Re: Bicarbonate - Ergogenic Aid

[Guest guest]

Ok at this point I'd like to hear from Krieger - wasn't bicarbonate

loading specifically busted with regard to powerlifting in " Pure Power " magazine

some time ago?

The only thing I've recently heard in the gyms is some thinking that taking a

" TUMS " will help on recovery....but that has made a few people extremely SICK

trying it too....which is worse, sore muscles or hurling violently lol. I'll

take DOMS for 200, ....

I don't know anybody who uses the bicarbonate nor have I heard anybody competing

at meets I've been at proclaim the usefulness of worrying their pH. The only

worry I have is staying sufficiently hydrated and energized, and yeah, that's a

POWERADE TM thing with me, nothing more.

(side note: even effervescent creatine with its fizzy component has been a

problem for a few people I've trained with in the past, causing severe

nausea/gas and a feeling like lifting after intake a very bad idea? one guy

drank some on the way to a workout and felt SO bad he bought water and drank it

on the way in...trying desperately to settle his stomach. regular creatine

didn't induce this so perhaps the bicarbonate isn't going to work for some

people at all?).

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

====================

-------------- Original message --------------

Dan, I gather you are disputing the efficacy of bicarbonate as an

ergogenic aid.

I posted the Tipton and Jeukendrup paper because they are highly

respected scientists in the field of sports nutrition and metabolism.

I don't have a copy of the paper in full.

However, I think it is fair to say that there are three legal

ergogenic supplements that most sports scientists agree do offer some

advantage for some athletes, in some events. The evidence is

relatively mature.

They are creatine, caffeine and bicarbonate.

You can see a summary of the evidence for bicarbonate (and citrate)

at the following link. (More recent evidence may also be available.)

http://www.ais.org.au/nutrition/documents/T16.5Bicarbonate.pdf

And a fact sheet, with appropriate doses etc here:

http://www.ais.org.au/nutrition/documents/SupBicarbonate07.pdf

As a point of interest, and for the original poster, there is also

this paper:

Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2007 Apr;17(2):206-17. Does sodium-

bicarbonate ingestion improve simulated judo performance? Artioli GG,

Gualano B, Coelho DF, Benatti FB, Gailey AW, Lancha AH Jr.

" In conclusion, sodium bicarbonate improves judo-related performance

and increases blood lactate concentration but has no effect on

perceived exertion. "

If you dispute the utility of bicarbonate as an ergogenic aid, I

would welcome a comprehensive formulated rebuttal of the evidence.

Gympie, Australia

> > >

> > >

> > > The buffer capacity is of importance during performance drawing

> > energy

> > > from anaerobic glycolysis.

> > >

> > > Typically, a correct designed training programs for developing

a

> > high

> > > anaerobic working capacity will (with respect to the ability to

> > handle

> > > acidosis alone ):

> > >

> > > - increase the buffer capacity of the muscles through reserve

> > alkali.

> > > Note that the probably the main buffer used in muscles is a

protein

> > > based buffer.

> > >

> > > - adaptive protein synthesis will create isozymes able to

operate

> > > efficiently at reduced pH

> > >

> > >

> > > A correct designed conditioning program will most likely have a

much

> > > more powerful effect on performance then indiscriminately eating

> > > " bicarbonate " or other alkaline substances to keep " body

alkaline " .

> > > Your MMA performer was probably well payed to praise that

> > supplement.

> > > For most of the supplements in existence, the effect and

utility

> > is

> > > at most speculative.

> > >

> > > Dan Partelly

> > > Oradea, Romania

[Guest guest]

, in the context of this discussion concerning

Body pH, I think that it is very important to note

that Bicarbonate does not alter the body pH nor does

it decrease the production of Lactate.

When and if it does work, it improves the buffering

capacity of blood.

With regards to caffeine readers should know the

following:

<<Caffeine use is not banned by the International

Olympic Committee (IOC), but its use is regulated: an

athlete with a urine caffeine concentration in excess

of 12 mg/l is considered to have committed a doping

offense....

