Guest guest Posted May 15, 2007 Report Share Posted May 15, 2007 > > This has never been their stance, but only your interpretation of it. > This is something I tried to tell you the last time this topic came > up on Supertraining. ***** Now I haven't checked out the official Crossfit page for a while, but for the longest time one of their famous icons was a cartoon character throwing up. During workshops they made a big deal about the puke buckets they have available. So everytime I hear the argument that this is not their thing, I have to say that they send out a mixed message. > > Chip, could it be that you also post videos on sites such as YouTube > with crossfit as one of the search terms? Looking at all 9 videos > you've posted to date you have used crossfit as a search term in every > video: > > http://www.youtube.com/Bodytribe1 > ***** I'm not anti-Crossfit, nor am I a complete idiot to marketing. If I have a rep, however small, amongst folks interested in Crossfit, then it seems like a good label to tag on my videos. Heck, I'd use the label 'clubbell' if I didn't get a storm of nonsense from their legal department everytime I give them free press without being a certified CST instructor. Being a fan of community and networking, I feel I need to keep stating that I am not opposed to the Crossfit protocol. It is a wonderful tool for an expanded toolbox, but, as with many ideologies (CHEK, Pavel, even a bunch of the T-Nation stuff) there needs to be a discerning eye to separate hyperbole from reality. You have the experience and time under the bar to find what works and what doesn't, and have found Crossfit to work to your advantage. Others jump feet first at anything 'different' or 'new,' whether it's commercially supported fluff like much of what hits the IHRSA showroom each year, or a burgeoning underground fitness scene that might have some serious meat to it. As a student of Mel's, do you think he'd openly embrace Crossfit without applying his comprehensive approach? That's all I ask, because 3 or 4 years ago, when I first started watching the growth of the concept and actually met some of the players, there was a lot of vernacular being throw around that seemed right off the pages of Mel's Guru Terminology Kit. Chip Conrad Bodytribe Fitness Sacramento, CA www.physicalsubculture.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2007 Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 Direct from the horse's mouth: http://www.crossfit.com/journal/ W.G. Ubermensch Sports Consultancy San Diego, CA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Dear phantom you posted the following " " Well, I always go back to Mel's comment about there not being any grand unified theory of training. I've always taken a basic program and then altered it to meet the individual's needs, just as I consider a starting point on form and then help the individual find their proper form. " " No truer words have been spoken on this topic. I have come across as i'm sure you all have hundreds of programs, none have been bad nor great, but all have taught me. Some have taught me what to do and some to be honest have taught me of what not to do. Rahme sydney australia [Mod: The below is from the archives: " " Medvedev emphasized to me: " There is no such thing as one Russian system - we have many coaches and guidelines and each coach is allowed to develop his own system. It is the Americans who are so rigid , not us - they want fast foods, fast formulae and fixed programs that are easy to apply " . He nodded in agreement when I commented: " You mean something like a sporting Macs where you can drive up and get a training program off a menu without waiting? " Sad and amusing, but all too often, true in America. Why do you think that muscle building, fitness, strength training, sports, rehabilitation and health books sell best if they offer rigidly devised set exercise routines for anyone and everyone, without much attempt at in-depth analysis or individualisation?] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Dear phantom you posted the following " " Well, I always go back to Mel's comment about there not being any grand unified theory of training. I've always taken a basic program and then altered it to meet the individual's needs, just as I consider a starting point on form and then help the individual find their proper form. " " No truer words have been spoken on this topic. I have come across as i'm sure you all have hundreds of programs, none have been bad nor great, but all have taught me. Some have taught me what to do and some to be honest have taught me of what not to do. Rahme sydney australia [Mod: The below is from the archives: " " Medvedev emphasized to me: " There is no such thing as one Russian system - we have many coaches and guidelines and each coach is allowed to develop his own system. It is the Americans who are so rigid , not us - they want fast foods, fast formulae and fixed programs that are easy to apply " . He nodded in agreement when I commented: " You mean something like a sporting Macs where you can drive up and get a training program off a menu without waiting? " Sad and amusing, but all too often, true in America. Why do you think that muscle building, fitness, strength training, sports, rehabilitation and health books sell best if they offer rigidly devised set exercise routines for anyone and everyone, without much attempt at in-depth analysis or individualisation?] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 I am sure this topic has been run into the ground by this point. I am not trying to get argumentative or defensive for or against the CrossFit model. " CrossFit is a core strength and conditioning program. We have designed our program to elicit as broad an adaptational response as possible. CrossFit is not a specialized fitness program but a deliberate attempt to optimize physical competence in each of ten recognized fitness domains. They are Cardiovascular and Respiratory endurance, Stamina, Strength, Flexibility, Power, Speed, Coordination, Agility, Balance, and Accuracy. " That is a direct quote from the CrossaFit Journal " Foundations " . Rational thought would suggest that MOST coaches/trainers understand that this does not suggest generality in any way implies a " one-size fits all " approach. This to me suggests incompetence on the part of the coach/trainer, not of the method of training. I am not a " CrossFitter " myself, but I have tried some of their workouts. Sam Bretatc LAT, CSCS Lees Summit,MO, USA > > > Hello Everyone: > > I'd like to respond to this Cross Fit article. There are compelling arguments for both sides of the coin. First, I will tell you that I have trained clients with this protocol, but I have modified some of the standards used. And of course, I always consider my audience. > > Before we get started with my long winded opinion I will tell you that before I have my clients do anything I do it first. At 51 that's not always the best or brightest thing to do, but as a teacher, in some respects, that's what I truly believe. It has lead to some injuries to myself, but my clients have been better for it. > > I went to three local Cross Fit facilities. I signed up for three classes at each to get an idea of what was really going on. I was asked to sign a waiver. Other than that there was no questions about limitations or any type of medical issues that might prevent me from working in the Cross Fit style. There was absolutely no testing protocols in place. There were six-20 people in the classes of all different fitness levels and goals (which I learned by chatting before and after). Everyone did the same thing. Additionally, Kettle Bells were used. The weights were assigned by the instructor coming up to you looking you up and down and saying, " Mark, I think you'll be good with the 35# Kettle Bells " . > > I got a good cardiovascular workout and did have some muscle soreness. Now for the everyday client who is bored with traditional weight training and needs changes frequently this is just what I need to keep them motivated. The problem I have especially with beginners is how do you fill up a 45 minutes session with this? You don't. I don't know many people that can do these protocols for longer than 20 minutes. Besides the directions are usually 3-Rounds for time. There are exceptions like " Murph " or " Fight Gone Bad " . They by the nature of the rounds take a longer time to complete------if they can be completed. > > But, what about the athletes that I train? Poliquin is quoted as saying, " You can't sit on two horses if you only have one arse " . I have worked with a D-End in the pro ranks. He came to me for a very specific reason----Improving performance. I'm sorry, but Cross-Fit is not for him. It won't improve his performance. To be fair could it supplement his training by improving his overall conditioning? I think so, but not the WoD. He would need something tailor made not the one size fits all. Cross Fit says it meets the needs of all athletes. I beg to differ. > > The other issues I have and also keep my clients a safe distance from are complex lifts for most every day people. Olympic lifts especially reps of those in the 10 or more category is an accident waiting to happen. I would need to spend hours and days trying to get my clients learn proper form for these lifts. Additionally, no one I train who is the average client in one of the gyms where I work is interested in spending a large volume of time to perfect these lifts. And quite frankly I am not interested in the potential for injury. > > Finally, and then I need another cup of coffee----- I really question the recovery time. If you look at CF websites you train for several days in a row then followed by a rest day. Over training can certainly be an issue. If you focus on pull ups doing 100 and the next day do 30 power cleans, well I just don't agree with that. > > In closing, I would say that CF in its pure unadulterated form might be good for some. But, in my humble opinion from what I have seen and experienced it is at best a supplemental training protocol adjusted for the individual not one size fits all. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 I am sure this topic has been run into the ground by this point. I am not trying to get argumentative or defensive for or against the CrossFit model. " CrossFit is a core strength and conditioning program. We have designed our program to elicit as broad an adaptational response as possible. CrossFit is not a specialized fitness program but a deliberate attempt to optimize physical competence in each of ten recognized fitness domains. They are Cardiovascular and Respiratory endurance, Stamina, Strength, Flexibility, Power, Speed, Coordination, Agility, Balance, and Accuracy. " That is a direct quote from the CrossaFit Journal " Foundations " . Rational thought would suggest that MOST coaches/trainers understand that this does not suggest generality in any way implies a " one-size fits all " approach. This to me suggests incompetence on the part of the coach/trainer, not of the method of training. I am not a " CrossFitter " myself, but I have tried some of their workouts. Sam Bretatc LAT, CSCS Lees Summit,MO, USA > > > Hello Everyone: > > I'd like to respond to this Cross Fit article. There are compelling arguments for both sides of the coin. First, I will tell you that I have trained clients with this protocol, but I have modified some of the standards used. And of course, I always consider my audience. > > Before we get started with my long winded opinion I will tell you that before I have my clients do anything I do it first. At 51 that's not always the best or brightest thing to do, but as a teacher, in some respects, that's what I truly believe. It has lead to some injuries to myself, but my clients have been better for it. > > I went to three local Cross Fit facilities. I signed up for three classes at each to get an idea of what was really going on. I was asked to sign a waiver. Other than that there was no questions about limitations or any type of medical issues that might prevent me from working in the Cross Fit style. There was absolutely no testing protocols in place. There were six-20 people in the classes of all