RE: Machine for Olympic type exercises?

[Guest guest]

Tony

The movement of the bar in weightlifting is not straight and you will

struggle to complete the lifts. In the supertraining files you will see the

mechanics of the snatch and the clean as viewed from teh side you will see

th trajectory of the lift is not straight. I would not lift olympic lifts

with a smith machine

You can however do single arm cleans, snatches and jerks with dumbells.

These are quite usefull as they develop good stability and

co-ordination. Overhead squats and lunges with single arm dumbells are very

good to.

What are your training goals?

Regards

Nick Tatalias

Johannesburg

South Africa

>

> I have recently started an exercise program for increased strength that

> calls for periodic Olympic type lifts (i.e. clean and jerk, etc.) My

> gym has no free weights (barbells) but has a good machine as well

> as a good selection of dumbbells. Are there any negative issues in

> using the machine for Olympic style lifting? If so, can such

> lifts be performed with dumbbells instead?

>

> Thanks

>

> Tony saiz

> Miami, Florida

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

While the smith machine would eliminate some problems in the early stages of

learning the OL's, (it would eliminate the jumping forward, and allow you to

accentuate the shrug) it's hard to moved the bar on the smith at the speed

required without banging the safety catches, and the bar would catch on the them

before coming down in the catch phase, making for a frustrating training

session, at best.

Stick to the dumbells and light barbells, or stick to squat jumps, vertical

jumps, box jumps, etc. for explosive work- much smaller learning curve!

Personal note- I learned to hang clean on the bench press station of a universal

gym 30 years ago. It locked in a good shrug and nice catch position early.( I

know, heresy...)

Mark , MS, ATC, CSCS

Camillus, NY

[Guest guest]

Do them with dumbbells. Doing them on a machine is a bad idea.

Machines (and nearly all machines for that matter) fix the bar path and only

allow you to exert force in one plane of motion. This will give you a very

unnatural bar path for the Olympic lifts.

Garrison, CSCS*D

Mesa, AZ

Mesa Community College

============================

To: Supertraining@...: tonysaiz@...: Thu, 10 Jan 2008

22:32:54 +0000Subject: Machine for Olympic type exercises?

I have recently started an exercise program for increased strength that calls

for periodic Olympic type lifts (i.e. clean and jerk, etc.) My gym has no free

weights (barbells) but has a good machine as well as a good selection of

dumbbells. Are there any negative issues in using the machine for Olympic

style lifting? If so, can such lifts be performed with dumbbells instead?

ThanksTony saizMiami, Florida

===============================

[Guest guest]

Dumbbells yes! Machine NO! - The is almost worthless piece of crap!

The only value of the :

Adjustable push-up bar, horizontal pull up bar & stretching station. DO NOT lift

on it - the linear movement is unnatural and can lead to injuries - treat it

like all the other worthless garbage in gyms.

I would love to have a to use as an adjustable coat rack. If I ever get

the chance to, I would put one in my studio or home with coat hangers on it!

Stick to Barbells, Dumbbells, bodyweight, med. balls, cables (they move

three-dimnsinally), kettle-bells - anything you can move in a standing position

in all planes of motion - all seated machines: Cybex, Hammer, etc are worthless

rubbish that make real athletes slow and uncoordinated as well as stress joints

& tissues unnaturally leading to pattern overload syndromes and injury.

Gordon Waddell

USA City??

To: Supertraining

From: tonysaiz@...

Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 22:32:54 +0000

Subject: Machine for Olympic type exercises?

I have recently started an exercise program for increased strength

that

calls for periodic Olympic type lifts (i.e. clean and jerk, etc.) My

gym has no free weights (barbells) but has a good machine as well

as a good selection of dumbbells. Are there any negative issues in

using the machine for Olympic style lifting? If so, can such

lifts be performed with dumbbells instead?

=============================

[Guest guest]

Can your opinion of the be mitigated by versions of the machine that are

not north-south linear - but are set-off at an angle to mimmick the desired

movement of the back? And for purposes of form development? Do you feel the

same as regards lunges on the ? I give it credit for helping me re-develop

the ancillary muscle around my knee post-surgery....

Since all effective and safe weight-training is form-driven, couldn't a badly

formed movement using free-weights be just as worthless and/or dangerous?

Couldn't the tendencies of using everything from too-much weight, momentum and

bounce to train all contribute just as much to an injury-prone work-out, if not

more? Since these are the propensities of the dominate culture at most gyms,

couldn't a force greater control, attention to body and feet placement,

movement consistency and bounce restriction? Do you see all s as defective

in following the needed form in squat exercises, regardless of linear angle and

attention to feet placement or body form?