An intake of 800mg of caffeine ( equivalent of 8 cups

of coffee or 8 cans of Red Bull) would be needed by

the average person to reach the urine level that will

result in disqualification. However, the amount may

vary depending on the athlete’s body mass, gender,

body composition and recent fluid intake

http://www.medicdirectsport.com/sportsnutrition/default.asp?step=4 & pid=83

>>

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct USA

--- sregor99 wrote:

> Dan, I gather you are disputing the efficacy of

> bicarbonate as an

> ergogenic aid.

>

> I posted the Tipton and Jeukendrup paper because

> they are highly

> respected scientists in the field of sports

> nutrition and metabolism.

> I don't have a copy of the paper in full.

>

> However, I think it is fair to say that there are

> three legal

> ergogenic supplements that most sports scientists

> agree do offer some

> advantage for some athletes, in some events. The

> evidence is

> relatively mature.

>

> They are creatine, caffeine and bicarbonate.

>

> You can see a summary of the evidence for

> bicarbonate (and citrate)

> at the following link. (More recent evidence may

> also be available.)

>

>

http://www.ais.org.au/nutrition/documents/T16.5Bicarbonate.pdf

>

> And a fact sheet, with appropriate doses etc here:

>

>

http://www.ais.org.au/nutrition/documents/SupBicarbonate07.pdf

>

> As a point of interest, and for the original poster,

> there is also

> this paper:

>

> Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2007 Apr;17(2):206-17.

> Does sodium-

> bicarbonate ingestion improve simulated judo

> performance? Artioli GG,

> Gualano B, Coelho DF, Benatti FB, Gailey AW, Lancha

> AH Jr.

>

> " In conclusion, sodium bicarbonate improves

> judo-related performance

> and increases blood lactate concentration but has no

> effect on

> perceived exertion. "

>

> If you dispute the utility of bicarbonate as an

> ergogenic aid, I

> would welcome a comprehensive formulated rebuttal of

> the evidence.

>

>

> Gympie, Australia

>

>

>

>

>

> >

> >

> > The paper in question only says:

> >

> > *******************

> > Beta-alanine and bicarbonate ***may be*** useful

> as buffering agents

> > in longer sprints.

> > *******************

> >

> > " May be " is far from " irrefutable " . If you can

> mail me the whole

> paper

> > I would be delighted to read it, for the abstract

> doesn't say much.

> >

> > Dan Partelly

> > Oradea, ROmania

> >

[Guest guest]

, in the context of this discussion concerning

Body pH, I think that it is very important to note

that Bicarbonate does not alter the body pH nor does

it decrease the production of Lactate.

When and if it does work, it improves the buffering

capacity of blood.

With regards to caffeine readers should know the

following:

<<Caffeine use is not banned by the International

Olympic Committee (IOC), but its use is regulated: an

athlete with a urine caffeine concentration in excess

of 12 mg/l is considered to have committed a doping

offense....

An intake of 800mg of caffeine ( equivalent of 8 cups

of coffee or 8 cans of Red Bull) would be needed by

the average person to reach the urine level that will

result in disqualification. However, the amount may

vary depending on the athlete’s body mass, gender,

body composition and recent fluid intake

http://www.medicdirectsport.com/sportsnutrition/default.asp?step=4 & pid=83

>>

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct USA

--- sregor99 wrote:

> Dan, I gather you are disputing the efficacy of

> bicarbonate as an

> ergogenic aid.

>

> I posted the Tipton and Jeukendrup paper because

> they are highly

> respected scientists in the field of sports

> nutrition and metabolism.

> I don't have a copy of the paper in full.

>

> However, I think it is fair to say that there are

> three legal

> ergogenic supplements that most sports scientists

> agree do offer some

> advantage for some athletes, in some events. The

> evidence is

> relatively mature.

>

> They are creatine, caffeine and bicarbonate.

>

> You can see a summary of the evidence for

> bicarbonate (and citrate)

> at the following link. (More recent evidence may

> also be available.)

