Re: is not asking for help an autistic trait?

[Guest guest]

"Why do I have to be "tough" and make myself suffer?"

In answer to that question, it might be a psychological thing judging by what you have said below. My parents also made me tough out all sorts of things with the result that I don't know what my feelings are lots of the time and I also that I make myself suffer moreso than other people do."The only outward thing I can think of is that I used to get threatened with spankings for complaining when I was a child. Not for getting hurt, but just for whining or complaining. It was, "You want to cry? I'll give you something to cry about." Could that be it, or could it be the whole "I don't get when things are wrong" kind of thing."

As far as making yourself suffer, it is probably due to the past and how your parents parented you. But you do seem to have an element of cluelessness as your describe below which rather typifies some Aspies. I have annoyed some people by giving and honest answer in response to questions of theirs which began "Give me an honest answer. Do you think that I'm________"

In reality, people do not want honesty, and sometimes they interpret blatant honesty as hostility as the woman you described below has done.

"Just tonight, I got yelled at in the parking lot by some woman who was offended at something I told her in the store. Long story. The part that bothers me is that I didn't even realize she was mad at me till she yelled at me in the parking lot."

Probably you assumed that your words would be taken as well as they were intended. "It's like I don't see danger, particularly danger to myself, whether it's social interaction or living life under the level of normalcy. Everyone is my friend. My problems are my own and no one is going to help me. I just have to "buck up." Stuff like that. Is this an autistic type of trait or is it maybe the result of abuse or is it some personality trait, or what? I don't understand. I know that I'm an extremely smart person, but I feel so "dense" sometimes. :-("

For you it seems to be a combination of upbringing and Aspie cluelessness. You will find others here possess the same level of cluelessness you do, but I would not take your "cluelessness" as being a negative trait. It indicates that you mean well in what you say and do, and that you believe the best about people even if doing so sometimes backfires on you.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

I thought a strong logical sense of fairness was a trait. I will

always complain very quickly about violations of fairness.

What I find very traumatic ever to need to do, is ask for help, as in,

ask for sympathy. Most folks don't have any. The most you can get by

without ever having to do it, the better.

The trauma can most often happen with lost property offices in shops.

[Guest guest]

> For you it seems to be a combination of upbringing and Aspie

> cluelessness. You will find others here possess the same level of

> cluelessness you do, but I would not take your " cluelessness " as

being a

> negative trait. It indicates that you mean well in what you say and

do,

> and that you believe the best about people even if doing so

sometimes

> backfires on you.

>

You're probably right. I tend to see people favorably, and when they

are ticked off, I am usually clueless. They seem to take some

offense, figuring that I must have some sinister ulterior motive.

Then, if they are someone I am seeing again (not the woman in the

store, but let's say, a coworker or fellow student as when I was in

school), they go and whisper what terrible thing I did to their

friends, and then it's this " let's get her back " mob mentality. In

retrospect, I can see that that's where a lot of the bullying

started, even though I was clueless at the time, and a lot of it

continued because I had NO IDEA why they were after me, or even if I

did, there was no way to stand up to the " mob " rationally.

As for the woman in the store, I committed the " crime " of pointing

out to her that she had dirt smeared all over her blouse and pants

while not paying attention to the fact that she and the cashier had

been talking about it already (she was standing in line checking out

in front of me). I usually don't point out things to people, but this

looked fixable (she just needed a good dusting off) and I felt she

might appreciate knowing she was covered in dirt before her next

destination (I would have wanted to know, had it been me). The dirt

had apparently come from a watermelon that she had hand-carried to

the checkout. Being busy with my youngest child (age 3) and my own

affairs of getting my purchases onto the belt, etc., I didn't notice

what she and the cashier were talking about and only caught the tail

end where she said something like, " ....so my son wanted me to get a

watermelon. " I then asked her if she knew she had stuff on her and

she replied, in an annoyed voice, " I just said that! " to which I

replied, " I wasn't listening...I just heard you say something about

the watermelon. " So then she gestured with her hands going along her

body and said, " Yes, I have dirt all over me " to which I responded

with " Sorry, " which wasn't very loud, but she should've heard. So I

finished my purchase and I'm out louding my child and my bags into

the car a few minutes later and all of a sudden (and bear in mind it

is after dark at this point and I have no idea who this is at first),

she swings by in her convertible car with the top down SCREAMING at

the top of her lungs, " SOME PEOPLE ARE JUST IGNORANT!!!! " It took me

a moment to process who on earth this was or why she was saying this

or what it had to do with me, but I later figured out she was angry

at me, that she must have thought I was calling her a " dirty person, "