From what I have seen of gym-buddies training with dumb-bells, they provide a

greater opportunity to, well, train dumb, when you consider the selected weight,

lack of control and use of momentum that negates actual body/muscular form and

training objectives.... of course unless your objective is to see how much

weight you can swing....

Steve Nuin

Miami, Florida, USA

================================

gordon waddell wrote:

Dumbbells yes! Machine NO! - The is almost worthless piece of crap!

The only value of the :

Adjustable push-up bar, horizontal pull up bar & stretching station. DO NOT

lift on it - the linear movement is unnatural and can lead to injuries - treat

it like all the other worthless garbage in gyms.

I would love to have a to use as an adjustable coat rack. If I ever get

the chance to, I would put one in my studio or home with coat hangers on it!

Stick to Barbells, Dumbbells, bodyweight, med. balls, cables (they move

three-dimnsinally), kettle-bells - anything you can move in a standing position

in all planes of motion - all seated machines: Cybex, Hammer, etc are worthless

rubbish that make real athletes slow and uncoordinated as well as stress joints

& tissues unnaturally leading to pattern overload syndromes and injury.

Gordon Waddell

USA City??

To: Supertraining

From: tonysaiz@...

Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 22:32:54 +0000

Subject: Machine for Olympic type exercises?

I have recently started an exercise program for increased strength

that

calls for periodic Olympic type lifts (i.e. clean and jerk, etc.) My

gym has no free weights (barbells) but has a good machine as well

as a good selection of dumbbells. Are there any negative issues in

using the machine for Olympic style lifting? If so, can such

lifts be performed with dumbbells instead?

=============================

[Guest guest]

Gordon,

Tell us what you really think! Seriously though I agree with you for

the most part although there are somethings the and other

machines may be used for other than hanging clothes, like some forms

of rehab. Other than that I concur, being a staunch advocate of

standing erect, multi joint, free weight training.

W.G.

Ubermensch Sports Consultancy

San Diego CA.

>

> Dumbbells yes! Machine NO! - The is almost worthless

piece of crap!

>

> The only value of the :

>

> Adjustable push-up bar, horizontal pull up bar & stretching station.

DO NOT lift on it - the linear movement is unnatural and can lead to

injuries - treat it like all the other worthless garbage in gyms.

>

> I would love to have a to use as an adjustable coat rack. If I

ever get the chance to, I would put one in my studio or home with coat

hangers on it!

>

> Stick to Barbells, Dumbbells, bodyweight, med. balls, cables (they

move three-dimnsinally), kettle-bells - anything you can move in a

standing position in all planes of motion - all seated machines:

Cybex, Hammer, etc are worthless rubbish that make real athletes slow

and uncoordinated as well as stress joints & tissues unnaturally

leading to pattern overload syndromes and injury.

>

> Gordon Waddell

> USA City??

>

> To: Supertraining

> From: tonysaiz@...

> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 22:32:54 +0000

> Subject: Machine for Olympic type exercises?

>

> I have recently started an exercise program for

increased strength that

>

> calls for periodic Olympic type lifts (i.e. clean and jerk, etc.) My

>

> gym has no free weights (barbells) but has a good machine as well

>

> as a good selection of dumbbells. Are there any negative issues in

>

> using the machine for Olympic style lifting? If so, can such

>

> lifts be performed with dumbbells instead?

>

> =============================

>

[Guest guest]

Gordon,

Tell us what you really think! Seriously though I agree with you for

the most part although there are somethings the and other

machines may be used for other than hanging clothes, like some forms

of rehab. Other than that I concur, being a staunch advocate of

standing erect, multi joint, free weight training.

W.G.

Ubermensch Sports Consultancy

San Diego CA.

>

> Dumbbells yes! Machine NO! - The is almost worthless

piece of crap!

>

> The only value of the :

>

> Adjustable push-up bar, horizontal pull up bar & stretching station.

DO NOT lift on it - the linear movement is unnatural and can lead to

injuries - treat it like all the other worthless garbage in gyms.

>

> I would love to have a to use as an adjustable coat rack. If I

ever get the chance to, I would put one in my studio or home with coat

hangers on it!