>

>

http://www.ais.org.au/nutrition/documents/T16.5Bicarbonate.pdf

>

> And a fact sheet, with appropriate doses etc here:

>

>

http://www.ais.org.au/nutrition/documents/SupBicarbonate07.pdf

>

> As a point of interest, and for the original poster,

> there is also

> this paper:

>

> Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2007 Apr;17(2):206-17.

> Does sodium-

> bicarbonate ingestion improve simulated judo

> performance? Artioli GG,

> Gualano B, Coelho DF, Benatti FB, Gailey AW, Lancha

> AH Jr.

>

> " In conclusion, sodium bicarbonate improves

> judo-related performance

> and increases blood lactate concentration but has no

> effect on

> perceived exertion. "

>

> If you dispute the utility of bicarbonate as an

> ergogenic aid, I

> would welcome a comprehensive formulated rebuttal of

> the evidence.

>

>

> Gympie, Australia

>

>

>

>

>

> >

> >

> > The paper in question only says:

> >

> > *******************

> > Beta-alanine and bicarbonate ***may be*** useful

> as buffering agents

> > in longer sprints.

> > *******************

> >

> > " May be " is far from " irrefutable " . If you can

> mail me the whole

> paper

> > I would be delighted to read it, for the abstract

> doesn't say much.

> >

> > Dan Partelly

> > Oradea, ROmania

> >

[Guest guest]

>

> Ok at this point I'd like to hear from Krieger - wasn't

bicarbonate loading specifically busted with regard to powerlifting

in " Pure Power " magazine some time ago?

>

> The only thing I've recently heard in the gyms is some thinking

that taking a " TUMS " will help on recovery....but that has made a few

people extremely SICK trying it too....which is worse, sore muscles

or hurling violently lol. I'll take DOMS for 200, ....

>

> I don't know anybody who uses the bicarbonate nor have I heard

anybody competing at meets I've been at proclaim the usefulness of

worrying their pH. The only worry I have is staying sufficiently

hydrated and energized, and yeah, that's a POWERADE TM thing with me,

nothing more.

>

> (side note: even effervescent creatine with its fizzy component

has been a problem for a few people I've trained with in the past,

causing severe nausea/gas and a feeling like lifting after intake a

very bad idea? one guy drank some on the way to a workout and felt

SO bad he bought water and drank it on the way in...trying

desperately to settle his stomach. regular creatine didn't induce

this so perhaps the bicarbonate isn't going to work for some people

at all?).

>

****

Some users can't tolerate it well and suffer from gastrointestinal

problems - hence you may be busting for something:) Recommended

usage (there is a high degree of individuality and athletes

should " experiment " ) is 0.3 g per kg body mass. I'm not entirely sure why any

powerlifter would use sodium bicarbonate (weight loss?).

Carruthers

Wakefield, UK

[Guest guest]

,

buffer capacity has 0 influence in sports like yours. Powerlifters

don't need any kind of increased buffer capacity at meets.

It true that bicarbonate can have adverse reactions, but not everybody

has them. Some can ingest a lot without any ill effects.

Dan Partelly

Oradea, Romania

>

> Ok at this point I'd like to hear from Krieger - wasn't

bicarbonate loading specifically busted with regard to powerlifting in

" Pure Power " magazine some time ago?

>

> The only thing I've recently heard in the gyms is some thinking that

taking a " TUMS " will help on recovery....but that has made a few

people extremely SICK trying it too....which is worse, sore muscles or

hurling violently lol. I'll take DOMS for 200, ....

>

> I don't know anybody who uses the bicarbonate nor have I heard

anybody competing at meets I've been at proclaim the usefulness of

worrying their pH. The only worry I have is staying sufficiently

hydrated and energized, and yeah, that's a POWERADE TM thing with me,

nothing more.

>

> (side note: even effervescent creatine with its fizzy component has

been a problem for a few people I've trained with in the past, causing

severe nausea/gas and a feeling like lifting after intake a very bad

idea? one guy drank some on the way to a workout and felt SO bad he

bought water and drank it on the way in...trying desperately to settle

his stomach. regular creatine didn't induce this so perhaps the

bicarbonate isn't going to work for some people at all?).