and that when she made the hand gesture and said, " Yes, I have dirt

all over me, " that she was very annoyed and feeling attacked, even

though I honestly did not " pick up " on that at the time. I thought

she was only annoyed that I pointed it out after she and the cashier

had been talking. So, if this woman had been someone that I had to

see again and again, our relationship would've been " ruined " already

by this incident and she and her comrades would've harrassed me to no

end, given the pattern that I've experienced in the past -- and all I

was doing was trying to help someone.

BTW, I posted about this on a parenting board full of NT parents last

night and every one of them felt that she was way out of line, over

the top, and that screaming in the parking lot was not acceptable,

especially at someone with a small child with them. It feels good to

have people say that, but it still bothers me that even at 44 years

old, when I have been through so much already and have really tried

to implement a policy of " paying attention to how I come across, "

this kind of thing still happens.

[Guest guest]

>

> I thought a strong logical sense of fairness was a trait. I will

> always complain very quickly about violations of fairness.

> What I find very traumatic ever to need to do, is ask for help, as

in,

> ask for sympathy. Most folks don't have any. The most you can get by

> without ever having to do it, the better.

> The trauma can most often happen with lost property offices in shops.

>

I have a very strong sense of fairness, too, but I tend to lavish that

sense on other people rather than on myself, for some reason. The only

thing I get really ticked off at when it comes to myself is when people

act patronizing or try to " correct " me on something that I know is not

wrong. I'm usually pretty easy going (I don't even feel " cut off " in

traffic by other drivers, for example, and couldn't care less if

someone gets in front of me), but the second someone starts acting like

they think they're my parent - watch out. You don't want to be near me,

then.

[Guest guest]

>

> In answer to that question, it might be a psychological thing judging

by

> what you have said below. My parents also made me tough out all sorts

of

> things with the result that I don't know what my feelings are lots of

> the time and I also that I make myself suffer moreso than other people

> do.

That's a good point, and I'm going to bring that up with the

psychologist. I never thought about it as " not knowing what my feelings

are, " but that's a good way of describing it. It was like I wasn't

allowed to have feelings, so I didn't. Or maybe I was embarrassed of

having feelings. Not sure, but whatever the cause, I have not acted in

my own best interest because of it, and I'm often misunderstood as " not

caring " about things because I'm too outwardly stoic.

[Guest guest]

" It feels good to have people say that, but it still bothers me that

even at 44 years old, when I have been through so much already and have

really tried to implement a policy of " paying attention to how I come

across, " this kind of thing still happens. "

1) It happens to me too.

2) Half those people on that other board would have done the same thing

this woman did.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

Catharine wrote: " ... <snip> ... As for the woman in the store, I committed the "crime" of pointing out to her that she had dirt smeared all over her blouse and pants while not paying attention to the fact that she and the cashier had been talking about it already (she was standing in line checking out in front of me) ... <snip> ... "

I am not trying to upset you more, Catharine, but what you did was akin to eavesdropping unfortunately. The woman was already engaged in conversation with the cashier with regards to the dirt situation; you were not invited into the conversation but rather inserted yourself into the conversation. This is a breach of basic conversational etiquette and has nothing whatsoever to do with being AS or either of them being NT.

While your reasons for inserting yourself into the conversation were kind and gentle, the fact remains that you were out of line for having inserted yourself into their conversation uninvited.

Unless asked to join a conversation, it is always considered rude and inappropriate to speak up unless there is imminent danger (ie. an out of control car is speeding towards the conversationalists) or there is an emergency (ie. you are having a heart attack).

Catharine wrote: " ... <snip> ... BTW, I posted about this on a parenting board full of NT parents last night and every one of them felt that she was way out of line, over the top, and that screaming in the parking lot was not acceptable, especially at someone with a small child with them ... <snip> ... "

While I agree with them that the part about the woman driving past you and screaming was unacceptable, you must understand that you caused the initial breach. She was already acutely aware of his situation when you felt the need to point the obvious out to her. Better that you should have just left things alone until you were asked for your opinion on the matter.

