Re: MoD halts production of aircraft carriers in new blow ...

[Guest guest]

Some in the US are calling for another round of ground forces in Somalia. We didn't learn last time that even with more than 10,000 soldiers on the ground, not counting foreign military units, we accomplished very little. Just another call to get us bogged down in more useless fighting at a time when we can't afford it in terms of men, material or cash. We probably will though. The Clinton administration was big on "peacekeeping missions" but not providing extra funding for them.

It would be nice if just once we could learn from fairly recent history and not go back into Somalia.

http://news.aol.com/article/us-calls-on-un-to-hunt-pirates-by-land/254629

US calls on UN to hunt pirates by land and air

By JOHN HEILPRIN, AP

posted: 2 HOURS 35 MINUTES AGO

UNITED NATIONS -The U.S. is proposing that the United Nations authorize tracking down Somali pirates not only at sea, but on land and in Somali air space with cooperation from the African country's weak U.N.-backed government.

The United States is circulating a draft U.N. Security Council resolution on the issue, as part of one of the Bush administration's last major foreign policy initiatives. The resolution proposes that all nations and regional groups cooperating with Somalia's government in the fight against piracy and armed robbery "may take all necessary measures ashore in Somalia."

Somalia's government is welcoming the U.S. initiative. Somali government spokesman Abdi Haji Gobdon said Thursday the government will offer any help it can.

If the U.S. military gets involved, it would mark a dramatic turnabout from the U.S. experience in Somalia in 1992-1993 that culminated in a deadly military clash in Mogadishu followed by a humiliating withdrawal of American forces.

U.S. Navy ships already are involved, in small numbers, in patroling the waters off Somalia. A senior administration official in Washington said Thursday that the proposed additional U.N. authority would give the U.S. military more options in confronting the pirates but does not mean the U.S. is planning a ground assault.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the talks, said the resolution would simply provide the possibility of taking action ashore, including from Somalia's air space, in the event of timely intelligence on the pirates' whereabouts. The official said it should not be assumed that such action would necessarily involve U.S. forces.

Without committing more U.S. Navy ships, the Bush administration wants to tap into what officials see as a growing enthusiasm in Europe and elsewhere for more effective coordinated action against the Somali pirates. Administration officials view the current effort as lacking coherence, as pirates score more and bigger shipping prizes.

The U.S. resolution is to be presented at a session on Somalia Tuesday with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.

It proposes that for a year, nations "may take all necessary measures ashore in Somalia, including in its airspace, to interdict those who are using Somali territory to plan, facilitate or undertake acts of piracy and armed robbery at sea and to otherwise prevent those activities."

The draft also says Somalia's government — whose president wrote the U.N. twice this month already seeking help — suffers from a "lack of capacity, domestic legislation, and clarity about how to dispose of pirates after their capture."

Britain agreed Thursday to hand over pirate suspects captured off Somalia's lawless coast to face trial in Kenya, removing a key legal obstacle to prosecuting them, a British diplomat said at a U.N.-organized piracy conference.

In the past, foreign navies patrolling the Somali coast have been reluctant to detain suspects because of uncertainties over where they would face trial as Somalia has no effective central government or legal system.

"Nations are very wary of taking pirates onboard their ships," said Lord Alan West, British undersecretary of state for security and counterterrorism. "It is extremely difficult — where can you put them — if you're not going back to your home country, and even going back to your home country causes immense problems in terms of legal prosecutions."

Britain does not currently have any detained suspects. But in the past some suspects have been released by other members of the international naval coalition despite being found with weapons and boarding equipment such as ladders and grappling hooks.

The agreement is based on an ad hoc deal that saw eight suspected pirates brought to Kenya by a British warship last month. Their trial is expected to take approximately a year. The European Union is currently completing a similar arrangement.

Piracy off Somalia has intensified in recent months, with more attacks against a wider range of targets. There was an unsuccessful assault on a cruise ship in the Gulf of Aden, which links the Mediterranean Sea, the Suez Canal and the Red Sea to the Indian Ocean. In September, pirates seized a Ukrainian freighter loaded with 33 battle tanks and on Nov. 15 they seized a Saudi oil tanker carrying $100 million worth of crude.

About 100 attacks on ships have been reported off the Somali coast this year. Forty vessels have been hijacked, with 14 still remaining in the hands of pirates along with more than 250 crew members, according to maritime officials.

On Thursday, a U.N. anti-piracy conference attended by representatives of more than 40 nations failed to produce a consensual legal framework for tackling piracy but recommended regulation for armed guards on ships and establishing a common policy to discourage ransom payments.

Kenyan Foreign Minister Moses Wetangula said his government had discussed putting armed guards onboard ships from the navies of friendly nations and had also had approaches from private companies.