>

> The Phantom

> aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter

> Denver, Colorado, USA

>

> ====================

> -------------- Original message --------------

>

> Dan, I gather you are disputing the efficacy of bicarbonate as an

> ergogenic aid.

>

> I posted the Tipton and Jeukendrup paper because they are highly

> respected scientists in the field of sports nutrition and metabolism.

> I don't have a copy of the paper in full.

>

> However, I think it is fair to say that there are three legal

> ergogenic supplements that most sports scientists agree do offer some

> advantage for some athletes, in some events. The evidence is

> relatively mature.

>

> They are creatine, caffeine and bicarbonate.

>

> You can see a summary of the evidence for bicarbonate (and citrate)

> at the following link. (More recent evidence may also be available.)

>

> http://www.ais.org.au/nutrition/documents/T16.5Bicarbonate.pdf

>

> And a fact sheet, with appropriate doses etc here:

>

> http://www.ais.org.au/nutrition/documents/SupBicarbonate07.pdf

>

> As a point of interest, and for the original poster, there is also

> this paper:

>

> Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2007 Apr;17(2):206-17. Does sodium-

> bicarbonate ingestion improve simulated judo performance? Artioli GG,

> Gualano B, Coelho DF, Benatti FB, Gailey AW, Lancha AH Jr.

>

> " In conclusion, sodium bicarbonate improves judo-related performance

> and increases blood lactate concentration but has no effect on

> perceived exertion. "

>

> If you dispute the utility of bicarbonate as an ergogenic aid, I

> would welcome a comprehensive formulated rebuttal of the evidence.

>

>

> Gympie, Australia

[Guest guest]

The reasoning in powerlifting is based apparently on the duration of workouts,

and work capacity.

Also some consideration that people might want to load for the duration of a

competition. Apparently outside our sport few people realize the endurance

required to do three maximal lift competitions, which span hours, and

essentially require three warmups, and then maximal attempts on the platform.

So the topic had come up more than once (hatfield discusses it in a book too)

and as I said, Krieger might spread better light on this as I think he did

the article for " Pure Power " magazine.

Anyway I know he lurks around here at times and perhaps he would comment.

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

-------------- Original message --------------

>

> Ok at this point I'd like to hear from Krieger - wasn't

bicarbonate loading specifically busted with regard to powerlifting

in " Pure Power " magazine some time ago?

>

> The only thing I've recently heard in the gyms is some thinking

that taking a " TUMS " will help on recovery....but that has made a few

people extremely SICK trying it too....which is worse, sore muscles

or hurling violently lol. I'll take DOMS for 200, ....

>

> I don't know anybody who uses the bicarbonate nor have I heard

anybody competing at meets I've been at proclaim the usefulness of

worrying their pH. The only worry I have is staying sufficiently

hydrated and energized, and yeah, that's a POWERADE TM thing with me,

nothing more.

>

> (side note: even effervescent creatine with its fizzy component

has been a problem for a few people I've trained with in the past,

causing severe nausea/gas and a feeling like lifting after intake a

very bad idea? one guy drank some on the way to a workout and felt

SO bad he bought water and drank it on the way in...trying

desperately to settle his stomach. regular creatine didn't induce

this so perhaps the bicarbonate isn't going to work for some people

at all?).

>

=========================

Some users can't tolerate it well and suffer from gastrointestinal

problems - hence you may be busting for something:) Recommended

usage (there is a high degree of individuality and athletes

should " experiment " ) is 0.3 g per kg body mass. I'm not entirely sure why any

powerlifter would use sodium bicarbonate (weight loss?).

=====================

[Guest guest]

,

My thoughts would be that even though a competition may be an

exhausting process overall, the duration of any individual lift (or

even warmup lifts) is very short. In this context, I can't see that

bicarbonate would be useful because the time intervals between

maximum efforts should be sufficient to recycle lactate and dissipate

H+.