And while it's nice to see that every one on the NT parenting board supported you, I will tell you now that what they say to your face and how they REALLY think of you are two very different things altogether.

They may very well feel that the parking lot screaming by the other woman was wrong but they also believe that you were wrong for having joined the initial conversation in the first place.

Catharine wrote: " ... <snip> ... It feels good to have people say that, but it still bothers me that even at 44 years old, when I have been through so much already and have really tried to implement a policy of "paying attention to how I come across" that this kind of thing still happens ... <snip> ... "

It is important to learn the entrenched rules of etiquette that dictate behaviours which, for the most part, are just plain common sense. In that way, you do not have to worry as much about how you come across to other people.

Had you been aware of the conversational rules mentioned above, you would not have been perceived negatively as you would not have been a consideration in the conversation. Consequently, you would not have been the target of the other woman's embarrassment and ire.

You could look for the following at your local library if you'd like to know more about etiquette.

The Amy Vanderbilt Complete Book of Etiquette: 50th Anniversary Edition, by Tuckerman, Dunnan, and Amy Vanderbilt, Doubleday (1995), ISBN 0-385-41342-4, 786 pages

Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior, Freshly Updated, by Judith , illustrated by Gloria Kanem, W.W. Norton & Co. (2005), ISBN 0-393-05874-3, 858 pages.

New Manners for New Times: A Complete Guide to Etiquette, by Letitia Baldrige, New York: Scribner, 2003, ISBN 0-7432-1062-X, 709 pages.

Raven

[Guest guest]

Actually, their conversation was finished, and she was looking in my

direction, saying nothing. It was a very " casual " atmosphere,

standing in line standing right next to each other. I did not

interrupt anything. So I don't feel I was out of line, though I

appreciate your concern. I think she was angry because I HADN'T been

listening to their conversation, and brought up something they were

just talking about (which she thought I should've heard), which made

her feel that I was saying she was " dirty. " However, I won't

be " helping " anyone like that again. I almost didn't say it in the

first place. Now, people can just be dirty if they are going to be

dirty, as far as I'm concerned. I'm also unclear on how you can think

that AS and etiquette issues are not related, since many of us have a

hard time understanding social interaction (which to me, includes

etiquette) - even though I don't think this was an etiquette issue

since I didn't interrupt their conversation. In fact, I had no idea

what they were talking about except to hear the tail end of it, as I

had said.

" ... <snip> ... It feels good to have people say

that,

> but it still bothers me that even at 44 years old, when I have been

> through so much already and have really tried to implement a policy

of

> " paying attention to how I come across " that this kind of thing

still

> happens ... <snip> ... "

>

> It is important to learn the entrenched rules of etiquette that

dictate

> behaviours which, for the most part, are just plain common sense.

In

> that way, you do not have to worry as much about how you come

across to

> other people.

>

> Had you been aware of the conversational rules mentioned above, you

> would not have been perceived negatively as you would not have been

a

> consideration in the conversation. Consequently, you would not have

> been the target of the other woman's embarrassment and ire.

>

> You could look for the following at your local library if you'd

like to

> know more about etiquette.

>

> The Amy Vanderbilt Complete Book of Etiquette: 50th Anniversary

Edition,

> by Tuckerman, Dunnan, and Amy Vanderbilt, Doubleday

(1995),

> ISBN 0-385-41342-4, 786 pages

>

> Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior, Freshly

Updated,

> by Judith , illustrated by Gloria Kanem, W.W. Norton & Co.

(2005),

> ISBN 0-393-05874-3, 858 pages.

>

> New Manners for New Times: A Complete Guide to Etiquette, by Letitia

> Baldrige, New York: Scribner, 2003, ISBN 0-7432-1062-X, 709 pages.

>

> Raven

>

[Guest guest]

Catharine wrote: " ... <snip> ... Actually, their conversation was finished, and she was looking in my direction, saying nothing. It was a very "casual" atmosphere, standing in line standing right next to each other ... <snip> ... "

It was still not an invitation to comment on the discussion she had been having with the cashier.

