Re: Too much to swallow

[Guest guest]

2008/12/8 Kim :

>

> Just a quick note to say I miss posting but may be missing in the future

> for some time.

>

> Life seems to be giving me more than I can swallow right now and a

> visual to this would be a small child being force fed, cheeks growing

> increasingly larger. I've either got to swallow or spit it out! Small

> gulps right????

>

> Though I've not been able to read the posts entirely, the headings

> suggest Tom and Raven have been working their butts off! So a note of

> thanks for all their efforts.

>

> If I can't get back before the holidays, I wish everyone peace.

>

> Kim

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and

acceptance. Everyone is valued. To contact the forum administrator, use this

e-mail address: FAMSecretSociety-owner

>

> Check the Links section for more FAM forums.

>

>

[Guest guest]

It's to help and bless you,. Happy times, God bless you, Varsana.

2008/12/8 Nora Mendoza :

> 2008/12/8 Kim :

>>

>> Just a quick note to say I miss posting but may be missing in the future

>> for some time.

>>

>> Life seems to be giving me more than I can swallow right now and a

>> visual to this would be a small child being force fed, cheeks growing

>> increasingly larger. I've either got to swallow or spit it out! Small

>> gulps right????

>>

>> Though I've not been able to read the posts entirely, the headings

>> suggest Tom and Raven have been working their butts off! So a note of

>> thanks for all their efforts.

>>

>> If I can't get back before the holidays, I wish everyone peace.

>>

>> Kim

>>

>>

>>

>> ------------------------------------

>>

>> FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and

acceptance. Everyone is valued. To contact the forum administrator, use this

e-mail address: FAMSecretSociety-owner

>>

>> Check the Links section for more FAM forums.

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

" If I can't get back before the holidays, I wish everyone peace. "

Peace to you too. You know where to go if you need us.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

Kim, our thoughts and prayers are with you. For 2009, I wish you peace

and quiet and calmness for you and your family. You always have a

place here in FAM and you have a place as Cub's and my friend.

(((HUGS)))

Raven

[Guest guest]

Kim, I wish you the best. Feel free to unload on us anytime. *offers a hug*Happy Holidays.--Zoe

[Guest guest]

You'll be missed and I hope things improve for you soon Kim.

>

>

> Just a quick note to say I miss posting but may be missing in the

future

> for some time.

>

> Life seems to be giving me more than I can swallow right now and a

> visual to this would be a small child being force fed, cheeks

growing

> increasingly larger. I've either got to swallow or spit it out!

Small

> gulps right????

>

> Though I've not been able to read the posts entirely, the headings

> suggest Tom and Raven have been working their butts off! So a note

of

> thanks for all their efforts.

>

> If I can't get back before the holidays, I wish everyone peace.

>

> Kim

>

[Guest guest]

Remember to keep Kim in contact if FAM packs up for any reason.

A time of healing and settling, we wish well for. We can all need it

at some times.

[Guest guest]

" Remember to keep Kim in contact if FAM packs up for any reason. "

Of course.

And believe me, I have been stewing over whether or not to pack it in

for some time now. I frequent other forums, and I see that if it is a

choice between people having intelligent conversation and goofing

around, people will pick goofing around about ninety percent of the

time.

My own autism is one in which I have spent my life looking for

meaningful conversation, but I am fast coming to realize that my fellow

autistics seem to have spent their own lives looking to act like

complete and utter idiots, but since they are shunned by real people,

they have been denied that chance.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

:Please don't 'pack it in', there may be many who are 'lurkers', following the discusions but not speaking up (posting). Also the most vocal (frequent posters) or the most common themes emotionally (ie a 'poor me' attitude) may not represent the majority of forum members. In the physical world, I used to bemoan the lack of my own know-how or seeming oportunity to have meaningful conversations, but have often been surprised with a 'real' discusion that happens like a rain after a drought.I am fairly new to the world of internet forums, belong to 2 cat groups.renaissanzelady

And believe me, I have been stewing over whether or not to pack it in

for some time now. I frequent other forums, and I see that if it is a

choice between people having intelligent conversation and goofing

around, people will pick goofing around about ninety percent of the

time.

My own autism is one in which I have spent my life looking for

meaningful conversation, but I am fast coming to realize that my fellow

autistics seem to have spent their own lives looking to act like

complete and utter idiots, but since they are shunned by real people,

they have been denied that chance.

