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>

> This has never been their stance, but only your interpretation of

it.

> This is something I tried to tell you the last time this topic

came

> up on Supertraining.

***** Now I haven't checked out the official Crossfit page for a

while, but for the longest time one of their famous icons was a

cartoon character throwing up. During workshops they made a big

deal about the puke buckets they have available. So everytime I

hear the argument that this is not their thing, I have to say that

they send out a mixed message.

>

> Chip, could it be that you also post videos on sites such as

YouTube

> with crossfit as one of the search terms? Looking at all 9 videos

> you've posted to date you have used crossfit as a search term in

every

> video:

>

> http://www.youtube.com/Bodytribe1

>

***** I'm not anti-Crossfit, nor am I a complete idiot to

marketing. If I have a rep, however small, amongst folks interested

in Crossfit, then it seems like a good label to tag on my videos.

Heck, I'd use the label 'clubbell' if I didn't get a storm of

nonsense from their legal department everytime I give them free

press without being a certified CST instructor.

Being a fan of community and networking, I feel I need to keep

stating that I am not opposed to the Crossfit protocol. It is a

wonderful tool for an expanded toolbox, but, as with many ideologies

(CHEK, Pavel, even a bunch of the T-Nation stuff) there needs to be

a discerning eye to separate hyperbole from reality.

You have the experience and time under the bar to find what works

and what doesn't, and have found Crossfit to work to your

advantage. Others jump feet first at anything 'different' or 'new,'

whether it's commercially supported fluff like much of what hits the

IHRSA showroom each year, or a burgeoning underground fitness scene

that might have some serious meat to it.

As a student of Mel's, do you think he'd openly embrace Crossfit

without applying his comprehensive approach? That's all I ask,

because 3 or 4 years ago, when I first started watching the growth

of the concept and actually met some of the players, there was a lot

of vernacular being throw around that seemed right off the pages of

Mel's Guru Terminology Kit.

Chip Conrad

Bodytribe Fitness

Sacramento, CA

www.physicalsubculture.com

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  • 1 year later...

Dear phantom

you posted the following

" " Well, I always go back to Mel's comment about there not being any grand

unified theory of training. I've always taken a basic program and then altered

it to meet the individual's needs, just as I consider a starting point on form

and then help the individual find their proper form. " "

No truer words have been spoken on this topic.

I have come across as i'm sure you all have hundreds of programs, none have been

bad nor great, but all have taught me. Some have taught me what to do and some

to be honest have taught me of what not to do.

Rahme

sydney australia

[Mod: The below is from the archives:

" " Medvedev emphasized to me: " There is no such

thing as one Russian system - we have many coaches and guidelines and each

coach is allowed to develop his own system. It is the Americans who are so

rigid , not us - they want fast foods, fast formulae and fixed programs that

are easy to apply " .

He nodded in agreement when I commented: " You mean something like a sporting

Macs where you can drive up and get a training program off a menu

without waiting? " Sad and amusing, but all too often, true in America. Why

do you think that muscle building, fitness, strength training, sports,

rehabilitation and health books sell best if they offer rigidly devised set

exercise routines for anyone and everyone, without much attempt at in-depth

analysis or individualisation?]

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Dear phantom

you posted the following

" " Well, I always go back to Mel's comment about there not being any grand

unified theory of training. I've always taken a basic program and then altered

it to meet the individual's needs, just as I consider a starting point on form

and then help the individual find their proper form. " "

No truer words have been spoken on this topic.

I have come across as i'm sure you all have hundreds of programs, none have been

bad nor great, but all have taught me. Some have taught me what to do and some

to be honest have taught me of what not to do.

Rahme

sydney australia

[Mod: The below is from the archives:

" " Medvedev emphasized to me: " There is no such

thing as one Russian system - we have many coaches and guidelines and each

coach is allowed to develop his own system. It is the Americans who are so

rigid , not us - they want fast foods, fast formulae and fixed programs that

are easy to apply " .

