Guest guest Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Glen, Would you please expand on the following? It makes sense, but it is so far removed from currently accepted practices that it piqued my curiosity. " Nutrition strategies of being in a fasted state prior to training (4-12hrs). Do NOT eat at least 60-90 minutes after training. Predominantly eat high energy turnover foods, NOT high energy foods! " Thanks! Pérez Reynosa, Mexico ________________________________ From: Supertraining [mailto:Supertraining ] On Behalf Of glen stewart Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 9:42 PM To: Supertraining Subject: Counterintuitive Fatloss Hi Mark, Your right regarding regular short work periods throughout the day, kicking metabolism along. Consideration might be given to the fact that the biggest impact on metabolism is muscle, or more to the point muscle relative to fat. Obviously a high muscle to fat ratio is ideal. Also never being hungry is not necessarily a good thing. Being hungry then achieving compensation through eating is our biological cycle. Never being hungry means you will more than likely always be in an anabolic state. Your body needs to cycle through anabolic and catabolic states in order to adapt. A case of two steps forward, one step back. For example training is catabolic...rest is anabolic! Being hungry for periods also provides digestive system relief (liver & pancreas) & allows unimpeded build up of digestive enzymes. Removing fat from your nutrition will impact negatively on your fat loss rate. FFA's stimulate higher levels of fat burning enzymes. Adding fibre will compromise the body's natural elimination process. Replace the fibre with fats such as olives, olive oil, flaxseed oil, fatty fish (salmon, mackerel), whole eggs, nuts, avocados, fatty meats (scotch fillet, eye fillet, etc). Nutrition strategies of being in a fasted state prior to training (4-12hrs). Do NOT eat at least 60-90 minutes after training. Predominantly eat high energy turnover foods, NOT high energy foods!. These strategies together with an emphasis on anaerobic training will create an ideal hormonal environment whereby you will hold on to hard earned muscle, becoming a fat burner and NOT a sugar burner. Regards, Glen Canberra, Australia ============================= Mark Helme <mark-helme@... <mailto:mark-helme%40sky.com> > wrote: This fits in well with a discussion I have had with a colleague. Currently I am trying to lose body fat, to do so I have modified my diet to reduce fat/carb intake and increase protein and fibre intake. I have also managed to adapt my eating habits to avoid periods of hunger. I have definitely felt better since doing this, regarding fat loss I am only a few weeks in so haven't big changes yet, but I am positive. The question we have been pondering is that of metabolism. My main idea is to maintain a higher metabolism throughout the day, thus aiding fat loss. I theorise that regular meals will do this in part. What I am most concerned with is whether short workouts of mod/high intensity spread throughout the day will increase metabolism more than a standard single workout of 45-60 min. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? =============================== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Hi Glen, Can you perhaps go into a bit more detail on the nutrition strategies portion of your post. Maybe I am misunderstanding it. What is meant by a fasted state? Does that mean no eating or very little for 4-12 hours prior to an 60-90 minutes after training? If so that seems like a long time to be without any kind of nutritional intake. Also are you suggesting to elliminate fibre? I was led to believe that fibre is both healthy and if fact can assist in weight loss. I'm not attempting argue your information just have it clarified so ensure I understand it. Thanks for your help, Lee Robillard Mississauga, Ontario Canada. ====================================== glen stewart wrote: Hi Mark, Your right regarding regular short work periods throughout the day, kicking metabolism along. Consideration might be given to the fact that the biggest impact on metabolism is muscle, or more to the point muscle relative to fat. Obviously a high muscle to fat ratio is ideal. Also never being hungry is not necessarily a good thing. Being hungry then achieving compensation through eating is our biological cycle. Never being hungry means you will more than likely always be in an anabolic state. Your body needs to cycle through anabolic and catabolic states in order to adapt. A case of two steps forward, one step back. For example training is catabolic...rest is anabolic! Being hungry for periods also provides digestive system relief (liver & pancreas) & allows unimpeded build up of digestive enzymes. Removing fat from your nutrition will impact negatively on your fat loss rate. FFA's stimulate higher levels of fat burning enzymes. Adding fibre will compromise the body's natural elimination process. Replace the fibre with fats such as olives, olive oil, flaxseed oil, fatty fish (salmon, mackerel), whole eggs, nuts, avocados, fatty meats (scotch fillet, eye fillet, etc). Nutrition strategies of being in a fasted state prior to training (4-12hrs). Do NOT eat at least 60-90 minutes after training. Predominantly eat high energy turnover foods, NOT high energy foods!. These strategies together with an emphasis on anaerobic training will create an ideal hormonal environment whereby you will hold on to hard earned muscle, becoming a fat burner and NOT a sugar burner. Regards, Glen Canberra, Australia ============================= Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Glen hi This seems strange to me as well. Part of the reason for eating after training is to get necessary nutrients back into the muscle and end the catabolic state caused by training and kick off the path to recovery. Please elaborate Thanks Lawrence Fisher Raanana, Israel > > > > glen stewart <ironjungle4040@... <ironjungle4040%40yahoo.com.au>> > wrote: > Hi Mark, > > Your right regarding regular short work periods throughout the day, > kicking metabolism along. > > Consideration might be given to the fact that the biggest impact on > metabolism is muscle, or more to the point muscle relative to fat. Obviously > a high muscle to fat ratio is ideal. > > Also never being hungry is not necessarily a good thing. > > Being hungry then achieving compensation through eating is our biological > cycle. > > Never being hungry means you will more than likely always be in an > anabolic state. Your body needs to cycle through anabolic and catabolic > states in order to adapt. A case of two steps forward, one step back. > > For example training is catabolic...rest is anabolic! > > Being hungry for periods also provides digestive system relief (liver & > pancreas) & allows unimpeded build up of digestive enzymes. > > Removing fat from your nutrition will impact negatively on your fat loss > rate. FFA's stimulate higher levels of fat burning enzymes. Adding fibre > will compromise the body's natural elimination process. > > Replace the fibre with fats such as olives, olive oil, flaxseed oil, fatty > fish (salmon, mackerel), whole eggs, nuts, avocados, fatty meats (scotch > fillet, eye fillet, etc). > > Nutrition strategies of being in a fasted state prior to training > (4-12hrs). Do NOT eat at least 60-90 minutes after training. Predominantly > eat high energy turnover foods, NOT high energy foods!. > > These strategies together with an emphasis on anaerobic training will > create an ideal hormonal environment whereby you will hold on to hard earned > muscle, becoming a fat burner and NOT a sugar burner. > > Regards, > > Glen > Canberra, Australia > > ============================= > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 , Digestive stress and fatloss are two of the main conditions for which fibre, bran in particular, is recommended. In my experience, although it can be helpful for some, there are in fact other alternatives. I have found that fibre, particularly cereal fibre, may actually increase the risk of digestive stress. Although it is supposed to travel through the gut at a faster rate, it does not always do so and using it as a “stomach filler” when dieting is not always good either. Constipation is a frequent complaint when people who have eaten a high-fibre diet adopt a different macro percentage nutrition template. However, that does not mean that the new diet is at fault. Constipation is really caused by their previous diet. What happens is this: You eat food and the waste is moved along the bowel by circular muscles, in the same way as a worm moves. If you eat a high-fibre diet, the fibre itself forces waste through and the circular bowel action is made redundant. After a while it stops working. Now you change to a more natural diet with a lower & shy;fibre intake and your bowel muscles don't work as they should, so you get constipated. The muscles will recover if you keep eating appropriately, (lower-carb, higher-fat) and drinking more water. What you should not do is go back to the high-fibre regime that caused the problem in the first place. Obviously seasonal vegetables (raw & warmed) and fruits (raw, preferably with skin) are good, but not in the vast quantities some people suggest. One of the current and widely accepted nutritional strategies is to eat 5-6 small meals a day. In theory, this will minimize hunger, limit insulin spikes and raise metabolism. This strategy was born out of the body building culture where the requirement to maintain 250 plus pounds of body weight is only achieved through a huge food intake. Great if you’re a lineman, shot putter or heavy weight category athlete. Frequent feeding is not necessary if fat loss is the goal and you have no desire to be heavy! Pre and post workout meals in theory are designed to offset training stress. Don’t train on the nerve and you minimize one of the biggest muscle growth inhibitors…cortisol! Food ingestion produces insulin (a fat utilization inhibitor). In a fasted state and a brief time after exercise, why not take advantage of elevated growth hormone and high enzyme activity (especially lipase), which mobilize FFA’s. Obviously, food consumption is necessary, but more importantly eating after physical stress (exercise) & macronutrient depletion (fasting) will create a more efficient fat usage environment. Then when you do eat, consume high energy turnover foods. For example a standard chicken egg contains about 90 calories. To digest that egg requires about 100 calories! So if you consume foods that have high energy digestive requirements, you create an enhanced thermic effect (higher metabolism) through nutrition. What are high energy turnover foods? Natural foods such as animal proteins and fats. One cyclic macronutrient breakdown will be approx 40% fat, 30% protein & 30% carbohydrates. If you consume fatty fish and fatty grains, along with good oils, nuts, avocados and full cream dairy your fat intake will become dominant. With this in mind however, just as feed forward tension re lifting is not well known or understood, so to the importance of fat in our nutrition is misunderstood. As cyclic training in sport is necessary, so to is nutritional cycling, macronutrient cycling, and phases of depletion and compensation important. Note a 12 hour plus fast might include night time sleep and 4 plus hours might be between meals. Regards, Glen Canberra, Australia " , " wrote: Glen, Would you please expand on the following? It makes sense, but it is so far removed from currently accepted practices that it piqued my curiosity. " Nutrition strategies of being in a fasted state prior to training (4-12hrs). Do NOT eat at least 60-90 minutes after training. Predominantly eat high energy turnover foods, NOT high energy foods! " Thanks! Pérez Reynosa, Mexico ________________________________ From: Supertraining [mailto:Supertraining ] On Behalf Of glen stewart Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 9:42 PM To: Supertraining Subject: Counterintuitive Fatloss Hi Mark, Your right regarding regular short work periods throughout the day, kicking metabolism along. Consideration might be given to the fact that the biggest impact on metabolism is muscle, or more to the point muscle relative to fat. Obviously a high muscle to fat ratio is ideal. Also never being hungry is not necessarily a good thing. Being hungry then achieving compensation through eating is our biological cycle. Never being hungry means you will more than likely always be in an anabolic state. Your body needs to cycle through anabolic and catabolic states in order to adapt. A case of two steps forward, one step back. For example training is catabolic...rest is anabolic! Being hungry for periods also provides digestive system relief (liver & pancreas) & allows unimpeded build up of digestive enzymes. Removing fat from your nutrition will impact negatively on your fat loss rate. FFA's stimulate higher levels of fat burning enzymes. Adding fibre will compromise the body's natural elimination process. Replace the fibre with fats such as olives, olive oil, flaxseed oil, fatty fish (salmon, mackerel), whole eggs, nuts, avocados, fatty meats (scotch fillet, eye fillet, etc). Nutrition strategies of being in a fasted state prior to training (4-12hrs). Do NOT eat at least 60-90 minutes after training. Predominantly eat high energy turnover foods, NOT high energy foods!. These strategies together with an emphasis on anaerobic training will create an ideal hormonal environment whereby you will hold on to hard earned muscle, becoming a fat burner and NOT a sugar burner. Regards, Glen Canberra, Australia ============================= Mark Helme <mark-helme@... <mailto:mark-helme%40sky.com> > wrote: This fits in well with a discussion I have had with a colleague. Currently I am trying to lose body fat, to do so I have modified my diet to reduce fat/carb intake and increase protein and fibre intake. I have also managed to adapt my eating habits to avoid periods of hunger. I have definitely felt better since doing this, regarding fat loss I am only a few weeks in so haven't big changes yet, but I am positive. The question we have been pondering is that of metabolism. My main idea is to maintain a higher metabolism throughout the day, thus aiding fat loss. I theorise that regular meals will do this in part. What I am most concerned with is whether short workouts of mod/high intensity spread throughout the day will increase metabolism more than a standard single workout of 45-60 min. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? =============================== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2008 Report Share Posted February 2, 2008 **** . . . so to the importance of fat in our nutrition is misunderstood. As cyclic training in sport is necessary, so to is nutritional cycling, macronutrient cycling, and phases of depletion and compensation important.