Administrator

Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail

[Guest guest]

" Please don't 'pack it in', there may be many who are 'lurkers',

following the discusions but not speaking up (posting). "

Yes, I am aware of that, but the conversations here would be much more

invigorating if the lurkers spoke up and participated, or introduced

topics of their own.

" Also the most vocal (frequent posters) or the most common themes

emotionally (ie a 'poor me' attitude) may not represent the majority of

forum members. "

Well, they rather do. Or else there is a similar proportion of " poor

Me " people across all message boards on the net. Perhaps whiners are

particularly prone to seek out online discussion boards. Hard to say.

" In the physical world, I used to bemoan the lack of my own know-how or

seeming oportunity to have meaningful conversations, but have often

been surprised with a 'real' discusion that happens like a rain after a

drought. "

Yes, it does seem sometimes that real world people are incapable of

talking deeply about anything, and it is indeed very refreshing when a

deep conversation happens. They are very rare in the real world. Quite

frustrating really.

" I am fairly new to the world of internet forums, belong to 2 cat

groups. "

Well, we are pleased to have you here.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

" Well, they rather do. Or else there is a similar proportion of " poor

Me " people across all message boards on the net. Perhaps whiners are

particularly prone to seek out online discussion boards. Hard to say. "

I've heard many expressions (can't recall them all), one is 'the

squeaky wheel gets the oil' which I was told basically means is those

that shout the loudest get stuff, whether it be attention or

whatever. Kind of sad to think such is true, but to some extent maybe

it is, think of 'pester power' that advertisers encourage children to

do, so that mum or dad will give in to silence child.

In life I find it hard to constantly have to re-iterate myself, but

have found that in some cases it is necessary to do so. I rarely will

shout, but if something is important I will persist and I have found

that I can be rather determined (although some will call it stubborn)

and sometimes the things I am trying to affect will take years of me

perservering, but I'll do it :-)

I have observed those who shout, I've seen the type again and again,

all hot air and anger a quick shout and then they'll simmer for a

while and then another quick shout; but while they shout and complain

and be-moan that nothing is done, they themsleves will rarely do

anything - I've actually seen this type of person stick to the same

pattern of behaviour for years, which I can't help but think is

stupid; if a pattern of behaviour is not working then the logical

thing to do would be to adopt a new pattern of behaviour - however

according to some psychologists they must be benefitting somehow from

their behaviour, otherwise they would not continue to behave so.

" Yes, it does seem sometimes that real world people are incapable of

talking deeply about anything, and it is indeed very refreshing when

a deep conversation happens. They are very rare in the real world.

Quite frustrating really. "

My mother recently said to me that my conversations are too deep and

she did not like such - and this is the same woman who previously

said she likes deep conversations, then I realised that as with many

that she only liked deep conversations of her choosing. She has also

previously told me she doesn't like to think too deeply about

somethings and that my conversations cause her to do such. I have

noticed I seem to upset a lot of people by causing them to think,

however some actually do like to think :-) I've been told I think too

much, but in retrospect I think that many do not think enough :-)

" Well, we are pleased to have you here. "

I'll second that :-) unless someone has beaten me to it.

>

> " Please don't 'pack it in', there may be many who are 'lurkers',

> following the discusions but not speaking up (posting). "

>

> Yes, I am aware of that, but the conversations here would be much

more

> invigorating if the lurkers spoke up and participated, or

introduced

> topics of their own.

>

> " Also the most vocal (frequent posters) or the most common themes

> emotionally (ie a 'poor me' attitude) may not represent the

majority of

> forum members. "

>

> Well, they rather do. Or else there is a similar proportion

of " poor

> Me " people across all message boards on the net. Perhaps whiners

are

> particularly prone to seek out online discussion boards. Hard to

say.

>

> " In the physical world, I used to bemoan the lack of my own know-

how or

> seeming oportunity to have meaningful conversations, but have often

> been surprised with a 'real' discusion that happens like a rain

after a

> drought. "

>

> Yes, it does seem sometimes that real world people are incapable of

> talking deeply about anything, and it is indeed very refreshing

when a

> deep conversation happens. They are very rare in the real world.

Quite

> frustrating really.

