Guest guest Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 That is quite the thought process there. I am not sure if I am going to be answering your question at all. I think that if the child is escaping by going across the room and then it takes several minutes to get the child back to the table, escape extinction clearly is not happening. One thing I have noticed is that during the escape behavior the child also receives reinforcement from the attention provided during the escape: nagging, prompting, and especially physical prompts. If those items are increasing the duration of the escape behavior and making the escape behavior more likely than the behavior is being positively reinforced.  I think it is important to look at the true function of the behavior. Is the child really trying to escape the task or does he enjoy the attention and physical interaction he receives when he escapes? Because you wouldn't even want to focus on escape extinction if it is more about the attention and physical interaction than the escape. In that type of situation, I have seen the escape behavior decrease more rapidly when the procedure used is planned ignoring (ignore the escape attempt) and task engagement (engage yourself with a somewhat preferred task until the child comes over on his own). Extinction is occurring through the planned ignoring but obviously not escape extinction. Then when the child comes over on his own to see what you are doing, you can use either behavior momentum and then present the original demand or present the original demand, either way you don't allow access to the item you were engaging with until the child complies with the original demand and a few other demands. I know it seems like you could reinforce the escape behavior by engaging with a preferred item but with all of the children that I have used this with whose escape behavior was maintained heavily by attention especially physical prompting, it has decreased the noncompliance/escape to almost zero. For the part about trying to maintain the demand by repeating the sd over and over and not allowing too much movement away from the original demand, I would not call that escape extinction. In that situation, bringing the demand to the person and prompting them through the demand would be escape extinction. Which of course is sometimes impossible or not safe with strong, bigger, or older clients. DeLeon, M.S., BCBA Navigation Behavioral Consulting " Navigating the world of behavior, changing the course of people's lives " www.navigationbehavioralconsulting.com blog.navigationbehavioralconsulting.com From: Schramm <knospeaba_robert@...> Subject: [ ] Escape Extinction VerbalBehavior , Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 6:51 PM  Here is another one. According to Jack in Concepts and Principles, True Escape extinctions means not allowing escape to occur. The question then becomes what is escape? If a child, starts to get up from the task and is physically stopped from getting up and is immediately either forced back through the task or immediately blocked and then chooses the task, this would be true escape extinction as I read the principle. However, that is not the only thing that is currently being called escape extinction. Often when a child attempts to escape, he is capable whether through speed, strength, or surprise to be able to get away from the task and in effect avoid it for several minutes and sometimes much longer. The act of keeping the demand on the child (usually by repeating the SD over and over and limiting his movement away from the task is also being called escape extinction). However, here is my problem with that. If a child gets up from a task and walks to the other side of the room and starts laughing and enjoying the teacher trying to get them to return (even if the the teacher begins some sort of nagging procedure immediately until the child decides to come back and finish the task). Can this really also be called escape extinction. Isn't escape extinction the process of not allowing escape behavior to be reinforced with escape? To me, this child has escaped the task and may remain in avoidance of the task for what can become a long period of time. In this instance, would it not be more appropriate to say the child has escaped the demand but that the escape behavior is now being punished with nagging. The fact that escape is now being punished by Nagging leading to the child's reduced use of escape in the future to me seems more of a positive punishment procedure than the escape extinction it is commonly being labelled. After all extinction is defined as not allowing a previously reinforced behavior to be reinforced. And Nagging a child is something that is added to the environment after the child has escaped. Does this discussion get anyone's gears a movin? Just curious what you think as the answer to this will have major effect on the way i label what we are doing with step 7 of instructional control (from my 7 - steps to instructional control) in the 2nd Edition of ETR I am currently working on. I Would love to hear the opinions on this and any support they can offer to those opinions from the BCBA's on this Group. Thanks in advance, ____________ _________ _________ ___ Schramm, MA, BCBA Author of Educate Toward Recovery: Turning the Tables on Autism www.lulu.com/ knospe-aba www.knospe-aba. com ____________ _________ _________ ___ " There is no greater testament to character than the selfless act designed to go unnoticed " ____________ _________ _________ __ From: " jwilson16comcast (DOT) net " <jwilson16comcast (DOT) net> Schramm <knospeaba_robert> Sent: Sat, November 14, 2009 1:18:25 AM Subject: Re: [ ] Re:differential reinforcement Differential Reinforcement: The occurrence of a reinforcement on a selected occasion as or after one topography of a performance as opposed to another topography, is called differential reinforcement. For example, one may differentially reinforce performances which exert a great deal of force on the lever as opposed to performances which operate it lightly. Ferster, C.B., & Perrot, M.C. (1968). Behavior Principles , BCABA [ ] Re:differential reinforcement Reg Reynolds Some consequences are likely to be more desirable, from the perspective of the person receiving them, and hence likely to be more reinforcing, than other consequences. Differential reinforcement refers to providing more desirable consequences for more desirable behaviours, e.g., for closer approximations to, or better performance of, the behaviour that you want the person to learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 , You are hitting exactly on my main point with these statements here: " I think it is important to look at the true function of the behavior. Is the child really trying to escape the task or does he enjoy the attention and physical interaction he receives when he escapes? Because you wouldn't even want to focus on escape extinction if it is more about the attention and physical interaction than the escape. In