He nodded in agreement when I commented: " You mean something like a sporting

Macs where you can drive up and get a training program off a menu

without waiting? " Sad and amusing, but all too often, true in America. Why

do you think that muscle building, fitness, strength training, sports,

rehabilitation and health books sell best if they offer rigidly devised set

exercise routines for anyone and everyone, without much attempt at in-depth

analysis or individualisation?]

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I am sure this topic has been run into the ground by this point. I

am not trying to get argumentative or defensive for or against the

CrossFit model.

" CrossFit is a core strength and conditioning program. We have

designed our program to elicit as broad an adaptational response as

possible. CrossFit is not a specialized fitness program but a

deliberate attempt to optimize physical competence in each of ten

recognized fitness domains. They are Cardiovascular and Respiratory

endurance, Stamina, Strength, Flexibility, Power, Speed,

Coordination, Agility, Balance, and Accuracy. "

That is a direct quote from the CrossaFit Journal " Foundations " .

Rational thought would suggest that MOST coaches/trainers understand

that this does not suggest generality in any way implies a " one-size

fits all " approach. This to me suggests incompetence on the part of

the coach/trainer, not of the method of training.

I am not a " CrossFitter " myself, but I have tried some of their

workouts.

Sam Bretatc LAT, CSCS

Lees Summit,MO, USA

>

>

> Hello Everyone:

>  

> I'd like to respond to this Cross Fit article.  There are

compelling arguments for both sides of the coin.  First, I will tell

you that I have trained clients with this protocol, but I have

modified some of the standards used.  And of course, I always

consider my audience.

>  

> Before we get started with my long winded opinion I will tell you

that before I have my clients do anything I do it first.  At 51

that's not always the best or brightest thing to do, but as a

teacher, in some respects, that's what I truly believe.  It has lead

to some injuries to myself, but my clients have been better for it.

>  

> I went to three local Cross Fit facilities.  I signed up for three

classes at each to get an idea of what was really going on.  I was

asked to sign a waiver. Other than that there was no questions about

limitations or any type of medical issues that might prevent me from

working in the Cross Fit style.  There was absolutely no testing

protocols in place.  There were six-20 people in the classes of all

different fitness levels and goals (which I learned by chatting

before and after).  Everyone did the same thing.  Additionally,

Kettle Bells were used.  The weights were assigned by the instructor

coming up to you looking you up and down and saying, " Mark, I think

you'll be good with the 35# Kettle Bells " .

>  

> I got a good cardiovascular workout and did have some muscle

soreness.  Now for the everyday client who is bored with traditional

weight training and needs changes frequently this is just what I need

to keep them motivated.  The problem I have especially with beginners

is how do you fill up a 45 minutes session with this?  You don't.  I

don't know many people that can do these protocols for longer than 20

minutes.  Besides the directions are usually 3-Rounds for time. 

There are exceptions like " Murph " or " Fight Gone Bad " .  They by the

nature of the rounds take a longer time to complete------if they can

be completed. 

>  

> But, what about the athletes that I train?  Poliquin is

quoted as saying, " You can't sit on two horses if you only have one

arse " .  I have worked with a D-End in the pro ranks.  He came to me

for a very specific reason----Improving performance.  I'm sorry, but

Cross-Fit is not for him.  It won't improve his performance.  To be

fair could it supplement his training by improving his overall

conditioning?  I think so, but not the WoD.  He would need something

tailor made not the one size fits all.  Cross Fit says it meets the

needs of all athletes.  I beg to differ.

>  

> The other issues I have and also keep my clients a safe distance

from are complex lifts for most every day people.  Olympic lifts

especially reps of those in the 10 or more category is an accident

waiting to happen.  I would need to spend hours and days trying to

get my clients learn proper form for these lifts.  Additionally, no

one I train who is the average client in one of the gyms where I work

is interested in spending a large volume of time to perfect these

lifts.  And quite frankly I am not interested in the potential for

injury.

>  

> Finally, and then I need another cup of coffee----- I really

question the recovery time.  If you look at CF websites you train for

several days in a row then followed by a rest day.  Over training can

certainly be an issue.  If you focus on pull ups doing 100 and the

next day do 30 power cleans, well I just don't agree with that. 