Previously you described the situation thusly: "

I committed the "crime" of pointing out to her that she had dirt smeared all over her blouse and pants while not paying attention to the fact that she and the cashier had been talking about it already (she was standing in line checking out in front of me). I usually don't point out things to people, but this looked fixable (she just needed a good dusting off) and I felt she might appreciate knowing she was covered in dirt before her next destination (I would have wanted to know, had it been me) [end quote]."

That the conversation had ended and that she was "looking in [your] direction, saying nothing" did not mean that you were invited to make a personal comment about her attire. You were neither in a discussion nor friendly acquaintances. Whether the situation looked fixable to you is immaterial. Your opinion was not requested by the woman.

I am oftentimes told that I am looking in someone's direction, saying nothing when I am just generally looking in A direction and saying nothing. It is not an invitation for someone to strike up a conversation with me, much less make personal comments about me.

Catharine wrote: " ... <snip> ... I did not interrupt anything ... <snip> ... "

You invaded her personal space by providing unsolicited opinion on her personal situation.

Catharine wrote: " ... <snip> ... So I don't feel I was out of line ... <snip> ... "

Unfortunately, Catharine, you WERE out of line.

Catharine wrote: " ... <snip> ... I think she was angry because I HADN'T been listening to their conversation, and brought up something they were just talking about (which she thought I should've heard), which made her feel that I was saying she was "dirty" ... <snip> ... "

No, it was the audacity with which you provided an unsoliciated opinion. While you were only being helpful since this is what you would have wanted had you been in her shoes, you have to remember that this is not what the majority of society wants.

Catharine wrote: " ... <snip> ... However, I won't be "helping" anyone like that again. I almost didn't say it in the first place. Now, people can just be dirty if they are going to be dirty, as far as I'm concerned ... <snip> ... "

I operate on this rule: Unless it's life threatening or illegal, it is none of my business.

Catharine wrote: " ... <snip> ... I'm also unclear on how you can think that AS and etiquette issues are not related, since many of us have a hard time understanding social interaction (which to me, includes etiquette) -- even though I don't think this was an etiquette issue since I didn't interrupt their conversation ... <snip> ... "

Bad manners and poor etiquette are not synonymous with AS. In fact, most people with AS function optimally in social settings where etiquette is the determining factor in behaviours.

Etiquette is not about understanding social interaction, it's about following a set of rules for said interactions. Whether one is AS or NT, etiquette is the same for all ergo having AS and following etiquette (protocol) is in no way related.

And whether you interrupted the conversation or merely added your two cents worth once the conversation had come to an end, it was most assuredly a breach of etiquette since the woman did not solicit your opinion or initiate a conversation with you on the subject of her attire ... or any other subject for that matter.

Catharine wrote: " ... <snip> ... In fact, I had no idea what they were talking about except to hear the tail end of it, as I had said ... <snip> ... "

Truth be told, you should have stayed out of it completely, Catharine.

Raven

[Guest guest]

Raven,

I tried to respond to this but perhaps it did not " take " or has not

shown up yet.

I think we need to end this conversation. Your response seems very

angry to me. I never commented on " their conversation " whatsoever.

The fact that they even HAD a conversation was beside the point.

I don't feel very welcome on this forum due to your angry response.

Perhaps I don't belong here, because you go on and on and on and on

about it. I guess I'm not " appropriate " like you.

" ... <snip> ... Actually, their conversation was

> finished, and she was looking in my direction, saying nothing. It

was a

> very " casual " atmosphere, standing in line standing right next to

each

[Guest guest]

Why is it that when information is presented in a black-and-white,

factual, no judgment, no emotion way that some people feel the need to

attribute negative emotion to it in order to justify lashing out at the

person who takes the time to provide the black-and-white, factual

information in the first place?

How is trying to help you better understand etiquette an " angry "

response?

How is providing you with resources to facilitate your understanding

an " angry " response?

You wanted to know why the woman was so upset with you and I explained

to you the constructs of etiquette and social interactions within those

parameters.

You obviously have a need to be right and absolved of your wrongdoing

on your part and because I am providing you with information that is

contrary to this you attack me, accuse me of making " angry " posts and

then make a snide comment about not being as " appropriate " as I am.

I have noticed similar reactions on many NTs when Aspies provide them

with correct information that doesn't fit in with their mindset.

Raven

>

> Raven,

>

> I tried to respond to this but perhaps it did not " take " or has not

> shown up yet.