The conference also recommended targeting the financial networks that support the pirates and building Somali coast guard forces. Somali pirates have taken in an estimated $30 million in ransom this year.

—

Associated Press writers Burns and ine Jelinek contributed from Washington; Katharine Houreld from Nairobi, Kenya; and Salad Duhul from Mogadishu, Somalia.Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

This is telling about politicians. Building the carriers isn't about national defense for them, it is about saving jobs, and thus votes, for themselves.

It is a sad commentary that so often in human history, a nation's military gets torn so the money can be spend on other projects, meaning more projects to buy votes for the politicians. History also shows that not long after, the rivals of those nations take advantage of that weakness, making the first nation wish it had kept up its military.

In a message dated 12/11/2008 11:51:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, no_reply writes:

The continuation of the carrier programme, albeit delayed, is also key to saving jobs. About 10,000 jobs are at stake spread around the country, and Mr Hutton is likely to emphasise that they will be safeguarded despite the delay in the programme. The carriers are to be built in four different shipyards – Barrow-in-Furness, Portsmouth, Govan in Glasgow and Rosyth in Fife – and assembled in blocks. The principle companies involved are BVT Surface Fleet, a joint venture combining BAE Systems and the VT Group, Thales UK, Babcock Marine and Rolls-Royce. Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

I had written up a long post, but decided to copy some information from a history website instead. It is a general overview but it pretty close. The 10,000 man limit was imposed on US forces. The remainder came from foreign sources.

As the article notes, eventually only 1,200 US combat troops were in Somalia, mostly around Mogadishu. Considering the city had a population of between 1.5 and 3 million (there was no official census), that isn't enough to do anything in what amounted to a civil war situation.

+++

http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/general/articles/mogadishu.aspx

Brief Overview of Operation Restore Hope In January 1991, a coalition of tribal clans known as the United Somali Congress forced out long-time dictator Siad Barre. ation between the clans was short-lived, however. Fighting soon broke out among the Somali National Movement, the party of Mohammed Farah Aidid, rival factions loyal to Ali Mahdi and various lesser groups. Internecine warfare followed, destroying the fragile economy of Somalia. In one year an estimated 300 – 500,000 Somalis died, either directly from fighting or indirectly of starvation. Chaos reigned until 03 March 1992, when the warring parties agreed to a cease-fire to allow humanitarian assistance monitored by the United Nations (UN). On 15 August 1992, United Nations Operations in Somalia (UNOSOM I) began Operation Provide Relief. The UN had not counted on the callous nature or the ruthless determination of the warring clans, however. In war-torn Somalia, a failed nation without conventional forms of capital - food was used to ensure the loyalty of followers, gain conscripts and exchanged with neighboring countries for arms. Not surprisingly, relief flights were looted almost as they landed, food convoys were hijacked and aid workers assaulted. Frustrated, the UN called upon its members to provide security (i.e., military support) for the relief mission. As one of his last acts as Commander in Chief, on 04 December 1992 President Bush responded to the UN request, ordering 25,000 troops to lead the United Task Force (UNITAF) in Operation Restore Hope. Led by United States Marines, the UN contingent succeeded in temporarily subduing the clans and restoring a semblance of order. As an outcome of the Conference on National Reconciliation in Somalia held in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia 15 March 1993, the UN recognized mere humanitarian intervention would be insufficient to halt Somalia's civil war or bring long-term help to her people. Taking on the daunting task of 'nation building', the UN greatly expanded its mission. The objectives of UNOSOM II included: • Disarming the warring factions • Restoring law and order • Rebuilding an infrastructure crippled by years of war • Establishing a representative government While publicly supporting the UN mandate in Somalia, President Clinton fatally weakened the effort by reducing American forces to 1200 combat soldiers and 3000 support troops by May 1993. Not surprisingly, as the number of US forces decreased the level of violence increased. On 05 June 1993, 24 Pakistani soldiers were ambushed and brutally massacred. The UN launched a major effort to capture or kill Aidid and destroy his militia, who they saw as the major roadblock to peace. Aidid retaliated with further attacks on UN and especially US forces. In response, Task Force Ranger, a combined Army Ranger and elite Delta Force group, deployed to Somalia 08 August 1993 with orders to eliminate Aidid. At the same time, and without informing the military, the Clinton administration also began a secret initiative to negotiate with Aidid, utilizing former President as a Special Envoy . The mixed signals thus generated help explain the violent reaction to Task Force Ranger's later assault on the Olympic Hotel.

I thought it was 10,000 total personnel, and not all at one time due to rotations and such?Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

I thought it was 10,000 total personnel, and not all at one time due to rotations and such?

Some in the US are calling for another round of ground forces in Somalia. We didn't learn last time that even with more than 10,000 soldiers on the ground, not

..