>

> Stick to Barbells, Dumbbells, bodyweight, med. balls, cables (they

move three-dimnsinally), kettle-bells - anything you can move in a

standing position in all planes of motion - all seated machines:

Cybex, Hammer, etc are worthless rubbish that make real athletes slow

and uncoordinated as well as stress joints & tissues unnaturally

leading to pattern overload syndromes and injury.

>

> Gordon Waddell

> USA City??

>

> To: Supertraining

> From: tonysaiz@...

> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 22:32:54 +0000

> Subject: Machine for Olympic type exercises?

>

> I have recently started an exercise program for

increased strength that

>

> calls for periodic Olympic type lifts (i.e. clean and jerk, etc.) My

>

> gym has no free weights (barbells) but has a good machine as well

>

> as a good selection of dumbbells. Are there any negative issues in

>

> using the machine for Olympic style lifting? If so, can such

>

> lifts be performed with dumbbells instead?

>

> =============================

>

[Guest guest]

Other than the path of motion for the being linear vs. " natural " , I'd

say the other huge problem is that the bar doesn't spin. So even if

you were able to get the bar up, you'd have to let go of the bar to

get under it.

Cowell

Raleigh, NC

[Guest guest]

The machine prompts just as many lapses of FORM as free weights, possibly

more!

People seem to overload the thinking it's " SAFER " and well, get crushed by

it due to crappy form. (they rarely set the safeties up even, being mostly

oblivious to the use of such things...)

For rehab and a CONTROLLED partial rep for limited use, sure. But for general

production of size and strength? No thanks. People cheat on s in ways they

cannot on a free weight barbell - the classic " let's lean BACK INTO the BAR on a

" squat " but it's really a HACK move and do it that way " springs to mind here....

One more thing. One of the gyms I lift at? They actually have that damned

SMITH BACKWARDS. Yeah, you read me correctly. THE WRONG SIDE FACING THE

MIRROR. Thus the TRACKING would require you to face the gym side, NOT the

normal MIRROR SIDE, if you are SMART enough to notice it's " BACKWARDS " lol. So

far I've only seen ONE person actually use it the correct direction lol...

Few people use the for rehab, but as a crutch due to a failure to learn

real form on squats and other moves and a hesitancy to ask for actual help from

others to do so. I used the before I started training as a powerlifter

and it made my knees HURT so bad going to parallel that I nearly QUIT

squatting...I couldn't walk up the stairs! too much pain!

A couple months later, learned the PL squat with a barbell and voila! no pain

lol.

What's more, my " form " learned on the was WORTHLESS with a free weight

barbell! I had to learn to squat all over again. Eventually I did far more

with a free weight barbell on the platform than I had with a .... without

knee pain and with FAR better results!

I have enjoyed using db's for OL snatches too by the way. I can't picture you

managing that with any reasonable effectiveness using a ...and wasn't that

the original question?

I'd prefer the 2 db's - 1 in each hand cleans and presses to the for any

reason for OL lol. 1 handed snatches are FUN ....they're also fairly

challenging and require a good balance and explosiveness. Explosiveness on a

? <laughing> No.

Kinda wish I could talk my competitors into using a machine lol.

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

--------- Machine for Olympic type exercises?

I have recently started an exercise program for increased strength that

calls for periodic Olympic type lifts (i.e. clean and jerk, etc.) My

gym has no free weights (barbells) but has a good machine as well

as a good selection of dumbbells. Are there any negative issues in

using the machine for Olympic style lifting? If so, can such

lifts be performed with dumbbells instead?

=============================

[Guest guest]

I use a machine for my reverse bench routine in a gym where I'm alone.

On a flat bench with head facing in from the rear the angle of the travel of

the bar produces a kind of compacting effect in my tricepts and shoulders.

I don't have any more shoulder twinges and it's a great workout . I'd never

seen it done and thought I was a great excersise inventor which I'm

absolutely sure I'm not but, I'm glad to have discovered it and it's a good

use for a Machine.

Carson Wood

Westbrook, ME USA

==================================

Machine for Olympic type exercises?

>

> I have recently started an exercise program for

increased strength that

>

> calls for periodic Olympic type lifts (i.e. clean and jerk, etc.) My

>

> gym has no free weights (barbells) but has a good machine as well

>

> as a good selection of dumbbells. Are there any negative issues in

>

> using the machine for Olympic style lifting? If so, can such

>

> lifts be performed with dumbbells instead?

>

> =============================

>

[Guest guest]

I thought I would get severely crucified for my opinions of the - So far

that has not happened. Remember these are only my personal opinions based on

experience, observation and trying to learn from some of the best coaches/

therapists/ trainers.

