Re: The Whole Black Hole Thing

[Guest guest]

Good explanations.

There are many theories about black holes and just how they do what they do, but I won't go into them here. From what I have seen though, material can be pulled in from all directions. However, in space when this happens, the material still seems to form into an accretion disk around the "equator" of the black hole, based on how the black hole rotates. It is then absorbed (just how varies with the different theories) with some material streaming out from the poles at very high temperature and velocity.

In a message dated 9/22/2008 1:21:14 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, no_reply writes:

Just want to add that things may have gotten lost in translation as I've written out what my friend told me. If there are any faults in anything I've written, they are mine. Not his. AdministratorLooking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators.

[Guest guest]

Bear in mind that I'm not a physicist and get what I know from reading and watching programs on astronomy and the physics behind it.

First, there is the anatomy of a black hole, from the outside in.

Outermost is the gravity field. Consider this like a warp in space/time, just like the everything else. You can visualize this as the universe being a sheet stretched over a frame. If you place an object on the sheet, it will cause an indentation. That indentation is the gravity well of the object. The greater the mass the greater the distortion. Just because something hits a black hole's gravity influence doesn't mean it will be pulled in immediately. Like other more mundane objects, whatever passes by will have its path altered by the gravity. If it was coming in sharply enough, it will get pulled right in, otherwise it might be nudged into an orbit around the black hole or, if it was moving fast enough, be flung off into space again.

The next thing would depend entirely on what the black hole is doing. If the black hole is "feeding," the material will be orbiting very closely around the black hole. Since black holes seem to rotate just like everything else we have observed, that material will probably be in an accretion disk around the equator. This depends on course on the size of the object. Something like a comet would probably be gobbled right up, but a star would probably be being stripped of its layers before rather than an actual core on collision with the black hole, and those layers would make a disk.

Beyond the disk is the first mystery: the Event Horizon. The old theories were that this was the point of no return. Anything that reached this point would fall into the black hole and be lost forever. Never theories state that by the time you even neared the event horizon, you would be stretched by the gravity like a piece of spaghetti. That is, if you were falling feet first, your feet would experience greater gravity than your head and so would be pulled "harder" and so would begin to fall faster than your head. This would continue and get worse over time until the very atoms would be pulled apart. Related to this theory is that temperature would also increase so you'd be getting fried too. We don't know about the spaghetti thing, but we do know that the temperature aspect seems to be real based on observations.

Other new theories state that maybe nothing actually falls through the event horizon but rather material is smeared across it, becoming "information" rather than matter as we normally think of it.

Inside the event horizon is a complete mystery. As far as we know, nothing except the theoretical Hawking Radiation (I don't think that has been proven), comes back out. Interestingly, the danger of all this gravity seems to have an inverse relationship to the black hole's mass. The more massive the black hole, the further the event horizon is from the center and the less dangerous. This theory states that with a very, very massive black hole, it might even be possible to cross the event horizon and come back out, but that would take an amazingly huge black hole.

The center of the black hole is the singularity. This is the point of ultimate gravity where everything is crushed down into a form we can't understand. Just what it is and what it is doing we don't know. Some think it is a gateway to another universe or to other parts of this universe. Others just think that it is like the ultimate landfill where things end up buried forever.

The next to the last thing that I will mention is that black holes seem to have a relationship to galaxy formation. At the center of most, if not all Galaxies is a supermassive black hole. The black holes average around 0.5% of the total mass of the galaxy and are probably responsible for the entire galaxy rotating at the same speed, when according to regular physics, the center of a galaxy should be rotating faster than the outer rim. There also seems to be a dead zone around most of the black holes. This is probably caused because when a black hole feeds, it sends out radiation. That radiation would provide an outward pressure which, over time, would push material out of the reach of the black hole and it would stop feeding. The black hole at the center of the Milky Way seems to be in such a quiet phase. However, there are a number of stars orbiting around it and it is only a matter of time before one gets too close and the black hole feeds on it.

Lastly, there is a theory that black holes do evaporate. Eventually, trillions of years from now when the universe has expanded to nothingness and the protons are all decayed, the black holes will slowly vanish too. A theory does state that maybe one of these black holes or one of the last protons might do something very unusual. That object might explode in such a way that it alters the nature of the universe itself. In other words, it could be the next big bang.

I personally would like to hear such, I find black holes and theories on such fascinating.Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators.

[Guest guest]

Just want to add that things may have gotten lost in translation as

I've written out what my friend told me. If there are any faults in

anything I've written, they are mine. Not his.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

" There are many theories about black holes and just how they do what

they do, but I won't go into them here. "

I personally would like to hear such, I find black holes and theories

on such fascinating.

>

> Good explanations.