that type of situation, I have seen the escape behavior decrease more rapidly when the procedure used is planned ignoring (ignore the escape attempt) and task engagement (engage yourself with a somewhat preferred task until the child comes over on his own). Extinction is occurring through the planned ignoring but obviously not escape extinction. Then when the child comes over on his own to see what you are doing, you can use either behavior momentum and then present the original demand or present the original demand, either way you don't allow access to the item you were engaging with until the child complies with the original demand and a few other demands. " I think the point here is that the behavior, once the child has chosen to avoid the task is then often multiply controlled. Possibly by escape, possibly by the attention that comes after the escape. In my book, I talk about kids who often go back and forth from second to second between any possible purposes of behavior in an attempt to remain in the dominant role of the relationship as control kids. (This has gotten me about an equal amount of grief as it has praised in the community). Because if you identify the behavior as escape and you attempt to use escape extinction for any prolonged period of time, you often end up giving positive reinforcement to the escape behavior (like you stated above). And, I would argue, even if the nagging, continued attempt at escape extinction is not reinforcing and is working, it is more of a positive punishment procedure than extinction. Either way, you are either reinforcing the behavior and it is not working or you are using yourself as an aversive which may get the desired result but sets you up as the thing to be avoided killing your positive pairing and pairing you as an aversive stimulus. Back in 2006 when I wrote ETR, I discussed what you are talking about in your quote above (using planned ignoring of the escape attempt) instead of escape extinction in those instances. The reason is that in my institute's work with now over 200 kids we more often than not find it a more successful approach than basic escape extinction. Now, obviously this is not in the science anywhere yet so I am limited in my way of showing this to anyone, but the results are convincing in our work and we are hoping to be accepted at ABA in presenting case studies on this topic. The one thing you did not mention in your quote above that differs from our approach (and that in many cases would cause the procedure to fail) is the idea of comprehensive restriction of reinforcement (step 1 of the 7 steps to Instructional control). The idea is that if you can have comprehensive restriction of all forms of reinforcement in place whenever a child escapes, then you can put every behavior he uses in the post-escape condition on extinction. This (even more than just staying playing with the reinforcement that was originally available) will keep the child consistently coming back to you for reinforcement, giving you the chance to then repeat your original demand. For me this works much more consistently and often more quickly than traditional escape extinction... Especially when you are working with newly trained tudors or parents as implementors. The only caveat to this is if the child is willing to stay without reinforcement for a long enough period of time and that time period in extinction does not reduce fairly quickly, then you are likely looking at a child who is capable of making their own reinforcement during your attempted extinction. For these kids, blocking self-stim behavior or putting them into an even more restrictive time out setting (with supervision) for the amount of time it takes for the child to choose the task over this extinction condition might be called for. Again, for kids who do not respond to the planned extinction immediately, I have found that the time-out is not only easier for non-BCBA's to implement (when done safely and correctly) than the nagging type procedure. I also feel it has an added benefit, as it actually is extinction or in some cases negative punishment rather than positive punishment. By using Negative punishment (removal of stimuli from the child causing a reduction) you do not have to set yourself up as the aversive to be avoided. Instead you become the person the child needs to interact with to regain access to reinforcement. Because they are consistently motivated toward interaction you will have added access to them. This all seems to work together to cause the child to return to the original learning task in a manner that reduces quickly with subsequent trials while reducing the overall rate of escape as well. Funny that you are also seeing this as beneficial and are using it. But what are you calling it? In '06 I listed and described it in my 7 steps to instructional control in ETR, but I do not know of it as fleshed out anywhere else. I also know that I do not have research on it available in the literature yet. Are you aware of any studies or papers of support that discuss the benefit of analyzing the attention component that tends to occur after escape and that would lead you to the use of general extinction procedure (or planned ignoring as you called it) over a traditional escape extinction model of making yourself the aversive post escape? _________________________________ Schramm, MA, BCBA Author of Educate Toward Recovery: Turning the Tables on Autism www.lulu.com/knospe-aba www.knospe-aba.com _________________________________ " There is no greater testament to character than the selfless act designed to go unnoticed " ________________________________ From: megan deleon <deleonmegan@...> VerbalBehavior ; ; Schramm <knospeaba_robert@...> Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 5:08:44 AM Subject: Re: [ ] Escape Extinction That is quite the thought process there. I am not sure if I am going to be answering your question at all. I think that if the child is escaping by going across the room and then it takes several minutes to get the child back to the table, escape extinction clearly is not happening. One thing I have noticed is that during the escape behavior the child also receives reinforcement from the attention provided during the escape: nagging, prompting, and especially physical prompts. If those items are increasing the duration of the escape behavior and making the escape behavior more likely than the behavior is being positively reinforced. I think it is important to look at the true function of the behavior. Is the child really trying to escape the task or does he enjoy the attention and physical interaction he receives when he escapes? Because you wouldn't even want to focus on escape extinction if it is more about the attention and physical interaction than the escape. In that type of situation, I have seen the escape behavior decrease more rapidly when the procedure used is planned ignoring (ignore the escape attempt) and task engagement (engage yourself with a somewhat preferred task until the child