi Bagira... I love Bagheera too! My kids and I watch the Jungle Book all

the time. There is just something so cool about the tough, black panther.

She seems to be in control and have the answer for everything!

Welcome!

XOXO,

Crissie

Introduction

Hi!

First I just want to thank creators, owners and moderators of this

list. We KO, need it so badly, we all need validation, understanding

and support. Thank you very much, you are helping people, probably

even more than you know. It is sanity saver.

I just joined the list, and I read many posts and yes, it could be

me, who was wrote them. I wanted to reply to almost everyone, and say

that I understand how he or she feels and that I have same problems,

and there was posts which described exactly how I feel, but I was not

able to put it into words for years. Yes, some times I have problem

to express my feelings. I hope we can become friends and help each

other to fight our enemy - BPD.

My name is Bagira. It is not my real name. Bagira (or Bagheera) a

Black Panther from the book of Rudyard Kipling " Mowgli " . She

protected a little boy, Mowgli, who was raised by wolf's family in

Jungles from his enemies and carnivores. " Mowgli " was my favorite

book, when I was a little girl. When I was picking a name for my

anonymous e-mail account for BPD/NPD related problems I just thought

of Bagheera - I just like her. " We be of one blood, thou and I " - I

like those words so much! There is sense of belonging and validation

in them, what most of us, KOs, need and lacking so badly.

Even though I live in the USA, English is my second language. So if

I'll say something funny or awkward, or understand anyone of you

wrongly, please forgive me. :)

I just had my 36th birthday and I am female.

As far as I understand, my mother have some combination of traits of

Cluster B personality disorders I think BPD/NPD, and she can be

*very* dramatic and like to the center of attention - which is

Histrionic Personality Disorder characteristic. She is extremely

functional, and soon will be 63.

My father choused to withdraw and in his younger years he was passive-

aggressive, but now he is totally co-dependent. He soon will be 65.

First I've read about BPD in women's magazine, like " Glamour " about 8

years ago. It was a short article, which says that people with this

disorder are mostly women under 30, and symptom of this disorder,

when you emotional pain you feel, can be compared to physical, but

after 30 symptoms subsides. It was me, but I was approaching 30

anyway. Then, about 5 years ago I've been in the bookstore, on saw

the bookshelf the book " I Hate You-Don't Leave Me: Understanding the

Borderline Personality " , it rung a lot of bells, but I did not have

time to stop. 3.5 years ago, when I finally was able to move away

from my parents (not far, though. We live in the same apartment

building - don't ask me how its happened:() - hell broke loose for

me. Thanks GOD, I was able to work, but when I come home, all I

wanted to do is to cry. My romantic relationships become total

disaster. I felt, like I was loosing my sanity.

II was scared of my self and I did not know what to do. I knew it was

more than depression. In July of the year 2000, I found relationships

forum. I saw some people were saying they have BPD. I've rented

the movie `Girl Interrupted', and I saw the girl, who was

struggling for herself. I decided I have to learn about the BPD. To

my own horror and relieve, I recognized my mother. Her manipulation,

her sudden anger, her suicide threads, her push and pull behavior,

her stubbing me in the back, betraying me and sincerely not

understanding what she is doing wrong, everything was BPD, but there

was something more to it. I found out also, that I have complex PTSD

and SHE is my TRIGGER(!!!) and of course many `fleas'. First

symptom

of complex PTSD, `the first requirement for the diagnosis is that

the individual experienced a prolonged period (months to years) of

total control by another'. I never let her control me, I am

rebel, but

it was a constant battle, with lot of distractions, lies,

manipulations and heartache. I just felt like I had a very long

battle, which was just over, but I have to return home.

I confronted her. Partly (big part!) because I felt vindictive. My

father's mother had paranoia, and my mother was telling me since

I was a little girl, that I might end up with Mental Health problems.

And now it was she, who is having one. I through it into her face.