>

> There are many theories about black holes and just how they do what

they do,

> but I won't go into them here. From what I have seen though,

material can be

> pulled in from all directions. However, in space when this happens,

the

> material still seems to form into an accretion disk around

the " equator " of the

> black hole, based on how the black hole rotates. It is then

absorbed (just how

> varies with the different theories) with some material streaming

out from the

> poles at very high temperature and velocity.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for posting, this bit below is what I find most fascinating;

" The center of the black hole is the singularity. This is the point

of ultimate gravity where everything is crushed down into a form we

can't understand. Just what it is and what it is doing we don't

know. Some think it is a gateway to another universe or to other

parts of this universe. Others just think that it is like the

ultimate landfill where things end up buried forever. "

It's the fact we just don't know that I find interesting that and all

the theories.

>

> Bear in mind that I'm not a physicist and get what I know from

reading and

> watching programs on astronomy and the physics behind it.

>

> First, there is the anatomy of a black hole, from the outside in.

>

> Outermost is the gravity field. Consider this like a warp in

space/time,

> just like the everything else. You can visualize this as the

universe being a

> sheet stretched over a frame. If you place an object on the sheet,

it will cause

> an indentation. That indentation is the gravity well of the

object. The

> greater the mass the greater the distortion. Just because

something hits a black

> hole's gravity influence doesn't mean it will be pulled in

immediately. Like

> other more mundane objects, whatever passes by will have its path

altered by

> the gravity. If it was coming in sharply enough, it will get

pulled right in,

> otherwise it might be nudged into an orbit around the black hole

or, if it

> was moving fast enough, be flung off into space again.

>

> The next thing would depend entirely on what the black hole is

doing. If the

> black hole is " feeding, " the material will be orbiting very closely

around

> the black hole. Since black holes seem to rotate just like

everything else we

> have observed, that material will probably be in an accretion disk

around the

> equator. This depends on course on the size of the object.

Something like a

> comet would probably be gobbled right up, but a star would probably

be being

> stripped of its layers before rather than an actual core on

collision with the

> black hole, and those layers would make a disk.

>

> Beyond the disk is the first mystery: the Event Horizon. The old

theories

> were that this was the point of no return. Anything that reached

this point

> would fall into the black hole and be lost forever. Never theories

state that by

> the time you even neared the event horizon, you would be stretched

by the

> gravity like a piece of spaghetti. That is, if you were falling

feet first, your

> feet would experience greater gravity than your head and so would

be pulled

> " harder " and so would begin to fall faster than your head. This

would

> continue and get worse over time until the very atoms would be

pulled apart. Related

> to this theory is that temperature would also increase so you'd be

getting

> fried too. We don't know about the spaghetti thing, but we do know

that the

> temperature aspect seems to be real based on observations.

>

> Other new theories state that maybe nothing actually falls through

the event

> horizon but rather material is smeared across it,

becoming " information "

> rather than matter as we normally think of it.

>

> Inside the event horizon is a complete mystery. As far as we know,

nothing

> except the theoretical Hawking Radiation (I don't think that has

been proven),

> comes back out. Interestingly, the danger of all this gravity seems

to have

> an inverse relationship to the black hole's mass. The more massive

the black

> hole, the further the event horizon is from the center and the

less dangerous.

> This theory states that with a very, very massive black hole, it

might even

> be possible to cross the event horizon and come back out, but that

would take

> an amazingly huge black hole.

>

> The center of the black hole is the singularity. This is the point

of

> ultimate gravity where everything is crushed down into a form we

can't understand.

> Just what it is and what it is doing we don't know. Some think it

is a

> gateway to another universe or to other parts of this universe.

Others just think

> that it is like the ultimate landfill where things end up buried

forever.

>

> The next to the last thing that I will mention is that black holes

seem to

> have a relationship to galaxy formation. At the center of most, if

not all

> Galaxies is a supermassive black hole. The black holes average

around 0.5% of

> the total mass of the galaxy and are probably responsible for the

entire galaxy

> rotating at the same speed, when according to regular physics, the

center of

> a galaxy should be rotating faster than the outer rim. There also

seems to be

> a dead zone around most of the black holes. This is probably

caused because

> when a black hole feeds, it sends out radiation. That radiation

would provide

> an outward pressure which, over time, would push material out of

the reach

> of the black hole and it would stop feeding. The black hole at the

center of

> the Milky Way seems to be in such a quiet phase. However, there

are a number

> of stars orbiting around it and it is only a matter of time before

one gets

> too close and the black hole feeds on it.

>

> Lastly, there is a theory that black holes do evaporate.

Eventually,

> trillions of years from now when the universe has expanded to

nothingness and the

> protons are all decayed, the black holes will slowly vanish too. A

theory does

> state that maybe one of these black holes or one of the last

protons might do

> something very unusual. That object might explode in such a way

that it

> alters the nature of the universe itself. In other words, it could

be the next

> big bang.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sure thing. I do like that we don't know and may never actually know what goes on in there.

