Mumbai gunmen besiege hotels, kill 119 in 2 days

[Guest guest]

Other reports have made more about the terrorists coming from Pakistan. This could easily brew up into another war between the two nations, which could get nasty very fast since both have nuclear weapons.

I read a convincing article in a magazine today that said one reason nations like India and Pakistan developed nuclear weapons was because they looked at the US/Russian cold war and drew the lesson that if two nations had nukes, they would not risk even conventional war with each other. Others would also be less likely to threaten them, if they didn't have nukes.

However, they ran into the catch 22. When a rival nation starts developing nukes, then you pretty much have to as well or they will have you over a barrel. That means that they could push you into doing whatever they wanted because they had the bigger weapons. If you attacked them, you got nuked. They could attack you with conventional forces and if the going got rough, they could nuke a city or two to force a surrender on their terms.

The problem India and Pakistan have that the US and Russia didn't is the religious and ethnic tensions and hatred that are centuries old. In times past, raids and minor wars weren't too much of a threat to the nation as a whole, but now that both sides have atomics it is another matter altogether.

This also puts the US in another uncomfortable position. It has been rumored that our forces had a hand in controlling Pakistan's nuclear weapons. True or not it doesn't matter: the rumor is out there. How is this important? If Pakistan gets attacked by India and Pakistan can't use its atomics, then Al-Qaida and other groups will say that we helped India in its war against Pakistan. True or not, many in the Muslim world will believe it and that is all that will matter.

Still, hopefully it won't lead to all out war.

In a message dated 11/27/2008 5:58:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, no_reply writes:

MUMBAI, India – Indian commandoes fought Thursday to wrest control of two luxury hotels and a Jewish center from suspected Muslim militants, a day after a chain of attacks across Mumbai left at least 119 people dead and the city shellshocked.Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW AOL.com.

[Guest guest]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_india_shooting;_ylt=AqQr7SfGMmlNz4vSfHFT

..ZSs0NUE

By RAMOLA TALWAR BADAM, Associated Press Writer Ramola Talwar Badam,

Associated Press Writer – 7 mins ago

MUMBAI, India – Indian commandoes fought Thursday to wrest control of

two luxury hotels and a Jewish center from suspected Muslim

militants, a day after a chain of attacks across Mumbai left at least

119 people dead and the city shellshocked.

Gunfire and explosions were heard throughout the day and night from

the besieged headquarters of the ultra-orthodox Jewish outreach group

Chabad Lubavitch and the Taj Mahal and Oberoi hotels, two of the top

gathering spots for the Mumbai elite. Throughout the day, commandoes

brought hostages, trapped guests and corpses out of the hotels in

small groups while fires erupted periodically and firefighters

battled the flames.

State officials said 119 people had died and 288 were injured.

The well-planned attacks began Wednesday night and officials said the

gunmen were prepared, even carrying large bags of almonds to keep up

their energy during the fight. Their main targets appeared to be

Americans, Britons and Jews, though most of the dead seemed to be

Indians and foreign tourists caught in the random gunfire.

The gunmen — some of whom strode casually through their targets in

khakis and T-shirts — clearly came ready for a siege.

" They have AK-47s and grenades. They have bags full of grenades and

have come fully prepared, " said Maj. Gen. R.K. Hooda. Vice-Admiral

J.S. Bedi, a top naval officer.

Ratan Tata, who runs the company that owns the elegant Taj Mahal,

said they appeared to have scouted their targets in advance.

" They seem to know their way around the back office, the kitchen.

There has been a considerable amount of detailed planning, " he told a

news conference.

Throughout the day, black-clad Indian commandos moved through the two

hotels room by room in a bid to free the dozens of trapped people.

The Maharashtra state home ministry said dozens of hostages had been

freed from the Oberoi and dozens more were still trapped inside. More

than 400 people were brought out of the Taj Mahal, and army forces

were still scouring the building for survivors early Friday morning.

Late Thursday night, authorities said they had killed three gunmen at

the Taj and were sweeping the Oberoi in search of hostages and

trapped people.

It remained unclear just how many people had been taken hostage, how

many were hiding inside the hotels and how many dead still lay

uncounted.

There were conflicting reports about hostages at the Jewish center. A

diplomat closely monitoring the site said people were still being

held there, though an Indian state official said earlier eight

hostages had been released. Both sources spoke on condition of

anonymity because they were not authorized to talk to the media.

The diplomat said the eight people had likely been hiding in a nearby

building.

On Thursday morning, a woman, child and an Indian cook were led out

of the building by police, said one witness. The child was identified

as Moshe Holtzberg, 2, the son of Rabbi Gavriel Noach Holtzberg, the

main representative at Chabad house. The child was unharmed, but his

clothes were soaked in blood.