different fitness levels and goals (which I learned by chatting before and after). Everyone did the same thing. Additionally, Kettle Bells were used. The weights were assigned by the instructor coming up to you looking you up and down and saying, " Mark, I think you'll be good with the 35# Kettle Bells " . > > I got a good cardiovascular workout and did have some muscle soreness. Now for the everyday client who is bored with traditional weight training and needs changes frequently this is just what I need to keep them motivated. The problem I have especially with beginners is how do you fill up a 45 minutes session with this? You don't. I don't know many people that can do these protocols for longer than 20 minutes. Besides the directions are usually 3-Rounds for time. There are exceptions like " Murph " or " Fight Gone Bad " . They by the nature of the rounds take a longer time to complete------if they can be completed. > > But, what about the athletes that I train? Poliquin is quoted as saying, " You can't sit on two horses if you only have one arse " . I have worked with a D-End in the pro ranks. He came to me for a very specific reason----Improving performance. I'm sorry, but Cross-Fit is not for him. It won't improve his performance. To be fair could it supplement his training by improving his overall conditioning? I think so, but not the WoD. He would need something tailor made not the one size fits all. Cross Fit says it meets the needs of all athletes. I beg to differ. > > The other issues I have and also keep my clients a safe distance from are complex lifts for most every day people. Olympic lifts especially reps of those in the 10 or more category is an accident waiting to happen. I would need to spend hours and days trying to get my clients learn proper form for these lifts. Additionally, no one I train who is the average client in one of the gyms where I work is interested in spending a large volume of time to perfect these lifts. And quite frankly I am not interested in the potential for injury. > > Finally, and then I need another cup of coffee----- I really question the recovery time. If you look at CF websites you train for several days in a row then followed by a rest day. Over training can certainly be an issue. If you focus on pull ups doing 100 and the next day do 30 power cleans, well I just don't agree with that. > > In closing, I would say that CF in its pure unadulterated form might be good for some. But, in my humble opinion from what I have seen and experienced it is at best a supplemental training protocol adjusted for the individual not one size fits all. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 I have witnessed training regimens and I am aware of the complexities of training advanced athletes. And yes there person making claims should provide evidence to support them. Since I am not in contact with Glassman but have read your posts I felt I perhaps with your knowledge and experience you could provide information that supports the point that the claims made are false. As I said before I am not a proponent of Crossfit but I don't merely accept or dimiss any type of training simply based on someones opinion. I was taught many years ago that if someone makes statements or claims ask for proof or at least direction to find eveidence to support or refute it. I apologize if you are aware of any studies or research tires you. I guess that my assumption that you would be willing to provide someone who dosen't have quite the background you do with substantive information on issues was incorrect. Lee Robillard Mississauga, Ontario ============================= Canada Subject: Re: Crossfit To: Supertraining Received: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 2:20 PM You should ask for evidence in the first place to the one who makes the claims, not from me. Second, I'm tired of ppl asking for " studies " , for everything, no offense here. What do you think, which elite athlete pair will risk their future for a " study " to prove or disprove Glassman's claim on the that for gaining a hundred of a second in 100m sprint probe his idea of GPP is better than special sport training, as suggested by his claims. Can you give a phone call to and Bolt ? So we can play with them doing Crossfit ? Anyway, if you understand programming and organization of training and if you ever witnessed the training regimen and the complexity of training of advanced athletes in various Olympic sports and their *results* from SAID training program you will understand. Dan Partelly Oradea, Romania > > Hi Dan, > > I am not a CrossFit proponent. I have tried a couple of classes out of curiosity and found they were alright but nothing I'd jump into whole-heartedly. I don't think it is the end all and be all that SOME CrossFit members believe but nor do I think any system or training protocol is the only one that is any good. I have been reading the posts here on this subject and both sides, if that is the appropriate term, make valid points. > > I am curious though, you went through the post by and dismissed the statements as blatantly false or opinion or unsubstantiated by any evidence. Is there evidence, relating specifically to Crossfit, to support your belief these statements are false? I guess it would have to be studies that have been conducted to prove or disprove them. If so I would be interested in reading them. I am quite frequently asked about Crossfit and while I can give my opinion and relate my experiences with it, having documented studies to refer to would be a huge benefit. > I don't doubt your knowledge or experience however without something tangible to support it, it is just one persons opinion. > > Thanks for your help, > > Lee Robillard > Mississauga, Ontario > Canada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 I have witnessed training regimens and I am aware of the complexities of training advanced athletes. And yes there person making claims should provide evidence to support them. Since I am not in contact with Glassman but have read your posts I felt I perhaps with your knowledge and experience you could provide information