>

> " I am fairly new to the world of internet forums, belong to 2 cat

> groups. "

>

> Well, we are pleased to have you here.

>

>

> Administrator

>

[Guest guest]

Hi --I also can be very perseverant and determined.- and tend to (judgementally) think most people give up too easily. However maybe they just know how to prioritize. 2 of my 'people whispers' advised me to pick my issues!- thanks to you and and others for your welcome!- I tend to mention things that cause people to think, some appreciate this, some don't.- you mother's response to being challenged to think brings to mind the 'proverb' 'becareful what you wish for because you might get it!'- people have told me I 'think too much.'renaissanzelady wrote

In life I find it hard to constantly have to re-iterate myself, but

have found that in some cases it is necessary to do so.

I have

noticed I seem to upset a lot of people by causing them to think,

however some actually do like to think :-) I've been told I think too

much, but in retrospect I think that many do not think enough :-)

"Well, we are pleased to have you here."

I'll second that :-) unless someone has beaten me to it.

Now with a new friend-happy design! Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger

[Guest guest]

I realised that as with many that she only liked deep conversations of her choosing.

The other thing I have found is that most humans only like conversations which reinforce their opinions. Faced with oppostition, the majority will fly into abuse in an attempt to suppress difference.

Re: Too much to swallow

"Well, they rather do. Or else there is a similar proportion of "poor Me" people across all message boards on the net. Perhaps whiners are particularly prone to seek out online discussion boards. Hard to say."

I've heard many expressions (can't recall them all), one is 'the squeaky wheel gets the oil' which I was told basically means is those that shout the loudest get stuff, whether it be attention or whatever. Kind of sad to think such is true, but to some extent maybe it is, think of 'pester power' that advertisers encourage children to do, so that mum or dad will give in to silence child.

In life I find it hard to constantly have to re-iterate myself, but have found that in some cases it is necessary to do so. I rarely will shout, but if something is important I will persist and I have found that I can be rather determined (although some will call it stubborn) and sometimes the things I am trying to affect will take years of me perservering, but I'll do it :-)

I have observed those who shout, I've seen the type again and again, all hot air and anger a quick shout and then they'll simmer for a while and then another quick shout; but while they shout and complain and be-moan that nothing is done, they themsleves will rarely do anything - I've actually seen this type of person stick to the same pattern of behaviour for years, which I can't help but think is stupid; if a pattern of behaviour is not working then the logical thing to do would be to adopt a new pattern of behaviour - however according to some psychologists they must be benefitting somehow from their behaviour, otherwise they would not continue to behave so.

"Yes, it does seem sometimes that real world people are incapable of talking deeply about anything, and it is indeed very refreshing when a deep conversation happens. They are very rare in the real world. Quite frustrating really."

My mother recently said to me that my conversations are too deep and she did not like such - and this is the same woman who previously said she likes deep conversations, then I realised that as with many that she only liked deep conversations of her choosing. She has also previously told me she doesn't like to think too deeply about somethings and that my conversations cause her to do such. I have noticed I seem to upset a lot of people by causing them to think, however some actually do like to think :-) I've been told I think too much, but in retrospect I think that many do not think enough :-)

"Well, we are pleased to have you here."

I'll second that :-) unless someone has beaten me to it.

> > "Please don't 'pack it in', there may be many who are 'lurkers', > following the discusions but not speaking up (posting)."

> > Yes, I am aware of that, but the conversations here would be much more > invigorating if the lurkers spoke up and participated, or introduced > topics of their own. > > "Also the most vocal (frequent posters) or the most common themes > emotionally (ie a 'poor me' attitude) may not represent the majority of > forum members."

> > Well, they rather do. Or else there is a similar proportion of "poor > Me" people across all message boards on the net. Perhaps whiners are > particularly prone to seek out online discussion boards. Hard to say.

> > "In the physical world, I used to bemoan the lack of my own know-

how or > seeming oportunity to have meaningful conversations, but have often > been surprised with a 'real' discusion that happens like a rain after a > drought."

> > Yes, it does seem sometimes that real world people are incapable of > talking deeply about anything, and it is indeed very refreshing when a > deep conversation happens. They are very rare in the real world. Quite > frustrating really.

> > "I am fairly new to the world of internet forums, belong to 2 cat > groups."