>

> I think we need to end this conversation. Your response seems very

> angry to me. I never commented on " their conversation " whatsoever.

> The fact that they even HAD a conversation was beside the point.

>

> I don't feel very welcome on this forum due to your angry response.

> Perhaps I don't belong here, because you go on and on and on and on

> about it. I guess I'm not " appropriate " like you.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Catharine wrote: " ... I don't feel very welcome on this forum due

to your angry response. Perhaps I don't belong here, because you go

on and on and on and on about it. I guess I'm not " appropriate " like

you. "

Why is it that when someone asks a question and the answer they

receive which is factual, correct and posted without emotion, that

person decides that there is a negative emotion attached to the post

and by virtue of their assumption, they invalidate the factual

accuracy of the post to which they object?

What's more, why is it coupled with a personal attack such as the one

in the final line you posted to me, Catharine?

What did I do other than provide you with factual information and my

sources to facilitate your education with regards to the matter?

Nothing. However, you felt it well within your rights to accuse me

of behaviour which is not in evidence.

NOTE: This post is not being written in anger. In fact, it is a

series of questions and comments, none of which are coloured by

negative emotion.

Raven

[Guest guest]

>

> What did I do other than provide you with factual information and my

> sources to facilitate your education with regards to the matter?

Not interested.

Good day.

[Guest guest]

I find it very curious that you would state something like that being a button

of yours you

don't like having pressed, and yet, you stand all amazed that some complete

stranger you

did exactly the same thing to was upset with you for having the nerve to state

something

they likely already were very aware of, and were not at all wanting commentary

from the

peanut gallery about their real or perceived flaws.

In the future, perhaps you should strive to ask such questions in your mind

before

approaching others: if you were them, would you want someone telling you what

was

wrong with you or what you're doing, without asking? Perhaps that'd save you a

lot of

practical interaction problems: if you don't attempt to force yourself on the

existence of

others, you'll likely (in most cases) be seen as just another person minding

their own

business, as opposed to an annoying " I'm going to be your mother-figure " type or

nosy

person sticking yours in where they don't feel it belongs. Or, in other words:

if people

don't ask for your opinions and thoughts, then just shut up and keep them to

yourself,

where they can only affect you.

> >

> > I thought a strong logical sense of fairness was a trait. I will

> > always complain very quickly about violations of fairness.

> > What I find very traumatic ever to need to do, is ask for help, as

> in,

> > ask for sympathy. Most folks don't have any. The most you can get by

> > without ever having to do it, the better.

> > The trauma can most often happen with lost property offices in shops.

> >

>

> I have a very strong sense of fairness, too, but I tend to lavish that

> sense on other people rather than on myself, for some reason. The only

> thing I get really ticked off at when it comes to myself is when people

> act patronizing or try to " correct " me on something that I know is not

> wrong. I'm usually pretty easy going (I don't even feel " cut off " in

> traffic by other drivers, for example, and couldn't care less if

> someone gets in front of me), but the second someone starts acting like

> they think they're my parent - watch out. You don't want to be near me,

> then.

>

[Guest guest]

>

> I find it very curious that you would state something like that being

a button of yours you

> don't like having pressed, and yet, you stand all amazed that some

complete stranger you

> did exactly the same thing to was upset with you for having the nerve

to state something

> they likely already were very aware of, and were not at all wanting

commentary from the

> peanut gallery about their real or perceived flaws.

I appreciate your concern, but I think I may have given the wrong

impression or not described the story accurately: I ASKED her if she

knew about it; I didn't say " You are dirty. " It was an attempt at

saving another person some embarrassment. She was then annoyed that she

had just been talking about it yet I had asked her right afterward...I

think because she felt I should have heard her already. However, I had

not been paying attention to that conversation whatsoever.

If it had been something she couldn't do anything about (a stain, a run

in her hose), I wouldn't have said a thing, as it would have just

caused her distress.

Another time some months ago I was in a line and even though I really

wasn't trying to " look, " saw a woman standing by me with her pants

zipper all the way down, showing her undies. I walked over to her and

whispered in her ear about it. She was quite appreciative and did not

take offense that I was " pointing out her flaws. "

In the region where I live, there is still something to being

neighborly or helpful, and I stand by that, no matter what

any " official " etiquette books say about talking to strangers.