I do no bodybuilding training and work mostly with rehab & sports performance.

Both of which need to be three-dimensional for real world carry over. So before

anyone quotes any bodybuilders etc. I do not think bodybuilding is a sport etc.

(we all had this debate weeks ago!)

I have never heard of or seen an offset machine to allow for proper back

positioning in squats etc. I know TRUE equipment makes the TRUE squat with

multiple chain linkage that is supposed to be the ideal squat form, however I

have never personally used or seen one. Like all machines, any will

decrease stabilizer activation, disrupt coordinated movement patterns and place

an unnatural load across joints.

The way I look at it: Poliquin, Boyle, Cosgrove, Cook, , Hartman - none

of these well known coaches/ therapists ever recommend a -for squats. I am

pretty sure they don't even have one in their gyms. These guys (and many others

) train tons of athletes / actors & regular people, make lots of money and never

use a for Squats & Olympic lifts (if they use one at all).

When I was trained by the coaches at USA weightlifting, they did not use a

. I have worked for 3 different sports PT's - none had a in their

clinics - but all had power racks!

I just hate that the average gym goer uses the because it is easier / they

can lift more, it is EGO training and they are setting themselves up for injury.

Here's something for fun: next time a big meathead has 2-3 plates per side on

the for squats/ lunges /deads - challenge him to do the same # of plates

in the power rack, be ready to call 911!!

I am sure someone can pull out some biomechanical analysis & other studies

showing benefits of the - I would ask to see who funded the research?

(Cybex, Icarian??)

I just think there are better & SAFER ways to exercise! YES, sloppy free weight

form can lead to injuries! - So the answer is LIGHTEN the weight and hire a good

coach / trainer to reach proper form! Especially in Olympic lifting and

Powerlifting - both are highly technical in their own ways and need to be

coached.

Just my opinion

Gordon Waddell

USA

[Guest guest]

I thought I would get severely crucified for my opinions of the - So far

that has not happened. Remember these are only my personal opinions based on

experience, observation and trying to learn from some of the best coaches/

therapists/ trainers.

I do no bodybuilding training and work mostly with rehab & sports performance.

Both of which need to be three-dimensional for real world carry over. So before

anyone quotes any bodybuilders etc. I do not think bodybuilding is a sport etc.

(we all had this debate weeks ago!)

I have never heard of or seen an offset machine to allow for proper back

positioning in squats etc. I know TRUE equipment makes the TRUE squat with

multiple chain linkage that is supposed to be the ideal squat form, however I

have never personally used or seen one. Like all machines, any will

decrease stabilizer activation, disrupt coordinated movement patterns and place

an unnatural load across joints.

The way I look at it: Poliquin, Boyle, Cosgrove, Cook, , Hartman - none

of these well known coaches/ therapists ever recommend a -for squats. I am

pretty sure they don't even have one in their gyms. These guys (and many others

) train tons of athletes / actors & regular people, make lots of money and never

use a for Squats & Olympic lifts (if they use one at all).

When I was trained by the coaches at USA weightlifting, they did not use a

. I have worked for 3 different sports PT's - none had a in their

clinics - but all had power racks!

I just hate that the average gym goer uses the because it is easier / they

can lift more, it is EGO training and they are setting themselves up for injury.

Here's something for fun: next time a big meathead has 2-3 plates per side on

the for squats/ lunges /deads - challenge him to do the same # of plates

in the power rack, be ready to call 911!!

I am sure someone can pull out some biomechanical analysis & other studies

showing benefits of the - I would ask to see who funded the research?

(Cybex, Icarian??)

I just think there are better & SAFER ways to exercise! YES, sloppy free weight

form can lead to injuries! - So the answer is LIGHTEN the weight and hire a good

coach / trainer to reach proper form! Especially in Olympic lifting and

Powerlifting - both are highly technical in their own ways and need to be

coached.

