Re: Free weights versus machine weights

January 19, 2008

Gordon,

I understand you have a passionate dislike of machines of any kind

in the fitness field.

No problem there. However when you decide to trash any trainer who advocates

any use of a machine as poorly educated/or lazy thats a big problem. Your

attitude borders on arrogance! No doubt you have many years in the field both

training others and yourself but no amount of experience or number of

certifications/degrees/diplomas etc provides you the right to be offensive.

I too have followed some of Alwyn Cosgroves training ideas. He is a terrific

source of information. The question, however, of what to do if you show up at

the gym and all the equipment is gone is rather rediculous if you think

logically. I'm not sure what others think but if that happened to me your bloody

right I'd be on the phone...to the police and the owners! Then I'd put together

the workout for the client.

So you don't get the wrong idea Gordon. I don't advocate the use of machines

in place of free weights. I do believe there is a place for both " tools " if used

correctly. As for machines breaking and needing repair and salesman etc. It

seems to me that free weights get damaged, bent , broken. the have to be

replaced as well. Which means a call to the respective salesman.

Yes there are trainers that are not up to par. Just as there are plumbers,

doctors, lawyers, proffs etc. that don't make the grade (with appologies anyone

in this group from those various professions...I'm a cop so feel free to make

donut jokes).

Sorry to have rambled on here for so long but the point I'm trying to get too

is, this group as I understand it, is to allow the sharing of information so we

can all learn with the goal of improving our own trainnig and that which we do

for others. When we start attacking people in general or personally it realy

detracts from the intent of the group.

Lee Robillard

Mississauga, Ontario

Canada

=============================================

gordon waddell wrote:

Hi all,

since it was my dislike of the machine that caused a lot of this debate, I

have been reading all the subsequent posts. There has not been one validated

argument for machine training in place of free weights in athletics or proper

training. They may have some uses in rehab and bodybuilding (which we all know

is NOT as sport).

Can anyone name any current national or world class coaches/ athletes (that are

NOT being paid huge endorsements) that advocate machine training for athletes,

let alone people wanting to move and function better?? I have found through

personal experience that it is poorly educated or lazy trainers / coaches

(mostly trainers in commercial gyms) that use machine training for you don't

have invest time learning and teaching proper lifting, it takes little program

design knowledge and it allows you to train more people in a day which equals a

bigger paycheck!

I know that it is mentally & physically exhausting designing, preparing and

teaching REAL exercises. I get a great workout all day just lifting dumbbells,

kettlebells, plates etc. for my clients / athletes. How much effort and

knowledge does it take to move a selector pin and say sit here?

It comes down to money as usual - salesmen get big commissions selling machines

with pads and parts that wear out and need to be replaced (more money) and

trainers do not need skill or knowledge to use a machine which allows them to

train more people which again is more money. Many clients are scared of free

weights or told by gym sales people the machines are better - it is up to the

trainer to dispell these myths and give real training but they don't for fear of

losing a paying client. (or they just don't know how to train). I never had to

sell a client a line of BS, I always told the truth and let the quality of the

workout sell its self.

In my previous life as a commercial gym Fitness Director I was forced by the GM

& Owner to hire MANY poorly skilled trainers for: we needed bodies on the floor,

they looked good, they were good at sales or they were a friend of the powers

that be. Every basic knowledge test I gave, the trainers scored poorly on - My

one essay question was describe how to do a barbell squat, the answers were

ridiculous!!

Since the tests scores were so poor I started borrowing a test from Alwyn

Cosgrove; it consists of only 1 oral question: " If I hire you today and you

start tomorrow and you come in at 6:00am and find the gym empty (all the

equipment gone - you have the client & 4 walls) what would you do? " The pathetic

answers ranged from: Call immediately and apologize, offer free sessions, extra

month on the membership, try to rent equipment etc. The only CORRECT answer is:

TRAIN THE CLIENT with bodyweight exercises!! For over 4 years - NO ONE passed

the test!

If you need always need machines to train a person, then you are not a trainer

but a babysitter or " rent-a-friend " for an hour.