[Guest guest]

>

> In the future, perhaps you should strive to ask such questions in

your mind before

> approaching others: if you were them, would you want someone telling

you what was

> wrong with you or what you're doing, without asking?

I forgot to answer this part. To answer your question, yes. I was in a

park one time and had just come out of the restroom and was standing at

the side of my vehicle, trying to deal with my child. Apparently after

using the restroom moments earlier my skirt had gotten caught on my

undies and was literally showing a good part of my backside, but I

wasn't aware of it. A woman walked up to me and told me about it. I

thanked her and fixed it immediately. Good thing for me she didn't know

about " etiquette " about how you're not supposed to impose yourself on

strangers.

[Guest guest]

strictnon_conformist wrote: " ... <snip> ... if people don't ask for

your opinions and thoughts, then just shut up and keep them to yourself,

where they can only affect you ... <snip> ... "

Exactly my point, strict. Thank you.

Raven

[Guest guest]

Catharine wrote: " ... <snip> ... I appreciate your concern, but I

think I may have given the wrong impression or not described the story

accurately: I ASKED her if she knew about it; I didn't say " You are

dirty " ... <snip> ... "

What you said was neither neighbourly nor helpful. It was rude and

intrusive.

This is the same sort of behaviour that you have complained about

yourself in past posts and yet you feel you have the right to do

likewise to others under the guise of being neighborly and helpful and

chalking it up to Autism.

strict is correct in his comments to you about keeping your comments to

yourself in such situations.

Raven

[Guest guest]

Catharine wrote: " ... <snip> ... Good thing for me she didn't know

about " etiquette " about how you're not supposed to impose yourself on

strangers ... <snip> ... "

Nice work you're doing at insulting me for pointing out what is

acceptable and what is not acceptable when dealing with strangers or

engaging in conversation with a stranger.

Now if you want to go the route of what is acceptable behaviour in such

a case, I can enlighten you but you are only looking for more fuel with

which to light your cannons.

Catharine, you were in wrong and you are just too stubborn to realize

that you were in the wrong.

I won't even address the latest scenario you just posted.

Raven

[Guest guest]

" I'm also unclear on how you can think that AS and etiquette issues

are not related, since many of us have a hard time understanding

social interaction (which to me, includes etiquette) - even though I

don't think this was an etiquette issue since I didn't interrupt

their conversation. In fact, I had no idea what they were talking

about except to hear the tail end of it, as I had said. "

I think ettiquette is ettiquette. Aspies cannot claim ignorance of

social rules as long as there are ettiquette rulebooks around.

I also happen to agree with the idea that it was probably best to say

nothing of the woman's dirty outfit.

I can remember when someone I knew was having trouble starting his

lawn mower. I believed I knew what the problem was and mentioned it

in the presence of an Aspie who was " more Aspie " tan I. He shouted

over the fence " Have you checked the spark plug gap? "

I hushed him up imediately explaining when people are angry or upset

about something, they don't want to be made to feel stupid by being

offered obvious suggestions. ASPIES would want to know these obvious

suggestions, but not NTs.

I was not born with such knowledge, but learned from experience.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

" I don't feel very welcome on this forum due to your angry response.

Perhaps I don't belong here, because you go on and on and on and on

about it. I guess I'm not " appropriate " like you. "

I have three things to say about this comment:

1) If it had been ME in the checkout line with you, I would have been

just as angry with you as that woman was except I would have kept my

mouth shut instead of scaring you half to death later on in the

parking lot, and

2) This is a case of you trying to defend behavior on your part that

was clearly erroneous and then getting angry when someone persists

with trying to explain why it was erroneous.

3) Why is it that when someone does not want to hear an opinion that

is correct (in this case as proven by the rules of ettiquette) they

shoot the messenger?

In essence, Raven has done the exact same thing to help you that you

tried to do with this woman in the store with one essential

difference: You ASKED for an opinion. Ergo in this case you are not

justified in getting angry at Raven's solicited opinion whereas the

woman in the store was clearly justified in getting angry at your

UNSOLICITED opinion.

Is this a case of " I can dish it out, but I cannot take it? "

Seems that way.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

" I appreciate your concern, but I think I may have given the wrong

impression or not described the story accurately: I ASKED her if she

knew about it; I didn't say " You are dirty. " It was an attempt at

saving another person some embarrassment. She was then annoyed that

she had just been talking about it yet I had asked her right

afterward...I think because she felt I should have heard her already.