comes over on his own). Extinction is occurring through the planned ignoring but obviously not escape extinction. Then when the child comes over on his own to see what you are doing, you can use either behavior momentum and then present the original demand or present the original demand, either way you don't allow access to the item you were engaging with until the child complies with the original demand and a few other demands. I know it seems like you could reinforce the escape behavior by engaging with a preferred item but with all of the children that I have used this with whose escape behavior was maintained heavily by attention especially physical prompting, it has decreased the noncompliance/escape to almost zero. For the part about trying to maintain the demand by repeating the sd over and over and not allowing too much movement away from the original demand, I would not call that escape extinction. In that situation, bringing the demand to the person and prompting them through the demand would be escape extinction. Which of course is sometimes impossible or not safe with strong, bigger, or older clients. DeLeon, M.S., BCBA Navigation Behavioral Consulting " Navigating the world of behavior, changing the course of people's lives " www.navigationbehavioralconsulting.com blog.navigationbehavioralconsulting.com >From: Schramm <knospeaba_robert@...> >Subject: [ ] Escape Extinction >VerbalBehavior , >Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 6:51 PM > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>Here is another one. > >>According to Jack in Concepts and Principles, True Escape extinctions means not allowing escape to occur. The question then becomes what is escape? If a child, starts to get up from the task and is physically stopped from getting up and is immediately either forced back through the task or immediately blocked and then chooses the task, this would be true escape extinction as I read the principle. > >>However, that is not the only thing that is currently being called escape extinction. Often when a child attempts to escape, he is capable whether through speed, strength, or surprise to be able to get away from the task and in effect avoid it for several minutes and sometimes much longer. The act of keeping the demand on the child (usually by repeating the SD over and over and limiting his movement away from the task is also being called escape extinction). > >>However, here is my problem with that. If a child gets up from a task and walks to the other side of the room and starts laughing and enjoying the teacher trying to get them to return (even if the the teacher begins some sort of nagging procedure immediately until the child decides to come back and finish the task). Can this really also be called escape extinction. Isn't escape extinction the process of not allowing escape behavior to be reinforced with escape? To me, this child has escaped the task and may remain in avoidance of the task for what can become a long period of time. In this instance, would it not be more appropriate to say the child has escaped the demand but that the escape behavior is now being punished with nagging. The fact that escape is now being punished by Nagging leading to the child's reduced use of escape in the future to me seems more of a positive punishment procedure than the escape extinction it is commonly being >> labelled. > >>After all extinction is defined as not allowing a previously reinforced behavior to be reinforced. And Nagging a child is something that is added to the environment after the child has escaped. > >>Does this discussion get anyone's gears a movin? > >>Just curious what you think as the answer to this will have major effect on the way i label what we are doing with step 7 of instructional control (from my 7 - steps to instructional control) in the 2nd Edition of ETR I am currently working on. > >>I Would love to hear the opinions on this and any support they can offer to those opinions from the BCBA's on this Group. > >>Thanks in advance, > >> > >>____________ _________ _________ ___ >> Schramm, MA, BCBA >>Author of Educate Toward Recovery: >>Turning the Tables on Autism >www.lulu.com/ knospe-aba >>www.knospe-aba. com >>____________ _________ _________ ___ > >> " There is no greater testament to character than >>the selfless act designed to go unnoticed " > >>____________ _________ _________ __ >>From: " jwilson16comcast (DOT) net " <jwilson16comcast (DOT) net> >> Schramm <knospeaba_robert> >>Sent: Sat, November 14, 2009 1:18:25 AM >>Subject: Re: [ ] Re:differential reinforcement > >>Differential Reinforcement: The occurrence of a reinforcement on a selected occasion as or after one topography of a performance as opposed to another topography, is called differential reinforcement. For example, one may differentially reinforce performances which exert a great deal of force on the lever as opposed to performances which operate it lightly. > >>Ferster, C.B., & Perrot, M.C. (1968). Behavior Principles > >> , BCABA > >> [ ] Re:differential reinforcement > >>Reg Reynolds > >>Some consequences are likely to be more desirable, from the perspective of the person receiving them, and hence likely to be more reinforcing, than other consequences. Differential reinforcement refers to providing more desirable consequences for more desirable behaviours, e.g., for closer approximations to, or better performance of, the behaviour that you want the person to learn. > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 , I am answering from my phone so my response might not be that well developed. I agre with you on the punishment point. During the escape extinction if the " battle " goes on for a bit, you become aversive and punishing. For children that try to resist the demand heavily, I typically have the therapists follow through with the original demand if possible and then prevent access to all items (the timeout you described where the therapist has all of the really fun stuff but the child is not allowed to access anything ) until the child returns or calms enough to prompt through the demand. I have not seen research on this either. When I was in graduate school I did a brief FA with a client where I analyzed which condition: standard escape extinction, planned ignoring, planned ignoring with time out from items, planned ignoring with time out from items and engaging yourself with items. The client's noncompliance/escape behavior was lowest in the last condition. Since then I have only used it with a few other clients based on using the same analysis when necessary. I came up with the idea from reading an article in class about setting up FA conditions differently than the standard alone, play, demand, tangibles, and attention. I happy to hear that it has been successful with your clients as well. I hope that you are successful in presenting at ABA so others can learn about it as well. I don't currently call it anything. I usually refer to it as planned ignoring + redirection + blocking from access to