Thanks to all the great coaches and trainers who are putting up the great

responses to as the superiority of free weights!

" Machines were created to keep the geeks of the free weights! " - not sure who

said it first but it is brilliant!

Gordon Waddell

NJ, USA

To: Supertraining

From: kshobman@...

Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 07:55:18 -0600

Subject: Re: Free weights versus machine weights

The key consideration is teaching the athlete powerful and coordinated

hip extension, knee extension and plantar flexion. I don't think you

have to teach the entire lift to do so, but a snatch high pull makes a

lot of sense for many athletes that are looking to improve these

movements. Most athletes I know would just as soon learn to clean - they

enjoy the movement and athleticism of the lifts themselves.

I certainly wouldn't advocate nothing, but the olympic lifts. But in a

well-developed program of training for football players (and many other

athletes) they can be a valuable exercise.

Having said that, it certainly isn't the only way. IMO it is one of the

best, but there are many roads that lead to excellence.

Exarchives@... wrote:

> The suggested use of Olympic Lifting (Sport) for the supplementary

> training of athletes is just plain silly. Teaching the skill of hurling a

> barbell upward for football players is akin to teaching your swimmers

> blocking

> and tackling. If the swim coach was ever seen " coaching " his or her

> swimmers to

> do so, you could be sure the coach would be carted away by the men in

> white

> coats.

>

January 19, 2008

Hello Gordon.

I'm in agreement with all but your closing quote...<grin>.

The " geeks " as you term them use the free weights. This list boasts a

conspicuous presence of " muscle geeks " world wide....highly literate, highly

intelligent, this " muscle geek " tends to make the most of lifting and uses the

brain to help it succeed in the endeavor.

Per Ferrum, Ad Astra.

With humor but honoring the great Muscle Geek who brought us here...Mel....with

his advanced degrees and his advanced degree of Lifting....

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter and yes, Bachelors, Major:

Physics

Denver, Colorado, USA

--------- Re: Free weights versus machine weights

The key consideration is teaching the athlete powerful and coordinated

hip extension, knee extension and plantar flexion. I don't think you

have to teach the entire lift to do so, but a snatch high pull makes a

lot of sense for many athletes that are looking to improve these

movements. Most athletes I know would just as soon learn to clean - they

enjoy the movement and athleticism of the lifts themselves.

I certainly wouldn't advocate nothing, but the olympic lifts. But in a

well-developed program of training for football players (and many other

athletes) they can be a valuable exercise.

Having said that, it certainly isn't the only way. IMO it is one of the

best, but there are many roads that lead to excellence.

Exarchives@... wrote:

> The suggested use of Olympic Lifting (Sport) for the supplementary

> training of athletes is just plain silly. Teaching the skill of hurling a

> barbell upward for football players is akin to teaching your swimmers

> blocking

> and tackling. If the swim coach was ever seen " coaching " his or her

> swimmers to

> do so, you could be sure the coach would be carted away by the men in

> white

> coats.

>

January 19, 2008

Hmm. What's more, we do actually change the line of the bench press by several

degrees. The arching bench of a powerlifter actually does make the flat bench

into a decline angle lift <grin> Thus shortening the lockout path.

No machine accurately mimics the true best and shortest path for a bench press -

nor the J hook a good many lifters effectively use to lock out.

Mr. Landau, it is at this point I would ask you to provide us with the make,

model, and descriptions of these alleged perfect fiting machines for all

lifters, from short to tall.

The individual variance in bar path is something you find out from just watching

people and observing. It is very difficult to set a machine properly that is in

EVERYONE " s wheelhouse....watching people struggle with even the better Hammer

Strength <trademark brand> machines tells the tale. Errors in seat height

placement on their chest variations leads to bad form, straining, and basically

a bad experience.

The machine fails to accommodate best " wheelhouse " for athletes of varying

sizes. The forced arc on even the Hammer Strength is not proper to my bench

motion for one example. When benching, you do your best to take the SHORTEST

path to lockout. Hammer Strength, being the best of machines from my experience

in this, forces me to elongate my path AND make it more circuitous than it is in

my own bench! I'm not a J hooker. I'm a straight path from low sternal

position.

the Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

==========================================

-------------- Original message --------------

" but try bench pressing at an angle 10 degrees either way from the norm and

see what happens. "

Change the angle of the bench? Yes but the machine does not replicate the

line of the bench which starts just above your sternum and ends above your

mouth. The bench does not go in a straight line.

To equip a gym you need a bench, squat stand and a bar and discs. Machines

needed, many. Cost that one. My cell phone is a useful device, since the

advent of industrialised machines the list of redundant machines would be

long, just because a machine exists doesn't mean it is useful.

Regards

Nick Tatalias

Johennesburg

South Africa

>

> It is not necessarily the tool, but it is said the use of a tool.

> According

> to many here a barbell/dumbbell is a far superior tool than a machine. The

>

> fixed plain argument is always a favorite here, but try bench pressing at

> an

> angle 10 degrees either way from the norm and see what happens. Seems many

> in

> this group carry a certain bias against machines. If I took a few of your

> personal machines away from you, you would find life a little difficult -

> say for

> example your computer and your cell phone and replace them with an antique

>

> crank phone and a typewriter. Many machine designs are questionable, but

> the

> far most important factor is their USE as well as with " free weights. "

> The suggested use of Olympic Lifting (Sport) for the supplementary

> training of athletes is just plain silly. Teaching the skill of hurling a

> barbell upward for football players is akin to teaching your swimmers

> blocking

> and tackling. If the swim coach was ever seen " coaching " his or her

> swimmers to

> do so, you could be sure the coach would be carted away by the men in

> white

> coats.

>

> Landau,

> Aventura, Florida

January 20, 2008

Hi :

I actually like your " muscle geeks " - I hope I become one!

I actually left a word in the quote out (but I am sure most everyone got the

jist of it) It should have read " Machines were created to keep the geeks OFF of

the free weights "

Unfortunately I think / speak faster than I type, so I miss a word or two every

now & then.

Thanks for your support!

Gordon Waddell

NJ, USA

======================================

To: Supertraining

From: deadliftdiva@...

Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:54:34 +0000

Subject: Re: Free weights versus machine weights

Hello Gordon.

I'm in agreement with all but your closing quote...<grin>.

The " geeks " as you term them use the free weights. This list boasts a

conspicuous presence of " muscle geeks " world wide....highly literate, highly

intelligent, this " muscle geek " tends to make the most of lifting and uses the

brain to help it succeed in the endeavor.

Per Ferrum, Ad Astra.

With humor but honoring the great Muscle Geek who brought us here...Mel....with

his advanced degrees and his advanced degree of Lifting....

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter and yes, Bachelors, Major:

Physics

Denver, Colorado, USA

=================================

January 20, 2008

Hi :

I actually like your " muscle geeks " - I hope I become one!

I actually left a word in the quote out (but I am sure most everyone got the

jist of it) It should have read " Machines were created to keep the geeks OFF of

the free weights "

Unfortunately I think / speak faster than I type, so I miss a word or two every

now & then.

Thanks for your support!

Gordon Waddell

NJ, USA

======================================

To: Supertraining

From: deadliftdiva@...

Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:54:34 +0000

Subject: Re: Free weights versus machine weights

Hello Gordon.

I'm in agreement with all but your closing quote...<grin>.

The " geeks " as you term them use the free weights. This list boasts a

conspicuous presence of " muscle geeks " world wide....highly literate, highly

intelligent, this " muscle geek " tends to make the most of lifting and uses the

brain to help it succeed in the endeavor.

Per Ferrum, Ad Astra.

With humor but honoring the great Muscle Geek who brought us here...Mel....with

his advanced degrees and his advanced degree of Lifting....

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter and yes, Bachelors, Major:

Physics

Denver, Colorado, USA

=================================

January 20, 2008

In a message dated 1/19/2008 11:47:24 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

g_k_waddell@... writes:

I have found through personal experience that it is poorly educated or lazy

trainers / coaches (mostly trainers in commercial gyms) that use machine

training for you don't have invest time learning and teaching proper lifting,

it

takes little program design knowledge and it allows you to train more people

in a day which equals a bigger paycheck!

******

I guess I must be one of those poorly educated trainers (I have my own

facility - mostly machines). You'll have to stand in a long line behind those

that

truly believe I am poorly educated. I will admit to being LAZY, but I don't

need to " teach " unnecessary skills. " If you need always need machines

to train a person, then you are not a trainer but a babysitter or

" rent-a-friend " for an hour. "

I personally see that as being a mainstream thing, as I have seen that

behavior in commercial and private settings, but this is never something

involved

with my personal " machine training. " Anyone who charges by the " hour " allows

for any low grade modality to rear its ugly head. My training rarely is over

30 minutes.

" Hang off a building for as long as you possibly can, and just when you're

about to fall off, try to pull yourself up. And when you're halfway there,

have someone grab your legs and pull while another person step on your hands.

And keep on trying to get to the top of the building. It hurts like that. You

know you've had a really terrific workout if you want to throw up. It's that

bad. But it also works, if you want the pain and can focus and stay with it. "

That is an actual written client quote - not so sure I'm a babysitter or

" rent a friend. "

Landau,

Aventura, Florida

January 20, 2008

In a message dated 1/19/2008 11:47:24 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

g_k_waddell@... writes:

I have found through personal experience that it is poorly educated or lazy

trainers / coaches (mostly trainers in commercial gyms) that use machine

training for you don't have invest time learning and teaching proper lifting,

it

takes little program design knowledge and it allows you to train more people

in a day which equals a bigger paycheck!

******

I guess I must be one of those poorly educated trainers (I have my own

facility - mostly machines). You'll have to stand in a long line behind those

that

truly believe I am poorly educated. I will admit to being LAZY, but I don't

need to " teach " unnecessary skills. " If you need always need machines

to train a person, then you are not a trainer but a babysitter or

" rent-a-friend " for an hour. "

I personally see that as being a mainstream thing, as I have seen that

behavior in commercial and private settings, but this is never something

involved

with my personal " machine training. " Anyone who charges by the " hour " allows

for any low grade modality to rear its ugly head. My training rarely is over

30 minutes.

" Hang off a building for as long as you possibly can, and just when you're

about to fall off, try to pull yourself up. And when you're halfway there,

have someone grab your legs and pull while another person step on your hands.

And keep on trying to get to the top of the building. It hurts like that. You

know you've had a really terrific workout if you want to throw up. It's that

bad. But it also works, if you want the pain and can focus and stay with it. "

That is an actual written client quote - not so sure I'm a babysitter or

" rent a friend. "

Landau,

Aventura, Florida

January 20, 2008

Lee,

Please do not confuse PASSION with arrogance. Arrogance is when someone is

headstrong and not willing to learn or accept change; and that is NOT me. I love

to learn and that is why I asked for any peer reviewed studies or names of world

class athletes / coaches who prefer machine training. If they were provided and

sound I would have to change my thinking.

I am extremely PASSIONATE about what I do and I just want everyone in the field

to be as committed as I am. (I know that will never happen). As always, I am

stating my opinions about the quality of training I see in commercial gyms. I

base this opinion on experience and trying to follow the coaches / trainers/

therapists I look to as mentors and leader’s in the industry (it just so happens

they don’t train on machines- I don’t think this is a coincidence).

From the majority of the feedback I have read, most people are in agreement with

me. I guess I never considered that there would be poorly educated / skilled

trainers / coaches on this site. The level of the information is so great, I

just assumed that everyone was above the basic gym floor trainer in knowledge

and skills.

I am not arrogant but I do hold to my opinions for I rarely see good program

design and exercise instruction in commercial gyms. I want to elevate our

industry but that will never happen as long as clubs promote bad training on

useless equipment just to make a profit! I want all clubs to require highly

skilled trainers with college degrees & high level certifications – not some

online multiple choice exam!!!

I think the majority of the folks here will agree with me for they are just as

devoted or more so than I am and we all want to see our industry gain the

respect it deserves.