However, I had not been paying attention to that conversation

whatsoever. "

, it does not matter how you tell the story, you were still

wrong to say anything.

She was upset for one of two reasons:

1) She didn't like the fact that you noticed the dirt, or

2) She thought you were a ditz for not knowing what they wgere

talking about.

But regardless of why she was angry, what you did was intrude on her

conversation and point out something to her you had no business

pointing out to her. You were in the wrong and she was in the right.

It's the way the world works.

" If it had been something she couldn't do anything about (a stain, a

run in her hose), I wouldn't have said a thing, as it would have just

caused her distress. "

It causes people distress no matter what you point out. NTs have a

notoriously low threshhold for criticism. They take it personally

when you tell them a bird messes on their car, as if THEY were

responsible for what the bird did.

" Another time some months ago I was in a line and even though I really

wasn't trying to " look, " saw a woman standing by me with her pants

zipper all the way down, showing her undies. I walked over to her and

whispered in her ear about it. She was quite appreciative and did not

take offense that I was " pointing out her flaws. "

If someone said to me helpfully: " Your fly is open! " My response

would be: " What the heck are you doing looking at my fly, you

pervert? And who cares anyway? "

And no, it would not embarrass me to have my fly down in public. It

has happened before. It IS troubling though because I worry

afterwards that someone would think it was deliberate rather than

accidental. Nevertheless, I would not have to worry about whether it

was up or down if other people didn't look not would I?

" In the region where I live, there is still something to being

neighborly or helpful, and I stand by that, no matter what

any " official " etiquette books say about talking to strangers. "

I agree with the general concept but there is a difference between

being neighborly, as in " It looks like you've got your hands full

with those six bags of groceries. Do you need help? " and sticking

your nose in where it doesn't belong, such as " Your blouse is dirty "

or some such.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

Regarding this topic...

I think we are nearing the point where everyone has said everything

that they need to say. Let's keep it civil if we need to progress any

further, but with the intention of ending the discussion soon or if it

gets inflamatory.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

>

> Regarding this topic...

>

> I think we are nearing the point where everyone has said everything

> that they need to say. Let's keep it civil if we need to progress any

> further, but with the intention of ending the discussion soon or if

it

> gets inflamatory.

>

>

> Administrator

>

No, it's not going to progress, because I have no intention of

remaining in this group. Unfortunately, I think the internet fosters an

environment that attracts people who have this incessant need to feed

their ego by " proving " how " right " they are, and I don't want to be

part of that kind of environment. I'm not going to sit here and defend

my own sense of right and wrong over and over and over again.

And about the supposed May 21, 2008 message where I supposedly said

that I despised aspies for acting a certain way, I searched through May

20-22, 2008 and found nothing that I posted to that effect.

Good day....and good life.....to you all.

[Guest guest]

Catharine wrote: " ... <snip> ... No, it's not going to progress,

because I have no intention of remaining in this group.

Unfortunately, I think the internet fosters an environment that

attracts people who have this incessant need to feed their ego

by " proving " how " right " they are, and I don't want to be part of

that kind of environment ... <snip> ... "

This is the sort of behaviour that makes me question whether you have

an official diagnosis of AS or are self-misdiagnosed. You are

offended because more than one person has pointed out to you that you

are in the wrong.

Any Autistic I know would look at the information provided him or

her, see the correctness of it, admit to himself or herself at least

that he or she was in error, and then learn from the experience.

From personal experience as well as from observation, most NTs I know

react just as you are reacting now, Catharine.

It is not feeding one's ego to provide correct and factual

information.

It is, however, egocentric of an individual to be proven wrong and to

continue to insist that they are right despite all the evidence to

the contrary.

Since 80% of people are ill-mannered and do not understand basic

concepts of embodied by etiquette as per the previously mentioned

study, it does not surprise me that you fail to recognize that your

behaviour at the store places you solidly within that 80% of people.

I won't be two-faced and wish you well because that would be

insincere (but very NT acceptable). I do hope however that at some

point in your life you will be able to open your mind to the fact

that etiquette is about respect of self and respect of others and

that the rules associated with etiquette actually make life EASIER

for Autistics and not more difficult as you would have us believe.

Raven