(My father hide his smile, when he heard this) She denied she has a

problem. Fact that I live so close to her delay my recovery from

PTSD, I still feel emotionally raped, but I am dealing with it. So

far she is not dare to violate my boundaries, but I can't relax

completely and let my guard down, which takes a lot of energy from

me. I wonder if she is feeding on this (my energy). Somehow I found

peace with my self and moved on with my life, but month ago I

realized I can't be in denial anymore. In the same relationship

forum, a met many people who had problems with their parents, someone

suggested it is NPD. When I learned about it, I finally understood

how my MM operates. It is combination BPD/NPD which is not uncommon.

My introduction probably bit too long, but I just happy that I found

this group.

Thanks for listening.

Bagira.

~ People joining this list must read the guidelines and agree to them before

posting. To get off the list, send a blank message to

ModOasis-unsubscribeeGroups. Send questions & concerns to

ModOasis-owneronelist. " Stop Waking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs

can be ordered via 1-888-35-SHELL (). For the table of contents,

see http://www.BPDCentral.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Bagira,

You wrote:

<<

.... I hope we can become friends and help each other to fight our enemy

– BPD.

>>

That's why we're here. We KOs on this list are all survivors and our

Oasis in cyberspace was created to help others, like us, get their

birthright back -- ie, to find their Self, to find their voice, and

become empowered.

<<

My name is Bagira. It is not my real name. Bagira (or Bagheera) a Black

Panther from the book of Rudyard Kipling " Mowgli " . She protected a

little boy, Mowgli, who was raised by wolf's family in Jungles from his

enemies and carnivores. " Mowgli " was my favorite book, when I was a

little girl. When I was picking a name for my anonymous e-mail account

for BPD/NPD related problems I just thought of Bagheera - I just like

her. " We be of one blood, thou and I " - I like those words so much!

There is sense of belonging and validation in them, what most of us,

KOs, need and lacking so badly.

>>

Yes, and that's neat.

<<

Even though I live in the USA, English is my second language. So if I'll

say something funny or awkward, or understand anyone of you wrongly,

please forgive me. :)

>>

No problem.

<<

.... my mother have some combination of traits of Cluster B personality

disorders I think BPD/NPD, and she can be *very* dramatic and like to

the center of attention - which is Histrionic Personality Disorder

characteristic. She is extremely functional, and soon will be 63.

>>

The cluster B's are rarely " pure " BPD or Histrionic or Narcissistic,

etc. As a general rule, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck,

then its probably a duck. If you are helped by being on the list, then

you're at the right place.

<<

My father choused to withdraw and in his younger years he was

passive-aggressive, but now he is totally co-dependent.

>>

Yup, sounds like he got ground down into the dust.

<<

First I've read about BPD in women's magazine, like " Glamour " about 8

years ago. ... <snip> ... When I learned about it, I finally understood

how my MM operates. It is combination BPD/NPD which is not uncommon. My

introduction probably bit too long, but I just happy that I found this

group.

>>

Like the rest of us, you've had a long journey -- and we're glad you

found us. Welcome to our Oasis in cyberspace.

Hugs,

Edith

..

[Guest guest]

Hi Shirley!

I am glad you are interested. I've read your comments on others

members posts and found them quiet interesting too. :

What is your story or/and background if you don't mind to share of

course?

Bagira

P.S. By the way my handle is Bagira, not bageria, but this is no

problem.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/11/01 6:17:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, vqfin@...

writes:

<< But I do feel guilt and sorrow for the lack of relationship. Being an

only child, I feel immense pressure to maintain contact. I feel bad

for her, because she is so utterly clueless. >>

hi, Vee, I'm so sorry about your situation. my brother took off years ago

and I am nada's only relative in our area of the country, so consequently I

have dealt with the pressure from society and family members to maintain

contact a lot. Due to a supportive and extremely helpful therapist, I have

lately been able to pretty well control and restrict my nada's access to me.

Nada also lives in a state-run residential home for the mentally ill which is

a real help - she has a nurse there during the daytime.