> > Well, we are pleased to have you here.

> >

> Administrator

>

------------------------------------

FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and acceptance. Everyone is valued. To contact the forum administrator, use this e-mail address: FAMSecretSociety-owner

Check the Links section for more FAM forums.

[Guest guest]

gprobertson wrote: " The other thing I have found is that most humans

only like conversations which reinforce their opinions. Faced with

oppostition [sic], the majority will fly into abuse in an attempt to

suppress difference. "

Isn't " abuse " a little bit strong?

Faced with opposition, the majority of people will definitely argue

their point with greater veracity than if they are not faced with

opposition. However, I disagree that arguing one's point with greater

veracity should be categorized as flying into abuse or attempting to

suppress differences.

Could you provide an example of 'typical' abuse in such a situation,

gprobertson?

Raven

[Guest guest]

Good Morning:

--- i have met a few rare humans who enjoy a controversial discussion. They are like a rare treasure amongst the more common folks!

renaissanzelady

---Subject: Re: Re: Too much to swallow

I realised that as with many that she only liked deep conversations of her choosing.

The other thing I have found is that most humans only like conversations which reinforce their opinions. Faced with oppostition, the majority will fly into abuse in an attempt to suppress difference.-----

..

Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers.

[Guest guest]

"The other thing I have found is that most humans only like conversations which reinforce their opinions. Faced with oppostition, the majority will fly into abuse in an attempt to suppress difference."

That's a matter of opinion.

I think some Aspies have a tougher time of things because when they talk, it is usually somenthing that they know something about.

If I happen to be walking around a party and someone says:

"Did you know that the tiger has the longest canine teeth of any existing cat?"

I would say:

"Actually, it's the clouded leopard which has the longest canine teeth of any cat. It may in fact be the direct lineal descendent of the sabre toothed cat."

They might say:

"'Sabre toothed lion', you mean."

To which I would reply:

"Nope. The 'sabre toothed cat.' The skeletal structure of these extinct animals does not particularly resemble any living cat closely enough to be called a lion or a leopard or what have you, but if the clouded leopard is a lineal descendent of the sabre toothed cat, it would IMPLY that the sabre toothed cat was a leopard. It should be noted that there were scimtar toothed cats as well."

People might call me a blowhard know-it-all, but having studied extensively the 37 species of wildcat, I do believe I know what I am talking about.

I have found myself getting involved in lots of discussions during which people wisely shut up because their database of facts is comparatively limited to mine, but there are those who persist -as far as I can tell- for no other reasons than to one-up me, except that because they do not know what they are talking about, all they succeed in doing is make an ass out of themselves.

Unfortunately, society is social, and so if they do not like me, they will not like you or see me as the victor -or, more importantly, the one who is correct- despite the fact that I AM correct.

This sort of societal behavior is what perpetuates ignorance while allowing the ignorant to feel good about themselves. I encounter the same sort of thing when I talk about autism. I have reviewed the research, verified it, corrobaorated it with other researchers, gathered facts from this research, spoken with autistics,spoken with parents of autistics, spoken with teachers of autistics, spoken with medical professionals who treat autistics, have a background in psychology, educational psychology, educational measurement, special education, and general pedogogy, but of course, I am not liked socially, and so people refuse to believe the facts that come from my mouth. If McCarthy spewed identical facts, SHE would no doubt be believed.

The other reason people persist in arguing with me is to preserve a stubborn and inflexible adherence to their belief system. They don't like the fact that I can take what they have believed to be true all of their lives and prove that it is a lie. Nor do they like to be shown that the limited amount of knowledge they have is factually incorrect, their suppositions faulty, their methods flawed and impractical, and their outcomes poor.

Thus they push their points - a very dangerous game when the welfare and quality of life of autistics are at stake. Yet people take THEIR side because even though these people are clearly ignorant, they present their views in a pleasant way and then pretend to be hurt when they are proven wrong by my assertions, which people interpret to be bullying tactics.

This act of ignorant people pretending to be hurt is a ploy that insipidly sappy people fall for, just as any of us would have the urge to help a wounded bear cub on the road, even though we know full well that if we encountered that same bear cub in the woods it might lunge at us and tear our throats out...or its mother might do even worse.