Just my opinion

Gordon Waddell

USA

[Guest guest]

Actually, that is not correct, most bars do spin, as part of the lever hooks

that catch the safety pins. And it is a good point, as I do tend to turn the

bar in-motion.... When you lift the bar up, you have to turn the bar so it

doesn't sit back down on the pin/stud. If you turn it all the way, it leaves

you plenty of room to turn as appropriate. Of course I am not talking about

Olympic training here. I am talking about fitness workouts. And I am reacting

to the wholesale dismissal of the as " worthless, " which of course isn't

true. You can feel the gluts engage, or change your form or placement to

localize another workout area, much more so than with free weights. And when

was the last time you saw someone training with free-weights where they had so

much control of the bar/weights that they didn't look like they were not holding

on for dear life? You call that training? Do you ever see them go down slow

and work that negative motion and go up slow the same

way without heeeing and haawing? That is the typical problem with free-weight,

since you are usually dealing with less than a full deck anyway,

psychologically. Just getting the lift in seems to trump the fitness,

functional and practical purpose. There is the " machismo " aspect to this the

whole training routine that seems to get overlooked. But if being in shape is

your objective, any machine or weight has the potential to assist you if given a

balanced contemplation of intent, goal and body type/disposition as measured not

just against the present fitness objective, but what seems to be missing in

sports psychology, longer-term fitness endurance. Is the method of training

going to increase or decrease the chances of the athlete to maintain, increase

or decrease athletic functional ability, over the long term? I have yet to see

much consideration over any training routines or recommendations that consider

these questions in the equation, more than something so silly

as a like or dislike of a specific machine, that can be as worthless as a

dead-weight being thoughtlessly placed overhead to the detriment of a

rotator-cuff if not done correctly, on a repetitive basis. If form and

endurance don't trump the choice of machine vs. free-weights, why all the

injuries? Why all the inflated body masses after age 50?

Steve Nuin

Miami, FL, USA

Cowell wrote: Other than

the path of motion for the being linear vs. " natural " , I'd

say the other huge problem is that the bar doesn't spin. So even if

you were able to get the bar up, you'd have to let go of the bar to

get under it.

Cowell

Raleigh, NC

============================

[Guest guest]

Steve,

You asked these questions of Gorden but since in agree with him I'll

give you my answers.

Here are your questions:

" Can your opinion of the be mitigated by versions of the machine

that are not north-south linear - but are set-off at an angle to

mimmick the desired movement of the back? "

No.

" And for purposes of form development? "

No.

" Do you feel the same as regards lunges on the ? "

Yes.

" I give it credit for helping me re-develop the ancillary muscle

around my knee post-surgery.... "

As far as I am concerned, rehab is about all a machine,

regardless of configuration, is good for, and even then, having

rehabilitated several National level Volleyball players with knee

problems, there are superior free weight methods of working the joint.

I never needed to use a machine.

" Since all effective and safe weight-training is form-driven, couldn't

a badly formed movement using free-weights be just as worthless and/or

dangerous? Couldn't the tendencies of using everything from too-much

weight, momentum and bounce to train all contribute just as much to an

injury-prone work-out, if not more? Since these are the propensities

of the dominate culture at most gyms, couldn't a force greater

control, attention to body and feet placement, movement consistency

and bounce restriction? Do you see all s as defective in

following the needed form in squat exercises, regardless of linear

angle and attention to feet placement or body form? "

Obviously. It's called " bad form " because its not as effective as or

has greater potential for injury than correct form. Almost any

exercise has some worth, even those done incorrectly. It's a question

of safety, efficacy and the return on time and energy expended. Free

weight training will always provide greater benefit in a healthy trainee.

" From what I have seen of gym-buddies training with dumb-bells, they

provide a greater opportunity to, well, train dumb, when you consider

the selected weight, lack of control and use of momentum that negates

actual body/muscular form and training objectives.... of course

unless your objective is to see how much weight you can swing... "

For me it is the height of hubris for people to go to a gym and

attempt to modify the most complex thing in the universe, the human

body, with resistance training and virtually no education. I have been

training and coaching for over 40 years and I am still constantly

learning. I'm also amazed at how ignorant people can be in the weight

room. That is the huge benefit of being part of this forum, being able

to ask questions and get a free education from people like Professor

Fahey, Dr. Yessis, Steve Plisk, Ken Oneil, Casler, Hobman,

Nick Tatalias, Krista -Dixon, Dan Partelly, etc, etc, etc.

Literally hundreds of years of education and most important, experience.

The people you're talking about just following what the supposedly

more experienced trainees are doing, combined with a random program

they found in some muscle mag along with weak training advice from

some gym rat or body builder wana be.

Having been a competitive athlete my entire life, I am unequivocally

convinced that the superior path to athletic excellence is to be

mentored/trained by an experienced coach knowledgeable in flexibility,

Weightlifting, weight training, plyometrics, nutrition and if

possible, the psychobiological components of training, (visualization,

meditation, focus, etc). This is absolutely essential for competitive

athletes, particularly college and national level athletes. If you

can't get one coach versed in these components of training, find

coaches who are adept at whatever discipline your primary coach may

lack expertise in and learn from them.