**** I write: No, the importance of fat in nutrition is not misunderstood -- well not be me anyway, nor by most sports and weight loss nutritionists. Macronutrient cycling is supposed to be some advanced form of nutrition for athletes? You will need to convince me with appropriate references. Even endurance athletes have abandoned the depletion part of carbohydrate loading. But I will say this re high-protein, high-fat diets: they may be somewhat useful for weight loss in the short term, with not much difference in the longer term, but if, as a trainer, you fool around with such diets in athletes who need to train and compete long and hard and at variable high intensities, you will fail them. I reckon that if you're managing to train and compete on that sort of diet, then you're not goin' hard enough - and probably not winning either. I'll post some scientific data on fat-loading protocols in another post. BTW, I don't necessarily agree with the 'many meals a day' thing that the weight training, bodybuilding community seem to think is best, either. I think this lacks validation. Gympie, Australia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 > Mark Helme wrote: > > The question we have been pondering is that of metabolism. My main idea is > to maintain a higher metabolism throughout the day, thus aiding fat loss. I > theorise that regular meals will do this in part. What I am most concerned > with > is whether short workouts of mod/high intensity spread throughout the day > will increase metabolism more than a standard single workout of 45-60 min. > > Does anyone have any thoughts on this? ******* Greetings Mark, I wrote the following article but never submitted it. So excuse some of the hyperbole. Jerry “XYZ†training In conjunction with naturally selecting the healthiest food -- is the “ Natural Selection†of exercises for your FITNESS STRATEGY. Whether you are an elite bodybuilder desiring the extremes of muscle size and leanness or an exerciser desiring the greatest health including; the greatest fat loss, incredible cardiovascular function improvements and the greatest natural stimulator of anabolic hormones, the following plan is for you. From time immemorial -- through the present -- and even ignorantly into the future, contemporary exercise for weight loss is, and will be, for the vast majority, a case against mans capacity to see reality and change. Today one still witnesses 1-2 hour aerobics classes -- attended 3-5 times a week by the star crossed generation of lean wannabes. Many of todays trainers advocate that as you loose weight you must aerobically train more to continue loosing. This is insanity. Recent research plus the wisdom of a few “out of the box†trainers have demonstrated the folly of this “more is better†approach. As it stands today there are two basic schools of fat loss exercise. The first is the continuous, low exercise intensity, long training times aerobic exercise style. And the second approach is the high exercise intensity, but short training phases, combined with low intensity (active rest) time periods/intervals, anaerobic style. It must be said that there are many variations to both styles of training -- with all(?) research pointing to the high intensity intervals – and much research left to be done. LOW INTENSITY AEROBIC VS THE MAX INTENSITY FAT BURNING PROTOCOL The low intensity, long training time periods, aerobic style practitioners believe exercising at the level that burns the greatest immediate (but low amounts) of fat is the most productive. It is a fact low intensity exercise does burn fat faster during exercise than high intensity exercise -- leading to the common recommendation that low intensity, long duration endurance exercise is the most beneficial for fat loss. But, as Krieger points out “As exercise intensity increases, the proportion of fat utilized as energy decreases, while the proportion of carbohydrates utilized increases.†This seems to further support the low intensity training as the best fat burner. “Howeverâ€, Krieger continues, “This belief does not take into consideration what happens after the high/max intensity exercise period.†The predominant post exercise fuel is again fat, but now due to the prior max training and resulting magnified metabolism, fat is utilized for energy at an accelerated rate. The more intense the exercise (to what point?) the greater the fat loss after exercise – sometimes lasting 12 hours or more.(Krieger paraphrased) Because the proportion of carbohydrates utilized increases as exercise increases in time orintensity an extended aerobic protocol often depletes the exerciser of glycogen (blood sugar) which is both an integral element in muscle exercise and more importantly brain energy production. The short and sweet of the whole deranged ppicture is this -- muscle will be converted to glycogen (blood sugar) to make up for the carbohydrate loss -- mainly because glycogen is the only fuel used by the brain. Without it the brain dries up like a raisin and you will act like a moron. Now that's a good one -- loose as much (or more) muscle as fat during extended low intensity exercise -- due to the brainless anchor of the ages -- mans unwillingness to change. Trainers on ultra low carb diets loose muscle even faster. (big discussion point here) HIGH/LOW INTENSITY CONTRAST INTERVAL TRAINING, ANAEROBIC FAT BURNING PROTOCOL The other fat loss method is high to super high training intensity combined with low intensity active recovery system intervals. The proven results of this type of training is an increased metabolic state elevating the hormones consistent with fat utilization (burning) for an extended period of time after exercise is terminated. This max intensity exercise alternated with contrasting low intensity recovery periods increases fat loss after exercise -- up to 12-24 or more hours in some cases. Bahr and Sejersted observed the higher the exercise intensity, the greater fat utilization -- up to 14 hours longer in their experimental design. Angelo Tremblay, Ph.D., and his colleagues challenged the common belief among health professionals that low-to moderate intensity, long-duration exercise is the best program for fat loss. They found shorter and more intense exercise bouts separated by recovery periods allowing heart rate to return to 120-130 beats per minute to be the most effective. The high Intensity protocol group lost 9 times more fat for every calorie burned exercising. In other words, compared to moderate-intensity endurance exercise, high-intensity intermittent exercise causes drastically more fat calories to be burned following the workout. Izumi Tabata and his colleagues compared the effects of a high intensity 4 minute training program of very-hard 20 second repeats with 10 seconds rest, vs one hour of moderate-intensity -- " may be optimal with respect to improving * both* the aerobic and the anaerobic energy release systems. " That's something to write home about!†Bryner et al found a significant loss in body fat in a group that exercised at an intensity of 80-90% of maximum heart rate, while no significant change in body fat was found in the lower intensity group which exercised at 60-70% of maximum heart rate. Warburton found that high-intensity interval training provides an effective means to improve anaerobic tolerance and the cardiovascular fitness and health status of highly functional patients with coronary artery disease. Krieger J Appl Physiol. 1998 Jun;84(6):2138-42. in an exercise review by many researchers found that high-intensity exercise, notably intermittent protocols, is more beneficial for fat loss than low- and moderate-intensity exercise. Finally, a number of studies have found high-intensity exercise to suppress appetite and reduce saturated fat intake more than lower intensities. Overall, the evidence strongly suggests that high intensity training is the most efficient method for achieving fat loss. However the researchers acknowledge a warning and down side to high intensity interval training. This training might be to physical and/or psychologically demanding for various individuals. In short high intensity intervals is not for individuals at risk for health problems at any age, for obese people who are not used to exercise or for weenies. Obviously I'm an adherent of the short training time high intensity contrast intervals method, as are intelligent others including ground breaking researchers. Various types of Interval training and other similar strategies have been in use for at least 40 years to train for various events. Only recently have short term high -- to super max intensity exercise periods combined with low intensity recovery periods -- proved immensely useful in fat loss, athletic training and cardiovascular training. CONTRAST INTERVAL-METABOLIC MOMENTUM “XYZâ€TKâ„¢ TRAINING This concept is based on the above beliefs that extreme contrasts in training intensity are the most productive means to acquiring various states of conditioning. Over the years I developed this system based on research of the day and my own experimentations and observations. I have used this method for over 20 years with self and others I have trained and advised -- it works for every one. Especially intrigued are the Drs who are amazed by the functional changes in blood profiles and heart rates in short periods of time -- particularly in contrast with previous high volume aerobic protocols. “XYZ†HIGH CONTRAST TRAINING INTERVALS -- TKâ„¢ OUTLINE “XYZ†training incorporates 3 basic phases; “Xâ€, “Y†and “Zâ€. “Xâ€. The “X†phase incorporates brief super intense, max effort exercise bouts usually of about 10-30 secs. “Y†After each “X†super intensity phase a “Yâ€, a low intensity active rest (walking) interval period is utilized. The length of the “Y†active rest cycle depends on the athlete -- that is how long it takes for the athletes heart rate to drop to a target BPM (beats per minute) which is typically 65% of the athletes max heart rate. “X-Y†CYCLES After the exerciser reaches 65% max heart rate the next â€X†super intense, max effort phase is initiated and then the next “Y†cycle and etc. These “X-Y†cycles are repeated, typically 5-7 times until an enhanced metabolic rate is realized. If the “X†is strenuous enough the exerciser will reach their max heart rate during the 3rd “X-Y†cycle. Max heart rate is 220 minus your age. If you are 25 years old-- then 220 minus 25 equals195 for your max heart rate. If max rate is not reached by the 3rd “ XYâ€cycle the “X†intensity must be increased -- either by lengthening exercise time, exerting more effort or switching to another mode of exercise. “Z†cycleAt this point 10-12 minutes of “Z†low intensity exercise, is performed.“Z†exercise effort level is about 75-80% of max heart rate. Seventy five to eighty percent of max heart rate is typically an aerobic heart rate training zone but when combined with an enhanced metabolic state greatly enhances the effect. ENHANCED METABOLIC RATE An enhanced metabolic rate(as defined by me for this program) is an energy state where lessexercise effort is needed to maintain a given heart rate. This little known fact seems to be one of the keys to this training paradigm. The other keys seem to be the extreme contrasts in exercise effort from an all out short but extreme efforts interspersed with very low level recovery activities to reach the enhanced metabolic state and finally the 10-12 minutes of aerobic zone effort performed while in the enhanced metabolic state- I've never run accross another reference to this but its a fact. WHICH HIGH/LOW INTENSITY PROTOCOL IS BEST The answer of course is there probably is no single best system. Obviously there are a myriad of good protocols many of which need to be utilized and or varied to provide variety to avoid physical and/or psychological over adaptation. As you now know effort and active rest periods are defined by length/time, intensity and mode of exercise. DETERMINING EFFECTIVENESS With all of the different variations one needs a way to monitor effectiveness. Obviously the athlete doesn't want to wait a month to measure gains. Though there are in the momentindicators aside from weight loss that indicate progress. As you will see the daily indicators are easy to recognize -- while the longer range variables not so easy. Unfortunately weight loss is not a good indicator -- for one thing diet is at least as important as exercise leaving many exercisers believing they can eat more since they are now exercising and will still loose fat. Maybe so maybe not!! DAILY INDICATORS While it may be impossible to detect a days worth of fat loss you can be assured, if your exercise and food intake is inteligent, that you’re loosing fat. Regardless, what your effectiveness measure is an extended heart rate elevation after exercise. First you need to take your heart rate over the course of 3 days starting with your rising, when you get out of bed, and your normal activity heart rate. Then measure heart rate after exercise and every hour thereafter until sleep. Your heart rate should stay elevated for 6-8 hours.If you have trouble sleeping its a good sign and you will probably have to interval train no later then two in the afternoon. On the good side -- this type of training enhances the anabolic hormones, possibly increasing muscle mass more than if not on this program. Fat may be lost and replaced by muscle resulting in a stable weight or possible weight/muscle gain that might not other wise occur without the high intensity contrast intervals. Clothing fit, a tape measure or a good set of skin pinchers are much better ways to verify effectiveness -- so that no matter which routine or variation is used, the desired physical responses are monitored. Fortunately previous researchers suggested that monitoring metabolic rate, as a function of heart rate was the most practical measure of daily training. As above this is accomplished by measuring heart rate hourly over time after exercise. If you have exercised intensely enough using the following exercise protocols your heart rate will remain above normal for a given period of time. To a point, the harder you have exercised the longer the heart rate will stay elevated. HEART RATE AS SHORT AND LONG TERM INDICATORS Even though fat loss is a major concern, the cardiovascular benefits associated with lowering the resting heart rate is an even greater benefit for long term overall health. First resting heart must be measured over 3-4 days. This includes taking heart rate measures through the day; the first upon rising and at various times during the day. If your resting heart rate is above 80 a doctors visit may be in order. A max or limit heart rate for your age group is a must with this system. If poor health, including obesity or you are over age 35, an adjusted rate with a physicians guidance, determines the limit or temporary heart rate max to be used. Heart rate is easiest to measure with a scientific heart rate monitor. Without a heart rate monitor a light finger tip measure at the neck next to the apple or at the underside of the wrist works nearly as well. Your max heart rate is the number 220 minus your age. Thus if you are 30 1. your max heart rate is 220 - 30 =’s 190; 2. your 65% of heart rate is .65 X’s 190 =’s 123; and 3. your aerobic zone heart rate =’s .75 X’s 190 and .80 X’s 190 =’s about 145-150 BPM. SUMMARY “XYZ†TKâ„¢ HIGH CONTRAST INTERVAL TRAINING FOR THE YOUNG HEALTHY AND IMPATIENT Following is a sample “XYZ†program. A quick review of the format will greatly reduce future confusion. The routine can be used as is if your young and or healthy. In part 2 we will go into determining exact heart rates and times of exercises. Warm up. Warm up by gradually increasing running speed over 2-3 minutes until heart rate is 120, then your first max effort is initiated, “XY†Cycles Cycle 1, “X†-15 seconds of max intensity sprinting, “Yâ€- walking until heart rate returns to 130 BPM. (Beats Per Minute) Cycle 2 “Xâ€- 15 seconds of max intensity sprinting, “Yâ€-walking until heart rate returns to 130 BPM, Cycle 3 “X†-15 seconds of max intensity sprinting, . “Y†- walking until heart rate returns to 130 BPM, Cycle 4 “X†-15 seconds of max intensity sprinting, “Y†- walking until heart rate returns to 130 BPM, Cycle 5, “X†-15 seconds of max intensity sprinting, “Z†Phase - Reduce running speed until heart rate is about 145-150 BPM and continue jog/walking at a speed that keeps your heart rate no higher then 145-150 BPM for 10-12 minutes Cool down by gradually reducing speed to a walk over the course of 2-3 minutes. HIGH INTENSITY SUPRA MAXIMAL EXERCISES Finding exercises that are strenuous enough to meet “X†requirements is not as easy as one would believe for the well trained exerciser -- especially indoors. The exercise must provide resistance which allows the athlete to train at an all out effort that fatigues the athlete substabtiually in as short a time as possible -- less than 10-30 secs. X’s 5-7 intervals. Following is a list; 1. Sprinting on a treadmill. Max effort/speed is a must. One variable that helps is elevating the tread to its highest angle . Remember the exerciser should reach max heart rate during the third “X-Y†cycle. If this happens during the fourth or fifth cycle, or not at all, the time of max effort must be increased(gradually). Be careful and increase speed slowly -- the possibility of being launched off the treadmill, due to stumbling or accidentally stepping of the tread is a skin loosing, embarrassing, potentially dangerous possibility. After the predetermined max effort time is reached the exerciser resumes walking (the active rest phase) until their heart rate drops to the predetermined “ transitional†rate. The exerciser then repeats the “X-Y†max intensity/active rest contrast intervals for the predetermined number of cycles. After the last “X†cycle is completed the exerciser walks until his/her heart rate reaches the predetermined “Zâ€(80-85%) aerobic level. The athlete then exercises hard enough to keep within the predetermined heart rate limits for 10-12 minutes. Then the 2-5 minute cool down is initiated and the exerciser is done. 2. Pushing against a treadmill. With this mode the exerciser sets the treadmill to walk speed and initially does just that. After familiarization with the apparatus the exerciser places his/her hands on the bar that runs accross the front of the machine and pushes against the bar as if pushing a car down the street -- pushing harder and harder until s/he is pushing as hard as possible. This continues for the predetermined time. [[Authors notes. There are very few treadmills that allow this type of extreme exercise. Most will just shut down]] 3. Sprint/pushing against a treadmill. With this mode the exerciser sets the treadmill to walk speed and initially does just that. After familiarization with the apparatus the exerciser places his/her hands on the bar that runs across the front of the machine and pushes against the bar as if pushing a car down the street as in number 2 above-- *except* that tread speed is increased to the point where pushing is no longer possible *then* backing speed down about 20-30% and pushing as hard as possible. This continues for the predetermine d time. The faster rate of limb speed reduces expressed drive force to the point that max “push†effort does not shut the machine down. 4. Sprinting. This can include outdoor and indoor tracks, hills, stairs and “back and forths†in the gym. “Back and forths†include running a certain distance (usually over 5 yards -- stopping as fast as possible--without using the walls -- and running back a certain distance -- stopping and etc. for the time limit. Max effort is a must. If you are on an indoor track and must slow down for the curves -- additional time is required so that max heart rate happens during the third “XY†cycle. If outdoors and in good shape sprinting the straights and walking the curves -- as done from eons past – works great. Don't walk fast -- bringing your heart rate down to 65% max. is important for this particular protocol. 4. Running stairs. Almost every gym has a set of stairs somewhere. Obviously one needs to consider other members. Whether or not the exercise is hard enough will be determined by exercise time and time to max heart rate. Carrying a dumbbell in one hand will increase resistance. Falling down a set of stairs with a dumbbell in pursuit will end your training for some period of time. 5. Bicycling. If biking is to be used a hilly terrain is recommended to increase the resistance. Trial and error will determine what exercise and rate of limb movement is required. The bike can then be pedaled slowly during the “Y†phase until the heart rate drops to 65% for the next “X†max effort. Indoor bikes can be used if exercise criteria is met -- that is max heart rate is reached during the third ‘XY†cycle. 6. Gym equipment that provides resistance to both the legs and arms. Make a conscious effort to use the arms as much as possible. This type of equipment encourages an unconscious disproportionate use of the legs greater strength and power. The Schwinn Airdyne is an excellent piece of equipment and can be purchased at a reasonable price for home use -- obviously a convenient situation. BIBLIOGRAPHY Bahr, R., and O.M. Sejersted. Effect of intensity of exercise on excess postexercise O2 consumption. Metabolism. 40:836-841, 1991. Bryner, R.W., R.C. Toffle, I.H. Ullrish, and R.A. Yeater. The effects of exercise intensity on body composition, weight loss, and dietary composition in women. J. Am. Col. Nutr. 16:68-73, 1997. Krieger J Appl Physiol. 1998 Jun;84(6):2138-42. Izumi Tabata and his colleagues compared the effects of moderate-intensity endurance and high-intensity intermittent training on V02 max and anaerobic capacity. (Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise (1996) 28, 1327-1330). Tremblay, A., J. Simoneau, and C. Bouchard. Impact of exercise intensity on body fatness and skeletal muscle metabolism. Metabolism. 43:814-818, 1994. Tremblay, A., J. Després, C. Leblanc, C.L. Craig, B. Ferris, T. s, and C. Bouchard. Effect of intensity of physical activity on body fatness and fat distribution. Am J. Clin. Nutr. 51:153-157, 1990. Warburton DE, et.al. Effectiveness of high-intensity interval training for the rehabilitation of patients with coronary artery disease. Am J Cardiol. 2005 May 1;95(9):1080-4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Glen, Thanks. Not sure I agree on the egg-calorie thing but I do know that my gut doesn't like fiber so much, especially in large quantities. I do better by taking it easy on the oatmeal and whole-wheat bread. Thanks for the explanation as to what you meant by high energy turnover foods. Pérez Reynosa, Mexico ______________________________ From: Supertraining [mailto:Supertraining ] On Behalf Of glen stewart Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 7:07 PM To: Supertraining Subject: RE: Counterintuitive Fatloss , Digestive stress and fatloss are two of the main conditions for which fibre, bran in particular, is recommended. In my experience, although it can be helpful for some, there are in fact other alternatives. I have found that fibre, particularly cereal fibre, may actually increase the risk of digestive stress. Although it is supposed to travel through the gut at a faster rate, it does not always do so and using it as a " stomach filler " when dieting is not always good either. Constipation is a frequent complaint when people who have eaten a high-fibre diet adopt a different macro percentage nutrition template. However, that does not mean that the new diet is at fault. Constipation is really caused by their previous diet. What happens is this: You eat food and the waste is moved along the bowel by circular muscles, in the same way as a worm moves. If you eat a high-fibre diet, the fibre itself forces waste through and the circular bowel action is made redundant. After a while it stops working. Now you change to a more natural diet with a lower fibre intake and your bowel muscles don't work as they should, so you get constipated. The muscles will recover if you keep eating appropriately, (lower-carb, higher-fat) and drinking more water. What you should not do is go back to the high-fibre regime that caused the problem in the first place. Obviously seasonal vegetables (raw & warmed) and fruits (raw, preferably with skin) are good, but not in the vast quantities some people suggest. One of the current and widely accepted nutritional strategies is to eat 5-6 small meals a day. In theory, this will minimize hunger, limit insulin spikes and raise metabolism. This strategy was born out of the body building culture where the requirement to maintain 250 plus pounds of body weight is only achieved through a huge food intake. Great if you're a lineman, shot putter or heavy weight category athlete. Frequent feeding is not necessary if fat loss is the goal and you have no desire to be heavy! Pre and post workout meals in theory are designed to offset training stress. Don't train on the nerve and you minimize one of the biggest muscle growth inhibitors...cortisol! Food ingestion produces insulin (a fat utilization inhibitor). In a fasted state and a brief time after exercise, why not take advantage of elevated growth hormone and high enzyme activity (especially lipase), which mobilize FFA's. Obviously, food consumption is necessary, but more importantly eating after physical stress (exercise) & macronutrient depletion (fasting) will create a more efficient fat usage environment. Then when you do eat, consume high energy turnover foods. For example a standard chicken egg contains about 90 calories. To digest that egg requires about 100 calories! So if you consume foods that have high energy digestive requirements, you create an enhanced thermic effect (higher metabolism) through nutrition. What are high energy turnover foods? Natural foods such as animal proteins and fats. One cyclic macronutrient breakdown will be approx 40% fat, 30% protein & 30% carbohydrates. If you consume fatty fish and fatty grains, along with good oils, nuts, avocados and full cream dairy your fat intake will become dominant. With this in mind however, just as feed forward tension re lifting is not well known or understood, so to the importance of fat in our nutrition is misunderstood. As cyclic training in sport is necessary, so to is nutritional cycling, macronutrient cycling, and phases of depletion and compensation important. Note a 12 hour plus fast might include night time sleep and 4 plus hours might be between meals. ====================================== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Glen, Thanks. Not sure I agree on the egg-calorie thing but I do know that my gut doesn't like fiber so much, especially in large quantities. I do better by taking it easy on the oatmeal and whole-wheat bread. Thanks for the explanation as to what you meant by high energy turnover foods. Pérez Reynosa, Mexico ______________________________ From: Supertraining [mailto:Supertraining ] On Behalf Of glen stewart Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 7:07 PM To: Supertraining Subject: RE: Counterintuitive Fatloss , Digestive stress and fatloss are two of the main conditions for which fibre, bran in particular, is recommended. In my experience, although it can be helpful for some, there are in fact other alternatives. I have found that fibre, particularly cereal fibre, may actually increase the risk of digestive stress. Although it is supposed to travel through the gut at a faster rate, it does not always do so and using it as a " stomach filler " when dieting is not always good either. Constipation is a frequent complaint when people who have eaten a high-fibre diet adopt a different macro percentage nutrition template. However, that does not mean that the new diet is at fault. Constipation is really caused by their previous diet. What happens is this: You eat food and the waste is moved along the bowel by circular muscles, in the same way as a worm moves. If you eat a high-fibre diet, the fibre itself forces waste through and the circular bowel action is made redundant. After a while it stops working. Now you change to a more natural diet with a lower fibre intake and your bowel muscles don't work as they should, so you get constipated. The muscles will recover if you keep eating appropriately, (lower-carb, higher-fat) and drinking more water. What you should not do is go back to the high-fibre regime that caused the problem in the first place. Obviously seasonal vegetables (raw & warmed) and fruits (raw, preferably with skin) are good, but not in the vast quantities some people suggest. One of the current and widely accepted nutritional strategies is to eat 5-6 small meals a day. In theory, this will minimize hunger, limit insulin spikes and raise metabolism. This strategy was born out of the body building culture where the requirement to maintain 250 plus pounds of body weight is only achieved through a huge food intake. Great if you're a lineman, shot putter or heavy weight category athlete. Frequent feeding is not necessary if fat loss is the goal and you have no desire to be heavy! Pre and post workout meals in theory are designed to offset training stress. Don't train on the nerve and you minimize one of the biggest muscle growth inhibitors...cortisol! Food ingestion produces insulin (a fat utilization inhibitor). In a fasted state and a brief time after exercise, why not take advantage of elevated growth hormone and high enzyme activity (especially lipase), which mobilize FFA's. Obviously, food consumption is necessary, but more importantly eating after physical stress (exercise) & macronutrient depletion (fasting) will create a more efficient fat usage environment. Then when you do eat, consume high energy turnover foods. For example a standard chicken egg contains about 90 calories. To digest that egg requires about 100 calories! So if you consume foods that have high energy digestive requirements, you create an enhanced thermic effect (higher metabolism) through nutrition. What are high energy turnover foods? Natural foods such as animal proteins and fats. One cyclic macronutrient breakdown will be approx 40% fat, 30% protein & 30% carbohydrates. If you consume fatty fish and fatty grains, along with good oils, nuts, avocados and full cream dairy your fat intake will become dominant. With this in mind however, just as feed forward tension re lifting is not well known or understood, so to the importance of fat in our nutrition is misunderstood. As cyclic training in sport is necessary, so to is nutritional cycling, macronutrient cycling, and phases of depletion and compensation important. Note a 12 hour plus fast might include night time sleep and 4 plus hours might be between meals. ====================================== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 You can't disagree about the egg-calorie thing because you are demonstrably wrong. If you were right, an all-egg diet would have become the established champion weight loss diet decades ago, and it would be possible to starve to death in a day or two by gorging yourself on eggs. Second, what makes you think your problem with those foods is fiber? My first thought is that they are both grains. Grains are a very difficult to digest food for many people - especially when they are not soaked or fermented before eating, or if they are processed in any significant way. Grains contain an array of anti-nutrients that block vitamin and mineral absorption. Populations that eat diets composed of more than half whole grain end up with serious malnutrition problems. Food allegies to various substances in the grains is very common. Refined carbs from grains cause obesity and even diabetes in certain populations. The Navajo people used to be skinny and healthy until they started eating grains, now they have colossal rates of obesity and are a focal point for worldwide diabetes research. I don't think grains are an outright poison, but I think it is a mistake to make them a major component of your diet if you have a choice. Fiber, on the other hand, is essential. Try getting your fiber from fruits, nuts, and vegetables instead. Wilbanks Wisconsin, USA. > > Glen, > > Thanks. Not sure I agree on the egg-calorie thing but I do know that my gut doesn't like fiber so much, especially in large quantities. I do better by taking it easy on the oatmeal and whole-wheat bread. > > Thanks for the explanation as to what you meant by high energy turnover foods. > > Pérez > Reynosa, Mexico > > ______________________________ > > From: Supertraining [mailto:Supertraining ] On Behalf Of glen stewart > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 7:07 PM > To: Supertraining > Subject: RE: Counterintuitive Fatloss > > , > > Digestive stress and fatloss are two of the main conditions for which fibre, bran in particular, is recommended. In my experience, although it can be helpful for some, there are in fact other alternatives. I have found that fibre, particularly cereal fibre, may actually increase the risk of digestive stress. Although it is supposed to travel through the gut at a faster rate, it does not always do so and using it as a " stomach filler " when dieting is not always good either. > > Constipation is a frequent complaint when people who have eaten a high-fibre diet adopt a different macro percentage nutrition template. However, that does not mean that the new diet is at fault. Constipation is really caused by their previous diet. What happens is this: > > You eat food and the waste is moved along the bowel by circular muscles, in the same way as a worm moves. If you eat a high-fibre diet, the fibre itself forces waste through and the circular bowel action is made redundant. After a while it stops working. Now you change to a more natural diet with a lower fibre intake and your bowel muscles don't work as they should, so you get constipated. The muscles will recover if you keep eating appropriately, (lower-carb, higher-fat) and drinking more water. What you should not do is go back to the high-fibre regime that caused the problem in the first place. Obviously seasonal vegetables (raw & warmed) and fruits (raw, preferably with skin) are good, but not in the vast quantities some people suggest. > > One of the current and widely accepted nutritional strategies is to eat 5-6 small meals a day. In theory, this will minimize hunger, limit insulin spikes and raise metabolism. This strategy was