that supports the point that the claims made are false. As I said before I am not a proponent of Crossfit but I don't merely accept or dimiss any type of training simply based on someones opinion. I was taught many years ago that if someone makes statements or claims ask for proof or at least direction to find eveidence to support or refute it. I apologize if you are aware of any studies or research tires you. I guess that my assumption that you would be willing to provide someone who dosen't have quite the background you do with substantive information on issues was incorrect. Lee Robillard Mississauga, Ontario ============================= Canada Subject: Re: Crossfit To: Supertraining Received: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 2:20 PM You should ask for evidence in the first place to the one who makes the claims, not from me. Second, I'm tired of ppl asking for " studies " , for everything, no offense here. What do you think, which elite athlete pair will risk their future for a " study " to prove or disprove Glassman's claim on the that for gaining a hundred of a second in 100m sprint probe his idea of GPP is better than special sport training, as suggested by his claims. Can you give a phone call to and Bolt ? So we can play with them doing Crossfit ? Anyway, if you understand programming and organization of training and if you ever witnessed the training regimen and the complexity of training of advanced athletes in various Olympic sports and their *results* from SAID training program you will understand. Dan Partelly Oradea, Romania > > Hi Dan, > > I am not a CrossFit proponent. I have tried a couple of classes out of curiosity and found they were alright but nothing I'd jump into whole-heartedly. I don't think it is the end all and be all that SOME CrossFit members believe but nor do I think any system or training protocol is the only one that is any good. I have been reading the posts here on this subject and both sides, if that is the appropriate term, make valid points. > > I am curious though, you went through the post by and dismissed the statements as blatantly false or opinion or unsubstantiated by any evidence. Is there evidence, relating specifically to Crossfit, to support your belief these statements are false? I guess it would have to be studies that have been conducted to prove or disprove them. If so I would be interested in reading them. I am quite frequently asked about Crossfit and while I can give my opinion and relate my experiences with it, having documented studies to refer to would be a huge benefit. > I don't doubt your knowledge or experience however without something tangible to support it, it is just one persons opinion. > > Thanks for your help, > > Lee Robillard > Mississauga, Ontario > Canada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Here is the direction you are asking for: Strength and Power in Sport, by Paavo Komi, editor Adaptation in sport training, A. Viru read (both books are full of references and studies) and you will have enough base data to put some things toghether. Dan Partelly Oradea, Romania > > > > Hi Dan, > > > > I am not a CrossFit proponent. I have tried a couple of classes out > of curiosity and found they were alright but nothing I'd jump into > whole-heartedly. I don't think it is the end all and be all that SOME > CrossFit members believe but nor do I think any system or training > protocol is the only one that is any good. I have been reading the > posts here on this subject and both sides, if that is the appropriate > term, make valid points. > > > > I am curious though, you went through the post by and > dismissed the statements as blatantly false or opinion or > unsubstantiated by any evidence. Is there evidence, relating > specifically to Crossfit, to support your belief these statements are > false? I guess it would have to be studies that have been conducted > to prove or disprove them. If so I would be interested in reading > them. I am quite frequently asked about Crossfit and while I can give > my opinion and relate my experiences with it, having documented > studies to refer to would be a huge benefit. > > I don't doubt your knowledge or experience however without something > tangible to support it, it is just one persons opinion. > > > > Thanks for your help, > > > > Lee Robillard > > Mississauga, Ontario > > Canada > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 > I agree. Studies are sometimes overrated. I would also never want > to see > or Bolt CrossFitting. > > I have to correct one of your statements though. Glassman isn't > stating > that GPP is better than SPP, just that most athletes neglect GPP. > > Lee > Cypress, CA, USA Phelps, Bolt and race against a clock in cyclical sports with closed skills. Perhaps CrossFit isn't the best for these athletes. On the other hand, in sports (Judo, mma, wrestling, football, rugby) where the other competitor is trying to rip your head off, Cross Fit sounds like a good fit. So, it's back to the principle of individuality. _____________________________ Gerald Lafon USMC, RVN 70-71 Director, Judo America San Diego Coach, Mira Mesa Weightlifting Club http://www.judoamerica.com 858 578-7748  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 > I agree. Studies are sometimes overrated. I would also never want > to see > or Bolt CrossFitting. > > I have to correct one of your statements though. Glassman isn't > stating > that GPP is better than SPP, just that most athletes neglect GPP. > > Lee > Cypress, CA, USA Phelps, Bolt and race against a clock in cyclical sports with closed skills. Perhaps CrossFit isn't the best for these athletes. On the other hand, in sports (Judo, mma, wrestling, football, rugby) where the other competitor is trying to rip your head off, Cross Fit sounds like a good fit. So, it's back to the principle of individuality. _____________________________ Gerald Lafon USMC, RVN 70-71 Director, Judo America San Diego Coach, Mira Mesa Weightlifting Club http://www.judoamerica.com 858 578-7748  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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