For those only interested in general health and well-being who desire

a certain level of fitness, engaging the most qualified personal

trainer to teach resistance training and design an appropriate program

provides many benefits, not the least of which is being properly

introduced to resistance training and hence proper technique.

As for swinging the weights, thats not always wrong. The gym

mythology, based largely on bodybuilding, is the importance of " strict

form " . Strict form is not always the best. For example, in Fleck and

Kramer's book " Designing Resistance Training Programs " , they found

that cheating curls, (driving the bar up off the bottom, (from the

arms fully extended position), with a little hip drive in order to use

a heavier weight than would be possible with " strict form " , provided

the most gains in strength. Kettle bell training consists of a lot of

swinging, and some Weightlifting too.

Not to be disingenuous, I understand your point, which makes mine. You

are surrounded by ignorant trainees. There nothing wrong with the

basic concept of free weight training, just their execution of it and

machines are not likely to help these people. They simply don't

know any better.

W.G.

Ubermensch Sports Consultancy

San Diego, CA.

Dumbbells yes! Machine NO! - The is almost worthless

piece of crap!

>

> The only value of the :

>

> Adjustable push-up bar, horizontal pull up bar & stretching

station. DO NOT lift on it - the linear movement is unnatural and can

lead to injuries - treat it like all the other worthless garbage in gyms.

>

> I would love to have a to use as an adjustable coat rack. If

I ever get the chance to, I would put one in my studio or home with

coat hangers on it!

>

> Stick to Barbells, Dumbbells, bodyweight, med. balls, cables (they

move three-dimnsinally), kettle-bells - anything you can move in a

standing position in all planes of motion - all seated machines:

Cybex, Hammer, etc are worthless rubbish that make real athletes slow

and uncoordinated as well as stress joints & tissues unnaturally

leading to pattern overload syndromes and injury.

>

> Gordon Waddell

> USA City??

>

> To: Supertraining

> From: tonysaiz@...

> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 22:32:54 +0000

> Subject: Machine for Olympic type exercises?

>

> I have recently started an exercise program for

increased strength that

>

> calls for periodic Olympic type lifts (i.e. clean and jerk, etc.) My

>

> gym has no free weights (barbells) but has a good machine as

well

>

> as a good selection of dumbbells. Are there any negative issues in

>

> using the machine for Olympic style lifting? If so, can such

>

> lifts be performed with dumbbells instead?

>

> =============================

>

[Guest guest]

Steve

You wrote this:

" Couldn't the tendencies of using everything from too-much weight, momentum

and bounce to train all contribute just as much to an injury-prone work-out,

if not more? "

I agree that poor form and movement can lead to injury however, I think in

many cases using the smith machines unatural movements results in poor

form. When you squat the bar does move forward and backward and no amount

of positioning of feet is going to prevent that so the machine does

force unatural movement.

More improtantly I would like to ask you what does use " momentum " mean. Why

is this to be avoided? If you are proposing that all movement should be

slow and at tempo then then may I ask how you propose doing Olympic lifts.

What are you trying to prevent when you say you want to stop bounce

movement. What do you mean by bouncing? When doing a jerk you deliberately

dip and then jerk to create the bounce in the bar, timing the jerk with the

fexion of the bar. You are also using the bodies stretch shortening cycle

and the elestic tension to help propel the weight. Similarly in the

squat, when you " hit the bottom " you co-ordinate the stretch shortening

cycle and the release of stored eleastic energy to lift more weight. The

use and development of the stretch shortening cycle and using and releasing

stored elastic energy from tendons along with powerfull muscular action with

a high rate of force development is part of the motor learning and

strengthening process for many sport applications like jumping, the

weightlifting catch phase, weightlifting jerks, heavy squats for power

lifting and running, high speed changes in direction e.g. cutting, strikes

(fighting), hitting (tackling, blocking, cleaning out at rucks-a rugby

thing-).

Bouncing a bench press off your chest is not allowed in powerlifting

competitions, so it is bad in that context, but I'm really not sure what you

mean by not bouncing and using momentum.

Best regards

Nick Tatalias

Johannesburg

South Africa

>

> Can your opinion of the be mitigated by versions of the machine

> that are not north-south linear - but are set-off at an angle to mimmick the

> desired movement of the back? And for purposes of form development? Do you

> feel the same as regards lunges on the ? I give it credit for helping

> me re-develop the ancillary muscle around my knee post-surgery....