born out of the body building culture where the requirement to maintain 250 plus pounds of body weight is only achieved through a huge food intake. Great if you're a lineman, shot putter or heavy weight category athlete. > > Frequent feeding is not necessary if fat loss is the goal and you have no desire to be heavy! Pre and post workout meals in theory are designed to offset training stress. Don't train on the nerve and you minimize one of the biggest muscle growth inhibitors...cortisol! Food ingestion produces insulin (a fat utilization inhibitor). In a fasted state and a brief time after exercise, why not take advantage of elevated growth hormone and high enzyme activity (especially lipase), which mobilize FFA's. Obviously, food consumption is necessary, but more importantly eating after physical stress (exercise) & macronutrient depletion (fasting) will create a more efficient fat usage environment. Then when you do eat, consume high energy turnover foods. For example a standard chicken egg contains about 90 calories. To digest that egg requires about 100 calories! So if you consume foods that have high energy digestive requirements, you create an enhanced thermic effect (higher > metabolism) through nutrition. What are high energy turnover foods? Natural foods such as animal proteins and fats. One cyclic macronutrient breakdown will be approx 40% fat, 30% protein & 30% carbohydrates. If you consume fatty fish and fatty grains, along with good oils, nuts, avocados and full cream dairy your fat intake will become dominant. > > With this in mind however, just as feed forward tension re lifting is not well known or understood, so to the importance of fat in our nutrition is misunderstood. As cyclic training in sport is necessary, so to is nutritional cycling, macronutrient cycling, and phases of depletion and compensation important. > > Note a 12 hour plus fast might include night time sleep and 4 plus hours might be between meals. > ====================================== > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Sorry, I got mixed up about who posted what about eggs. As far as fiber being necessary, I guess that depends on necessary for what. You could probably count on living long enough to breed with a no-fiber diet, so I guess it isn't evolutionarily necessary. In terms of my definition of basic health and quality of life, I consider it necessary. It has been shown to improve GI health, regulate insulin and glucose responses, reduce cardiac disease and cancer risks, and to help prevent overeating by helping to make one feel full. I am especially keen on the probable disease prevention benefit as my father died of colon cancer at age 59. Another way to think about it is simple common sense. Vegetables and fruits have been staples of the human diet for as long as humans have been - at least 100,000 years. We keep finding out more and more about all the health-promoting substances in them - vitamins, minerals, phytochemicals, etc... including fiber. It seems like a good idea to eat them. This goes back to the simple principle that it is better to eat in terms of foods and not nutrients. If you eat lots of fruits, nuts, and vegetables, you'll get plenty of fiber along with all the other good stuff, and won't ever have to think about fiber again. Conversely, a no-fiber diet would necessarily be devoid of unprocessed plant foods, and be deficient in a lot more than just fiber. On the other hand, processed fiber-containing stuff like processed grain foods, especially with concentrated bran additives, are an extremely new invention, and there are some good reasons to think they are hard to digest, non or anti-nutritious, and possibly even approaching poisonous for many. I doubt the scientific findings about health benefits I mentioned above went to a lot of trouble to test fiber from different sources and in different overall dietary contexts, so my bet is that the scientifically established benefits represent a pretty substantial underestimation of the real world benefits of eating lots of fruits, nuts, and vegetables. My overarching principle of nutrition science is that there is way more that we don't know than we do. It is in a relatively primitive stage of development, and has been working with flawed paradigms for most of its short existence. Because it has been largely based on studying isolated nutrients and processed foods, most of what we do know is of little practical importance to an individual trying to decide what to eat. I consider any lack of nutrition science evidence in this context, and stick with the big principles. As far as GI upset issues go, increasing the unprocessed plant content of your diet can cause temporary digestion problems. You either have to transition slowly or wait until your body gets used to it. Once it does, most people find lots of health problems disappearing, especially GI problems. Also, another thing I have found that irons out digestive problems to a surprising extent is Kefir, a probiotic fermented milk drink. It even did wonders for my dog. Start drinking some a few times per week and your indigestion problems might be reduced, although I expect reducing grain foods and other processed foods down to minimal levels in your overall diet would help even more. Wilbanks Wisconsin, USA > > > > Glen, > > > > Thanks. Not sure I agree on the egg-calorie thing but I do know > that my gut doesn't like fiber so much, especially in large > quantities. I do better by taking it easy on the oatmeal and > whole-wheat bread. > > > > Thanks for the explanation as to what you meant by high energy > turnover foods. > > > > Pérez > > Reynosa, Mexico > > > > ______________________________ > > > > From: Supertraining <mailto:Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:Supertraining <mailto:Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of glen stewart > > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 7:07 PM > > To: Supertraining <mailto:Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: RE: Counterintuitive Fatloss > > > > , > > > > Digestive stress and fatloss are two of the main conditions for > which fibre, bran in particular, is recommended. In my experience, > although it can be helpful for some, there are in fact other > alternatives. I have found that fibre, particularly cereal fibre, may > actually increase the risk of digestive stress. Although it is > supposed to travel through the gut at a faster rate, it does not > always do so and using it as a " stomach filler " when dieting is not > always good either. > > > > Constipation is a frequent complaint when people who have eaten a > high-fibre diet adopt a different macro percentage nutrition template. > However, that does not mean that the new diet is at fault. > Constipation is really caused by their previous diet. What happens is > this: > > > > You eat food and the waste is moved along the bowel by circular > muscles, in the same way as a worm moves. If you eat a high-fibre > diet, the fibre itself forces waste through and the circular bowel > action is made redundant. After a while it stops working. Now you > change to a more natural diet with a lower fibre intake and your bowel > muscles don't work as they should, so you get constipated. The muscles > will recover if you keep eating appropriately, (lower-carb, > higher-fat) and drinking more water. What you should not do is go back > to the high-fibre regime that caused the problem in the first place. > Obviously seasonal vegetables (raw & warmed) and fruits (raw, > preferably with skin) are good, but not in the vast quantities some > people suggest. > > > > One of the current and widely accepted nutritional strategies is to > eat 5-6 small meals a day. In theory, this will minimize hunger, limit > insulin spikes and raise metabolism. This strategy was born out of the > body building culture where the requirement to maintain 250 plus > pounds of body weight is only achieved through a huge food intake. > Great if you're a lineman, shot putter or heavy weight category athlete. > > > > Frequent feeding is not necessary if fat loss is the goal and you > have no desire to be heavy! Pre and post workout meals in theory are > designed to offset training stress. Don't train on the nerve and you > minimize one of the biggest muscle growth inhibitors...cortisol! Food > ingestion produces insulin (a fat utilization inhibitor). In a fasted > state and a brief time after exercise, why not take advantage of > elevated growth hormone and high enzyme activity (especially lipase), > which mobilize FFA's. Obviously, food consumption is necessary, but > more importantly eating after physical stress (exercise) & > macronutrient depletion (fasting) will create a more efficient fat > usage environment. Then when you do eat, consume high energy turnover > foods. For example a standard chicken egg contains about 90 calories. > To digest that egg requires about 100 calories! So if you consume > foods that have high energy digestive requirements, you create an > enhanced thermic effect (higher > > metabolism) through nutrition. What are high energy turnover foods? > Natural foods such as animal proteins and fats. One cyclic > macronutrient breakdown will be approx 40% fat, 30% protein & 30% > carbohydrates. If you consume fatty fish and fatty grains, along with > good oils, nuts, avocados and full cream dairy your fat intake will > become dominant. > > > > With this in mind however, just as feed forward tension re lifting > is not well known or understood, so to the importance of fat in our > nutrition is misunderstood. As cyclic training in sport is necessary, > so to is nutritional cycling, macronutrient cycling, and phases of > depletion and compensation important. > > > > Note a 12 hour plus fast might include night time sleep and 4 plus > hours might be between meals. > > ====================================== > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 , Good points all. Thanks. Kefir - excellent stuff. I give it to my kids every day! Pérez Reynosa, Mexico ============================= ________________________________ From: Supertraining [mailto:Supertraining ] On Behalf Of Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 3:01 PM To: Supertraining Subject: Re: Counterintuitive Fatloss Sorry, I got mixed up about who posted what about eggs. As far as fiber being necessary, I guess that depends on necessary for what. You could probably count on living long enough to breed with a no-fiber diet, so I guess it isn't evolutionarily necessary. In terms of my definition of basic health and quality of life, I consider it necessary. It has been shown to improve GI health, regulate insulin and glucose responses, reduce cardiac disease and cancer risks, and to help prevent overeating by helping to make one feel full. I am especially keen on the probable disease prevention benefit as my father died of colon cancer at age 59. Another way to think about it is simple common sense. Vegetables and fruits have been staples of the human diet for as long as humans have been - at least 100,000 years. We keep finding out more and more about all the health-promoting substances in them - vitamins, minerals, phytochemicals, etc... including fiber. It seems like a good idea to eat them. This goes back to the simple principle that it is better to eat in terms of foods and not nutrients. If you eat lots of fruits, nuts, and vegetables, you'll get plenty of fiber along with all the other good stuff, and won't ever have to think about fiber again. Conversely, a no-fiber diet would necessarily be devoid of unprocessed plant foods, and be deficient in a lot more than just fiber. On the other hand, processed fiber-containing stuff like processed grain foods, especially with concentrated bran additives, are an extremely new invention, and there are some good reasons to think they are hard to digest, non or anti-nutritious, and possibly even approaching poisonous for many. I doubt the scientific findings about health benefits I mentioned above went to a lot of trouble to test fiber from different sources and in different overall dietary contexts, so my bet is that the scientifically established benefits represent a pretty substantial underestimation of the real world benefits of eating lots of fruits, nuts, and vegetables. My overarching principle of nutrition science is that there is way more that we don't know than we do. It is in a relatively primitive stage of development, and has been working with flawed paradigms for most of its short existence. Because it has been largely based on studying isolated nutrients and processed foods, most of what we do know is of little practical importance to an individual trying to decide what to eat. I consider any lack of nutrition science evidence in this context, and stick with the big principles. As far as GI upset issues go, increasing the unprocessed plant content of your diet can cause temporary digestion problems. You either have to transition slowly or wait until your body gets used to it. Once it does, most people find lots of health problems disappearing, especially GI problems. Also, another thing I have found that irons out digestive problems to a surprising extent is Kefir, a probiotic fermented milk drink. It even did wonders for my dog. Start drinking some a few times per week and your indigestion problems might be reduced, although I expect reducing grain foods and other processed foods down to minimal levels in your overall diet would help even more. Wilbanks Wisconsin, USA > > , > > It seems you are attributing to me a statement made by Glen, namely that eggs take more energy to digest than they provide. What I did say is that I can't agree with that very statement. > > You make a good point when you say I shouldn't assume that the problem with whole-wheat bread and oatmeal resides in their fiber content. In truth, I came to this conclusion empirically, as I noticed that eating white bread before bed does not give me heartburn while eating whole-wheat bread does. Since eating oatmeal at this time will often result in heartburn as well (in my case), I went and assumed that it was the fiber that did me in. > > I have indeed noticed that when I minimize or eliminate grains from my diet, things tend to work much better. And, I agree that grains are not the best food choice for humans. > > That said, I am not aware of any evidence or proof that fiber from any source is essential. > > > Pérez > Reynosa, Mexico Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 **** Refined carbs from grains cause obesity and even diabetes in certain populations. **** No they don't. Overeating and being fat and sedentary causes most cases of type 2 diabetes. As a diabetes specialist physician told me recently: " Let's not mince words, these people are *fat*. ****The Navajo people used to be skinny and healthy > until they started eating grains, now they have colossal rates of > obesity and are a focal point for worldwide diabetes research.