>  

> In closing, I would say that CF in its pure unadulterated form

might be good for some.  But, in my humble opinion from what I have

seen and experienced it is at best a supplemental training protocol

adjusted for the individual not one size fits all.

>  

>

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I am sure this topic has been run into the ground by this point. I

am not trying to get argumentative or defensive for or against the

CrossFit model.

" CrossFit is a core strength and conditioning program. We have

designed our program to elicit as broad an adaptational response as

possible. CrossFit is not a specialized fitness program but a

deliberate attempt to optimize physical competence in each of ten

recognized fitness domains. They are Cardiovascular and Respiratory

endurance, Stamina, Strength, Flexibility, Power, Speed,

Coordination, Agility, Balance, and Accuracy. "

That is a direct quote from the CrossaFit Journal " Foundations " .

Rational thought would suggest that MOST coaches/trainers understand

that this does not suggest generality in any way implies a " one-size

fits all " approach. This to me suggests incompetence on the part of

the coach/trainer, not of the method of training.

I am not a " CrossFitter " myself, but I have tried some of their

workouts.

Sam Bretatc LAT, CSCS

Lees Summit,MO, USA

>

>

> Hello Everyone:

>  

> I'd like to respond to this Cross Fit article.  There are

compelling arguments for both sides of the coin.  First, I will tell

you that I have trained clients with this protocol, but I have

modified some of the standards used.  And of course, I always

consider my audience.

>  

> Before we get started with my long winded opinion I will tell you

that before I have my clients do anything I do it first.  At 51

that's not always the best or brightest thing to do, but as a

teacher, in some respects, that's what I truly believe.  It has lead

to some injuries to myself, but my clients have been better for it.

>  

> I went to three local Cross Fit facilities.  I signed up for three

classes at each to get an idea of what was really going on.  I was

asked to sign a waiver. Other than that there was no questions about

limitations or any type of medical issues that might prevent me from

working in the Cross Fit style.  There was absolutely no testing

protocols in place.  There were six-20 people in the classes of all

different fitness levels and goals (which I learned by chatting

before and after).  Everyone did the same thing.  Additionally,

Kettle Bells were used.  The weights were assigned by the instructor

coming up to you looking you up and down and saying, " Mark, I think

you'll be good with the 35# Kettle Bells " .

>  

> I got a good cardiovascular workout and did have some muscle

soreness.  Now for the everyday client who is bored with traditional

weight training and needs changes frequently this is just what I need

to keep them motivated.  The problem I have especially with beginners

is how do you fill up a 45 minutes session with this?  You don't.  I

don't know many people that can do these protocols for longer than 20

minutes.  Besides the directions are usually 3-Rounds for time. 

There are exceptions like " Murph " or " Fight Gone Bad " .  They by the

nature of the rounds take a longer time to complete------if they can

be completed. 

>  

> But, what about the athletes that I train?  Poliquin is

quoted as saying, " You can't sit on two horses if you only have one

arse " .  I have worked with a D-End in the pro ranks.  He came to me

for a very specific reason----Improving performance.  I'm sorry, but

Cross-Fit is not for him.  It won't improve his performance.  To be

fair could it supplement his training by improving his overall

conditioning?  I think so, but not the WoD.  He would need something

tailor made not the one size fits all.  Cross Fit says it meets the

needs of all athletes.  I beg to differ.

>  

> The other issues I have and also keep my clients a safe distance

from are complex lifts for most every day people.  Olympic lifts

especially reps of those in the 10 or more category is an accident

waiting to happen.  I would need to spend hours and days trying to

get my clients learn proper form for these lifts.  Additionally, no

one I train who is the average client in one of the gyms where I work

is interested in spending a large volume of time to perfect these

lifts.  And quite frankly I am not interested in the potential for

injury.

>  

> Finally, and then I need another cup of coffee----- I really

question the recovery time.  If you look at CF websites you train for

several days in a row then followed by a rest day.  Over training can

certainly be an issue.  If you focus on pull ups doing 100 and the

next day do 30 power cleans, well I just don't agree with that. 