I used the test from Alwyn Cosgrove just to prove a point about the low level of

knowledge and skill I was forced to deal with on a daily basis (of course I

would call the police). The worst part is the GM and owner would not allow me to

even teach the trainers good info for it may take them away from their time to

sell training to people.

The only way we will ever change the industry is to start from within and not

use junk equipment and poor training just because it is easy or time efficient.

Gordon Waddell

NJ, USA

=========================

To: Supertraining@...: trelee3@...: Sat, 19 Jan 2008

21:36:52 -0500Subject: Re: Free weights versus machine weights

Gordon,I understand you have a passionate dislike of machines of any kind in the

fitness field.No problem there. However when you decide to trash any trainer who

advocates any use of a machine as poorly educated/or lazy thats a big problem.

Your attitude borders on arrogance! No doubt you have many years in the field

both training others and yourself but no amount of experience or number of

certifications/degrees/diplomas etc provides you the right to be offensive.I too

have followed some of Alwyn Cosgroves training ideas. He is a terrific source of

information. The question, however, of what to do if you show up at the gym and

all the equipment is gone is rather rediculous if you think logically. I'm not

sure what others think but if that happened to me your bloody right I'd be on

the phone...to the police and the owners! Then I'd put together the workout for

the client.So you don't get the wrong idea Gordon. I don't advocate the use of

machines in place of free weights. I do believe there is a place for both

" tools " if used correctly. As for machines breaking and needing repair and

salesman etc. It seems to me that free weights get damaged, bent , broken. the

have to be replaced as well. Which means a call to the respective salesman.Yes

there are trainers that are not up to par. Just as there are plumbers, doctors,

lawyers, proffs etc. that don't make the grade (with appologies anyone in this

group from those various professions...I'm a cop so feel free to make donut

jokes).Sorry to have rambled on here for so long but the point I'm trying to get

too is, this group as I understand it, is to allow the sharing of information so

we can all learn with the goal of improving our own trainnig and that which we

do for others. When we start attacking people in general or personally it realy

detracts from the intent of the group.Lee RobillardMississauga,

OntarioCanada=============================================gordon waddell

wrote:Hi all,since it was my dislike of the

machine that caused a lot of this debate, I have been reading all the subsequent

posts. There has not been one validated argument for machine training in place

of free weights in athletics or proper training. They may have some uses in

rehab and bodybuilding (which we all know is NOT as sport).Can anyone name any

current national or world class coaches/ athletes (that are NOT being paid huge

endorsements) that advocate machine training for athletes, let alone people

wanting to move and function better?? I have found through personal experience

that it is poorly educated or lazy trainers / coaches (mostly trainers in

commercial gyms) that use machine training for you don't have invest time

learning and teaching proper lifting, it takes little program design knowledge

and it allows you to train more people in a day which equals a bigger paycheck!I

know that it is mentally & physically exhausting designing, preparing and

teaching REAL exercises. I get a great workout all day just lifting dumbbells,

kettlebells, plates etc. for my clients / athletes. How much effort and

knowledge does it take to move a selector pin and say sit here?It comes down to

money as usual - salesmen get big commissions selling machines with pads and

parts that wear out and need to be replaced (more money) and trainers do not

need skill or knowledge to use a machine which allows them to train more people

which again is more money. Many clients are scared of free weights or told by

gym sales people the machines are better - it is up to the trainer to dispell

these myths and give real training but they don't for fear of losing a paying

client. (or they just don't know how to train). I never had to sell a client a

line of BS, I always told the truth and let the quality of the workout sell its

self.In my previous life as a commercial gym Fitness Director I was forced by

the GM & Owner to hire MANY poorly skilled trainers for: we needed bodies on the

floor, they looked good, they were good at sales or they were a friend of the

powers that be. Every basic knowledge test I gave, the trainers scored poorly on

- My one essay question was describe how to do a barbell squat, the answers were

ridiculous!!Since the tests scores were so poor I started borrowing a test from

Alwyn Cosgrove; it consists of only 1 oral question: " If I hire you today and

you start tomorrow and you come in at 6:00am and find the gym empty (all the

equipment gone - you have the client & 4 walls) what would you do? " The pathetic

answers ranged from: Call immediately and apologize, offer free sessions, extra

month on the membership, try to rent equipment etc. The only CORRECT answer is:

