Rotational training and Specificity

[Guest guest]

I throw the discus in masters competitions, so I am concerned about developing

rotational strength and transferring strength from the weight room to the

playing field. Some of the issues that determine success are not obvious.

1. Spinal health and injury: In sports like discus, javelin, tennis, golf, and

cricket , excessive use of the spine will cause back injury. I try to use my

legs and hips as much as possible when throwing the discus to minimize torque in

the spine. You have to do the same thing when playing rotational sports and

doing rotational exercises. I have discussed this matter with Stuart McGill

(back biomechanists from Canada) and he feels that moving the spine as a unit

during these movements is critical to spinal health and rotational performance.

It is easy to hurt your spine. Coaches should emphasize good spinal mechanics

when young children first learn sports. Remember, you will be old a lot longer

than you will be young. Sport is something you can do for a lifetime— if you

stay healthy.

2. Specificity: It makes sense that rotational exercises transfer to rotational

movements. However, this might not be the case. I received my motor learning

training from lin Henry at UC Berkeley. He developed the concept of

specificity back in the 1950s. His extensive work on this topic showed that

movements are extremely task specific. Motor control changed by merely changing

the speed of movement. It is possible that strength developed during sledge

hammer training or rotational medicine ball exercises do not transfer to golf or

discus any better than squats, cleans, or snatches. Force generating capacity in

lifts like bench press and dead lift are moderately correlated to powerful

movements, such as vertical jump, seated medicine ball throw, and discus (at

least in elite throwers) (r = 0.7 approx). 

The athlete's goal in performing these motions (i.e., discus, golf, baseball) is

to develop centripetal force to maintain angular motion. On the one hand, this

could involve doing rotational exercises that develop the muscles' capacity in a

manner similar to the way they are used in the sport. Another way would be to

make the muscles used in the movement as strong as possible. Specific skill

training combined with stronger muscles would result in more powerful sports

movements. Most likely, a combination of rational strength methods and

traditional strength training will prove best.

3. Transfer of strength and power. Even after thousands of studies on strength

and motor performance, we do not know the optimal way to build strength for

power movements. The lively discussions on HIT vs power strength techniques and

on single vs multiple sets in this group reinforces this. 

One reason for the confusion is genetics. The Heritage Family studies (that

included more than 250 published papers) clearly showed that there are

responders and non-responders to exercise. A program that works for one person

will not work for another. Increasing squat or bench press strength in one

athlete will trigger a 20 foot improvement in one athlete but have little effect

in another. Genetics determine ultimate strength and power, the rate of change

in strength and power, and the capacity to transfer strength developed in the

weight room to the playing field. If you have gene polymorphisms (gene variants)

that make you a non-responder, it won't matter if you do O lifts, HIT, one set,

or five sets— you aren't going to win!

Specificity is another problem. Changing strength adds intravariance to motor

performance— you get stronger, which interferes with motor control. We see

this during adolescents when rapid changes in growth make young people perform

like ugly ducklings until they get used to their new bodies. Strength is the

basis of power but it must be integrated with motor performance. In the short

run (i.e. 3 months), increases in strength do not automatically result in

improvements in motor performance.

I have been throwing the discus on and off since 1963 and have been reasonably

successful (at least as an old guy). I've learned several very important

lessons:

1. Strength and power are critical in power sports but should never substitute

for good technique. In the discus, athletes like , Ludvik Danek, and

Jay Sylvester were not the strongest athletes but they threw very far because of

their superior techniques.

2. You must be healthy and injury free on the day of competition. Playing hurt

is a training error. In 2003, I won the master's world championships because my

two biggest competitors were hurt. In Italy in September, the athlete who should

have won the world championship stayed in Germany because of a leg injury. A guy

I used to train with in the 80s was a 70 meter discus thrower and made the US

Pan American team. He didn't go because of a back injury. He insisted on doing

power cleans, even though it hurt his back. He forgot that he was a discus

thrower and not an Olympic lifter.

3. There are many ways to build strength. You can get strong doing power lifts,

Olympic lifts, or doing functional training with large rocks. I think as long as

you overload the large muscles and then integrate this strength into your sport,

you will be a better athlete.