, 44, the cook who pulled the boy out the building, said

she saw Rabbi Holtzberg, his wife Rivka and two other unidentified

guests lying on the floor, apparently " unconscious. "

India has been shaken repeatedly by terror attacks blamed on Muslim

militants in recent years, but most of those attacks have been

coordinated bombings that struck random crowded places: markets,

street corners, parks.

These attacks were far more sophisticated — and more brazen.

They began at about 9:20 p.m. with the shooters spraying gunfire

across the Chhatrapati Shivaji railroad station, one of the world's

busiest terminals. For the next two hours, there was an attack

roughly every 15 minutes — the Jewish center, a tourist restaurant,

one hotel, then another, and two attacks on hospitals. There were 10

targets in all.

Indian media showed pictures of black and yellow rubber dinghies

found by the city's shoreline, apparently used by the gunmen to reach

the area. Both of the luxury hotels targeted overlook the Arabian

Sea, which surrounds the peninsula of Mumbai.

At the Chhatrapati Shivaji railroad station, a soaring 19th century

architectural monument, gunmen fired bullets through the crowded

terminal, leaving the floor spattered with blood and corpses.

" They just fired randomly at people and then ran away. In seconds,

people fell to the ground, " said Nasim Inam, a witness.

Analysts around the world were debating whether the gunmen could have

been tied to — or inspired by — al-Qaida.

" It's clear that it is al-Qaida style, " but probably not carried out

by the group's militants, said Rohan Gunaratna, of the International

Center for Political Violence and Terrorism Research in Singapore and

author of " Inside Al-Qaida. "

" Yesterday's attack is a watershed because for the first time, the

terrorists deliberately attacked international targets, " he said,

noting that symbolic high-profile targets had been chosen, apparently

to magnify the effects of the violence.

Indian media reports said a previously unknown group calling itself

the Deccan Mujahideen claimed responsibility in e-mails to several

media outlets. The Deccan is a region in southern India that was

traditionally ruled by Muslim kings.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh blamed " external forces " for the

violence — a phrase sometimes used to refer to Pakistani militants,

whom Indian authorities often blame attacks on.

" The well-planned and well-orchestrated attacks, probably with

external linkages, were intended to create a sense of panic, by

choosing high profile targets and indiscriminately killing

foreigners, " he said in address to the nation.

Survivors of the hotel attacks said the gunmen had specifically

targeted Britons and Americans.

Chamberlain, a British citizen dining at the Oberoi, told

reporters that a gunman ushered 30 to 40 people from the restaurant

into a stairway and ordered everyone to put up their hands.

The gunmen " stopped once and asked, 'Where are you from? Any British

or American? Show your ID.' My friend said, 'Tell them you're

Italian.' And there I was with my hands up basically thinking I was

in a lot of trouble. "

Chamberlain said he managed to slip away as the patrons were forced

to walk upstairs.

One man brought out of the Oberoi, a who identified himself as a Pole

but did not give his name, told reporters he had seen many bodies

inside, but refused to elaborate, saying he had promised police not

to discuss details of the rescue operation.

Among the dead were at least four Australians and a Japanese, said

the state home ministry. An Italian, a Briton and a German were also

killed, according to their foreign ministries.

At least three top Indian police officers — including the chief of

the anti-terror squad — were among those killed, said Roy.

Among those foreigners still held captive in all three buildings were

Americans, British, Italians, Swedes, Canadians, Yemenis, New

Zealanders, Spaniards, Turks, French, a Singaporean and Israelis.

The United States, Pakistan and other countries condemned the

attacks.

The motive for the onslaught was not immediately clear, but Mumbai

has frequently been targeted in terrorist attacks blamed on Islamic

extremists, including a series of bombings in July 2006 that killed

187 people.

Mumbai is one of the most populated cities in the world with some 18

million crammed into shantytowns, high rises and crumbling mansions.

India has been wracked by bomb attacks the past three years, which

police blame on Muslim militants intent on destabilizing this largely

Hindu country. Nearly 700 people have died.

Since May, a militant group calling itself the Indian Mujahideen has

taken credit for a string of blasts that killed more than 130 people.

The most recent was in September, when explosions struck a park and

crowded shopping areas in the capital, New Delhi, killing 21 people

and wounding about 100.

Relations between Hindus, who make up more than 80 percent of India's

1 billion population, and Muslims, who make up about 14 percent, have

sporadically erupted into bouts of sectarian violence since British-

ruled India was split into independent India and Pakistan in 1947.

___

Associated Press writers Anita Chang, Kinetz and

Barchfield contributed to this report.

[Guest guest]

" Still, hopefully it won't lead to all out war. "

I doubt it. Keep in mind the US and Pakistan both have nukes and the US

has been doing surgical strikes for a while now with precision guided

bombs. Pakistan has said it would not respond with nuclear weapons, and

I assume that even if they had the range, they would not.

I think the only way a nuclear exchange would happen between Pakistan

and India would be if some radical government got into power in either

country. At the moment, the government in Pakistan is clearly werak,

but not radical.

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