TRAIN THE CLIENT with bodyweight exercises!! For over 4 years - NO ONE passed

the test!If you need always need machines to train a person, then you are not a

trainer but a babysitter or " rent-a-friend " for an hour.Thanks to all the great

coaches and trainers who are putting up the great responses to as the

superiority of free weights! " Machines were created to keep the geeks of the free

weights! " - not sure who said it first but it is brilliant!Gordon WaddellNJ,

USATo: Supertraining@...: kshobman@...: Sat, 19 Jan

2008 07:55:18 -0600Subject: Re: Free weights versus machine

weightsThe key consideration is teaching the athlete powerful and coordinated

hip extension, knee extension and plantar flexion. I don't think you have to

teach the entire lift to do so, but a snatch high pull makes a lot of sense for

many athletes that are looking to improve these movements. Most athletes I know

would just as soon learn to clean - they enjoy the movement and athleticism of

the lifts themselves.I certainly wouldn't advocate nothing, but the olympic

lifts. But in a well-developed program of training for football players (and

many other athletes) they can be a valuable exercise.Having said that, it

certainly isn't the only way. IMO it is one of the best, but there are many

roads that lead to excellence.Exarchives@... wrote:> The suggested use of

Olympic Lifting (Sport) for the supplementary> training of athletes is just

plain silly. Teaching the skill of hurling a> barbell upward for football

players is akin to teaching your swimmers > blocking> and tackling. If the swim

coach was ever seen " coaching " his or her > swimmers to> do so, you could be

sure the coach would be carted away by the men in > white> coats.>>> [Non-text

portions of this message have been removed]

========================

January 21, 2008

Gordon,

I am not confusing the two. I believe I said that you obviously are very

passinate about your beliefs in training and I meant that. I don't think that

you, personally, are an arrogant person (although we've never met). I appologize

if that was the message you got . However, in your post you seemed to paint

any trainers in commercial gyms as lazy/poorly trained for using machines with

their clients. It BORDERS on arrogance when you basically right off an entire

group of people because they don't share your ideas. I have dealt with many very

good trainiers who are just as passionate about their chosen field as you and

work in commercial gyms. Depending on their clients needs many of them will

incorperate machines and free weights in program design. Does that make them

lazy or poorly trained? Not necessarily. Of course there are gyms and trainers

intersted only in padding their wallet. That happens everywhere. But there are

many very good people in both areas who have

different ideas about training. that dosen't make them less qualified.

Let me clarify my position. I am not employed by a commercial gym. The

involvement I have in the fitness industry is through my work as a tactical

officer. I co-ordinate the physical testing and training for my unit. My

certifications did not come from the web. I actually did and do attend classes

and workshops to broaden my knowledge base. I don't get paid extra for this I do

it because it is what has interested me for upwards of 30 years.

Are free weights better for athletes and those who are more than novices.

Very likely. Does that mean I would instruct someone to never use any machine?

No. Heck I'm very much a proponent of bodyweight exercises. Lord knows when I

run the guys in my unit through a training day of only body weight exercises the

majority of them are amazed at the workout they get... and reminded of it for a

couple days when DOMs sets in. These are guys who are not your average donut

scarfing cops but highly motivated Type A personalities who have a pretty good

background in training.

I think you would find there are quite a few people on this group who may not

contribute much to the discussions but are here to draw as much as they can from

the posts to enable them to enhance their abilities as trainers or, as happens

with me frequently, point them in the direction to research topics broached

here. Some of these silent group members be are likely trainers at commercial

gyms, and while they may not speak up, they might be somewhat offended by the

stereotyping of them.

I don't think your intent was to insult anyone. Sometimes passion clouds our

ability to make a point without considering the words we use to convey it. God

knows I've been guilty of that.

At any rate, as you can see I've rambled on here for a while. I guess its my

passion too.

Lee Robillard

Mississauga, Ontario

Canada.

===================================