>  

> In closing, I would say that CF in its pure unadulterated form

might be good for some.  But, in my humble opinion from what I have

seen and experienced it is at best a supplemental training protocol

adjusted for the individual not one size fits all.

>  

>

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I have witnessed training regimens and I am aware of the complexities of

training advanced athletes. And yes there person making claims should provide

evidence to support them. Since I am not in contact with Glassman but have read

your posts I felt I perhaps with your knowledge and experience you could provide

information that supports the point that the claims made are false.

As I said before I am not a proponent of Crossfit but I don't merely accept

or dimiss any type of training simply based on someones opinion. I was taught

many years ago that if someone makes statements or claims ask for proof or at

least direction to find eveidence to support or refute it.

I apologize if you are aware of any studies or research tires you. I guess that

my assumption that you would be willing to provide someone who dosen't have

quite the background you do with substantive information on issues was

incorrect.

Lee Robillard

Mississauga, Ontario

=============================

Canada

Subject: Re: Crossfit

To: Supertraining

Received: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 2:20 PM

You should ask for evidence in the first place to the one who makes

the claims, not from me.

Second, I'm tired of ppl asking for " studies " , for everything, no

offense here. What do you think, which elite athlete pair will risk

their future for a " study " to prove or disprove Glassman's claim on

the that for gaining a hundred of a second in 100m sprint probe his

idea of GPP is better than special sport training, as suggested by his

claims. Can you give a phone call to and Bolt ? So we can play with them

doing Crossfit ?

Anyway, if you understand programming and organization of training and

if you ever witnessed the training regimen and the complexity of

training of advanced athletes in various Olympic sports and their

*results* from SAID training program you will understand.

Dan Partelly

Oradea, Romania

>

> Hi Dan,

>

> I am not a CrossFit proponent. I have tried a couple of classes out

of curiosity and found they were alright but nothing I'd jump into

whole-heartedly. I don't think it is the end all and be all that SOME

CrossFit members believe but nor do I think any system or training

protocol is the only one that is any good. I have been reading the

posts here on this subject and both sides, if that is the appropriate

term, make valid points.

>

> I am curious though,  you went through the post by and

dismissed the statements as blatantly false or opinion or

unsubstantiated by any evidence. Is there evidence, relating

specifically to Crossfit,  to support your belief these statements are

false?  I guess it would have to be studies that have been conducted

to prove or disprove them. If so I would be interested in reading

them. I am quite frequently asked about Crossfit and while I can give

my opinion and relate my experiences with it, having documented

studies to refer to would be a huge benefit.

> I don't doubt your knowledge or experience however without something

tangible to support it, it is just one persons opinion.

>  

> Thanks for your help,

>  

> Lee Robillard

> Mississauga,  Ontario

> Canada

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I have witnessed training regimens and I am aware of the complexities of

training advanced athletes. And yes there person making claims should provide

evidence to support them. Since I am not in contact with Glassman but have read

your posts I felt I perhaps with your knowledge and experience you could provide

information that supports the point that the claims made are false.

As I said before I am not a proponent of Crossfit but I don't merely accept

or dimiss any type of training simply based on someones opinion. I was taught

many years ago that if someone makes statements or claims ask for proof or at

least direction to find eveidence to support or refute it.

I apologize if you are aware of any studies or research tires you. I guess that

my assumption that you would be willing to provide someone who dosen't have

quite the background you do with substantive information on issues was

incorrect.

Lee Robillard

Mississauga, Ontario

=============================

Canada

Subject: Re: Crossfit

To: Supertraining

Received: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 2:20 PM

You should ask for evidence in the first place to the one who makes

the claims, not from me.

Second, I'm tired of ppl asking for " studies " , for everything, no

offense here. What do you think, which elite athlete pair will risk

their future for a " study " to prove or disprove Glassman's claim on

the that for gaining a hundred of a second in 100m sprint probe his

idea of GPP is better than special sport training, as suggested by his

claims. Can you give a phone call to and Bolt ? So we can play with them

doing Crossfit ?

Anyway, if you understand programming and organization of training and

if you ever witnessed the training regimen and the complexity of

training of advanced athletes in various Olympic sports and their

*results* from SAID training program you will understand.