tangibles. Have a good day - Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry Re: [ ] Re:differential reinforcement > >>Differential Reinforcement: The occurrence of a reinforcement on a selected occasion as or after one topography of a performance as opposed to another topography, is called differential reinforcement. For example, one may differentially reinforce performances which exert a great deal of force on the lever as opposed to performances which operate it lightly. > >>Ferster, C.B., & Perrot, M.C. (1968). Behavior Principles > >> , BCABA > >> [ ] Re:differential reinforcement > >>Reg Reynolds > >>Some consequences are likely to be more desirable, from the perspective of the person receiving them, and hence likely to be more reinforcing, than other consequences. Differential reinforcement refers to providing more desirable consequences for more desirable behaviours, e.g., for closer approximations to, or better performance of, the behaviour that you want the person to learn. > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 Hello and All, I gather we are only or mostly about talking to (communicating with, of communication being a two-way ++ + street?) " BCBAers " or the like (of the more professional and political, of that sort of, family? dare I say? of language being the thing, Thereof?) and not so much for our students/correspondents and others, (of the greater reason, of communication itself, perhaps?) Thereof? or would that be " otherwise? " .. . [Of] A choice, of Communication, of how it's done, Thereof?!. [Of] My sense of It.. . For what you more directly get out of it? where The choice is y/ours, Thereof? of Feeling as understanding? (Let us more than hope?) Think of it as stimulus conditioning (the primary if not essential stimulus conditioning, of Nurturing? Understanding? for what you're about?) if you will, on how I try to get my operant conditioning going, of supporting the function of representing ourselves, Thereof! (for whatever that's worth? to you, perhaps, of The facts? of the primary facts? .. . Don't post where my question gets answered, perhaps, but I really don't need a lot more time with this... of somewhat being directed to answer more meaningful and less theoretical (strictly interpretive?) questions? if you know what I mean, where you would want to know what I mean? .. . of my interpretation of all that based on my framework (Understanding) of such things.. . Best wishes, of " my " understanding more by as much! (If that's OK by you?) of Communication (beyond programming? otherwise?) either way of your answering me or not (as you would think? by as much? .. . Here's more than hoping so in that respect of what you think, of what I Feel as understand, Thereof! It see It happening (and more hopefully, tell It like It is, Thereof I prefer a language that accomodates that if not describes it for what It is, in advancing as much, (of what you Feel by It?) if you know what I mean, where you want to of Course, in being about as much, of Understanding More, Thereof. Best wishes in that respect. Glavic > > > > Here is another one. > > According to Jack in Concepts and Principles, True Escape extinctions means not allowing escape to occur. The question then becomes what is escape? If a child, starts to get up from the task and is physically stopped from getting up and is immediately either forced back through the task or immediately blocked and then chooses the task, this would be true escape extinction as I read the principle. > > However, that is not the only thing that is currently being called escape extinction. Often when a child attempts to escape, he is capable whether through speed, strength, or surprise to be able to get away from the task and in effect avoid it for several minutes and sometimes much longer. The act of keeping the demand on the child (usually by repeating the SD over and over and limiting his movement away from the task is also being called escape extinction). > > However, here is my problem with that. If a child gets up from a task and walks to the other side of the room and starts laughing and enjoying the teacher trying to get them to return (even if the the teacher begins some sort of nagging procedure immediately until the child decides to come back and finish the task). Can this really also be called escape extinction. Isn't escape extinction the process of not allowing escape behavior to be reinforced with escape? To me, this child has escaped the task and may remain in avoidance of the task for what can become a long period of time. In this instance, would it not be more appropriate to say the child has escaped the demand but that the escape behavior is now being punished with nagging. The fact that escape is now being punished by Nagging leading to the child's reduced use of escape in the future to me seems more of a positive punishment procedure than the escape extinction it is commonly being > labelled. > > After all extinction is defined as not allowing a previously reinforced behavior to be reinforced. And Nagging a child is something that is added to the environment after the child has escaped. > > Does this discussion get anyone's gears a movin? > > Just curious what you think as the answer to this will have major effect on the way i label what we are doing with step 7 of instructional control (from my 7 - steps to instructional control) in the 2nd Edition of ETR I am currently working on. > > I Would love to hear the opinions on this and any support they can offer to those opinions from the BCBA's on this Group. > > Thanks in advance, > > > > _________________________________ > Schramm, MA, BCBA > Author of Educate Toward Recovery: > Turning the Tables on Autism > www.lulu.com/knospe-aba > www.knospe-aba.com > _________________________________ > > " There is no greater testament to character than > the selfless act designed to go unnoticed " > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: " jwilson16@... " <jwilson16@...> > Schramm <knospeaba_robert@...> > Sent: Sat, November 14, 2009 1:18:25 AM > Subject: Re: [ ] Re:differential reinforcement > > > Differential Reinforcement: The occurrence of a reinforcement on a selected occasion as or after one topography of a performance as opposed to another topography, is called differential reinforcement. For example, one may differentially reinforce performances which exert a great deal of force on the lever as opposed to performances which operate it lightly. > > Ferster, C.B., & Perrot, M.C. (1968). Behavior Principles > > , BCABA > > [ ] Re:differential reinforcement > > Reg Reynolds > > Some consequences are likely to be more desirable, from the perspective of the person receiving them, and hence likely to be more reinforcing, than other consequences. Differential reinforcement refers to providing more desirable consequences for more desirable behaviours, e.g., for closer approximations to, or better performance of, the behaviour that you want the person to learn. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 I have a client whose behavioral function has been identified as escape by the MAS and an FBA. But she she is not escaping a DTT situation or even running away. Her escape behavior is refusal. In particular, she refused to get off the van that transports her to school. The refusal is most often at her group home (where some of the staff are grumpy and impatient) but it also occurs at school with much better staff. On Friday morning, she sat on the van for 1 1/2 hours with her hands over her eyes. Staff tried the recommended intervention--behavior momentum--to no avail. Behavior momentum and a fun morning routine have been quite successful in the past. This is a 22 year old moderately mentally retarded young women. Autism is not on her official diagnosis but she presents as being on the spectrum. She also has frequent seizures and is unsteady on her feet. Since she is an adult, we are much more limited in ways to deal with this behavior--we not allowed to move an adult force ably. Just leaving her to sit on the van alone has been somewhat successful in the past but we are being told that we cannot do that when it is cold. Does anyone have any ideas for putting this on extinction? RF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Hi (Just an option? Just reason with her as of Communication, (of trying to grasp and respond to the feedback of that, of your analysis to as much? of also especially projecting the more meaningful feeling/s of the truth, Thereof, of Communication, of understanding more from as much, of your intuition even if not especially?) of individualizing things for as much, of understanding as much for y/our selves, Thereof, (of Communication) I would recommend This isn't about teaching a language (so much) but of (as for) Communication for what exist beyond that, and for the more meaningful language (and learning, of an exchange, as related to our feeling/s?) Thereof? .. . She might want to be treated more intelligently and considerately in that respect? You might be surprised? I always go with the more considerate and cognitive (reasonable?) approach first, before I assume otherwise and act accordingly, as with programming (vs communication? towards Communication, Thereof) I mean, by as much You should perhaps better grasp what you need by as much? (of trying to understand the other towards teaching the other? of being so considerate) of the analysis of communication trumps the analysis of behavior, I'd be thinking.. . Where we wouldn't be acknowledging communication, (of what the other feels, as means?) and behavior as communication in analyzing it, what would that say about our ability to analyze behavior in more reasonably shaping it? .. . Best wishes, Thereof. " There's " more than hoping so, by as much, is my sense of it. I more than hope that helps, of " stimulus conditioning, " (actually?) if you will (for the operant condition you seek? Give her the answer, in teaching it? and rewarding it? .. . Here's my hope for as much. Glavic Show me a place where there is justness, and I'll go there, of Knowing It when I Feel It, perhaps? .. . BWT. > > I have a client whose behavioral function has been identified as escape > by the MAS and an FBA. But she she is not escaping a DTT situation or > even running away. Her escape behavior is refusal. In particular, she > refused to get off the van that transports her to school. The refusal > is most often at her group home (where some of the staff are grumpy and > impatient) but it also occurs at school with much better staff. On > Friday morning, she sat on the van for 1 1/2 hours with her hands over > her eyes. Staff tried the recommended intervention--behavior > momentum--to no avail. Behavior momentum and a fun morning routine have > been quite successful in the past. This is a 22 year old moderately > mentally retarded young women. Autism is not on her official diagnosis > but she presents as being on the spectrum. She also has frequent > seizures and is unsteady on her feet. Since she is an adult, we are much > more limited in ways to deal with this behavior--we not allowed to move > an adult force ably. Just leaving her to sit on the van alone has been > somewhat successful in the past but we are being told that we cannot do > that when it is cold. Does anyone have any ideas for putting this on > extinction? > RF > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Can you do any form of token reinforcement for compliance and response cost for not complying? Have you tried what and I have talked about where you ignore the escape and engage with a task while blocking her from engaging with anything and then when shows interest in what you are doing, have her comply before she can access the item you are engaging with? Based on your description, it sounds like she might be escaping the tasks for the attention she receives while escaping. I would also suggest a thick schedule of non contingent attention and an assessment to determine whether attention is maintaining the behavior. There is also a study in JABA where they analyzed phrasing of the command as a question compared to as a statement and the girl responded beter when it was presented as a question. When analyzing her escape attempts you might want to look at if how you present the demand as an influence on her likelihood to attempt to escape. - Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry Re: [ ] Escape Extinction I have a client whose behavioral function has been identified as escape by the MAS and an FBA. But she she is not escaping a DTT situation or even running away. Her escape behavior is refusal. In particular, she refused to get off the van that transports her to school. The refusal is most often at her group home (where some of the staff are grumpy and impatient) but it also occurs at school with much better staff. On Friday morning, she sat on the van for 1 1/2 hours with her hands over her eyes. Staff tried the recommended intervention--behavior momentum--to no avail. Behavior momentum and a fun morning routine have been quite successful in the past. This is a 22 year old moderately mentally retarded young women. Autism is not on her official diagnosis but she presents as being on the spectrum. She also has frequent seizures and is unsteady on her feet. Since she is an adult, we are much more limited in ways to deal with this behavior--we not allowed to move an adult force ably. Just leaving her to sit on the van alone has been somewhat successful in the past but we are being told that we cannot do that when it is cold. Does anyone have any ideas for putting this on extinction? RF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Hi everyone, Please know when I ask a question like this it is because I do not know the answer. I know enough to know how to use the principles of behavior in effective ways but sometimes there are still what seem to be gaping holes in my knowledge. Exactly what makes something escape extinction vs. Pos. punishment after escape is a legitimate question that I have. The label