It's the fact we just don't know that I find interesting that and all the theories.Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators.

[Guest guest]

That was an interesting link. I read several of the articles there and will read more later on.

Thanks for the link :-) The site looks interesting, I've added it to my favourites.Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators.

[Guest guest]

> I personally would like to hear such, I find black holes and theories > on such fascinating.

http://www.sciam.com/search/index.cfm?q=Black+Holes

This page lists many articles and replies to questions that have been printed in Scientific American about Black Holes. "Ask the Experts" is available for those who have questions and they do get back to you. Strange but True: Black Holes Sing was an article that I found most intriguing.

Kim

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the link :-) The site looks interesting, I've added it to

my favourites.

>

> > I personally would like to hear such, I find black holes and

theories

> > on such fascinating.

>

> http://www.sciam.com/search/index.cfm?q=Black+Holes

> <http://www.sciam.com/search/index.cfm?q=Black+Holes>

>

> This page lists many articles and replies to questions that have

been

> printed in Scientific American about Black Holes. " Ask the

Experts " is

> available for those who have questions and they do get back to

you.

> Strange but True: Black Holes Sing was an article that I found most

> intriguing.

>

> Kim

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Thanks for the link :-) The site looks interesting, I've added it to

> my favourites.

Your very welcome . I get the monthy magazines of Scientific

American & Discover and read through all the articles, the medical ones

are my cup of tea, so to speak. I admit though, most of the longer

detailed quantum physics ones are quite beyond my total comprehension

but I still try. At least I'm trying to learn something new.

Kim

[Guest guest]

Late answering this one coz I've been on holiday.

Here is an argument that singularities never actually form. It's

completely odd that science books always miss this _

It is a fact measured by atomic clocks, that gravity slows time. Time

is fractionally slower on the ground than in the sky. Around black

holes the effect becomes extreme, this apparently is why black holes

can affect the motion of light, it takes a distortion of spacetime

itself to affect the path followed by light which is naturally a

straight line. So when light is pulled back in on itself and can't

escape, so is spacetime, and theoretically time actually stops

entirely at the event horizon. It is a place where events leading into

the normal universe have stopped. But if you are there you still

experience time normally - it's just that events all point into the

hole. But if you are at a place where time has stopped from the

otuside universe's point of view, then from your point of view time

outside has speeded up infinitely. Thus the books say that the whole

od eternity passes in a split second, as you fall into a black hole,

and the inside is " beyond eternity in time. "

This is conceptually a nonsensical idea, though it can be pictured

mathematically as a right-angled turn in spacetime such that time and

space interchange and time going into the hole is no longer on the

same plane as outside. Even so, it is still nonsense - for when does

the inside of the hole ever exist? The first point is that the inside

never comes to exist in our time, relative to us, hence relative to us

no singularities ever come to exist! Everything falling into a hole,

falling towards a potential singularity, is just stopped in mid-fall.

But there are more logical obstacles to a singularity. First, gravity

is exerted by mass so you can only have gravity where you have mass to

exert it. Logically, then, you can't crush the mass out of existence

entirely, or else you no longer have the gravity. So the mass can only

possibly pack together as far as a maximum possible density then stop.

In fact, in studies of creation a maximum density of mass has been

calculated, if I remember it's 10^32 GeV. Tighter than that and the

idea of space between the mass breaks down - and that can't happen

because you have to have space to have gravity, for gravity is

curvature of space. Hence, all that can happen inside a black hole is

the mass bunches up as far as 10^32GeV and stops.

But here's the next neat point! Because because of black hole

evaporation, the time beyond eternity can never get a chance to

happen either - which is an immense relief to logic. You see, as you

fall into the hole and time on the outside speeds up towards

infinitely, the events passing outside include the evaporation of the

hole! So very quickly from your point of view, as you are still

passing the event horizon, the evaporation of the hole closes in on

you and catches up with you. All your mass-energy is simply

transferred back to the outside again.

None of the silly events of the black hole interior ever happen. No

time beyond eternity, no singularity. But the 10^32 GeV or close to it

probably does happen, because that's how you get a concentrated mass

that creates an event horizon.

btw Proton decay - that has never been observed, which it should have

been if it exists. I think it doesn't. It was only the unproven faith

in control of physics, saying all the forces must be unified, that

predicted proton decay because it would unify the hadrons' forces with

the leptons' forces invllved in radioactive decay.

[Guest guest]

Interesting ideas. That is what one of the new theories said, that matter might all get stuck at the event horizon. Too bad we can't send a probe up to get a close look at one. Telescopes are improving all the time though and they think that soon we will be able to actually see planets around other stars. Maybe we will get a look at a black hole one day.

Here is an argument that singularities never actually form. It's completely odd that science books always miss this _Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators.