Guest guest Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 Probably for the best. I've seen video of these canned hunts in the US and I have no respect at all for people who go on them. Down in Alabama, there is a regular Wednesday breakfast get together of a few local businessmen. I go along sometimes when I am there. One of the fellows one day was talking about a canned hunt that he went on. A couple of the guys were listening, but the rest of us were disgusted. Pretty much all of them hunt, but in the open on their own land, not chased penned in animals. In a message dated 12/5/2008 3:14:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, no_reply writes: Many. As an environmental activist, I could tell you lots of stories, but will refrain from doing so.AdministratorMake your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 " I wonder how many end up in those exotic animal canned hunt clubs? " Many. As an environmental activist, I could tell you lots of stories, but will refrain from doing so. Administrator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2008 Report Share Posted December 6, 2008 Knut's situation is the result of short-sighted/greedy, unsustainable stewardship practices, but putting Knut into a canned hunt situation would be the ultimate turd in the punch bowl: I can't imagine that anyone would be remotely satisfied with hunting any animal that's learned that humans are their food source and not to be feared, because then there's not really any hint of anything being remotely " sporting " about the whole thing, if that's why you hunt. To make clear: I'm not for or against hunting, as long as it isn't done for the sake of it being sport, and the animals involved are not wasted or made to suffer more than can reasonably be avoided. But if an animal is going to be the subject of being hunted by a human, I'd at least like to see the animal have it as fair as possible, since sometimes you get the bear, and sometimes the bear gets you, and that's the way it should be. By not being raised in the normal, natural way, an animal doesn't learn what they should to be the natural animal that they should, which includes survival skills. There's quite a few half-way preserves for many other types of animals to try to teach them how to live with their own kind, naturally: I wonder if there's such a thing for polar bears? (I suspect there's not, and never will be) > > Probably for the best. I've seen video of these canned hunts in the US and I > have no respect at all for people who go on them. > > Down in Alabama, there is a regular Wednesday breakfast get together of a > few local businessmen. I go along sometimes when I am there. One of the fellows > one day was talking about a canned hunt that he went on. A couple of the guys > were listening, but the rest of us were disgusted. Pretty much all of them > hunt, but in the open on their own land, not chased penned in animals. > > > > > In a message dated 12/5/2008 3:14:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > no_reply writes: > > Many. As an environmental activist, I could tell you lots of stories, > but will refrain from doing so. > > > Administrator > > > **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and > favorite sites in one place. Try it now. > (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new- dp & icid=aolcom40vanity & ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2008 Report Share Posted December 6, 2008 to me, hunting is fair when the playing field is fair. Re: Knut gets evicted Knut's situation is the result of short-sighted/greedy, unsustainable stewardship practices, but putting Knut into a canned hunt situation would be the ultimate turd in the punch bowl: I can't imagine that anyone would be remotely satisfied with hunting any animal that's learned that humans are their food source and not to be feared, because then there's not really any hint of anything being remotely "sporting" about the whole thing, if that's why you hunt. To make clear: I'm not for or against hunting, as long as it isn't done for the sake of it being sport, and the animals involved are not wasted or made to suffer more than can reasonably be avoided. But if an animal is going to be the subject of being hunted by a human, I'd at least like to see the animal have it as fair as possible, since sometimes you get the bear, and sometimes the bear gets you, and that's the way it should be. By not being raised in the normal, natural way, an animal doesn't learn what they should to be the natural animal that they should, which includes survival skills. There's quite a few half-way preserves for many other types of animals to try to teach them how to live with their own kind, naturally: I wonder if there's such a thing for polar bears? (I suspect there's not, and never will be) > > Probably for the best. I've seen video of these canned hunts in the US and I > have no respect at all for people who go on them. > > Down in Alabama, there is a regular Wednesday breakfast get together of a > few local businessmen. I go along sometimes when I am there. One of the fellows > one day was talking about a canned hunt that he went on. A couple of the guys > were listening, but the rest of us were disgusted. Pretty much all of them > hunt, but in the open on their own land, not chased penned in animals. > > > > > In a message dated 12/5/2008 3:14:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > no_reply writes: > > Many. As an environmental activist, I could tell