>

> Since all effective and safe weight-training is form-driven, couldn't a

> badly formed movement using free-weights be just as worthless and/or

> dangerous? Couldn't the tendencies of using everything from too-much weight,

> momentum and bounce to train all contribute just as much to an injury-prone

> work-out, if not more? Since these are the propensities of the dominate

> culture at most gyms, couldn't a force greater control, attention to

> body and feet placement, movement consistency and bounce restriction? Do you

> see all s as defective in following the needed form in squat exercises,

> regardless of linear angle and attention to feet placement or body form?

>

> From what I have seen of gym-buddies training with dumb-bells, they

> provide a greater opportunity to, well, train dumb, when you consider the

> selected weight, lack of control and use of momentum that negates actual

> body/muscular form and training objectives.... of course unless your

> objective is to see how much weight you can swing....

>

> Steve Nuin

> Miami, Florida, USA

>

> ================================

>

>

> gordon waddell <g_k_waddell@... <g_k_waddell%40hotmail.com>>

> wrote: Dumbbells yes! Machine NO! - The is almost worthless

> piece of crap!

>

> The only value of the :

>

> Adjustable push-up bar, horizontal pull up bar & stretching station. DO

> NOT lift on it - the linear movement is unnatural and can lead to injuries -

> treat it like all the other worthless garbage in gyms.

>

> I would love to have a to use as an adjustable coat rack. If I ever

> get the chance to, I would put one in my studio or home with coat hangers on

> it!

>

> Stick to Barbells, Dumbbells, bodyweight, med. balls, cables (they move

> three-dimnsinally), kettle-bells - anything you can move in a standing

> position in all planes of motion - all seated machines: Cybex, Hammer, etc

> are worthless rubbish that make real athletes slow and uncoordinated as well

> as stress joints & tissues unnaturally leading to pattern overload syndromes

> and injury.

>

> Gordon Waddell

> USA City??

>

> To: Supertraining <Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>

> From: tonysaiz@... <tonysaiz%40yahoo.com>

> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 22:32:54 +0000

> Subject: Machine for Olympic type exercises?

>

> I have recently started an exercise program for increased strength that

>

> calls for periodic Olympic type lifts (i.e. clean and jerk, etc.) My

>

> gym has no free weights (barbells) but has a good machine as well

>

> as a good selection of dumbbells. Are there any negative issues in

>

> using the machine for Olympic style lifting? If so, can such

>

> lifts be performed with dumbbells instead?

>

> =============================

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Steve

You wrote this:

" Couldn't the tendencies of using everything from too-much weight, momentum

and bounce to train all contribute just as much to an injury-prone work-out,

if not more? "

I agree that poor form and movement can lead to injury however, I think in

many cases using the smith machines unatural movements results in poor

form. When you squat the bar does move forward and backward and no amount

of positioning of feet is going to prevent that so the machine does

force unatural movement.

More improtantly I would like to ask you what does use " momentum " mean. Why

is this to be avoided? If you are proposing that all movement should be

slow and at tempo then then may I ask how you propose doing Olympic lifts.

What are you trying to prevent when you say you want to stop bounce

movement. What do you mean by bouncing? When doing a jerk you deliberately

dip and then jerk to create the bounce in the bar, timing the jerk with the

fexion of the bar. You are also using the bodies stretch shortening cycle

and the elestic tension to help propel the weight. Similarly in the

squat, when you " hit the bottom " you co-ordinate the stretch shortening

cycle and the release of stored eleastic energy to lift more weight. The

use and development of the stretch shortening cycle and using and releasing

stored elastic energy from tendons along with powerfull muscular action with

a high rate of force development is part of the motor learning and

strengthening process for many sport applications like jumping, the

weightlifting catch phase, weightlifting jerks, heavy squats for power

lifting and running, high speed changes in direction e.g. cutting, strikes

(fighting), hitting (tackling, blocking, cleaning out at rucks-a rugby

thing-).

Bouncing a bench press off your chest is not allowed in powerlifting

competitions, so it is bad in that context, but I'm really not sure what you

mean by not bouncing and using momentum.

Best regards

Nick Tatalias

Johannesburg

South Africa

>

> Can your opinion of the be mitigated by versions of the machine

> that are not north-south linear - but are set-off at an angle to mimmick the

> desired movement of the back? And for purposes of form development? Do you

> feel the same as regards lunges on the ? I give it credit for helping

> me re-develop the ancillary muscle around my knee post-surgery....