**** Grains have nothing to do with it. This is an enduring myth. Many indigenous groups are susceptible to type 2 diabetes, probably because their genetic makeup is sensitive to excess energy intake -- fat storage etc -- not because of grains. Interestingly, in the Pima Indians, two different cultures exist: those living a more traditional lifestyle in Mexico with a diet mostly vegetarian with corn and squash and potatoes, and another group in Arizona who have settled in to a western diet with a high consumption of fat and refined sugars and starch. The Pima living a traditional agricultural lifestyle in Mexico have dramatically lower incidence of diabetes on a high grain and vegetable diet and plenty of hard work. Their fiber intake is estimated at 50gms/day compared to 15 gms/day for the Arizona Pima with western, high-fat diet and very high rates of diabetes. http://www.paleobioticslab.com/pima_diabetes.htm http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/pima/obesity/obesity.htm The story is essentially the same for the Navajo. Intake of nutrients and food sources of nutrients among the Navajo: findings from the Navajo Health and Nutrition Survey. Ballew C, White LL, Strauss KF, Benson LJ, Mendlein JM, Mokdad AH. J Nutr. 1997 Oct;127(10 Suppl):2085S-2093S. Regarding grains in general and type 2 diabetes risk, the evidence seems to indicate that rather than causing diabetes, whole grains are actually protective. See this study: Whole grain, bran, and germ intake and risk of type 2 diabetes: a prospective cohort study and systematic review. de Munter JS, Hu FB, Spiegelman D, Franz M, van Dam RM. PLoS Med. 2007 Aug;4(8):e261. " CONCLUSIONS: Whole grain intake is inversely associated with risk of type 2 diabetes, and this association is stronger for bran than for germ. Findings from prospective cohort studies consistently support increasing whole grain consumption for the prevention of type 2 diabetes. " Gympie, Australia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2008 Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 Overeating and being fat? How do you think they got fat? Why do you think they started overeating? They just suddenly decided to start eating excessively and getting fat one day, after thousands of years of behaving differently? As you point out, I sort of convoluted two different issues in which grains are a major culprit in my posts, and two different forms of grain. The issue with whole grains are the many compounds they contain that block nutrient absorption. These issues are still there with a lot of contemporary processed " whole grain " products, and sometimes made worse. This is tolerable when the grains are eaten in small amounts, but starts to cause malnutrition disease when grain begins to make up around half one's diet. The issue with refined grains, particularly white flours, is that eating them triggers hormonal responses that lead to obesity. Not only do they directly trigger fat storage, but they also cause rapid spikes and declines in blood sugar that lean one to be way too hungry again way too soon. The same goes, of course, for refined sugar. In general, refining carbohydrates into a powder or syrup at all appears to be the problem. As for fat, I think it has been overrated as a fattener. Due to calorie density, it makes it easier to get fat faster once you start the overeating cycle, but it's the refined carbs that drive it. An example is Eskimos that had diets that were mostly blubber for who knows how long, not having obesity problems. Then they started eating sugar... Hence, I conclude that there are serious problems with eating grains - whether refined or not - if one is shooting for optimal health. Grains were important for the development of civilization, and can be important to keep people from starving outright in many situations. When you are starving, malnutrition is an improvement... anything with calories is an improvemnt. However, for an individual in the industrialized world with plenty of food money and access to contemporary grocery stores and restaurants, they are not a good food, except in minor proportions... refined grains in even smaller amounts. I don't find this strange at all, because the same seems to apply to other types of food and we just take it for granted - fungus, for instance. Mushrooms in moderation are fine, but no one is constructing a food pyramid where half one's calories come from mushrooms. Wilbanks Wisconsin, USA > > **** Refined carbs from grains cause obesity and even diabetes in > certain populations. **** > > No they don't. Overeating and being fat and sedentary causes most > cases of type 2 diabetes. As a diabetes specialist physician told me > recently: " Let's not mince words, these people are *fat*. > > ****The Navajo people used to be skinny and healthy > > until they started eating grains, now they have colossal rates of > > obesity and are a focal point for worldwide diabetes research.**** > > Grains have nothing to do with it. This is an enduring myth. Many > indigenous groups are susceptible to type 2 diabetes, probably > because their genetic makeup is sensitive to excess energy intake -- > fat storage etc -- not because of grains. Interestingly, in the Pima > Indians, two different cultures exist: those living a more > traditional lifestyle in Mexico with a diet mostly vegetarian with > corn and squash and potatoes, and another group in Arizona who have > settled in to a western diet with a high consumption of fat and > refined sugars and starch. The Pima living a traditional agricultural > lifestyle in Mexico have dramatically lower incidence of diabetes on > a high grain and vegetable diet and plenty of hard work. Their fiber > intake is estimated at 50gms/day compared to 15 gms/day for the > Arizona Pima with western, high-fat diet and very high rates of > diabetes. > > http://www.paleobioticslab.com/pima_diabetes.htm > http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/pima/obesity/obesity.htm > > The story is essentially the same for the Navajo. > > Intake of nutrients and food sources of nutrients among the Navajo: > findings from the Navajo Health and Nutrition Survey. Ballew C, White > LL, Strauss KF, Benson LJ, Mendlein JM, Mokdad AH. J Nutr. 1997 > Oct;127(10 Suppl):2085S-2093S. > > Regarding grains in general and type 2 diabetes risk, the evidence > seems to indicate that rather than causing diabetes, whole grains are > actually protective. See this study: > > Whole grain, bran, and germ intake and risk of type 2 diabetes: a > prospective cohort study and systematic review. de Munter JS, Hu FB, > Spiegelman D, Franz M, van Dam RM. PLoS Med. 2007 Aug;4(8):e261. > > " CONCLUSIONS: Whole grain intake is inversely associated with risk of > type 2 diabetes, and this association is stronger for bran than for > germ. Findings from prospective cohort studies consistently support > increasing whole grain consumption for the prevention of type 2 > diabetes. " > > > Gympie, Australia > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2008 Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 There is a difference in grain products. You are correct in stating whole grains. The important point states is " refined carbs " . These are unhealthy and cheap. Look at corn syrup and all the things it is used for. Look at the flours used in bread products. Sticking to whole foods is good. The refinement of whole foods to many of the products we eat/drink instead is unhealthy and has led to a great deal of the obesity problem we are facing. Activity, or lack there of, is the other big factor. Terry Aurora, IL -------------------------------------- wrote: **** Refined carbs from grains cause obesity and even diabetes in certain populations. **** No they don't. Overeating and being fat and sedentary causes most cases of type 2 diabetes. As a diabetes specialist physician told me recently: " Let's not mince words, these people are *fat*. ****The Navajo people used to be skinny and healthy > until they started eating grains, now they have colossal rates of > obesity and are a focal point for worldwide diabetes research.**** Grains have nothing to do with it. This is an enduring myth. Many indigenous groups are susceptible to type 2 diabetes, probably because their genetic makeup is sensitive to excess energy intake -- fat storage etc -- not because of grains. Interestingly, in the Pima Indians, two different cultures exist: those living a more traditional lifestyle in Mexico with a diet mostly vegetarian with corn and squash and potatoes, and another group in Arizona who have settled in to a western diet with a high consumption of fat and refined sugars and starch. The Pima living a traditional agricultural lifestyle in Mexico have dramatically lower incidence of diabetes on a high grain and vegetable diet and plenty of hard work. Their fiber intake is estimated at 50gms/day compared to 15 gms/day for the Arizona Pima with western, high-fat diet and very high rates of diabetes. http://www.paleobioticslab.com/pima_diabetes.htm http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/pima/obesity/obesity.htm The story is essentially the same for the Navajo. Intake of nutrients and food sources of nutrients among the Navajo: findings from the Navajo Health and Nutrition Survey. Ballew C, White LL, Strauss KF, Benson LJ, Mendlein JM, Mokdad AH. J Nutr. 1997 Oct;127(10 Suppl):2085S-2093S. Regarding grains in general and type 2 diabetes risk, the evidence seems to indicate that rather than causing diabetes, whole grains are actually protective. See this study: Whole grain, bran, and germ intake and risk of type 2 diabetes: a prospective cohort study and systematic review. de Munter JS, Hu FB, Spiegelman D, Franz M, van Dam RM. PLoS Med. 2007 Aug;4(8):e261. " CONCLUSIONS: Whole grain intake is inversely associated with risk of type 2 diabetes, and this association is stronger for bran than for germ. Findings from prospective cohort studies consistently support increasing whole grain consumption for the prevention of type 2 diabetes. " ====================================== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 **** Overeating and being fat? How do you think they got fat? Why do you > think they started overeating? They just suddenly decided to start > eating excessively and getting fat one day, after thousands of years > of behaving differently?**** Civilisation evolved from the Neolithic period about 10,000 years ago, but the essential difference between the diets of hunter- gatherers then and now is food abundance - fat, protein, carbohydrates and extreme availability -- it's not just because of grains. **** As you point out, I sort of convoluted two different issues in which grains are a major culprit in my posts, and two different forms of grain. > The issue with whole grains are the many compounds they contain that > block nutrient absorption. These issues are still there with a lot of contemporary processed " whole grain " products, and sometimes made > worse. This is tolerable when the grains are eaten in small amounts, > but starts to cause malnutrition disease when grain begins to make up around half one's diet.**** Tell that to a billion or so rural Asians who exist on rice several times a day. In any case that's an argument for a balanced diet and has nothing to do with grains per se. I've shown you that whole grains can help prevent diabetes. Here is evidence that whole grains help prevent heart disease as well. Nutr Metab Cardiovasc Dis. 2007 Apr 19 Whole grain intake and cardiovascular disease: A meta-analysis. Mellen PB, Walsh TF, Herrington DM. " CONCLUSIONS: There is a consistent, inverse association between dietary whole grains and incident cardiovascular disease in epidemiological cohort studies. In light of this evidence, policy- makers, scientists, and clinicians should redouble efforts to incorporate clear messages on the beneficial effects of whole grains into public health and clinical practice endeavors. " Do you now agree with me that a balanced diet with whole grains is a healthy diet? > The issue with refined grains, particularly white flours, is that > eating them triggers hormonal responses that lead to obesity. Overeating anything -- meat, fat, sugar, grains -- leads to obesity. The idea that, magically, a bowl of rice turns people into glutton robots is so far fetched that I wonder why so many people believe it. In any case, that's not an argument for excluding all grains from your diet. ****Not only do they directly trigger fat storage, but they also cause rapid spikes and declines in blood sugar that lean one to be way too hungry again way too soon. The same goes, of course, for refined sugar. In general, refining carbohydrates into a powder or syrup at all appears to be the problem. **** Of course too much refined sugar and flour can be a problem, but don't obscure your original contention that *all* grain foods are so bad that they should not be eaten at all. And, any fat that gets stored from whatever you eat is still available for energy use. In an energy-balanced diet, this dynamic around fat, carbohydrates and protein gets worked out so that you don't put on weight. Any mild fat storage from carbohydrates doesn't get stored away never to be got at at again. You might as well say that dietary fat triggers fat storage -- it makes about as much sense. Many types of foods precipitate food intolerances or allergic reactions. Nuts, milk (lactose), seafood, eggs, dairy, grains (gluten). If they don't agree with you, don't eat them; eat something else. In fact allergic anaphylactic reactions to some nuts and seafood and eggs can be life threatening. One doesn't see people running around telling all and sundry not to eat nuts or seafood or eggs -- which might kill them. The anti-grains movement is nothing more than an irrational cult. Gympie, Australia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 ertraining , " " wrote: > > > > **** Overeating and being fat? How do you think they got fat? Why > do you > > think they started overeating? They just suddenly decided to start > > eating excessively and getting fat one day, after thousands of years > > of behaving differently?**** > > Civilisation evolved from the Neolithic period about 10,000 years > ago, but the essential difference between the diets of hunter- > gatherers then and now is food abundance - fat, protein, > carbohydrates and extreme availability -- it's not just because of > grains. > > **** As you point out, I sort of convoluted two different issues in > which grains are a major culprit in my posts, and two different forms > of grain. > > The issue with whole grains are the many compounds they contain that > > block nutrient absorption. These issues are still there with a lot > of contemporary processed " whole grain " products, and sometimes made > > worse. This is tolerable when the grains are eaten in small amounts, > > but starts to cause malnutrition disease when grain begins to make > up around half one's diet.**** > > Tell that to a billion or so rural Asians who exist on rice several > times a day. In any case that's an argument for a balanced diet and > has nothing to do with grains per se. I've shown you that whole > grains can help prevent diabetes. Here is evidence that whole grains > help prevent heart disease as well. > > Nutr Metab Cardiovasc Dis. 2007 Apr 19 > Whole grain intake and cardiovascular disease: A meta-analysis. > Mellen PB, Walsh TF, Herrington DM. > > " CONCLUSIONS: There is a consistent, inverse association between > dietary whole grains and incident cardiovascular disease in > epidemiological cohort studies. In light of this evidence, policy- > makers, scientists, and clinicians should redouble efforts to > incorporate clear messages on the beneficial effects of whole grains > into public health and clinical practice endeavors. " > > Do you now agree with me that a balanced diet with whole grains is a > healthy diet? > #### First, I don't buy that sheer abundance of food is more important than dietary composition. I don't think we know much about how abundant food was 10 to 90,000 years ago. We do know that the US and Europe have had abundant food for large classes of people for long periods of time. It is only recently, with the rise of processed foods containing flours, sugars, and now fake fats, that obesity rates have skyrocketed. As for Asians " surviving " on heavy rice diets, I thought we were talking about optimal health here. Last I read, estimates were about 40% of the surviving world population suffers from malnutritive micronutrient deficiencies. Zinc deficiency is rampant in Asia, historic outbreaks of beriberi in SE Asia are known to have been caused by polished-rice heavy diets. Have you seen all the work being done by ag scientists to try to reduce antinutrient content of various grains - even those intended to feed factory-farmed food animals - via selective breeding and even genetic engineering? The implication is that it is well-known among ag scientists that high grain diets aren't even fit for livestock. As for these two studies, I can't read the details right now, so I don't know that they illustrate anything. Did these studies put grain-heavy diets up against alternative whole food diets with equivalent amounts of fiber and other major nutrients known to have effects on diabetes and heart risks? > > The issue with refined grains, particularly white flours, is that > > eating them triggers hormonal responses that lead to obesity. > > Overeating anything -- meat, fat, sugar, grains -- leads to obesity. > The idea that, magically, a bowl of rice turns people into glutton > robots is so far fetched that I wonder why so many people believe it. > In any case, that's not an argument for excluding all grains from > your diet. > > ****Not only do they directly trigger fat storage, but they also > cause rapid spikes and declines in blood sugar that lean one to be > way too hungry again way too soon. The same goes, of course, for > refined sugar. In general, refining carbohydrates into a powder or > syrup at all appears to be the problem. **** > > Of course too much refined sugar and flour can be a problem, but > don't obscure your original contention that *all* grain foods are so > bad that they should not be eaten at all. > > And, any fat that gets stored from whatever you eat is still > available for energy use. In an energy-balanced diet, this dynamic > around fat, carbohydrates and protein gets worked out so that you > don't put on weight. Any mild fat storage from carbohydrates doesn't > get stored away never to be got at at again. You might as well say > that dietary fat triggers fat storage -- it makes about as much sense. > > Many types of foods precipitate food intolerances or allergic > reactions. Nuts, milk (lactose), seafood, eggs, dairy, grains > (gluten). If they don't agree with you, don't eat them; eat something > else. In fact allergic anaphylactic reactions to some nuts and > seafood and eggs can be life threatening. > > One doesn't see people running around telling all and sundry not to > eat nuts or seafood or eggs -- which might kill them. The anti-grains > movement is nothing more than an irrational cult. > Try re-reading. I said grains are not a good food for optimal health... and clarified that what I meant by that was in large proportions. I said I think one should eat small amounts, as I think one should eat a very wide variety of food, based once again on the principle that there is still much about nutrition we do not know. See my fungus analogy. If I was making a food pyramid, grains would be the pointy part on the top, not the huge slab on the bottom. The point you seem to be missing with your idea that fat stored can always be taken off is that if you keep eating flour and sugar, you keep overeating and you keep putting it on. Yes, overeating is the problem. I am saying that eating a type of food that shoots your blood sugar up, drops it like a rock, and makes you exceedingly hungry long before you could ever burn up the calories - directly triggering fat storage all the while - is the biggest factor. I believe 1 or 2 pounds per year of constant weight gain is average for Americans. Yes, there are other foods that cause allergic reactions. As for stats on the relative prevalance, it is actually heavily skewed towards the types that send you to the hospital upon acute consumption, for obvious reasons. Grain allergies - celiac disease in particular - tend to have less-acknowledged chronic symptoms, and are often undiagnosed. I am not part of any movement. However, labeling it a cult isn't particularly damning, considering the prevalent positions of the current establishment regarding nutrition and optimizing health in general. Most doctors are still telling people not to eat cholesterol and that moderate aerobics are the only important type of exercise. New ideas are always minority opinions. Wilbanks Wisconsin, USA > > Gympie, Australia > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 > One doesn't see people running around telling all and sundry not to > eat nuts or seafood or eggs -- which might kill them. The anti-grains > movement is nothing more than an irrational cult. > > > Gympie, Australia > Thank-you for bringing science and reason to the often irrational topic of nutrition and nutrient consumption. The anti-(good) carbohydrate/pro-protein movement has lost sight of the overwhelming evidence for high intake of whole food carbohydates in promoting health (e.g., see the American Institute for Cancer Research website). Brett Carr Fairfield, CT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 > #### > > First, I don't buy that sheer abundance of food is more important than > dietary composition. I don't think we know much about how abundant > food was 10 to 90,000 years ago. We do know that the US and Europe > have had abundant food for large classes of people for long periods of > time. It is only recently, with the rise of processed foods > containing flours, sugars, and now fake fats, that obesity rates have > skyrocketed. > You bring up an interesting point. We know that US and Europe had abundant food for the happy few, not for the masses. That only happened recently. If you don't believe obesity existed back then, look at a photograph of Bismarck, read the jokes about fat clergymen and doctors. Those were the happy few that had abundant access to food. And they were fat. This wasn't considered a serious condition back then, it was a sign of prosperity. Regards, Johan Bastiaansen Hasselt, Belgium Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 --- wreckless61a wrote: > > > #### > > > > First, I don't buy that sheer abundance of food is > more important > than > > dietary composition. I don't think we know much > about how abundant > > food was 10 to 90,000 years ago. We do know that > the US and Europe > > have had abundant food for large classes of people > for long periods > of > > time. It is only recently, with the rise of > processed foods > > containing flours, sugars, and now fake fats, that > obesity rates > have > > skyrocketed. > > > You bring up an interesting point. We know that US > and Europe had > abundant food for the happy few, not for the masses. > That only > happened recently. > > If you don't believe obesity existed back then, look > at a photograph > of Bismarck, read the jokes about fat clergymen and > doctors. Those > were the happy few that had abundant access to food. > And they were > fat. This wasn't considered a serious condition back > then, it was a > sign of prosperity. > > Regards, > Johan Bastiaansen > Hasselt, Belgium > > I grew up in the 50's (born 1941). Food was in abundance, but obesity was very rare. All the sugary cereals that are on the shelves in the supermarket now where also present when I was a kid. My favorite was sugar pops. As a kid the favorite stop on the way home was the candy store where we loaded up on coca cola, chocolate candy bars etc. The same candy bars that you find on the shelves today existed when I was a kid. Baby Ruth (named after presidents daughter and not Babe Ruth), Three muscateers, Tootsie rolls were the favoritea. The difference between when I was a kid an now is that even in elementary school I had to walk to school and back twice a day. We had to walk home for lunch and back to school for the afternoon session. My mother did not drive, most families had only one car which was used for long trips and Sunday drives, so when I wanted to play ball I had to get on my bike and ride to the ball field. My mother walked to the grocery store. Etc. What has brought about obesity is lack of physical activity. There were very few places to workout in those days. Most people had enough of a workout in their every day job. Yes there is an abundance of food but more importantly there is a lack of daily physical activity (NEAT). The fat gentry mentioned above not only had an abundance of food but they had the poor to do their physical labor. As for flours and grains causing obesity that also is somewhat of a myth. There are plenty of individuals who consume a high carb diet with plenty of starch in the form of pasta, potato, rice, bread etc who have 7-10% body fat. Ralph Giarnella MD Southington Ct USA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 Hi I have been following your post and need some clarity, as I think that one must look at what is being said. In your last post you say " Grains have some stuff in them we know is good for us, but some that is not so good, and there is certainly more, probably of both, than current science understands. This is why I say it is good to eat grains, just not very much. If we lived in a culture where no one ate any grains, I'd probably come on here and argue that it was okay to eat some. As it is, we live in a culture that is massively over-consuming them, so I argue against them. " You have previously stated that grains contain toxins that require processing to remove e.g. beans are soaked for 24hours prior to use or cooked for extended periods to remove the toxins. You have also stated that processed grains as in highly processed starches are causing obesity and health problems, (your sentence above surely applies to over processed foods) are the toxins not removed by this processing? Is not the removal of the for example germ from the wheat the problem rather than the starchy carbohydrates. Wheat germ oil goes rancid very fast and to secure very long supply chains into city dwellers the germ is removed, but the essential oils needed in our diet that are in the wheat are removed making the grain less wholesome. Now for my second contention: As for existing versus optimum nutrition, here in Africa top level athletes, the diet of most African countries is very high is grains, corn meal, cassava etc. The Kenyan middle and long distance runners eat as much as 70% of their diet from corn meal, and success is one of the attributes of top runners form Kenya. Ethiopia has some of the best middle/long ( distance runners current world record holder 5000m and 10000m if I'm not mistaken) and they also eat diets very high in starchy grains. South African 800m runners have succeeded and they definitely eats pap (a kind of grits but finer). Ultra marathon runners consume diets very high in carbohydrates from starchy grains, in fact carbo loading is significant part of training. Rugby players need to eat diets higher in carbohydrates than say football players because of the lack of rest in the game, traditional food amongst South African's who love rugby is to eat what is called braaivleis and pap and beer. That is a barbecued meat and grits the nearest US equivalent. We control eating better in the professional era, but 1995 South won the world cup in the amateur era. Personally I grew up eating a mixture of samp (grits like roughly ground corn) and beans for many meals as this was the most nutritious meal my single mom could afford. I did OK at school sports and prospered at university level sports. I am also not lactose intolerant I must be a mutant :-) Best Regards Nick Tatalias Johannesburg South Africa > > > > > > > Grains were eaten at least 30,000 years ago, according to most recent > > archaeological diggings, in Israel as I recall. The argument against > > grains is that we have not evolved genes to deal with them. However, > > many of us seem to have managed to adapt to animal milk in adult > > years, lactose tolerance, in a much shorter time frame -- less than > > 10,000 years -- so I doubt that argument is valid. > > > > Regarding anti-nutrients and toxins in grains, be aware that many > > foods have toxic principles, many of which are dealt with by cooking, > > and others by human metabolism. In addition, my comment about rice > > was meant to imply that if grains were toxic or bad for health, the > > population explosions we see in Asian countries, including many long- > > lived communities, would not be seen. > > > > > > Gympie, Australia > > > > First of all, the mass transition of humans from hunter-gatherer to > agriculture was about 10,000 years ago at most. A little evidence > that some peoples were eating them significantly prior to that doesn't > mean much in this context. Unless lots of people were farming grain > foods, very little of them were being eaten. The chances that the > mass of humanity's genes started changing based on a few people eating > an occasional snack is not that great. > > Second, your milk analogy is actually going to end up working against > you. It is true that *some* of us can now digest milk very well. > Last time I checked, the only contemporary populations in which more > than half of people can easily digest milk are those originating in > northern Europe, which has less than 10% lactose intolerance. The > rest of the world is well over 50% intolerant. So, in 10,000 years, a > small minority of humans developed the ability to digest milk, the > rest are less than halfway there. > > Third, evolution is not so simple. Even if everyone could digest milk > by now, it doesn't mean adaptation to other foods would follow the > same time line. People could just as easily have adapted to eating > grains in a few hundred years, or not at all up until this day. I > don't rely on the evolution argument, I just think hundreds of > thousands of years vs. less than ten thousand is suggestive. I > suspect that we have adapted to digesting grains in that time, > somewhat, but there are still some problems. > > Grains have some stuff in them we know is good for us, but some that > is not so good, and there is certainly more, probably of both, than > current science understands. This is why I say it is good to eat > grains, just not very much. If we lived in a culture where no one ate > any grains, I'd probably come on here and argue that it was okay to > eat some. As it is, we live in a culture that is massively > over-consuming them, so I argue against them. > > As for the Asia/population argument, I don't see anyone suggesting > that grains are so unhealthy that you will drop dead from eating them > prior to reaching puberty. Hence, I don't see what breeding rates > would have to do with it. As I said, they may be breeding away, but > 40% of them have bad zinc deficiencies, and probably a bunch of other > health problems. We are talking about an optimal diet, not raw > survival. > > Wilbanks > Wisconsin, USA > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 Hi I have been following your post and need some clarity, as I think that one must look at what is being said. In your last post you say " Grains have some stuff in them we know is good for us, but some that is not so good, and there is certainly more, probably of both, than current science understands. This is why I say it is good to eat grains, just not very much. If we lived in a culture where no one ate any grains, I'd probably come on here and argue that it was okay to eat some. As it is, we live in a culture that is massively over-consuming them, so I argue against them. " You have previously stated that grains contain toxins that require processing to remove e.g. beans are soaked for 24hours prior to use or cooked for extended periods to remove the toxins. You have also stated that processed grains as in highly processed starches are causing obesity and health problems, (your sentence above surely applies to over processed foods) are the toxins not removed by this processing? Is not the removal of the for example germ from the wheat the problem rather than the starchy carbohydrates. Wheat germ oil goes rancid very fast and to secure very long supply chains into city dwellers the germ is removed, but the essential oils needed in our diet that are in the wheat are removed making the grain less wholesome. Now for my second contention: As for existing versus optimum nutrition, here in Africa top level athletes, the diet of most African countries is very high is grains, corn meal, cassava etc. The Kenyan middle and long distance runners eat as much as 70% of their diet from corn meal, and success is one of the attributes of top runners form Kenya. Ethiopia has some of the best middle/long ( distance runners current world record holder 5000m and 10000m if I'm not mistaken) and they also eat diets very high in starchy grains. South African 800m runners have succeeded and they definitely eats pap (a kind of grits but finer). Ultra marathon runners consume diets very high in carbohydrates from starchy grains, in fact carbo loading is significant part of training. Rugby players need to eat diets higher in carbohydrates than say football players because of the lack of rest in the game, traditional food amongst South African's who love rugby is to eat what is called braaivleis and pap and beer. That is a barbecued meat and grits the nearest US equivalent. We control eating better in the professional era, but 1995 South won the world cup in the amateur era. Personally I grew up eating a mixture of samp (grits like roughly ground corn) and beans for many meals as this was the most nutritious meal my single mom could afford. I did OK at school sports and prospered at university level sports. I am also not lactose intolerant I must be a mutant :-) Best Regards Nick Tatalias Johannesburg South Africa > > > > > > > Grains were eaten at least 30,000 years ago, according to most recent > > archaeological diggings, in Israel as I recall. The argument against > > grains is that we have not evolved genes to deal with