And that brings up yet another flawed method of arguing that ignorant people employ: The power of numbers. A logic class in college dwelled on this method of argumentation at length.

When we hear on TV: "Four out of five dentists agree that Crest is the best toothpaste" we assume that 80% of all dentists think Crest is the best toothpaste, and so we buy it.

But we have no way of knowing from the commercial how many dentists were surveyed. Was it five? Five hundred? Further, were these dentists paid? What was the alternative to Crest? Some brand of toothpaste that did not have any Flouride in it?

So when someone tells me, "Most people believe that X is a great treatment for autism" my response is to tell them to pull their head out of their rear ends and LOOK AT THE ACTUAL RESEARCH and shut their traps in the meantime, because the most people are just as ignorant as they are.

With all of the above said, I know enough to shut up when the topic being discussed is outside my field of interest or area of expertise. This actually works against me because again, unless you appear to have some knowledge of the topic being discussed, people will think you completely stupid across the board. A generalization of course, but people are prone to making generalizations. It is another human weakness.

When I have no vested interest in a social function I am attending, I tend to use a middle of the raod appraoch. I pretend to know a little tiny bit about whatever is discussed, but not too much so as not to make others feel stupid. These occasions are inevitably the ones where I am the most highly regarded and popular. This increases my contempt for people, since they are missing out on so much knowledge I could give them, all for the sake of a silly social event which they will surely forget in six month's time.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

Learn to just say nothing sometimes. many just only care to hear that

you are going to FIX the problem, or that you did Fix it. Few ever

want to know how or why we fixed the issues, they are very happy ,

knowing that you Did or Can.

Rejoice in that, and go on. The agonizing over acknowledgment is not

worthy of us.

[Guest guest]

> If you have a physical problem, perhaps share with the highest

intelligence persons on the planet, photographic memories, socially

inept, HEY, many of us have nothing better to do but share our care

and knowledge with others, so Spit It Out!!!

>

> Just a quick note to say I miss posting but may be missing in the

future

> for some time.

>

> Life seems to be giving me more than I can swallow right now and a

> visual to this would be a small child being force fed, cheeks

growing

> increasingly larger. I've either got to swallow or spit it out!

Small

> gulps right????

>

> Though I've not been able to read the posts entirely, the headings

> suggest Tom and Raven have been working their butts off! So a note

of

> thanks for all their efforts.

>

> If I can't get back before the holidays, I wish everyone peace.

>

> Kim

>

[Guest guest]

What can we do to help you? Prayers, yes, Research, tell us how,

Knowledge. just ask.

[Guest guest]

yia68jb wrote: " What can we do to help you? Prayers, yes, Research,

tell us how. Knowledge. just ask. "

The offer is typically Aspie ... well-intended, thoughtful, kind and

more.

I do not know Kim's exact situation so perhaps she can make use of your

offer, yia68jb.

Unfortunately, sometimes prayers are all that one has as research and

knowledge fail to yield answers or solutions.

I know with Cub's disease that this is the situation.

I hope for Kim that her situation is not similar in any way whatsoever.

Raven

[Guest guest]

jb bss wrote: " Well intentioned, thoughtful, kind, intelligent. I

never knew that I was " typical " anywhere ... <snip> ... "

The attributes I mentioned are all attributes that Aspies have

demonstrated and that most NTs have not demonstrated when situations

such as Kim's are mentioned. I find these attributes to be endearing

qualities and I am pleased to know that so many Aspies embrace these

qualities. :-)

jb bss wrote: " ... <snip> ... And I have used those skills and many

more for my son, mostly the prayers, and it worked ... <snip> ... "

I am a great believer in the power of prayer. That being said, my

spirituality is steeped in Aboriginal culture and therefore I also know

that sometimes the answer to one's prayer is " No " and that there is a

reason for everything that happens.

jb bss wrote: " ... <snip> ... I am not familiar with Cub's disease,

but if you would tell me about it, I will listen and learn. Others will

listen, contemplate, research ... <snip> ... "

He has Myasthenia Gravis which is a rare, complex, neuromuscular, auto-

immune disorder. There are approximately 100,000 worldwide that have

been diagnosed with this disease of which approximately 36,000 live in

America and 3,300 live in Canada. It is 5 times more rare in children

than in adults.

There is no cure for MG.