4. Be systematic in your training. This includes integrating rest and periodized

training into the overall program.

5. Concentrate on factors that account for the majority of the variance of

performance. Don't worry about taking zinc or amino acid supplements if your

basic technique sucks. Take a look at your sport and identify the main factors

that determine success. Work on those. As you become more proficient, then you

can sweat the small stuff. 

Fahey

Dept Kinesiology

Track and Field Team

California State University, Chico

Chico, CA 95929-0330

discusdoc@...

[Guest guest]

Excellent, excellent post. Very good points and not suprising with Tom's

background. I'm a little awed as I would put Henry and Bernstein as the

two most influential people in terms of motor skills for sport.

Recently our esteemed moderator sent me to a website showing pictures of

the Chinese weightlifting community. I was a little awed by the site of

a 180 lb lifter doing overhead squats from a deep, dead start with in

excess of 500 lbs. I'm sure this site has been posted, but in case some

members missed it:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dehwang

Incredibly insightful images of weightlifting. This is a sport many

think of as strength, but the world champion coaches of China echo the

words of Tom.

The succint caption on one of the pictures, " According to Chinese

coaches, the four keys to the snatch are: jin (close), kuai (fast), di

(low), and zhun (accurate). "

Anyhow, I'm saving Tom's five points. Thanks very much!

Tom Fahey wrote:

> I throw the discus in masters competitions, so I am concerned about

> developing rotational strength and transferring strength from the

> weight room to the playing field. Some of the issues that determine

> success are not obvious.

>

> 1. Spinal health and injury: In sports like discus, javelin, tennis,

> golf, and cricket , excessive use of the spine will cause back injury.

> I try to use my legs and hips as much as possible when throwing the

> discus to minimize torque in the spine. You have to do the same thing

> when playing rotational sports and doing rotational exercises. I have

> discussed this matter with Stuart McGill (back biomechanists from

> Canada) and he feels that moving the spine as a unit during these

> movements is critical to spinal health and rotational performance. It

> is easy to hurt your spine. Coaches should emphasize good spinal

> mechanics when young children first learn sports. Remember, you will

> be old a lot longer than you will be young. Sport is something you can

> do for a lifetime— if you stay healthy.

>

> 2. Specificity: It makes sense that rotational exercises transfer to

> rotational movements. However, this might not be the case. I received

> my motor learning training from lin Henry at UC Berkeley. He

> developed the concept of specificity back in the 1950s. His extensive

> work on this topic showed that movements are extremely task specific.

> Motor control changed by merely changing the speed of movement. It is

> possible that strength developed during sledge hammer training or

> rotational medicine ball exercises do not transfer to golf or discus

> any better than squats, cleans, or snatches. Force generating capacity

> in lifts like bench press and dead lift are moderately correlated to

> powerful movements, such as vertical jump, seated medicine ball throw,

> and discus (at least in elite throwers) (r = 0.7 approx).

>

> The athlete's goal in performing these motions (i.e., discus, golf,

> baseball) is to develop centripetal force to maintain angular motion.

> On the one hand, this could involve doing rotational exercises that

> develop the muscles' capacity in a manner similar to the way they are

> used in the sport. Another way would be to make the muscles used in

> the movement as strong as possible. Specific skill training combined

> with stronger muscles would result in more powerful sports movements.

> Most likely, a combination of rational strength methods and

> traditional strength training will prove best.

>

> 3. Transfer of strength and power. Even after thousands of studies on

> strength and motor performance, we do not know the optimal way to

> build strength for power movements. The lively discussions on HIT vs

> power strength techniques and on single vs multiple sets in this group

> reinforces this.?

>

> One reason for the confusion is genetics. The Heritage Family studies

> (that included more than 250 published papers) clearly showed that

> there are responders and non-responders to exercise. A program that

> works for one person will not work for another. Increasing squat or

> bench press strength in one athlete will trigger a 20 foot improvement

> in one athlete but have little effect in another. Genetics determine

> ultimate strength and power, the rate of change in strength and power,

> and the capacity to transfer strength developed in the weight room to

> the playing field. If you have gene polymorphisms (gene variants) that

> make you a non-responder, it won't matter if you do O lifts, HIT, one

> set, or five sets— you aren't going to win!