for using differing amounts of reinforcement for differing levels of reinforcement is another. I am really not trying to invent terms or trying to reinvent the wheel here. I understand that this wheel has been rolling very well for a long time before I started riding along. What I have been hearing is that it is not so important what you are doing (procedurally) but what the result is that makes something extinction vs. Punishment. This still confuses me as the definitions of punishment and extinction is what I have always used to decide if something is or is not one or the other rather than the result. Again, when I come to these groups with this sort of question, I am just trying to find out if there is anyone who can help me get a correct answer for these issues that still complicate my thinking and ability to best utilize ABA with our students. I do not have a strong mentor in the field to go to and I am on a bit of an island out here in Germany, doing my very best. I have used these groups as a connection for information when I have needed it and have tried to offer my thoughts when I had something (I hope) useful to say. I think there is a lot of value here for people like me. I just wish I knew where to go for definitive answers on questions like this. I can always go to the principles and definitions but often I find that this does not lead me to the answers I need. I kind of wish there was someone with all the answers that I could get on my speed dial. _________________________________ Schramm, MA, BCBA Author of Educate Toward Recovery: Turning the Tables on Autism www.lulu.com/knospe-aba www.knospe-aba.com _________________________________ " There is no greater testament to character than the selfless act designed to go unnoticed " ________________________________ From: " deleonmegan@... " <deleonmegan@...> J R <luvsbt@...>; Cc: VerbalBehavior Sent: Tue, November 17, 2009 5:29:29 PM Subject: Re: [ ] Escape Extinction Can you do any form of token reinforcement for compliance and response cost for not complying? Have you tried what and I have talked about where you ignore the escape and engage with a task while blocking her from engaging with anything and then when shows interest in what you are doing, have her comply before she can access the item you are engaging with? Based on your description, it sounds like she might be escaping the tasks for the attention she receives while escaping. I would also suggest a thick schedule of non contingent attention and an assessment to determine whether attention is maintaining the behavior. There is also a study in JABA where they analyzed phrasing of the command as a question compared to as a statement and the girl responded beter when it was presented as a question. When analyzing her escape attempts you might want to look at if how you present the demand as an influence on her likelihood to attempt to escape. - Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry Re: [ ] Escape Extinction I have a client whose behavioral function has been identified as escape by the MAS and an FBA. But she she is not escaping a DTT situation or even running away. Her escape behavior is refusal. In particular, she refused to get off the van that transports her to school. The refusal is most often at her group home (where some of the staff are grumpy and impatient) but it also occurs at school with much better staff. On Friday morning, she sat on the van for 1 1/2 hours with her hands over her eyes. Staff tried the recommended intervention- -behavior momentum--to no avail. Behavior momentum and a fun morning routine have been quite successful in the past. This is a 22 year old moderately mentally retarded young women. Autism is not on her official diagnosis but she presents as being on the spectrum. She also has frequent seizures and is unsteady on her feet. Since she is an adult, we are much more limited in ways to deal with this behavior--we not allowed to move an adult force ably. Just leaving her to sit on the van alone has been somewhat successful in the past but we are being told that we cannot do that when it is cold. Does anyone have any ideas for putting this on extinction? RF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Ok so I refreshed my memory on the terminology related to Time out and I am thinking the best description for this procedure would be Non exclusionary (keeping the child in the setting) time out from positive reinforcement. explains that there are four ways to do this: Planned Ignoring, Contingent Observation, a time out ribbon, and withdrawl of a specific reinforcer. It seems to me that what and I have been describing would be the planned ignoring and contingent observation (having them watch us engage with the item but not allowing them to engage until they comply). What do you think? DeLeon, M.S., BCBA Navigation Behavioral Consulting " Navigating the world of behavior, changing the course of people's lives " www.navigationbehavioralconsulting.com blog.navigationbehavioralconsulting.com From: Schramm <knospeaba_robert@...> Subject: Re: [ ] Escape Extinction Cc: VerbalBehavior Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 7:52 AM Â Hi everyone, Please know when I ask a question like this it is because I do not know the answer. I know enough to know how to use the principles of behavior in effective ways but sometimes there are still what seem to be gaping holes in my knowledge. Exactly what makes something escape extinction vs. Pos. punishment after escape is a legitimate question that I have. The label for using differing amounts of reinforcement for differing levels of reinforcement is another. I am really not trying to invent terms or trying to reinvent the wheel here. I understand that this wheel has been rolling very well for a long time before I started riding along. What I have been hearing is that it is not so important what you are doing (procedurally) but what the result is that makes something extinction vs. Punishment. This still confuses me as the definitions of punishment and extinction is what I have always used to decide if something is or is not one or the other rather than the result. Again, when I come to these groups with this sort of question, I am just trying to find out if there is anyone who can help me get a correct answer for these issues that still complicate my thinking and ability to best utilize ABA with our students. I do not have a strong mentor in the field to go to and I am on a bit of an island out here in Germany, doing my very best. I have used these groups as a connection for information when I have needed it and have tried to offer my thoughts when I had something (I hope) useful to say. I think there is a lot of value here for people like me. I just wish I knew where to go for definitive answers on questions like this. I can always go to the principles and definitions but often I find that this does not lead me to the answers I need. I kind of wish there was someone with all the answers that I could get on my speed dial. ____________ _________ _________ ___ Schramm, MA, BCBA Author of Educate Toward Recovery: Turning the Tables on Autism www.lulu.com/ knospe-aba www.knospe-aba. com ____________ _________ _________ ___ " There is no greater testament to character than the selfless act designed to go unnoticed " ____________ _________ _________ __ From: " deleonmegan " <deleonmegan> J R <luvsbtearthlink (DOT) net>; @groups .com Cc: VerbalBehavior Sent: Tue, November 17, 2009 5:29:29 PM Subject: Re: [ ] Escape Extinction Can you do any form of token reinforcement for compliance and response cost for not complying? Have you tried what and I have talked about where you ignore the escape and engage with a task while blocking her from engaging with anything and then when shows interest in what you are doing, have her comply before she can access the item you are engaging with? Based on your description, it sounds like she might be escaping the tasks for the attention she receives while escaping. I would also suggest a thick schedule of non contingent attention and an assessment to determine whether attention is maintaining the behavior. There is also a study in JABA where they analyzed phrasing of the command as a question compared to as a statement and the girl responded beter when it was presented as a question. When analyzing her escape attempts you might want to look at if how you present the demand as an influence on her likelihood to attempt to escape. - Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry Re: [ ] Escape Extinction I have a client whose behavioral function has been identified as escape by the MAS and an FBA. But she she is not escaping a DTT situation or even running away. Her escape behavior is refusal. In particular, she refused to get off the van that transports her to school. The refusal is most often at her group home (where some of the staff are grumpy and impatient) but it also occurs at school with much better staff. On Friday morning, she sat on the van for 1 1/2 hours with her hands over her eyes. Staff tried the recommended intervention- -behavior momentum--to no avail. Behavior momentum and a fun morning routine have been quite successful in the past. This is a 22 year old moderately mentally retarded young women. Autism is not on her official diagnosis but she presents as being on the spectrum. She also has frequent seizures and is unsteady on her feet. Since she is an adult, we are much more limited in ways to deal with this behavior--we not allowed to move an adult force ably. Just leaving her to sit on the van alone has been somewhat successful in the past but we are being told that we cannot do that when it is cold. Does anyone have any ideas for putting this on extinction? RF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 Hi and , and All, I'm not aware of how limits things, relative to understanding more? ... but I would interject that relative to reinforcement, extinction is punishing, but relative to punishment, extinction would be reinforcing! (so it's like a " zero, " somewhat? as in mathematics?) so what is your framework/where are you at with it? if that helps? where you wanted to more than just know as much, perhaps (Where I would prefer to " understand " more than to just know, whatever, and that trumps as much? of ABA for the more meaningful behavior, Thereof? .. . Think of it as based on my " interests, " please do, where they converge with yours, I'm more than hoping, Thereof? Now that we are on the same page with respect to differentially reinforcing communication? (or even language, developing language?) and the rule of understanding more (my concept, of being that far it! of what we are aspiring to?)(of the *real* law, insider trading and not prioritizing justice that justice would be thing thing? relative to " abuse, " aside? (of the only thing we should be punishing or extinguishing? that we should be punishing or extinguishing? once we better understand that dichotomy? of differential punishment perhaps?) otherwise? of me feeling that ABA and understanding parallels being " just! " Thereof (beyond the zero? of knowing zero?) as with this? as to that? perhaps? of the more meangingful behavior we aspire to? Of, here's more than hoping so?!.) I Feel we should be OK with that/this, relative to as much... of my framework of Understanding, I mean, as towards the analysis of Communication, I mean, by presenting as much as I Feel, as Understand! It's my response to your question! where I don't feel you're being abusive by asking it. Hopefully you don't feel this is abusive by my responding to it and saying so.. . I would say that planned ignoring would not be in the spirit of communication (or the rule of law? a rule of law that prioritizes justness as the thing, with respect to communication and our interests, I mean). What you don't give the other (that is yours to give) until they comply would be relative to what you were expecting them to comply with? I wouldn't expect the other to comly with bad behavior (ignoring attempts to communicate, of the other's interests? where not abusive of behavior that perhaps needs better classification, than what we don't understand as a feeling, of not so much trying for that, perhaps?) and would call it abusive in dealing with it.. . (as I more and more am becoming known to be doing?!. The compensation would be nice?!. Some things you need to take a stand on?!. to reinforce as much is my sense of It, of leadership if not principle, of the evidence That's perhaps where I have taken my ABA in merging ABA with " justness " where with me being just (as with this? as where things like this are differentially reinforced as with respect to Communication, I'd say, of what my ABA is about) would be the more meaningful thing to be, to me! You might be right though, relative to what is about, I don't know, my knowledge being more understanding more for my self oriented, Thereof, if you know what I mean, of my not wanting to know more about so much (but about you, that'd be OK! forgetting for the moment, unless you have something more meaningful to say about him?) relative to other things, more meaningful things to me to more practical situations, (demanding issues, of the inner works, of the sensory perhaps even if not especially?) now that we have grasped the relative nature of things like differential reinforcement and extinction, towards applying it, Thereof doesn't sound like someone I would want to focus on in that respect of my priorities, but that would be just " me " on that of where I would want to go with it, I mean. I expect might have something to say about it, of how relevant would be to him, perhaps (to any of us?) relative to how far we have come otherwise, perhaps? Perhaps I'm wondering if anyone else has said or understood as much by saying so? That would be nice to find! of as friendship or social in that respect? Here's more than hoping so, where your openness and understanding more contributes as much to me I'm thinking that if there was individual justness (that there