One in three children diagnosed with MG dies from MG whereas 1 in 10

adults diagnosed with MG dies from MG.

For drug trials, there needs to be at least 200,000 diagnosed with the

disease therefore any drugs that 'might' help alleviate the symptoms of

MG must also have applications that help other diseases to meet the

200,000 threshhold.

Individuals with Myasthenia Gravis also have rapid fatigue of their

muscles. Symptoms of muscle weakness get worse with repetitive

activities such as blinking or opening and closing a fist repeatedly.

The muscle weakness can also make it difficult to hold the individual's

head or arm up for more than a few minutes.

It can affect the muscles in the throat as well as muscles in the chest

cavity which means that an individual with MG can suffocate to death if

these muscles stop working for any period of time.

Cub also has AS. While Autism will never kill the Autistic, Myasthenia

Gravis can, and does, kill those with the disease.

Cub is currently receiving IVIg transfusions on a monthly basis. Last

month, the side effects (which occur in fewer than 5% of those

receiving IVIg) were severe. It was hoped that the improvement seen

would last four weeks. They did not. The past 7 days have seen a

return of many symptoms from dragging feet to slurred speech to ptosis

and more. Tomorrow we begin the next IVIg treatment that will last

three days.

Interestingly enough, in families where a child is diagnosed with

Autism, an auto-immune disorder is also diagnosed 46% of the time in

the Autistic or immediate family member. In families where there is no

diagnosis of Autism, auto-immune disorders are diagnosed only 26% of

the time. There appears to be a link between the occurence of auto-

immune disorders and Autism Spectrum Disorders.

FAMOUS PEOPLE DIAGNOSED WITH MG, MANY OF WHOM HAVE DIED FROM MG:

1. Weeb Ewbank - NFL Hall of Fame and two-time Super Bowl winning coach

as well as former coach of the NY Jets and Baltimore Colts

2. Lamar Lundy - Former NFL Pro Bowl linebacker and member of the Los

Angeles Rams' " Fearsome Foursome " defense

3. - Brother of Hall of Fame golfer Byron

4. Sir Lawrence Olivier - Famous actor

5. Aristotle Onassis - Greek business tycoon and second husband of

Jackie Bouvier Kennedy

6. Suzanne - Famous soap opera actress from " Days of Our Lives "

in the 70s and 80s

7. " Sleepy Dwarf " - One of the seven dwarves believed to be modeled

after a friend of Walt Disney's that had Myasthenia Gravis

8. Phil Silvers - Actor who played Sgt. Bilko

9. - Famous actor and husband of famous actress Ann

Margaret

10. Karl Malden - Actor from the 70s TV series " The Streets of San

Francisco "

11. Spencer - Famous snooker player who twice won the world

championship in 1969 and 1977

12. Wilma Mankiller - Former Chief of the Cherokee Nation

13. Niven - Famous actor

14. Sir - Former director of the Royal Birmingham Ballet

and currently a Vice-President of the Myasthenia Gravis Association in

the U.K.

15. Connie Haines - Big Band singer who co-starred with Sinatra

16. Garrett (died 1 December 2008) - Hip hop and R & B songwriter

who wrote hits for well known hip hop artists Ginuwine, Pretty Ricky,

Aaliyah, and Lil Wayne.

Cub, and I have a theory that we are currently researching and

writing up in the hopes that medical researchers will pick up the ball

and run with it. It began when Cub linked the possibility of treating

MG the same way computer programmers would treat a Trojan virus that

could not be eliminated from a computer.

jb bss wrote: " ... <snip> ... I wish you well, Raven ... <snip> ... "

Thank you, jb bss. May the God of your faith keep you and yours well.

Raven

[Guest guest]

yia68jb wrote: " My son is now 25, was not expected to live to 2. Only

perseverance, intensive research, never taking No for an answer, and

fighting hard against all odds worked then and will now. "

The love of a parent can make miracles happen as you have proven. Your

words are proof of what is required for miracles to happen.

Raven

[Guest guest]

gprobertson wrote: "I think arguing is fine. Passionate addressing of the topic is expected. Personal comments which are derogatory or abusive appear to me to be nothing more than an attempt to intimidate and suppress discussion."

In your previous post your wrote: "The other thing I have found is that most humans only like conversations which reinforce their opinions. Faced with oppostition [sic], the majority will fly into abuse in an attempt to suppress difference."