Bicarbonate loading seems to be most effective for continuous

anaerobic exercise from 1-7 minutes, although there is a view that

shorter and longer efforts may also benefit to some extent. One can

see how even a few hundredths of a second can be important in 100m

sprinting for example.

Gympie, Australia

> >

> > Ok at this point I'd like to hear from Krieger - wasn't

> bicarbonate loading specifically busted with regard to powerlifting

> in " Pure Power " magazine some time ago?

> >

> > The only thing I've recently heard in the gyms is some thinking

> that taking a " TUMS " will help on recovery....but that has made a

few

> people extremely SICK trying it too....which is worse, sore muscles

> or hurling violently lol. I'll take DOMS for 200, ....

> >

> > I don't know anybody who uses the bicarbonate nor have I heard

> anybody competing at meets I've been at proclaim the usefulness of

> worrying their pH. The only worry I have is staying sufficiently

> hydrated and energized, and yeah, that's a POWERADE TM thing with

me,

> nothing more.

> >

> > (side note: even effervescent creatine with its fizzy component

> has been a problem for a few people I've trained with in the past,

> causing severe nausea/gas and a feeling like lifting after intake a

> very bad idea? one guy drank some on the way to a workout and felt

> SO bad he bought water and drank it on the way in...trying

> desperately to settle his stomach. regular creatine didn't induce

> this so perhaps the bicarbonate isn't going to work for some people

> at all?).

> >

>

> =========================

> Some users can't tolerate it well and suffer from gastrointestinal

> problems - hence you may be busting for something:) Recommended

> usage (there is a high degree of individuality and athletes

> should " experiment " ) is 0.3 g per kg body mass. I'm not entirely

sure why any powerlifter would use sodium bicarbonate (weight loss?).

>

> =====================

>

[Guest guest]

>

> , in the context of this discussion concerning

> Body pH, I think that it is very important to note

> that Bicarbonate does not alter the body pH nor does

> it decrease the production of Lactate.

Yes, but exercise, especially anaerobic exercise, will lower blood pH

(and intra- and extracellular pH). Buffering and regulatory

mechanisms, including respiration, keep this under tight control

close to 7.4. Normal homeostatic mechanisms will eventually control

this in healthy people. However, it seems to me that the relatively

large doses of supplemental bicarb recommended as an ergogenic,

probably work by *accelerating* the dissipation of hydrogen ions --

and as you say this has nothing to do with preventing lactate

production, which may be muscle protective in any case, or with

dramatic movements in pH.

> When and if it does work, it improves the buffering

> capacity of blood.

>

> With regards to caffeine readers should know the

> following:

> <<Caffeine use is not banned by the International

> Olympic Committee (IOC), but its use is regulated: an

> athlete with a urine caffeine concentration in excess

> of 12 mg/l is considered to have committed a doping

> offense....

There is the case of the Australian modern pentathlete who was banned

from the Seoul Olympics because he tested positive after the fencing

event. This case is well known in Australia. He tested at 14 mg/L.

This case caused a review of the existing WADA regulations re

caffeine -- mainly because habitual coffee drinking was associated

with some sporting cultures including fencing and cycling. Caffeine

was taken off the banned list soon after, although it is monitored as

you say. Here is the WADA policy.

" The following substances included in the 2007 Monitoring Program

(bupropion, caffeine, phenylephrine, phenylpropanolamine, pipradol,

pseudoephedrine, synephrine) are not considered as Prohibited

Substances. "

Here is the WADA 2007 banned list:

http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/document/2007_List_En.pdf

Gympie, Australia

[Guest guest]

Regarding training (duration & work capacity ):

The adaptive processes to training is mainly mediated through

adaptive protein synthesis. Yes, probably even neural effects which

contributes to expression of strength are mediated through protein

synthesis in neural tissue. There is a incontestable link between

adaptive processes and the genetic machinery.

Its very wrong to think that only hypertrophy means synthesis of new

proteins, and unfortunately, this is what most ppl think.