should be any other kind? and what would there be more meaningful to be about where we would be so just at all? of, where we are not " primarily " for justice, individual justice, in what we are about we are not so just as we think?) there would be no " social " injustice, of bad things going on, (either) so my bent (of ABA/J? of working towards individual justice and rights, and everything actually) does in fact seem to be moving against the grain, of politics otherwise, perhaps, I Feel as understand, of, so much for " me " perhaps? I figure I'm picking everything else for my self, so, why not my end, Thereof? isn't so much a question for me, anymore.. . Where you wanted to know? I hope it answered your question in some way, of how many aspects there are to a question, perhaps, for understanding more for our selves? surely.. (Remains to be seem, perhaps, as far as " you're " concerned, and understanding, of your behavior and practice, of Course Best wishes, Thereof Mike, I ABA/J ABA for Understanding More I'm not at all sure I want to be in a world otherwise, of doing what I do?!. (That others don't do or are about, so much, of how I end, Thereof Talk about taking It all the way?!. Hey, some people die for their country I'm actually having a reasonably good time at the moment, especially thanks to us, of as much, where you are, of as much, of Feeling as understanding, for all there is, Thereof, of Communication?!. My sense of It, of the primary facts of the primary research of the primary thing(s), Thereof I Feel I'm developing our " senses " by as much, and where we can sense more we can be more, Thereof, I Feel as understand, of as much.. . In that respect what's worth living for is worth dying for for me. I haven't been disappointed so far, with It, of ABA, Thereof? Where you would hope and expect for as much for ABA, I'd be Feeling (and behaving/acting accordingly) as I do, of Understanding More BWT. > > From: Schramm <knospeaba_robert@...> > Subject: Re: [ ] Escape Extinction > > Cc: VerbalBehavior > Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 7:52 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > Please know when I ask a question like this it is because I do not know the answer. I know enough to know how to use the principles of behavior in effective ways but sometimes there are still what seem to be gaping holes in my knowledge. Exactly what makes something escape extinction vs. Pos. punishment after escape is a legitimate question that I have. The label for using differing amounts of reinforcement for differing levels of reinforcement is another. I am really not trying to invent terms or trying to reinvent the wheel here. I understand that this wheel has been rolling very well for a long time before I started riding along. > > > > What I have been hearing is that it is not so important what you are doing (procedurally) but what the result is that makes something extinction vs. Punishment. This still confuses me as the definitions of punishment and extinction is what I have always used to decide if something is or is not one or the other rather than the result. Again, when I come to these groups with this sort of question, I am just trying to find out if there is anyone who can help me get a correct answer for these issues that still complicate my thinking and ability to best utilize ABA with our students. I do not have a strong mentor in the field to go to and I am on a bit of an island out here in Germany, doing my very best. > > > > I have used these groups as a connection for information when I have needed it and have tried to offer my thoughts when I had something (I hope) useful to say. I think there is a lot of value here for people like me. I just wish I knew where to go for definitive answers on questions like this. I can always go to the principles and definitions but often I find that this does not lead me to the answers I need. > > > > I kind of wish there was someone with all the answers that I could get on my speed dial. > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ ___ > > Schramm, MA, BCBA > > Author of Educate Toward Recovery: > > Turning the Tables on Autism > > www.lulu.com/ knospe-aba > > www.knospe-aba. com > > ____________ _________ _________ ___ > > > > " There is no greater testament to character than > > the selfless act designed to go unnoticed " > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > From: " deleonmegan " <deleonmegan> > > J R <luvsbtearthlink (DOT) net>; @groups .com > > Cc: VerbalBehavior > > Sent: Tue, November 17, 2009 5:29:29 PM > > Subject: Re: [ ] Escape Extinction > > > > Can you do any form of token reinforcement for compliance and response cost for not complying? Have you tried what and I have talked about where you ignore the escape and engage with a task while blocking her from engaging with anything and then when shows interest in what you are doing, have her comply before she can access the item you are engaging with? Based on your description, it sounds like she might be escaping the tasks for the attention she receives while escaping. I would also suggest a thick schedule of non contingent attention and an assessment to determine whether attention is maintaining the behavior. > > There is also a study in JABA where they analyzed phrasing of the command as a question compared to as a statement and the girl responded beter when it was presented as a question. When analyzing her escape attempts you might want to look at if how you present the demand as an influence on her likelihood to attempt to escape. > > > > - > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > Re: [ ] Escape Extinction > > > > I have a client whose behavioral function has been identified as escape > > by the MAS and an FBA. But she she is not escaping a DTT situation or > > even running away. Her escape behavior is refusal. In particular, she > > refused to get off the van that transports her to school. The refusal > > is most often at her group home (where some of the staff are grumpy and > > impatient) but it also occurs at school with much better staff. On > > Friday morning, she sat on the van for 1 1/2 hours with her hands over > > her eyes. Staff tried the recommended intervention- -behavior > > momentum--to no avail. Behavior momentum and a fun morning routine have > > been quite successful in the past. This is a 22 year old moderately > > mentally retarded young women. Autism is not on her official diagnosis > > but she presents as being on the spectrum. She also has frequent > > seizures and is unsteady on her feet. Since she is an adult, we are much > > more limited in ways to deal with this behavior--we not allowed to move > > an adult force ably. Just leaving her to sit on the van alone has been > > somewhat successful in the past but we are being told that we cannot do > > that when it is cold. Does anyone have any ideas for putting this on > > extinction? > > RF > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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