People's comments on this list are really insightful and very helpful as you

commented. Please keep writing.

Love,

Lissa

[Guest guest]

Hi Vee,

Welcome to our little oasis! I am almost 30 and have an undiagnosed BP mother.

I've managed to maintain a semblance of a relationship for now (nada is very

high-functioning and doesn't rage very often), so I'm not quite in the same

spot as you, but there are many people on this list who have severely limited

or completely discontinued contact with nada/fada, and I bet they'd be happy to

share their stories with you! Just start throwing questions out there.

We joke a lot about being twins and siblings on this list because we all seem

to have so much in common. So keep posting, I think you'll like it a lot.

Hugs,

Anon

--- vqfin@... wrote:

>

>

> Hi there - I'm subscribed to a few of the other support lists, but I

> just recently found this one. My name is Vee, and I'm a 26 yo

> female.

>

> For years, I've known about my nada's psychological illnesses, but

> never sought to analyze them or understand them. Mostly, I've tried

> to avoid her, but realize now that there are numerous underlying

> issues i need to work out in order for me to be a fully satisfied

> human being. My father -- was diagnosed as schizophrenic and has not

> been functional since I was 8 (when my parents were divorced.) Sadly,

> I am an only child.

>

> For the life of me, I can't remember a single day of my childhood

> that wasnt tinged with abuse or anger. I've never had a single

> normal conversation (not even for 2 sentences!) with my nada. She was

> always harrassing me, abusing me, berating me, beating me down, and

> then taking it out with her fists when the angry words didn't sedate

> her. There were several times when the police came to our house and

> asked me if I was being abused, and asked me if i wanted to go to a

> foster home, but I always protected her (and me, because she was my

> only " family " ) and said no. I finally got out when I was 15, moving

> to my grandparent's house (not a happy situation either, but not so

> vicious).

>

> I've tried to maintain some contact with her over the years, but last

> year, discontinued all contact, because it's clear to me that she's

> never getting better. She has absolutely NO consciousness of what

> she does or how she behaves or anything. She's called the police on

> me several times (when I was in college home for break) to kick me

> out of the house, when I was dated raped, she called me a whore.

> Suffice it to say, she's one really evil person.

>

>

> But I do feel guilt and sorrow for the lack of relationship. Being an

> only child, I feel immense pressure to maintain contact. I feel bad

> for her, because she is so utterly clueless.

>

> Anyways, I'm here now, because these issues that linger in me, have

> hurt my own psyche, and I've not been able to escape my past / her

> pull, and it's had a detrimental affect on how i look at the world

> and relate to others. I've read many of the posts here, and I've

> found them to be extremely insightful.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I hear ya... loud and clear ... I also gave and gave and gave and

tried so hard to be " good " . Strangers were (and are)kinder to me than

my family is.

My brother flat out said he doesn't have the time or interest to

communicate

with me. He's mad because I don't " come home " . Home is not where my

brother and my parents are. It's with my wonderful husband and my

dogs and cats.

My parents don't call or write. I still send cards and small gifts to

remember their birthdays and holidays, and nice notes for no reason.

They don't even acknowledge that. Not good enough for them.

None of them care who I am. At a very deep level, that hurts a lot.

LouAnn

>I have had to rely on

> the kindness of strangers.

> Somehow none of my sisters will talk to me. They feel I abandoned

> them and also that I am evil for leaving the JW. They can't figure

> out who I am and don't seem to care to try.

> I gave every single bit of my soul to these people. I gave and gave

> and they had nothing to give back.

> I guess that's good for a start.

[Guest guest]

Dear tj,

I'm so sorry for all you've been through. You've come

to the right place for healing and validation. My

mother pulled some pretty awful things on me in my

life too. But your liver being enlarged 2x normal is

simply disgusting to me. How awful.

Don't worry about your siblings and not having their

validation. You have to start thinking about, taking

care of and validating yourself. These people are too

caught up in the cycle. I've been the scapegoat in my

family too. After years of being Cinderella, I got

nada myself.