There are different signaling factors which can enhance protein

synthesis, but a determinant one is the presence of metabolites

resulting from the training process. They signal the enhanced protein

synthesis, and the effect is amplified by hormones.

In the light of this theory, during training, it is not advisable to

use chemicals which remove metabolites from the site. Without the

presence of elevated metabolite concentrations, some adaptations may

not occur, or occur at much lower rates.

So I would not remove H+ forced during training. I would let the body

gain a significant buffering capacity by its own, as a result to

presence of H+, and resort to this kind of tricks only in

competition, should I consider it gives any edge, regardless how

statistically improbable it seems.

So, IMO, do not remove metabolites forcefully during training.

As a side note, taking steroids is not removing the metabolites. Due

to their nature, they can act as amplifiers of adaptation rates, much

like endogenous hormones do.

Dan Partelly

Oradea, Romania

> >

> > Ok at this point I'd like to hear from Krieger - wasn't

> bicarbonate loading specifically busted with regard to powerlifting

> in " Pure Power " magazine some time ago?

> >

> > The only thing I've recently heard in the gyms is some thinking

> that taking a " TUMS " will help on recovery....but that has made a few

> people extremely SICK trying it too....which is worse, sore muscles

> or hurling violently lol. I'll take DOMS for 200, ....

> >

> > I don't know anybody who uses the bicarbonate nor have I heard

> anybody competing at meets I've been at proclaim the usefulness of

> worrying their pH. The only worry I have is staying sufficiently

> hydrated and energized, and yeah, that's a POWERADE TM thing with me,

> nothing more.

> >

> > (side note: even effervescent creatine with its fizzy component

> has been a problem for a few people I've trained with in the past,

> causing severe nausea/gas and a feeling like lifting after intake a

> very bad idea? one guy drank some on the way to a workout and felt

> SO bad he bought water and drank it on the way in...trying

> desperately to settle his stomach. regular creatine didn't induce

> this so perhaps the bicarbonate isn't going to work for some people

> at all?).

> >

>

> =========================

> Some users can't tolerate it well and suffer from gastrointestinal

> problems - hence you may be busting for something:) Recommended

> usage (there is a high degree of individuality and athletes

> should " experiment " ) is 0.3 g per kg body mass. I'm not entirely

sure why any powerlifter would use sodium bicarbonate (weight loss?).

>

> =====================

>

[Guest guest]

In the light of this theory, during training, it is not

advisable to use chemicals which remove metabolites from the site.

Without the

> presence of elevated metabolite concentrations, some adaptations may

> not occur, or occur at much lower rates.

>

> So I would not remove H+ forced during training. I would let the

body

> gain a significant buffering capacity by its own, as a result to

> presence of H+, and resort to this kind of tricks only in

> competition, should I consider it gives any edge, regardless how

> statistically improbable it seems. So, IMO, do not remove

>metabolites forcefully during training. ****

****

I would not advocate using bicarbonate in training but there is at

least one study that suggests you are wrong.

Edge J, Bishop D, Goodman C. Effects of chronic NaHCO3 ingestion

during interval training on changes to muscle buffer capacity,

metabolism, and short-term endurance performance. J Appl Physiol.

2006 Sep;101(3):918-25.

" The group ingesting NaHCO3 before each training session had larger

improvements in the LT and endurance performance, possibly because of

a reduced metabolic acidosis during training and a greater

improvement in muscle oxidative capacity. "

mac (brianmac.co.uk) summarises it like this:

" 16 recreationally active women underwent an 8-week program of 3-

times per week training of six to 12 two-minute cycle intervals at

140-170% of their lactate threshold. Half of the group consumed

bicarbonate before each session and half a placebo. Both groups

showed improvements in buffer capacity (19 vs. 9%) and VO2 peak (22

vs. 17%) after the training period, with no differences between

groups. Pre-training buffer capacity and percent change in buffer

capacity correlated well. There were greater improvements in both the

lactate threshold (26 vs. 15%) and time to fatigue (164 vs. 123%)

after taking bicarbonate, compared with the placebo. "