you lots of stories, > but will refrain from doing so. > > > Administrator > > > **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and > favorite sites in one place. Try it now. > (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new- dp & icid=aolcom40vanity & ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) > ------------------------------------ FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and acceptance. Everyone is valued. To contact the forum administrator, use this e-mail address: FAMSecretSociety-owner Check the Links section for more FAM forums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2008 Report Share Posted December 6, 2008 Ah, that's where things get interesting: 1. Who, or what gets to determine that? 2. How do they determine that? 3. Is there ever such a thing between creatures of two different species where one is hunting the other that's truly " fair " or is that all just a nice theory? How do you balance out intelligence versus physical abilities to determine if things are balanced? What about all the other factors? Someone that's really committed to the most fair and sporting manner of hunting they can devise would go off into the wilderness with only (at most) their clothes, and their wits, and use what's available in the environment itself and their own strength to try to take down their would-be prey. Humans aren't nearly as strong in many respects as many of the larger animals, and aren't as fast, but, they tend to have a bit more dexterity available for making tools, and presumably, a lot more intelligence, while a lot of the animals have far better senses of smell, and sometimes of sight, and often of hearing, all tools available at their disposal. However, there's one thing humans have over most other animals: a human that is truly physically-fit can out-distance most animals over a long period of time, even at a lower sustainable speed, because humans can readily sweat, and are actually better adapted to long distance running than most people would give credit for: humans, within limits, can literally run-down their prey, if they use enough intelligence in the strategy to run them into an enclosed space or something they can't get through readily (say, the edge of a cliff as a natural barrier). Couple that with the needed dexterity to grab rocks or sticks as crude weapons, there's a lot a human with no more modern weapon technology can do. But, even given all that, is it ever a level playing field in practice? > > > > Probably for the best. I've seen video of these canned hunts in the > US and I > > have no respect at all for people who go on them. > > > > Down in Alabama, there is a regular Wednesday breakfast get > together of a > > few local businessmen. I go along sometimes when I am there. One of > the fellows > > one day was talking about a canned hunt that he went on. A couple > of the guys > > were listening, but the rest of us were disgusted. Pretty much all > of them > > hunt, but in the open on their own land, not chased penned in > animals. > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 12/5/2008 3:14:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > > no_reply writes: > > > > > Many. As an environmental activist, I could tell you lots of > stories, > > but will refrain from doing so. > > > > > > Administrator > > > > > > **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, > and > > favorite sites in one place. Try it now. > > (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new- > dp & icid=aolcom40vanity & ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and > acceptance. Everyone is valued. To contact the forum administrator, use this > e-mail address: FAMSecretSociety-owner > > Check the Links section for more FAM forums. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2008 Report Share Posted December 6, 2008 strict wrote: " 3. Is there ever such a thing between creatures of two different species where one is hunting the other that's truly " fair " or is that all just a nice theory? " God never signed a contract with the Universe to be fair ergo there isn't such a beast as 'hunting that is truly fair.' :-) Raven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2008 Report Share Posted December 6, 2008 And here I thought I had made it fairly clear that my conclusion is the same However, I couldn't call putting a previously human-conditioned animal from the time it was young (no matter which one it is, if it relied only on what humans taught it or did to it) out into an area and having a hunter hunt it down as so much of a hunt, as it is a slaughter. " 3. Is there ever such a thing between creatures of two > different species where one is hunting the other that's truly " fair " or > is that all just a nice theory? " > > God never signed a contract with the Universe to be fair ergo there > isn't such a beast as 'hunting that is truly fair.' :-) > > Raven > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2008 Report Share Posted December 6, 2008 Someone that's really committed to the most fair and sporting manner of hunting they can devise would go off into the wilderness with only (at most) their clothes, and their wits, and use what's available in the environment itself and their own strength to try to take down their would-be prey. seems fair to me. Re: Knut gets evicted Ah, that's where things get interesting: 1. Who, or what gets to determine that? 2. How do they determine that? 3. Is there ever such a thing between creatures of two different species where one is hunting the other that's truly "fair" or is that all just a nice theory? How do you balance out intelligence versus physical abilities to determine if things are balanced? What about all the other factors? Someone that's really committed to the most fair and sporting manner of hunting they can devise would go off into the wilderness with only (at most) their clothes, and their wits, and use what's available in the environment itself and their own strength to try to take down their would-be prey. Humans aren't nearly as strong in many respects as many of the larger animals, and aren't as fast, but, they tend to have a bit more dexterity available for making tools, and presumably, a lot more intelligence, while a lot of the animals have far better senses of smell, and sometimes of sight, and often of hearing, all tools available at their disposal. However, there's one thing humans have over most other animals: a human that is truly physically-fit can out-distance most animals over a long period of time, even at a lower sustainable speed, because humans can readily sweat, and are actually better adapted to long distance running than most people would give credit for: humans, within limits, can literally run-down their prey, if they use enough intelligence in the strategy to run them into an enclosed space or something they can't get through readily (say, the edge of a cliff as a natural barrier). Couple that with the needed dexterity to grab rocks or sticks as crude weapons, there's a lot a human with no more modern weapon technology can do. But, even given all that, is it ever a level playing field in practice? > > > > Probably for the best. I've seen video of these canned hunts in the > US and I > > have no respect at all for people who go on them. > > > > Down in Alabama, there is a regular Wednesday breakfast get > together of a > > few local businessmen. I go along sometimes when I am there. One of > the fellows > > one day was talking about a canned hunt that he went on. A couple > of the guys > > were listening, but the rest of us were disgusted. Pretty much all > of them > > hunt, but in the open on their own land, not chased penned in > animals. > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 12/5/2008 3:14:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > > no_reply writes: > > > > > Many. As an environmental activist, I could tell you lots of > stories, > > but will refrain from doing so. > > > > > > Administrator > > > > > > **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, > and > > favorite sites in one place. Try it now. > > (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new- > dp & icid=aolcom40vanity & ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and > acceptance. Everyone is valued. To contact the forum administrator, use this > e-mail address: FAMSecretSociety-owner > > Check the Links section for more FAM forums. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2008 Report Share Posted December 6, 2008 i dont understand the reference to God, although I agree that life is not fair. However when equity occurs or is the result of striving, it pleases me. Re: Knut gets evicted strict wrote: "3. Is there ever such a thing between creatures of two different species where one is hunting the other that's truly "fair" or is that all just a nice theory?" God never signed a contract with the Universe to be fair ergo there isn't such a beast as 'hunting that is truly fair.' :-) Raven ------------------------------------ FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and acceptance. Everyone is valued. To contact the forum administrator, use this e-mail address: FAMSecretSociety-owner Check the Links section for more FAM forums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2008 Report Share Posted December 6, 2008 Animals don't fight fair in the first place. Animals, especially predators, look for fights they think they can win without getting hurt. That's why predators like lions will single out young animals, the old ones or ones that look sick, including baby elephants and hippos, if the parents aren't close by to break up the attack. As for human hunting, I don't have a problem with it save for canned hunts or going after honestly endangered species. I don't particularly like it when hunters shoot a dangerous creature like a grizzly bear from 500 yards with a high powered rifle though. I would much rather they be required to get up close and personal with large caliber pistols or powerful rifles under a certain range, though there is no real way to legislate that. On the other hand, there are pest animals, sometimes pests of our own creation. Deer are a good example of this. Because of our opening up forests for fields, our yards and other open space, we have made conditions much more favorable for deer and their populations have exploded. This is a problem because they are destroying plant diversity in the forests. 30 years ago there might have been 30 different ground species of plants in a given area. Today their might be 10, if you're lucky. The deer had browsed the best food plant species to near extinction. The result is that other species no longer had quality forage and their numbers are dropping. Deer still thrive though even on the lower quality forage. Their numbers are so high in Alabama that around my place that after Hurricane Ivan came through and did so much damage, that loggers and others were reporting dozens of dead deer on even small parcels of land, killed by falling trees. Even so, hunters the following season saw large numbers of deer. Even with the kill from Ivan, the deer population is expanding and is close to getting out of control. My point about the deer is that they could be used more as a food source, and as the venison company shows, there is a market for it, though it is small right now. Fewer deer would not be a bad thing fewer of them would allow forests to restore some bio-diversity and help other species like the Armadillo and Opossum regain their numbers. BTW, I don't hunt deer mostly because I don't like the taste of venison and I things I would rather to than sit in a cold deer stand early in the morning waiting to maybe shoot something I won't eat in the first place. In a message dated 12/6/2008 11:56:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, no_reply writes: It means that God did not make creatures the same, thus they will always be vying to hold their places in the world, and their places in the food chain. AdministratorMake your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2008 Report Share Posted December 6, 2008 It means that God did not make creatures the same, thus they will always be vying to hold their places in the world, and their places in the food chain. Administrator " 3. Is there ever such a thing between creatures of two different species where one is hunting the other that's truly " fair " or is that all just a nice theory? " God never signed a contract with the Universe to be fair ergo there isn't such a beast as 'hunting that is truly fair.' :-) Raven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2008 Report Share Posted December 6, 2008 " My point about the deer is that they could be used more as a food source, and as the venison company shows, there is a market for it, though it is small right now. " Deer are a prey animal that proliferate quickly. I have no problem with people hunting deer for food provided it is done humanely. Administrator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2008 Report Share Posted December 6, 2008 That's one of the reasons deer have exploded in population, but not the only one, and maybe not even the most significant one, actually: other than fields being opened up, mankind has been on a long-term systematic extermination of all significant predator animals that could harm the livestock of humans, or the humans themselves: as a result, instead of losing our livestock and the occasional human to predator animals, we mostly lose our desired greenery, and have to deal with hitting or being hit by prey animals such as deer that are able to procreate out of natural controlled balance as a result. As much alarm as predator animals cause in sensationalistic humans in most places of the world (outside of actual real jungles that still are rather balanced) I'd wager there's several times more humans seriously hurt or killed as a result of being hit by deer when in their cars and trucks (it is entirely possible to take out a semi truck with one, as deer don't have crumple zones, and are like hitting a bloody, meaty brick wall), or hitting them in the same vehicles. Of course, there are still many people too shortsighted to understand this, who have clearly not read anything about ecological history and what's happened all over the world as foolish people actively go about exterminating natural predators. End result: since we blew away the previously existing natural balance, we've now firmly placed ourselves into that role, whether by organized regular hunts, or by accidents that benefit neither side. What's worse than seeing a deer on the highway? Seeing only half a deer on the highway! (Saw that one time driving up I-69 north of Fort Wayne, Indiana one night: couldn't have been a good situation for the driver(s)!) I wonder how long before it next rained: there were no fire hydrants or any similar water sources nearby to wash it off. > > Animals don't fight fair in the first place. Animals, especially predators, > look for fights they think they can win without getting hurt. That's why > predators like lions will single out young animals, the old ones or ones that > look sick, including baby elephants and hippos, if the parents aren't close by > to break up the attack. > > As for human hunting, I don't have a problem with it save for canned hunts > or going after honestly endangered species. I don't particularly like it when > hunters shoot a dangerous creature like a grizzly bear from 500 yards with a > high powered rifle though. I would much rather they be required to get up > close and personal with large caliber pistols or powerful rifles under a certain > range, though there is no real way to legislate that. > > On the other hand, there are pest animals, sometimes pests of our own > creation. Deer are a good example of this. Because of our opening up forests for > fields, our yards and other open space, we have made conditions much more > favorable for deer and their populations have exploded. This is a problem because > they are destroying plant diversity in the forests. 