them. However, > > many of us seem to have managed to adapt to animal milk in adult > > years, lactose tolerance, in a much shorter time frame -- less than > > 10,000 years -- so I doubt that argument is valid. > > > > Regarding anti-nutrients and toxins in grains, be aware that many > > foods have toxic principles, many of which are dealt with by cooking, > > and others by human metabolism. In addition, my comment about rice > > was meant to imply that if grains were toxic or bad for health, the > > population explosions we see in Asian countries, including many long- > > lived communities, would not be seen. > > > > > > Gympie, Australia > > > > First of all, the mass transition of humans from hunter-gatherer to > agriculture was about 10,000 years ago at most. A little evidence > that some peoples were eating them significantly prior to that doesn't > mean much in this context. Unless lots of people were farming grain > foods, very little of them were being eaten. The chances that the > mass of humanity's genes started changing based on a few people eating > an occasional snack is not that great. > > Second, your milk analogy is actually going to end up working against > you. It is true that *some* of us can now digest milk very well. > Last time I checked, the only contemporary populations in which more > than half of people can easily digest milk are those originating in > northern Europe, which has less than 10% lactose intolerance. The > rest of the world is well over 50% intolerant. So, in 10,000 years, a > small minority of humans developed the ability to digest milk, the > rest are less than halfway there. > > Third, evolution is not so simple. Even if everyone could digest milk > by now, it doesn't mean adaptation to other foods would follow the > same time line. People could just as easily have adapted to eating > grains in a few hundred years, or not at all up until this day. I > don't rely on the evolution argument, I just think hundreds of > thousands of years vs. less than ten thousand is suggestive. I > suspect that we have adapted to digesting grains in that time, > somewhat, but there are still some problems. > > Grains have some stuff in them we know is good for us, but some that > is not so good, and there is certainly more, probably of both, than > current science understands. This is why I say it is good to eat > grains, just not very much. If we lived in a culture where no one ate > any grains, I'd probably come on here and argue that it was okay to > eat some. As it is, we live in a culture that is massively > over-consuming them, so I argue against them. > > As for the Asia/population argument, I don't see anyone suggesting > that grains are so unhealthy that you will drop dead from eating them > prior to reaching puberty. Hence, I don't see what breeding rates > would have to do with it. As I said, they may be breeding away, but > 40% of them have bad zinc deficiencies, and probably a bunch of other > health problems. We are talking about an optimal diet, not raw > survival. > > Wilbanks > Wisconsin, USA > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 The citation of elite endurance athletes as examples which somehow warrant generalizations that apply to the general population seems awfully silly to me. I guess I have to admit, if we just get everyone to ride their bikes at high speeds for 50 miles per day, my objections to grain-based diets won't apply. As to the processing, sometimes processing removes most of the antinutrients from grains. Unfortunately, the processed grain now causes insulin spikes and excessive hunger - next to trans-fats and oils damaged by excessive heating, these are the biggest problem foods in the US. Whole grains processed by contemporary means can be almost as bad, in addition also having the problem of fatty acid rancidity AND the antinutrient content. The best way to eat grains, in general, is to soak or ferment them first, as one does with beans. This tends to neutralize some of the There are many examples of this being the preferred way to eat grain in cultures around the world. Here are a couple of sources that can provide you with more details if you want to know antinutrients by name, and details of all the problems associated with high-grain diets. I don't really know much about the sites or their overall agendas, but if you'll notice, even they say it is okay to eat grains, just not too much and not ones cooked/processed in the wrong way. The characterization that this is some kind of cult phenomenon telling people grains are outright poisons is just uninformed hyperbole. http://www.thepaleodiet.com/articles/Cereal%20article.pdf http://www.westonaprice.org/foodfeatures/be_kind.html Wilbanks Wisconsin, USA > > > > > > > > Grains were eaten at least 30,000 years ago, according to most recent > > > archaeological diggings, in Israel as I recall. The argument against > > > grains is that we have not evolved genes to deal with them. However, > > > many of us seem to have managed to adapt to animal milk in adult > > > years, lactose tolerance, in a much shorter time frame -- less than > > > 10,000 years -- so I doubt that argument is valid. > > > > > > Regarding anti-nutrients and toxins in grains, be aware that many > > > foods have toxic principles, many of which are dealt with by cooking, > > > and others by human metabolism. In addition, my comment about rice > > > was meant to imply that if grains were toxic or bad for health, the > > > population explosions we see in Asian countries, including many long- > > > lived communities, would not be seen. > > > > > > > > > Gympie, Australia > > > > > > > First of all, the mass transition of humans from hunter-gatherer to > > agriculture was about 10,000 years ago at most. A little evidence > > that some peoples were eating them significantly prior to that doesn't > > mean much in this context. Unless lots of people were farming grain > > foods, very little of them were being eaten. The chances that the > > mass of humanity's genes started changing based on a few people eating > > an occasional snack is not that great. > > > > Second, your milk analogy is actually going to end up working against > > you. It is true that *some* of us can now digest milk very well. > > Last time I checked, the only contemporary populations in which more > > than half of people can easily digest milk are those originating in > > northern Europe, which has less than 10% lactose intolerance. The > > rest of the world is well over 50% intolerant. So, in 10,000 years, a > > small minority of humans developed the ability to digest milk, the > > rest are less than halfway there. > > > > Third, evolution is not so simple. Even if everyone could digest milk > > by now, it doesn't mean adaptation to other foods would follow the > > same time line. People could just as easily have adapted to eating > > grains in a few hundred years, or not at all up until this day. I > > don't rely on the evolution argument, I just think hundreds of > > thousands of years vs. less than ten thousand is suggestive. I > > suspect that we have adapted to digesting grains in that time, > > somewhat, but there are still some problems. > > > > Grains have some stuff in them we know is good for us, but some that > > is not so good, and there is certainly more, probably of both, than > > current science understands. This is why I say it is good to eat > > grains, just not very much. If we lived in a culture where no one ate > > any grains, I'd probably come on here and argue that it was okay to > > eat some. As it is, we live in a culture that is massively > > over-consuming them, so I argue against them. > > > > As for the Asia/population argument, I don't see anyone suggesting > > that grains are so unhealthy that you will drop dead from eating them > > prior to reaching puberty. Hence, I don't see what breeding rates > > would have to do with it. As I said, they may be breeding away, but > > 40% of them have bad zinc deficiencies, and probably a bunch of other > > health problems. We are talking about an optimal diet, not raw > > survival. > > > > Wilbanks > > Wisconsin, USA > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 The citation of elite endurance athletes as examples which somehow warrant generalizations that apply to the general population seems awfully silly to me. I guess I have to admit, if we just get everyone to ride their bikes at high speeds for 50 miles per day, my objections to grain-based diets won't apply. As to the processing, sometimes processing removes most of the antinutrients from grains. Unfortunately, the processed grain now causes insulin spikes and excessive hunger - next to trans-fats and oils damaged by excessive heating, these are the biggest problem foods in the US. Whole grains processed by contemporary means can be almost as bad, in addition also having the problem of fatty acid rancidity AND the antinutrient content. The best way to eat grains, in general, is to soak or ferment them first, as one does with beans. This tends to neutralize some of the There are many examples of this being the preferred way to eat grain in cultures around the world. Here are a couple of sources that can provide you with more details if you want to know antinutrients by name, and details of all the problems associated with high-grain diets. I don't really know much about the sites or their overall agendas, but if you'll notice, even they say it is okay to eat grains, just not too much and not ones cooked/processed in the wrong way. The characterization that this is some kind of cult phenomenon telling people grains are outright poisons is just uninformed hyperbole. http://www.thepaleodiet.com/articles/Cereal%20article.pdf http://www.westonaprice.org/foodfeatures/be_kind.html Wilbanks Wisconsin, USA > > > > > > > > Grains were eaten at least 30,000 years ago, according to most recent > > > archaeological diggings, in Israel as I recall. The argument against > > > grains is that we have not evolved genes to deal with them. However, > > > many of us seem to have managed to adapt to animal milk in adult > > > years, lactose tolerance, in a much shorter time frame -- less than > > > 10,000 years -- so I doubt that argument is valid. > > > > > > Regarding anti-nutrients and toxins in grains, be aware that many > > > foods have toxic principles, many of which are dealt with by cooking, > > > and others by human metabolism. In addition, my comment about rice > > > was meant to imply that if grains were toxic or bad for health, the > > > population explosions we see in Asian countries, including many long- > > > lived communities, would not be seen. > > > > > > > > > Gympie, Australia > > > > > > > First of all, the mass transition of humans from hunter-gatherer to > > agriculture was about 10,000 years ago at most. A little evidence > > that some peoples were eating them significantly prior to that doesn't > > mean much in this context. Unless lots of people were farming grain > > foods, very little of them were being eaten. The chances that the > > mass of humanity's genes started changing based on a few people eating > > an occasional snack is not that great. > > > > Second, your milk analogy is actually going to end up working against > > you. It is true that *some* of us can now digest milk very well. > > Last time I checked, the only contemporary populations in which more > > than half of people can easily digest milk are those originating in > > northern Europe, which has less than 10% lactose intolerance. The > > rest of the world is well over 50% intolerant. So, in 10,000 years, a > > small minority of humans developed the ability to digest milk, the > > rest are less than halfway there. > > > > Third, evolution is not so simple. Even if everyone could digest milk > > by now, it doesn't mean adaptation to other foods would follow the > > same time line. People could just as easily have adapted to eating > > grains in a few hundred years, or not at all up until this day. I > > don't rely on the evolution argument, I just think hundreds of > > thousands of years vs. less than ten thousand is suggestive. I > > suspect that we have adapted to digesting grains in that time, > > somewhat, but there are still some problems. > > > > Grains have some stuff in them we know is good for us, but some that > > is not so good, and there is certainly more, probably of both, than > > current science understands. This is why I say it is good to eat > > grains, just not very much. If we lived in a culture where no one ate > > any grains, I'd probably come on here and argue that it was okay to > > eat some. As it is, we live in a culture that is massively > > over-consuming them, so I argue against them. > > > > As for the Asia/population argument, I don't see anyone suggesting > > that grains are so unhealthy that you will drop dead from eating them > > prior to reaching puberty. Hence, I don't see what breeding rates > > would have to do with it. As I said, they may be breeding away, but > > 40% of them have bad zinc deficiencies, and probably a bunch of other > > health problems. We are talking about an optimal diet, not raw > > survival. > > > > Wilbanks > > Wisconsin, USA > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 If diabetics can't die in minutes from insulin shock, we need to get out the shovels and head to the graveyards. Many people have been mistakenly buried alive! Many of your arguments here have fallacy problems, for instance: Things that effect competitive endurance athletes don't necessarily apply to normal people. I never said eating processed carbs caused diabetes. That's a strawman. Your father ate mostly beans and rice and had no malnutrition problems? How do you know that? A big pile of periodic extensive blood test records collected over his entire lifetime? It sounds impossible to me to eat the diet you described and not have malnutrition problems. My grandparents and their families were from that generation. They ate a diet more varied than you describe, yet mostly overcooked. From what I could see, they all had malnourishment problems, evidenced by heart disease, teeth falling out, lack of mental acuity, and so forth, starting as young as in their 50's. It is true that the ones who lived the most active life lasted the longest, but they weren't in very good condition for the last 20 to 30 years. Overall, I would have to agree that lack of physical activity is more damaging to health than overconsumption of grains, but it doesn't mean overconsumption of of grains isn't bad. Wilbanks Wisconsin, USA > > > > > > > > I grew up in the 50's (born 1941). Food was in > > > abundance, but obesity was very rare. All the > > sugary > > > cereals that are on the shelves in the supermarket > > now > > > where also present when I was a kid. My favorite > > was > > > sugar pops. > > > > > > As a kid the favorite stop on the way home was the > > > candy store where we loaded up on coca cola, > > chocolate > > > candy bars etc. The same candy bars that you find > > on > > > the shelves today existed when I was a kid. Baby > > Ruth > > > (named after presidents daughter and not Babe > > Ruth), > > > Three muscateers, Tootsie rolls were the > > favoritea. > > > > > > The difference between when I was a kid an now is > > that > > > even in elementary school I had to walk to school > > and > > > back twice a day. We had to walk home for lunch > > and > > > back to school for the afternoon session. > > > > > > My mother did not drive, most families had only > > one > > > car which was used for long trips and Sunday > > drives, > > > so when I wanted to play ball I had to get on my > > bike > > > and ride to the ball field. > > > > > > My mother walked to the grocery store. Etc. > > > What has brought about obesity is lack of physical > > > activity. > > > > > > There were very few places to workout in those > > days. > > > Most people had enough of a workout in their every > > day > > > job. > > > > > > Yes there is an abundance of food but more > > importantly > > > there is a lack of daily physical activity (NEAT). > > > > > > > > The fat gentry mentioned above not only had an > > > abundance of food but they had the poor to do > > their > > > physical labor. > > > > > > As for flours and grains causing obesity that also > > is > > > somewhat of a myth. There are plenty of > > individuals > > > who consume a high carb diet with plenty of starch > > in > > > the form of pasta, potato, rice, bread etc who > > have > > > 7-10% body fat. > > > > > > Ralph