Read the full paper here:

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/101/3/918

Gympie, Australia

[Guest guest]

Hi

I am fascinated by this conversation and once again want to bring this back

to a team sport with which I am familiar, rugby. It seems that there would

be an application in rugby players who are interval sprint and power and

strength athletes that have a high requirement for strength and speed

endurance. You made the statement that you would not suggest the use of

NaHCO3 in practice, however is there not an argument that players would be

able to offer improved quality of practice by delaying onset of muscular

fatigue in practice sessions.

Game day situations could also bennefit from carbonate consumption, but to

avoid the problems of gastointestinal problems loading on Thursday (normally

in season low intensity practice day) and Friday may benefit the player come

Saturday games.

The study on the improvements in Judo performance as well as the srpint

cycling studies and this latest study you present show that perhaps one

could consider continuous loading of NaHCO3. Any thoughts?

Best Regards

Nick Tatalias

Johannesburg

South Africa

>

>

>

> In the light of this theory, during training, it is not

> advisable to use chemicals which remove metabolites from the site.

> Without the

> > presence of elevated metabolite concentrations, some adaptations may

> > not occur, or occur at much lower rates.

> >

> > So I would not remove H+ forced during training. I would let the

> body

> > gain a significant buffering capacity by its own, as a result to

> > presence of H+, and resort to this kind of tricks only in

> > competition, should I consider it gives any edge, regardless how

> > statistically improbable it seems. So, IMO, do not remove

> >metabolites forcefully during training. ****

>

> ****

> I would not advocate using bicarbonate in training but there is at

> least one study that suggests you are wrong.

>

> Edge J, Bishop D, Goodman C. Effects of chronic NaHCO3 ingestion

> during interval training on changes to muscle buffer capacity,

> metabolism, and short-term endurance performance. J Appl Physiol.

> 2006 Sep;101(3):918-25.

>

> " The group ingesting NaHCO3 before each training session had larger

> improvements in the LT and endurance performance, possibly because of

> a reduced metabolic acidosis during training and a greater

> improvement in muscle oxidative capacity. "

>

> mac (brianmac.co.uk) summarises it like this:

>

> " 16 recreationally active women underwent an 8-week program of 3-

> times per week training of six to 12 two-minute cycle intervals at

> 140-170% of their lactate threshold. Half of the group consumed

> bicarbonate before each session and half a placebo. Both groups

> showed improvements in buffer capacity (19 vs. 9%) and VO2 peak (22

> vs. 17%) after the training period, with no differences between

> groups. Pre-training buffer capacity and percent change in buffer

> capacity correlated well. There were greater improvements in both the

> lactate threshold (26 vs. 15%) and time to fatigue (164 vs. 123%)

> after taking bicarbonate, compared with the placebo. "

>

> Read the full paper here:

>

> http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/101/3/918

>

>

> Gympie, Australia

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

I don't disagree with you " per-se " . If I were to start to gather research

I will most likely find at least one research paper making a

counterpoint to almost any affirmation in this field, which is not an

exact science. This is very good and interesting. This is one of the

way science evolves, contradiction.

But when you get your hands dirty, and apply things practically, then

you have to choose sides. You will position yourself on one side or

another of the barricade. Its inevitable.

Dan Partelly

Oradea, Romania

[Guest guest]

Nick (and Dan),

I am not too keen on the idea of loading in training for team sports

because: 1) the gastro problem and 2) getting them to actually bother

to do it. But you may have a much more committed and experimental

team than in my experience :-). And 3) . . .

Even in the face of that study I quoted, Dan's logic is quite sound.

When you supply exogenous (external) substances to the body the

tendency is for it to back off with endogenous (internal) production.

This is the basis of homeostasis, which is how the body keeps things

in the narrow range of normal -- glucose, hormones, pH etc. People on

prednisone (a synthetic cortisone) for certain illnesses are warned

not to suddenly cease their dose because the body virtually stops

making its own cortisol. It's also one of the reasons people get into

trouble taking anabolic steroids -- testosterone production gets

lazy, estrogen overload etc.