Hugs to you and welcome.

Cyndie

--- tjtc55@... wrote:

> Hi, my mom has bpd and although I haven't lived with

> her for over 15

> years I am still suffering the effects of my

> childhood. I was the

> second of her six children and the oldest that she

> kept. She used me

> up and threw me away before I was 16. I had to be

> the man of the

> house, the husband, her friend, her counsellor, her

> financial

> advisor, the mother, housecleaner and spiritual

> representative. She

> decided the JW were right, but that she couldn't cut

> it so she forced

> me to become one and go to the Kingdom Hall at 10

> years of age. When

> I finally left her and the JW she condemned me and

> hasn't hardly had

> anything to do with me.

> I feel so much anger, bitterness and resentment. I

> gave up my

> childhood for nothing. I went to 39 elementry

> schools, we moved well

> over 100 times. I wasn't allowed to ever have

> friends, money or fun.

> Just pray and repent.

> She celebrated her own birthday and holidays and

> drank and partied a

> lot and did everything that I was not supposed to.

> My sisters are

> somehow seen as a lot weaker and were never expected

> to do anything

> like the amount of physical labour I was (I am

> female) and also were

> allowed to get away with not going to the KH and

> doing 'bad' things.

> I was not even allowed to be sick...which is why I

> left home, I ended

> up getting mononucleosis and she wouldn't let me

> rest. She said if

> you think you're on some kind of holiday you got

> another thing

> coming. She would get me up early and have me chop

> kindling and she

> worked me harder than ever. I got bronchitus and

> pneumonia and my

> liver was enlarged to twice the size so I was

> hospitalized. I had

> been crying for two days I was in so much pain and

> she kept hissing

> at me you make me sick, you think you know what pain

> is, you're such

> a baby etc...until finally she freaked out at me

> (she saw a tear roll

> down my cheek) and told me to get in the car and

> we'd go to the

> doctor and see just how sick i was. She never

> apologized and only saw

> me twice in the hospital, she told all the nurses

> and doctors that I

> was a compulsive liar and slut and had drug

> problems. I had never

> done ANYTHING i was like the virgin at that

> time. Each day the

> doctor would come in and question me about my

> supposed sexuality and

> drug abuse.

> I was sick for 6 mons and stuck at home with her all

> the time. She

> had no compassion for me. I was 15 and had spent my

> entire life

> taking care of her, regularily saving her from

> suicide, pleading with

> her to convince her she was good and beautiful and

> we loved her. I

> sacrificed everything for her and she had NOTHING

> for me. She would

> kick me and my sisters out of the house regularily

> too, she just

> expected you to come crawling back and beg to be let

> back in. After

> this sickness I really realized what a one way

> street this

> relationship was and so the next time she kicked me

> out I went to

> stay at a friends. She went to the elders of the JW

> and told them

> that I was trying to take advantage of these people.

> She went to

> Welfare and told them I was an unruly child and I

> might try to get

> into a foster home because I wanted to party all the

> time. I felt

> like I had nowhere to turn.

> I finally ran away. I ended up living on the streets

> of Vancouver, I

> never became a prostitute, but I sure had some hard

> times. Eventually

> I got a bartending job and found a roommate. I have

> had to rely on

> the kindness of strangers.

> Somehow none of my sisters will talk to me. They

> feel I abandoned

> them and also that I am evil for leaving the JW.

> They can't figure

> out who I am and don't seem to care to try.

> I gave every single bit of my soul to these people.

> I gave and gave

> and they had nothing to give back.

> I guess that's good for a start.

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Dear tj,

I'm so sorry for all you've been through. You've come

to the right place for healing and validation. My

mother pulled some pretty awful things on me in my

life too. But your liver being enlarged 2x normal is

simply disgusting to me. How awful.

Don't worry about your siblings and not having their

validation. You have to start thinking about, taking

care of and validating yourself. These people are too

caught up in the cycle. I've been the scapegoat in my

family too. After years of being Cinderella, I got

nada myself.