30 years ago there might > have been 30 different ground species of plants in a given area. Today their > might be 10, if you're lucky. The deer had browsed the best food plant > species to near extinction. The result is that other species no longer had quality > forage and their numbers are dropping. Deer still thrive though even on the > lower quality forage. Their numbers are so high in Alabama that around my > place that after Hurricane Ivan came through and did so much damage, that loggers > and others were reporting dozens of dead deer on even small parcels of land, > killed by falling trees. Even so, hunters the following season saw large > numbers of deer. Even with the kill from Ivan, the deer population is expanding > and is close to getting out of control. > > My point about the deer is that they could be used more as a food source, > and as the venison company shows, there is a market for it, though it is small > right now. Fewer deer would not be a bad thing fewer of them would allow > forests to restore some bio-diversity and help other species like the Armadillo > and Opossum regain their numbers. > > BTW, I don't hunt deer mostly because I don't like the taste of venison and > I things I would rather to than sit in a cold deer stand early in the morning > waiting to maybe shoot something I won't eat in the first place. > > > > > In a message dated 12/6/2008 11:56:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > no_reply writes: > > It means that God did not make creatures the same, thus they will > always be vying to hold their places in the world, and their places > in the food chain. > > > Administrator > > **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and > favorite sites in one place. Try it now. > (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new- dp & icid=aolcom40vanity & ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2008 Report Share Posted December 6, 2008 Ok. That idea does not work for me because I do not subscribe to the notion of gods or one god or anything else like that. To me, it is just about survival and humans are the most vicious predators of all, especially now that many of us have the luxury of paying for others to do our hunting and gathering. It distances us from respect for our victims. I guess my feelings about equity are simply a bizarre human desire to be "better" than my nature, which is hard to justify ethically for a devout eater of meat. Bring on the venison. I love the stuff. lol. Re: Knut gets evicted It means that God did not make creatures the same, thus they will always be vying to hold their places in the world, and their places in the food chain. Administrator "3. Is there ever such a thing between creatures of two different species where one is hunting the other that's truly "fair" or is that all just a nice theory?" God never signed a contract with the Universe to be fair ergo there isn't such a beast as 'hunting that is truly fair.' :-) Raven ------------------------------------ FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and acceptance. Everyone is valued. To contact the forum administrator, use this e-mail address: FAMSecretSociety-owner Check the Links section for more FAM forums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2008 Report Share Posted December 7, 2008 Worse still is a dead one lying in a blind spot at the end of a highway off ramp. I came off the interstate once and there was a dead deer and I couldn't stop or swerve and went right over it. No damage, but the undercarriage and wheel wells were a dreadful mess. In a message dated 12/6/2008 4:19:52 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, no_reply writes: What's worse than seeing a deer on the highway?Seeing only half a deer on the highway!(Saw that one time driving up I-69 north of Fort Wayne, Indiana one night: couldn't have been a good situation for the driver(s)!)I wonder how long before it next rained: there were no fire hydrants or any similar water sources nearby to wash it off.Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2008 Report Share Posted December 7, 2008 They do indeed breed quickly, particularly as noted that there are few natural predators for them. Alabama has in the last few years expanded the hunting season and take of female deer. It used to be only males could be hunted, but that didn't have much control over the population, particularly since most bucks killed were the young ones with the older, wilier bucks survived to breed on with less competition. Humane killing is an issue. Most hunters only fire their weapons during hunting season and at that maybe only the few times it takes to get a deer. That is far from enough to maintain proficiency with their pieces. Some probably don't even boresight their rifles, making them less accurate. Of course in many places you can only use shotguns rather than rifles because of human population densities. New rules were proposed mandating a minimum caliber for rifles. This makes sense in a way because shooting a deer with a 5.56mm (the round used in the M16) probably wouldn't kill the animal without great precision, since it is based on a bullet meant to kill rabbits and fox. I think the proposed minimum was .30 caliber or about 7.5mm. The reasoning behind this was that given the number of lousy shots out hunting, a larger caliber bullet was more likely to kill if it hit anywhere than a lighter caliber. Maybe .243 is still allowed, I shot pretty well with one of those, but since I don't hunt, I haven't kept up with the regulations. In a message dated 12/6/2008 3:12:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, no_reply writes: Deer are a prey animal that proliferate quickly. I have no problem with people hunting deer for food provided it is done humanely.AdministratorMake your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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