In this case, it may seem logical that if you were to offer the body

a constant supply of a very high alkaline supplement for buffering

H+, it may, over time, just decide that it does not need to do the

work internally and that this may eventually negatively affect buffer

capacity and anaerobic performance. In the study I quoted, this did

not happen -- to the surprise of the study team. Buffer capacity

improved and, it seems, physiological performance criteria as well.

Even so, this is not a large study even though it seems well thought

through and carefully produced. In any case it was only three

times/week, which may not be enough to disrupt homeostatic mechanisms.

Your idea of doing a Thursday and Friday loading for a Saturday game

could work out well, preventing game day upsets. Some will tolerate

it, others won't. I have tried it and for me the slight nausea seemed

more related to the unpalatable taste. A bit of fruit juice seems to

help. I regularly drink potassium bicarb soda water as a rehydration

drink with a bit of juice. That's quite palatable but it does not

have the concentration of the dosing protocols required. All that

sodium in NaHCO3 may not be good for hypertensives either.

Below is further discussion from AIS re bicarb loading. You may get

more ideas re dosing protocols.

http://www.ais.org.au/nutrition/documents/16.5.1.4Bicarbonate.pdf

Regards,

Gympie, Australia

> >

> > In the light of this theory, during training, it is not

> > advisable to use chemicals which remove metabolites from the site.

> > Without the

> > > presence of elevated metabolite concentrations, some

adaptations may

> > > not occur, or occur at much lower rates.

> > >

> > > So I would not remove H+ forced during training. I would let the

> > body

> > > gain a significant buffering capacity by its own, as a result to

> > > presence of H+, and resort to this kind of tricks only in

> > > competition, should I consider it gives any edge, regardless how

> > > statistically improbable it seems. So, IMO, do not remove

> > >metabolites forcefully during training. ****

> >

> > ****

> > I would not advocate using bicarbonate in training but there is at

> > least one study that suggests you are wrong.

> >

> > Edge J, Bishop D, Goodman C. Effects of chronic NaHCO3 ingestion

> > during interval training on changes to muscle buffer capacity,

> > metabolism, and short-term endurance performance. J Appl Physiol.

> > 2006 Sep;101(3):918-25.

> >

> > " The group ingesting NaHCO3 before each training session had

larger

> > improvements in the LT and endurance performance, possibly

because of

> > a reduced metabolic acidosis during training and a greater

> > improvement in muscle oxidative capacity. "

> >

> > mac (brianmac.co.uk) summarises it like this:

> >

> > " 16 recreationally active women underwent an 8-week program of 3-

> > times per week training of six to 12 two-minute cycle intervals at

> > 140-170% of their lactate threshold. Half of the group consumed

> > bicarbonate before each session and half a placebo. Both groups

> > showed improvements in buffer capacity (19 vs. 9%) and VO2 peak

(22

> > vs. 17%) after the training period, with no differences between

> > groups. Pre-training buffer capacity and percent change in buffer

> > capacity correlated well. There were greater improvements in both

the

> > lactate threshold (26 vs. 15%) and time to fatigue (164 vs. 123%)

> > after taking bicarbonate, compared with the placebo. "

> >

> > Read the full paper here:

> >

> > http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/101/3/918

> >

> >

> > Gympie, Australia

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Maybe, bicarbonate has a place in power sports. It can be renal

protective from rhabdomyolysis, especially in beginners who overdo it

or to those with elevated CK. But I'm not sure about that.

Chrysostomos Georiou

Ioannina, Greece

>

> ,

>

> buffer capacity has 0 influence in sports like yours. Powerlifters

> don't need any kind of increased buffer capacity at meets.

>

> It true that bicarbonate can have adverse reactions, but not

everybody

> has them. Some can ingest a lot without any ill effects.

>

> Dan Partelly

> Oradea, Romania

>