Hugs to you and welcome.

Cyndie

--- tjtc55@... wrote:

> Hi, my mom has bpd and although I haven't lived with

> her for over 15

> years I am still suffering the effects of my

> childhood. I was the

> second of her six children and the oldest that she

> kept. She used me

> up and threw me away before I was 16. I had to be

> the man of the

> house, the husband, her friend, her counsellor, her

> financial

> advisor, the mother, housecleaner and spiritual

> representative. She

> decided the JW were right, but that she couldn't cut

> it so she forced

> me to become one and go to the Kingdom Hall at 10

> years of age. When

> I finally left her and the JW she condemned me and

> hasn't hardly had

> anything to do with me.

> I feel so much anger, bitterness and resentment. I

> gave up my

> childhood for nothing. I went to 39 elementry

> schools, we moved well

> over 100 times. I wasn't allowed to ever have

> friends, money or fun.

> Just pray and repent.

> She celebrated her own birthday and holidays and

> drank and partied a

> lot and did everything that I was not supposed to.

> My sisters are

> somehow seen as a lot weaker and were never expected

> to do anything

> like the amount of physical labour I was (I am

> female) and also were

> allowed to get away with not going to the KH and

> doing 'bad' things.

> I was not even allowed to be sick...which is why I

> left home, I ended

> up getting mononucleosis and she wouldn't let me

> rest. She said if

> you think you're on some kind of holiday you got

> another thing

> coming. She would get me up early and have me chop

> kindling and she

> worked me harder than ever. I got bronchitus and

> pneumonia and my

> liver was enlarged to twice the size so I was

> hospitalized. I had

> been crying for two days I was in so much pain and

> she kept hissing

> at me you make me sick, you think you know what pain

> is, you're such

> a baby etc...until finally she freaked out at me

> (she saw a tear roll

> down my cheek) and told me to get in the car and

> we'd go to the

> doctor and see just how sick i was. She never

> apologized and only saw

> me twice in the hospital, she told all the nurses

> and doctors that I

> was a compulsive liar and slut and had drug

> problems. I had never

> done ANYTHING i was like the virgin at that

> time. Each day the

> doctor would come in and question me about my

> supposed sexuality and

> drug abuse.

> I was sick for 6 mons and stuck at home with her all

> the time. She

> had no compassion for me. I was 15 and had spent my

> entire life

> taking care of her, regularily saving her from

> suicide, pleading with

> her to convince her she was good and beautiful and

> we loved her. I

> sacrificed everything for her and she had NOTHING

> for me. She would

> kick me and my sisters out of the house regularily

> too, she just

> expected you to come crawling back and beg to be let

> back in. After

> this sickness I really realized what a one way

> street this

> relationship was and so the next time she kicked me

> out I went to

> stay at a friends. She went to the elders of the JW

> and told them

> that I was trying to take advantage of these people.

> She went to

> Welfare and told them I was an unruly child and I

> might try to get

> into a foster home because I wanted to party all the

> time. I felt

> like I had nowhere to turn.

> I finally ran away. I ended up living on the streets

> of Vancouver, I

> never became a prostitute, but I sure had some hard

> times. Eventually

> I got a bartending job and found a roommate. I have

> had to rely on

> the kindness of strangers.

> Somehow none of my sisters will talk to me. They

> feel I abandoned

> them and also that I am evil for leaving the JW.

> They can't figure

> out who I am and don't seem to care to try.

> I gave every single bit of my soul to these people.

> I gave and gave

> and they had nothing to give back.

> I guess that's good for a start.

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I'm sane and have the documentation to prove it.

on the other hand...

Lenny Yourth

Hubby to

Daddy to Elissa (6), LJ (5), (Almost 4), and (15 months)

is our Liss Kid. She can walk, run, and even slow down and turn as

well as stop. She can also hop, knows her ABC's and feeds herself about as

neatly as the lionesses on National Geographic.

Our AIM/YAHOO screen name is Yourthclan