>

> Specificity is another problem. Changing strength adds intravariance

> to motor performance— you get stronger, which interferes with motor

> control. We see this during adolescents when rapid changes in growth

> make young people perform like ugly ducklings until they get used to

> their new bodies. Strength is the basis of power but it must be

> integrated with motor performance. In the short run (i.e. 3 months),

> increases in strength do not automatically result in improvements in

> motor performance.

>

> I have been throwing the discus on and off since 1963 and have been

> reasonably successful (at least as an old guy). I've learned several

> very important lessons:

>

> 1. Strength and power are critical in power sports but should never

> substitute for good technique. In the discus, athletes like

> , Ludvik Danek, and Jay Sylvester were not the strongest

> athletes but they threw very far because of their superior techniques.

>

> 2. You must be healthy and injury free on the day of competition.

> Playing hurt is a training error. In 2003, I won the master's world

> championships because my two biggest competitors were hurt. In Italy

> in September, the athlete who should have won the world championship

> stayed in Germany because of a leg injury. A guy I used to train with

> in the 80s was a 70 meter discus thrower and made the US Pan American

> team. He didn't go because of a back injury. He insisted on doing

> power cleans, even though it hurt his back. He forgot that he was a

> discus thrower and not an Olympic lifter.

>

> 3. There are many ways to build strength. You can get strong doing

> power lifts, Olympic lifts, or doing functional training with large

> rocks. I think as long as you overload the large muscles and then

> integrate this strength into your sport, you will be a better athlete.

>

> 4. Be systematic in your training. This includes integrating rest and

> periodized training into the overall program.

>

> 5. Concentrate on factors that account for the majority of the

> variance of performance. Don't worry about taking zinc or amino acid

> supplements if your basic technique sucks. Take a look at your sport

> and identify the main factors that determine success. Work on those.

> As you become more proficient, then you can sweat the small stuff.

>

> Fahey

> Dept Kinesiology

> Track and Field Team

> California State University, Chico

> Chico, CA 95929-0330

> discusdoc@... <mailto:discusdoc%40aol.com>

>

>

> .

>

>

--

Hobman

Saskatoon, CANADA

[Guest guest]

> http://www.flickr.com/photos/dehwang

>

> Incredibly insightful images of weightlifting. This is a sport many

> think of as strength, but the world champion coaches of China echo the

> words of Tom.

Thanks for posting this site. Got some great training ideas.

_____________________________

Gerald Lafon

Director, Judo America San Diego

Coach, Mira Mesa Weightlifting Club

http://www.judoamerica.com

858 578-7748

[Guest guest]

As far as I'm concerned Professor Fahey has put this baby to bed.

Let's move on to more productive discussions, sans acrimony.

W.G.

Ubermensch Sports Consultancy

San Diego CA.

In Supertraining , Tom Fahey wrote:

>

> I throw the discus in masters competitions, so I am concerned about

developing rotational strength and transferring strength from the

weight room to the playing field. Some of the issues that determine

success are not obvious.

>

> 1. Spinal health and injury: In sports like discus, javelin, tennis,

golf, and cricket , excessive use of the spine will cause back injury.

I try to use my legs and hips as much as possible when throwing the

discus to minimize torque in the spine. You have to do the same thing

when playing rotational sports and doing rotational exercises. I have

discussed this matter with Stuart McGill (back biomechanists from

Canada) and he feels that moving the spine as a unit during these

movements is critical to spinal health and rotational performance. It

is easy to hurt your spine. Coaches should emphasize good spinal

mechanics when young children first learn sports. Remember, you will

be old a lot longer than you will be young. Sport is something you can

do for a lifetime†" if you stay healthy.

>

> 2. Specificity: It makes sense that rotational exercises transfer to

rotational movements. However, this might not be the case. I received

my motor learning training from lin Henry at UC Berkeley. He

developed the concept of specificity back in the 1950s. His extensive

work on this topic showed that movements are extremely task specific.

Motor control changed by merely changing the speed of movement. It is

possible that strength developed during sledge hammer training or

rotational medicine ball exercises do not transfer to golf or discus

any better than squats, cleans, or snatches. Force generating capacity

in lifts like bench press and dead lift are moderately correlated to

powerful movements, such as vertical jump, seated medicine ball throw,

and discus (at least in elite throwers) (r = 0.7 approx).Â

>

> The athlete's goal in performing these motions (i.e., discus, golf,

baseball) is to develop centripetal force to maintain angular motion.

On the one hand, this could involve doing rotational exercises that

develop the muscles' capacity in a manner similar to the way they are

used in the sport. Another way would be to make the muscles used in

the movement as strong as possible. Specific skill training combined

with stronger muscles would result in more powerful sports movements.

Most likely, a combination of rational strength methods and

traditional strength training will prove best.

>

> 3. Transfer of strength and power. Even after thousands of studies

on strength and motor performance, we do not know the optimal way to

build strength for power movements. The lively discussions on HIT vs

power strength techniques and on single vs multiple sets in this group

reinforces this.

>

> One reason for the confusion is genetics. The Heritage Family

studies (that included more than 250 published papers) clearly showed

that there are responders and non-responders to exercise. A program

that works for one person will not work for another. Increasing squat

or bench press strength in one athlete will trigger a 20 foot

improvement in one athlete but have little effect in another. Genetics

determine ultimate strength and power, the rate of change in strength

and power, and the capacity to transfer strength developed in the

weight room to the playing field. If you have gene polymorphisms (gene

variants) that make you a non-responder, it won't matter if you do O

lifts, HIT, one set, or five sets†" you aren't going to win!

>

> Specificity is another problem. Changing strength adds intravariance

to motor performance†" you get stronger, which interferes with motor

control. We see this during adolescents when rapid changes in growth

make young people perform like ugly ducklings until they get used to

their new bodies. Strength is the basis of power but it must be

integrated with motor performance. In the short run (i.e. 3 months),

increases in strength do not automatically result in improvements in

motor performance.

>

> I have been throwing the discus on and off since 1963 and have been

reasonably successful (at least as an old guy). I've learned several

very important lessons:

>

> 1. Strength and power are critical in power sports but should never

substitute for good technique. In the discus, athletes like

, Ludvik Danek, and Jay Sylvester were not the strongest

athletes but they threw very far because of their superior techniques.

>

> 2. You must be healthy and injury free on the day of competition.

Playing hurt is a training error. In 2003, I won the master's world

championships because my two biggest competitors were hurt. In Italy

in September, the athlete who should have won the world championship

stayed in Germany because of a leg injury. A guy I used to train with

in the 80s was a 70 meter discus thrower and made the US Pan American

team. He didn't go because of a back injury. He insisted on doing

power cleans, even though it hurt his back. He forgot that he was a

discus thrower and not an Olympic lifter.

>

> 3. There are many ways to build strength. You can get strong doing

power lifts, Olympic lifts, or doing functional training with large

rocks. I think as long as you overload the large muscles and then

integrate this strength into your sport, you will be a better athlete.

>

> 4. Be systematic in your training. This includes integrating rest

and periodized training into the overall program.

>

> 5. Concentrate on factors that account for the majority of the

variance of performance. Don't worry about taking zinc or amino acid

supplements if your basic technique sucks. Take a look at your sport

and identify the main factors that determine success. Work on those.

As you become more proficient, then you can sweat the small stuff.Â

>

>

> Fahey

> Dept Kinesiology

> Track and Field Team

> California State University, Chico

> Chico, CA 95929-0330

> discusdoc@...

>

[Guest guest]

Obviously, there is some spinal movement during rotational movements that are

critical to summation of forces. My point was that too many athletes rely

excessively on spinal rotation and not enough on generating force from the legs

and hips. I see athletes do this every day in the throwing events: their legs

are often immobile while they twist vigorously with the spine and end up

throwing (discus, javelin, and shot) with their arms. You see this in pitchers

and even batters, too.

A good example of proper leg and hip movement is the pitching technique of the

great Dodger pitcher Sandy Kolfax (see Youtube videos). Kolfax began his career

with arm problems, yet was known for his fastball. Watch the way he used his

hips and legs and minimized the use of his arm. The small muscles of the arm and

spine have limited capacities to generate force, while the hip and thigh muscles

are the strongest in the body.

Many injuries to peripheral joints (i.e., ACL and rotator cuff) no doubt stem

from over stress caused by inadequate use of the hips and legs during explosive

movements. Go to any golf driving range or public tennis court and watch the

average person play and you'll see what I mean.

Age takes its toll! Watch films of great golfers such as Byron or Arnold

Palmer when they were young and when they were old. They progressively used less

leg and hip drive as they aged. Perhaps they should have used more leg drive and

used less effort in the swing.

In my old guy discus training, I have resorted to using compression pants and a

weight lifting belt to help support my back and hips when generating the

tremendous torque it takes to throw far. It's actually easier on my back to

throw a 2 kg discus than a 1 kg discus. I am able to crank my legs and hips hard

and fast with the lighter discus and throw very far (55 to 64 meters). I am no

longer strong enough to throw the 2 kg discus far on strength alone, so I use

more pendulation and fluid foot movements to get distance without overstressing

my body.

Tom Fahey

Dept Kinesiology

California State University, Chico

=============================

Rotational training and Specificity

I throw the discus in masters competitions, so I am concerned about

developing rotational strength and transferring strength from the weight

room to the playing field. Some of the issues that determine success are not

obvious.

1. Spinal health and injury: In sports like discus, javelin, tennis, golf,

and cricket , excessive use of the spine will cause back injury. I try to

use my legs and hips as much as possible when throwing the discus to

minimize torque in the spine. You have to do the same thing when playing

rotational sports and doing rotational exercises. I have discussed this

matter with Stuart McGill (back biomechanists from Canada) and he feels that

moving the spine as a unit during these movements is critical to spinal

health and rotational performance. It is easy to hurt your spine. Coaches

should emphasize good spinal mechanics when young children first learn

sports. Remember, you will be old a lot longer than you will be young. Sport

is something you can do for a lifetime- if you stay healthy.

2. Specificity: It makes sense that rotational exercises transfer to

rotational movements. However, this might not be the case. I received my

motor learning training from lin Henry at UC Berkeley. He developed the

concept of specificity back in the 1950s. His extensive work on this topic

showed that movements are extremely task specific. Motor control changed by

merely changing the speed of movement. It is possible that strength

developed during sledge hammer training or rotational medicine ball

exercises do not transfer to golf or discus any better than squats, cleans,

or snatches. Force generating capacity in lifts like bench press and dead

lift are moderately correlated to powerful movements, such as vertical jump,

seated medicine ball throw, and discus (at least in elite throwers) (r = 0.7

approx).

The athlete's goal in performing these motions (i.e., discus, golf,

baseball) is to develop centripetal force to maintain angular motion. On the

one hand, this could involve doing rotational exercises that develop the

muscles' capacity in a manner similar to the way they are used in the sport.

Another way would be to make the muscles used in the movement as strong as

possible. Specific skill training combined with stronger muscles would

result in more powerful sports movements. Most likely, a combination of

rational strength methods and traditional strength training will prove best.

3. Transfer of strength and power. Even after thousands of studies on

strength and motor performance, we do not know the optimal way to build

strength for power movements. The lively discussions on HIT vs power

strength techniques and on single vs multiple sets in this group reinforces

this.

One reason for the confusion is genetics. The Heritage Family studies (that

included more than 250 published papers) clearly showed that there are

responders and non-responders to exercise. A program that works for one

person will not work for another. Increasing squat or bench press strength

in one athlete will trigger a 20 foot improvement in one athlete but have

little effect in another. Genetics determine ultimate strength and power,

the rate of change in strength and power, and the capacity to transfer

strength developed in the weight room to the playing field. If you have gene

polymorphisms (gene variants) that make you a non-responder, it won't matter

if you do O lifts, HIT, one set, or five sets- you aren't going to win!

Specificity is another problem. Changing strength adds intravariance to

motor performance- you get stronger, which interferes with motor control. We

see this during adolescents when rapid changes in growth make young people

perform like ugly ducklings until they get used to their new bodies.

Strength is the basis of power but it must be integrated with motor

performance. In the short run (i.e. 3 months), increases in strength do not

automatically result in improvements in motor performance.

I have been throwing the discus on and off since 1963 and have been

reasonably successful (at least as an old guy). I've learned several very

important lessons:

1. Strength and power are critical in power sports but should never

substitute for good technique. In the discus, athletes like ,

Ludvik Danek, and Jay Sylvester were not the strongest athletes but they

threw very far because of their superior techniques.

2. You must be healthy and injury free on the day of competition. Playing

hurt is a training error. In 2003, I won the master's world championships

because my two biggest competitors were hurt. In Italy in September, the

athlete who should have won the world championship stayed in Germany because

of a leg injury. A guy I used to train with in the 80s was a 70 meter discus

thrower and made the US Pan American team. He didn't go because of a back

injury. He insisted on doing power cleans, even though it hurt his back. He

forgot that he was a discus thrower and not an Olympic lifter.

3. There are many ways to build strength. You can get strong doing power

lifts, Olympic lifts, or doing functional training with large rocks. I think

as long as you overload the large muscles and then integrate this strength

into your sport, you will be a better athlete.

4. Be systematic in your training. This includes integrating rest and

periodized training into the overall program.

5. Concentrate on factors that account for the majority of the variance of

performance. Don't worry about taking zinc or amino acid supplements if your

basic technique sucks. Take a look at your sport and identify the main

factors that determine success. Work on those. As you become more

proficient, then you can sweat the small stuff.

====================================

[Guest guest]

Todd,

While the spine certainly transmits force from the lower to upper body, it has

limited force generating capacity. The spinal muscles are mainly slow twitch

postural muscles, while the hip and thigh muscles are large, powerful, and fast

.. During rotational movements, such as the discus throw, golf swing and batting

swing, one of the principle goals is to initiate the stretch-shortening cycle

across the abdominal muscles (i.e., the " core " ). This is what creates big

distances in the throws and powerful movements in golf, tennis, soccer, etc.

However, it doesn't happen without effective use of the legs and hips. Summation

of force resulting in powerful upper body movements must begin in the lower

body. Trying to create these motions in the upper body alone results in poor

performance and injury.

During my long athletic career, I think I have injured most of the major joints

of my body. Most of my problems stemmed from relying on raw strength and speed

rather than good biomechanics. As an old athlete, I actually have fewer injuries

than when I was young because I have attempted to create more force with less

effort. Good technique doesn't hurt!

Tom Fahey

Dept. Kinesiology

Cal State University, Chico

Chico, CA 95929-0330 USA

discusdoc@...

Re: Rotational training and Specificity

Obviously, there is some spinal movement during rotational movements that

are critical to summation of forces. My point was that too many athletes

rely excessively on spinal rotation and not enough on generating force from

the legs and hips. I see athletes do this every day in the throwing events:

their legs are often immobile while they twist vigorously with the spine and

end up throwing (discus, javelin, and shot) with their arms. You see this in

pitchers and even batters, too.

A good example of proper leg and hip movement is the pitching technique of

the great Dodger pitcher Sandy Kolfax (see Youtube videos). Kolfax began his

career with arm problems, yet was known for his fastball. Watch the way he

used his hips and legs and minimized the use of his arm. The small muscles

of the arm and spine have limited capacities to generate force, while the

hip and thigh muscles are the strongest in the body.

Many injuries to peripheral joints (i.e., ACL and rotator cuff) no doubt

stem from over stress caused by inadequate use of the hips and legs during

explosive movements. Go to any golf driving range or public tennis court and

watch the average person play and you'll see what I mean.

Age takes its toll! Watch films of great golfers such as Byron or

Arnold Palmer when they were young and when they were old. They

progressively used less leg and hip drive as they aged. Perhaps they should

have used more leg drive and used less effort in the swing.

In my old guy discus training, I have resorted to using compression pants

and a weight lifting belt to help support my back and hips when generating

the tremendous torque it takes to throw far. It's actually easier on my back

to throw a 2 kg discus than a 1 kg discus. I am able to crank my legs and

hips hard and fast with the lighter discus and throw very far (55 to 64

meters). I am no longer strong enough to throw the 2 kg discus far on

strength alone, so I use more pendulation and fluid foot movements to get

distance without overstressing my body.

Tom Fahey

Dept Kinesiology

California State University, Chico

=============================