Giarnella MD > > > Southington Ct USA > > > > > > > The first problem with what you are saying is > > temporal. If eating all > > the sugary starchy stuff you describe became popular > > when you were a > > kid, then your generation is part of the stats that > > make up the > > current obesity epidemic. Were adults and > > geriatrics eating like that > > back then? > > Actually my generation ( I am 67 ) is not part of the > stats for obesity. The obesity epidemic is affecting > mostly our present below 40 generation and is even > worse amongst our present teenage generation. > > > > Second, are there really " plenty " of people who chow > > down on processed > > carbs and remain bodybuilding contest thin? Where > > did you get this > > information? I don't doubt that there are a few > > people who can do > > this. > > Take a look at all the runners, cyclists, and rowers. > I have spent the past 20+ years associating myself > with cyclists of all ages as well as runners and > recently with rowers and their diet consists primarily > of high carb 60-70% and the serious cyclists, rowers > and runners - those who train 15-20 hrs a week have no > problem maintaining body fat % of less than 10%. > Whereas I find it curious that the body builders and > weight lifters seemed to be obsessed in trying to find > ways in getting to low % body fat. The only obsession > I find in the endurance athletes I mentioned is how to > eat enough food to maintain their daily energy output. > The cyclists even carry water bottles and hydration > systems on their bikes filled with high carb drinks > just to get them through their training. > > Their existence does not prove anything. > > There is quite > > obviously a spectrum of varying metabolic > > constitutions among humans. > > Some are so intolerant of sugars and flours that we > > call them > > diabetics, and improperly eating these substances > > can actually kill > > them in minutes. > > In my 35+ years of practicing medicine and treating > diabetics I have never seen one die in minutes from > improperly eating sugars and flour. There is no > question that uncontrolled diabetes eventually kills > but not in minutes. > > I agree that once an individual is a diabetic they > need to monitor their diet as well as lose weight and > exercise but it is wrong to think that eating a high > carb diet will cause diabetes. Anyone who makes that > statement obviously does not understand diabetes. > > The problem with diabetics (type II) is primarily > insulin resistance caused for the most part by lack of > physical activity. Because they are relatively > inactive their body is unable to utilize the glucose > they ingest. > > If you take these same diabetics and put them into > an exercise program there is a marked decrease in > insulin resistance and they are better able to handle > glucose. I have had patients reverse their diabetes, > despite being still overweight and is some cases still > obese by having them start exercising and losing some > of their weight. > > It is not the glucose that causes diabetes type II, it > is the insulin resistance. > > Some are rail-thin and can gorge > > on 5000 calories of > > donuts per day without gaining an ounce of fat. > > Most of us are > > somewhere in between. The obesity statistics > > suggest that " average " > > on this spectrum is a lot closer to the diabetic > > than the stick figure. > > > > Wilbanks > > Wisconsin, USA > > I have a number of patients in my practice who are > thin type II diabetics. Their problem is caused by > inadequate muscle mass to support their glucose > intake. Most of my older diabetics (>70) are thin > type II diabetics characterized by lower muscle mass > caused by age related inactivity. > > India has a high incidence of diabetes but not > obesity. In India the typical diabetic is thin (low > muscle mass) but has increased intra abdominal fat. > > I also have quite a few obese patients in my practice > who have no evidence for diabetes. They are active > obese patients who have below their obese exterior > adequate muscle mass. > > The reason for today's obesity epidemic is primarily > lack of physical acitivity. There have been studies > (I have posted them on this forum) which have shown > that the difference between overweight children and > normal weight children is not in their diet but in > their activity. Children who engaged in 45 minutes of > play on a daily basis where normal weight despite > consuming the same diet as obese children who did not > engage in activity. > > I also posted a study done by the Mayo clinic which > indicated that the difference between normal weight > adults and obese adults was their activity and not > their diet. Individuals who were obese were sedentary > on the average 2 hrs a day more than the normal weight > individuals. There is a group of researchers at the > Mayo clinic who have studied the effects of NEAT (Non > Exercise Activity Thermogenesis). They have done a > number of studies, including the one above, showing > the effect of NEAT on health. > > My father's generation (he was born 1919) lived on > pasta, beans and cornmeal as their primary sustenance. > Pasta and beans was their primary protein source. > They also had plenty of fruits and vegetables. They > killed a chicken, as their only source of animal > protein, for Sunday dinner to be shared in a family of > 10. They were not obese despite their high carb diet > and they were not malnourished. > > As a child and in my early adult years obesity was > very rare. There were no health clubs. People > actually used their sidewalks for walking to > destinations. Children were not driven to school or > the playground. > > If you want to reverse the obesity epidemic which is > becoming worldwide take away the TVs, electronic > games, school buses, put sidewalks in the suburbs, get > the kids to play outside. Get the adults off their > butts and get them walking. Have them shovel their > own snow and cut their own lawns instead of hiring a > service. > > Perhaps even re-instituting mass transit, so that > adults will have to walk to the bus stop. I posted a > study which showed that people who live in the city, > and therefore need to take mass transit and walk from > the stations to work, weigh on the average 20 lbs less > than people who live in the suburbs. > > Sometimes I think that we obsess too much about the > macro and micro nutrients and gym exercises and not > enough about every day activity or lack of it. > > Ralph Giarnella MD > Southington Ct USA > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 If diabetics can't die in minutes from insulin shock, we need to get out the shovels and head to the graveyards. Many people have been mistakenly buried alive! Many of your arguments here have fallacy problems, for instance: Things that effect competitive endurance athletes don't necessarily apply to normal people. I never said eating processed carbs caused diabetes. That's a strawman. Your father ate mostly beans and rice and had no malnutrition problems? How do you know that? A big pile of periodic extensive blood test records collected over his entire lifetime? It sounds impossible to me to eat the diet you described and not have malnutrition problems. My grandparents and their families were from that generation. They ate a diet more varied than you describe, yet mostly overcooked. From what I could see, they all had malnourishment problems, evidenced by heart disease, teeth falling out, lack of mental acuity, and so forth, starting as young as in their 50's. It is true that the ones who lived the most active life lasted the longest, but they weren't in very good condition for the last 20 to 30 years. Overall, I would have to agree that lack of physical activity is more damaging to health than overconsumption of grains, but it doesn't mean overconsumption of of grains isn't bad. Wilbanks Wisconsin, USA > > > > > > > > I grew up in the 50's (born 1941). Food was in > > > abundance, but obesity was very rare. All the > > sugary > > > cereals that are on the shelves in the supermarket > > now > > > where also present when I was a kid. My favorite > > was > > > sugar pops. > > > > > > As a kid the favorite stop on the way home was the > > > candy store where we loaded up on coca cola, > > chocolate > > > candy bars etc. The same candy bars that you find > > on > > > the shelves today existed when I was a kid. Baby > > Ruth > > > (named after presidents daughter and not Babe > > Ruth), > > > Three muscateers, Tootsie rolls were the > > favoritea. > > > > > > The difference between when I was a kid an now is > > that > > > even in elementary school I had to walk to school > > and > > > back twice a day. We had to walk home for lunch > > and > > > back to school for the afternoon session. > > > > > > My mother did not drive, most families had only > > one > > > car which was used for long trips and Sunday > > drives, > > > so when I wanted to play ball I had to get on my > > bike > > > and ride to the ball field. > > > > > > My mother walked to the grocery store. Etc. > > > What has brought about obesity is lack of physical > > > activity. > > > > > > There were very few places to workout in those > > days. > > > Most people had enough of a workout in their every > > day > > > job. > > > > > > Yes there is an abundance of food but more > > importantly > > > there is a lack of daily physical activity (NEAT). > > > > > > > > The fat gentry mentioned above not only had an > > > abundance of food but they had the poor to do > > their > > > physical labor. > > > > > > As for flours and grains causing obesity that also > > is > > > somewhat of a myth. There are plenty of > > individuals > > > who consume a high carb diet with plenty of starch > > in > > > the form of pasta, potato, rice, bread etc who > > have > > > 7-10% body fat. > > > > > > Ralph Giarnella MD > > > Southington Ct USA > > > > > > > The first problem with what you are saying is > > temporal. If eating all > > the sugary starchy stuff you describe became popular > > when you were a > > kid, then your generation is part of the stats that > > make up the > > current obesity epidemic. Were adults and > > geriatrics eating like that > > back then? > > Actually my generation ( I am 67 ) is not part of the > stats for obesity. The obesity epidemic is affecting > mostly our present below 40 generation and is even > worse amongst our present teenage generation. > > > > Second, are there really " plenty " of people who chow > > down on processed > > carbs and remain bodybuilding contest thin? Where > > did you get this > > information? I don't doubt that there are a few > > people who can do > > this. > > Take a look at all the runners, cyclists, and rowers. > I have spent the past 20+ years associating myself > with cyclists of all ages as well as runners and > recently with rowers and their diet consists primarily > of high carb 60-70% and the serious cyclists, rowers > and runners - those who train 15-20 hrs a week have no > problem maintaining body fat % of less than 10%. > Whereas I find it curious that the body builders and > weight lifters seemed to be obsessed in trying to find > ways in getting to low % body fat. The only obsession > I find in the endurance athletes I mentioned is how to > eat enough food to maintain their daily energy output. > The cyclists even carry water bottles and hydration > systems on their bikes filled with high carb drinks > just to get them through their training. > > Their existence does not prove anything. > > There is quite > > obviously a spectrum of varying metabolic > > constitutions among humans. > > Some are so intolerant of sugars and flours that we > > call them > > diabetics, and improperly eating these substances > > can actually kill > > them in minutes. > > In my 35+ years of practicing medicine and treating > diabetics I have never seen one die in minutes from > improperly eating sugars and flour. There is no > question that uncontrolled diabetes eventually kills > but not in minutes. > > I agree that once an individual is a diabetic they > need to monitor their diet as well as lose weight and > exercise but it is wrong to think that eating a high > carb diet will cause diabetes. Anyone who makes that > statement obviously does not understand diabetes. > > The problem with diabetics (type II) is primarily > insulin resistance caused for the most part by lack of > physical activity. Because they are relatively > inactive their body is unable to utilize the glucose > they ingest. > > If you take these same diabetics and put them into > an exercise program there is a marked decrease in > insulin resistance and they are better able to handle > glucose. I have had patients reverse their diabetes, > despite being still overweight and is some cases still > obese by having them start exercising and losing some > of their weight. > > It is not the glucose that causes diabetes type II, it > is the insulin resistance. > > Some are rail-thin and can gorge > > on 5000 calories of > > donuts per day without gaining an ounce of fat. > > Most of us are > > somewhere in between. The obesity statistics > > suggest that " average " > > on this spectrum is a lot closer to the diabetic > > than the stick figure. > > > > Wilbanks > > Wisconsin, USA > > I have a number of patients in my practice who are > thin type II diabetics. Their problem is caused by > inadequate muscle mass to support their glucose > intake. Most of my older diabetics (>70) are thin > type II diabetics characterized by lower muscle mass > caused by age related inactivity. > > India has a high incidence of diabetes but not > obesity. In India the typical diabetic is thin (low > muscle mass) but has increased intra abdominal fat. > > I also have quite a few obese patients in my practice > who have no evidence for diabetes. They are active > obese patients who have below their obese exterior > adequate muscle mass. > > The reason for today's obesity epidemic is primarily > lack of physical acitivity. There have been studies > (I have posted them on this forum) which have shown > that the difference between overweight children and > normal weight children is not in their diet but in > their activity. Children who engaged in 45 minutes of > play on a daily basis where normal weight despite > consuming the same diet as obese children who did not > engage in activity. > > I also posted a study done by the Mayo clinic which > indicated that the difference between normal weight > adults and obese adults was their activity and not > their diet. Individuals who were obese were sedentary > on the average 2 hrs a day more than the normal weight > individuals. There is a group of researchers at the > Mayo clinic who have studied the effects of NEAT (Non > Exercise Activity Thermogenesis). They have done a > number of studies, including the one above, showing > the effect of NEAT on health. > > My father's generation (he was born 1919) lived on > pasta, beans and cornmeal as their primary sustenance. > Pasta and beans was their primary protein source. > They also had plenty of fruits and vegetables. They > killed a chicken, as their only source of animal > protein, for Sunday dinner to be shared in a family of > 10. They were not obese despite their high carb diet > and they were not malnourished. > > As a child and in my early adult years obesity was > very rare. There were no health clubs. People > actually used their sidewalks for walking to > destinations. Children were not driven to school or > the playground. > > If you want to reverse the obesity epidemic which is > becoming worldwide take away the TVs, electronic > games, school buses, put sidewalks in the suburbs, get > the kids to play outside. Get the adults off their > butts and get them walking. Have them shovel their > own snow and cut their own lawns instead of hiring a > service. > > Perhaps even re-instituting mass transit, so that > adults will have to walk to the bus stop. I posted a > study which showed that people who live in the city, > and therefore need to take mass transit and walk from > the stations to work, weigh on the average 20 lbs less > than people who live in the suburbs. > > Sometimes I think that we obsess too much about the > macro and micro nutrients and gym exercises and not > enough about every day activity or lack of it. > > Ralph Giarnella MD > Southington Ct USA > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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