I have to say, gprobertson, that most people do not resort to "personal comments which are derogatory or abusive" when on opposite sides of a discussion.

If this is your experience, perhaps it is your approach that causes people to react so negatively to you and your point of view.

My experience has been that only a very small minority of people will become abusive when their point of view is countered respectfully, with facts and sources at the ready to back up the different view.

Raven

[Guest guest]

> gprobertson wrote: " I think arguing is fine. Passionate addressing

> of the topic is expected. Personal comments which are derogatory

> or abusive appear to me to be nothing more than an attempt to

> intimidate and suppress discussion. "

>

> In your previous post your wrote: " The other thing I have found is

> that most humans only like conversations which reinforce their

> opinions. Faced with oppostition [sic], the majority will fly into

> abuse in an attempt to suppress difference. "

>

> I have to say, gprobertson, that most people do not resort to

> " personal comments which are derogatory or abusive " when on

> opposite sides of a discussion.

>

> If this is your experience, perhaps it is your approach that causes

> people to react so negatively to you and your point of view.

>

> My experience has been that only a very small minority of people

> will become abusive when their point of view is countered

> respectfully, with facts and sources at the ready to back up the

> different view.

>

My experience has been that it's a gradient thing. If you flat-out

block the other person's argument then they will argue even more

stridently because they take your flat refusal as a refusal to accord

them their humanity. From their point of view you've suddenly told

them that they don't matter. And NT or AS nobody wants to hear that.

The best I've come up with is a gradual method where you start out

just acknowledging them ( " Okay...I can see that point. " . " That's an

interesting premise. " , " How did you come to those conclusions? I'm

just curious. " , " Mmm-hmm. Mmm-hmm. " , etc.) and let them speak. Let

them take the time to explain their point of view.

It gives you more data for how to deal with the conversation and

gives you an idea of how passionate the person is with that subject.

The more passionate - the more entrenched in their viewpoint.

After they finish the first round of speaking then I try and explain

while citing sources. But only in _small_ chunks. The average NT

has not been taught to deal with large chunks of data and gets

overwhelmed easily. When they get overwhelmed they get defensive.

That's not what you want.

You don't have to be " wormtongue " about it but take your time.

Unless there's a life immediately at stake the cost of you not taking

that time is negligible to getting the other person(s) to see your

side of things if that's your goal. Remember things with the average

human often take more time.

I firmly believe that our minds process things faster than the

average mind and it makes others appear slow to us. Thus we get

impatient waiting for them to " see " things the right way. And we

don't often handle impatience well as AS individuals. I know I

don't. ;-)

--

Mike

In the end the journey only matters if you've helped someone along

the way.

[Guest guest]

Hi Mike:

thanks for your insight into how to present a different view point without immediately causing the other person to resist hearing us! (your approach makes sense, however i never thought of it before)

renaissanzelady

My experience has been that it's a gradient thing. If you flat-out block the other person's argument then they will argue even more stridently because they take your flat refusal as a refusal to accord them their humanity. From their point of view you've suddenly told them that they don't matter. And NT or AS nobody wants to hear that.The best I've come up with is a gradual method where you start out just acknowledging them ("Okay...I can see that point.". "That's an interesting premise.", "How did you come to those conclusions? I'm just curious.", "Mmm-hmm. Mmm-hmm.", etc.) and let them speak. Let them take the time to explain their point of view.It gives you more data for how to deal with the conversation and gives you an idea of how passionate the person is with that subject. The more passionate - the more entrenched in their viewpoint.After they finish the first round of

speaking then I try and explain while citing sources. But only in _small_ chunks. The average NT has not been taught to deal with large chunks of data and gets overwhelmed easily. When they get overwhelmed they get defensive. That's not what you want.You don't have to be "wormtongue" about it but take your time. Unless there's a life immediately at stake the cost of you not taking that time is negligible to getting the other person(s) to see your side of things if that's your goal. Remember things with the average human often take more time.I firmly believe that our minds process things faster than the average mind and it makes others appear slow to us. Thus we get impatient waiting for them to "see" things the right way. And we don't often handle impatience well as AS individuals. I know I don't. ;-)--MikeIn the end the journey only matters if you've helped someone

along the way.

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