Dan Partelly

Oradea, Romania

>

> Hi Dan,

>

> I am not a CrossFit proponent. I have tried a couple of classes out

of curiosity and found they were alright but nothing I'd jump into

whole-heartedly. I don't think it is the end all and be all that SOME

CrossFit members believe but nor do I think any system or training

protocol is the only one that is any good. I have been reading the

posts here on this subject and both sides, if that is the appropriate

term, make valid points.

>

> I am curious though,  you went through the post by and

dismissed the statements as blatantly false or opinion or

unsubstantiated by any evidence. Is there evidence, relating

specifically to Crossfit,  to support your belief these statements are

false?  I guess it would have to be studies that have been conducted

to prove or disprove them. If so I would be interested in reading

them. I am quite frequently asked about Crossfit and while I can give

my opinion and relate my experiences with it, having documented

studies to refer to would be a huge benefit.

> I don't doubt your knowledge or experience however without something

tangible to support it, it is just one persons opinion.

>  

> Thanks for your help,

>  

> Lee Robillard

> Mississauga,  Ontario

> Canada

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Here is the direction you are asking for:

Strength and Power in Sport, by Paavo Komi, editor

Adaptation in sport training, A. Viru

read (both books are full of references and studies) and you will have

enough base data to put some things toghether.

Dan Partelly

Oradea, Romania

> >

> > Hi Dan,

> >

> > I am not a CrossFit proponent. I have tried a couple of classes out

> of curiosity and found they were alright but nothing I'd jump into

> whole-heartedly. I don't think it is the end all and be all that SOME

> CrossFit members believe but nor do I think any system or training

> protocol is the only one that is any good. I have been reading the

> posts here on this subject and both sides, if that is the appropriate

> term, make valid points.

> >

> > I am curious though,  you went through the post by and

> dismissed the statements as blatantly false or opinion or

> unsubstantiated by any evidence. Is there evidence, relating

> specifically to Crossfit,  to support your belief these statements are

> false?  I guess it would have to be studies that have been conducted

> to prove or disprove them. If so I would be interested in reading

> them. I am quite frequently asked about Crossfit and while I can give

> my opinion and relate my experiences with it, having documented

> studies to refer to would be a huge benefit.

> > I don't doubt your knowledge or experience however without something

> tangible to support it, it is just one persons opinion.

> >  

> > Thanks for your help,

> >  

> > Lee Robillard

> > Mississauga,  Ontario

> > Canada

>

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> I agree. Studies are sometimes overrated. I would also never want

> to see

> or Bolt CrossFitting.

>

> I have to correct one of your statements though. Glassman isn't

> stating

> that GPP is better than SPP, just that most athletes neglect GPP.

>

> Lee

> Cypress, CA, USA

Phelps, Bolt and race against a clock in cyclical sports with

closed skills. Perhaps CrossFit isn't the best for these athletes. On

the other hand, in sports (Judo, mma, wrestling, football, rugby)

where the other competitor is trying to rip your head off, Cross Fit

sounds like a good fit. So, it's back to the principle of individuality.

_____________________________

Gerald Lafon

USMC, RVN 70-71

Director, Judo America San Diego

Coach, Mira Mesa Weightlifting Club

http://www.judoamerica.com

858 578-7748



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> I agree. Studies are sometimes overrated. I would also never want

> to see

> or Bolt CrossFitting.

>

> I have to correct one of your statements though. Glassman isn't

> stating

> that GPP is better than SPP, just that most athletes neglect GPP.

>

> Lee

> Cypress, CA, USA

Phelps, Bolt and race against a clock in cyclical sports with

closed skills. Perhaps CrossFit isn't the best for these athletes. On

the other hand, in sports (Judo, mma, wrestling, football, rugby)

where the other competitor is trying to rip your head off, Cross Fit

sounds like a good fit. So, it's back to the principle of individuality.

_____________________________

Gerald Lafon

USMC, RVN 70-71

Director, Judo America San Diego

Coach, Mira Mesa Weightlifting Club

http://www.judoamerica.com

858 578-7748



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