>

> Since all effective and safe weight-training is form-driven, couldn't a

> badly formed movement using free-weights be just as worthless and/or

> dangerous? Couldn't the tendencies of using everything from too-much weight,

> momentum and bounce to train all contribute just as much to an injury-prone

> work-out, if not more? Since these are the propensities of the dominate

> culture at most gyms, couldn't a force greater control, attention to

> body and feet placement, movement consistency and bounce restriction? Do you

> see all s as defective in following the needed form in squat exercises,

> regardless of linear angle and attention to feet placement or body form?

>

> From what I have seen of gym-buddies training with dumb-bells, they

> provide a greater opportunity to, well, train dumb, when you consider the

> selected weight, lack of control and use of momentum that negates actual

> body/muscular form and training objectives.... of course unless your

> objective is to see how much weight you can swing....

>

> Steve Nuin

> Miami, Florida, USA

>

> ================================

>

>

> gordon waddell <g_k_waddell@... <g_k_waddell%40hotmail.com>>

> wrote: Dumbbells yes! Machine NO! - The is almost worthless

> piece of crap!

>

> The only value of the :

>

> Adjustable push-up bar, horizontal pull up bar & stretching station. DO

> NOT lift on it - the linear movement is unnatural and can lead to injuries -

> treat it like all the other worthless garbage in gyms.

>

> I would love to have a to use as an adjustable coat rack. If I ever

> get the chance to, I would put one in my studio or home with coat hangers on

> it!

>

> Stick to Barbells, Dumbbells, bodyweight, med. balls, cables (they move

> three-dimnsinally), kettle-bells - anything you can move in a standing

> position in all planes of motion - all seated machines: Cybex, Hammer, etc

> are worthless rubbish that make real athletes slow and uncoordinated as well

> as stress joints & tissues unnaturally leading to pattern overload syndromes

> and injury.

>

> Gordon Waddell

> USA City??

>

> To: Supertraining <Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>

> From: tonysaiz@... <tonysaiz%40yahoo.com>

> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 22:32:54 +0000

> Subject: Machine for Olympic type exercises?

>

> I have recently started an exercise program for increased strength that

>

> calls for periodic Olympic type lifts (i.e. clean and jerk, etc.) My

>

> gym has no free weights (barbells) but has a good machine as well

>

> as a good selection of dumbbells. Are there any negative issues in

>

> using the machine for Olympic style lifting? If so, can such

>

> lifts be performed with dumbbells instead?

>

> =============================

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Steve,

Where do you train in Miami? I lived and trained there for 3 and a half years

and saw men and woman using free weights every day that were not holding on for

dear life and were doing a controlled rep every time every set.

" That is the typical problem with free weights, since you are usually dealing

with less that a full deck anyway, psychologically. "

Steve you answer the question in your own statement. " Is the method of

training going to increase or decrease the chances of the athlete to maintain,

increase or decrease athletic functional ability, over the long term? " Hardly

any machine will increase athletic functional ability especially a

machine.

Bill

Havertown Pa

=============================

Stv wrote:

Actually, that is not correct, most bars do spin, as part of the lever

hooks that catch the safety pins. And it is a good point, as I do tend to turn

the bar in-motion.... When you lift the bar up, you have to turn the bar so it

doesn't sit back down on the pin/stud. If you turn it all the way, it leaves you

plenty of room to turn as appropriate. Of course I am not talking about Olympic

training here. I am talking about fitness workouts. And I am reacting to the

wholesale dismissal of the as " worthless, " which of course isn't true. You

can feel the gluts engage, or change your form or placement to localize another

workout area, much more so than with free weights. And when was the last time

you saw someone training with free-weights where they had so much control of the

bar/weights that they didn't look like they were not holding on for dear life?

You call that training? Do you ever see them go down slow and work that negative

motion and go up slow the same

way without heeeing and haawing? That is the typical problem with free-weight,

since you are usually dealing with less than a full deck anyway,

psychologically. Just getting the lift in seems to trump the fitness, functional

and practical purpose. There is the " machismo " aspect to this the whole training

routine that seems to get overlooked. But if being in shape is your objective,

any machine or weight has the potential to assist you if given a balanced

contemplation of intent, goal and body type/disposition as measured not just

against the present fitness objective, but what seems to be missing in sports

psychology, longer-term fitness endurance. Is the method of training going to

increase or decrease the chances of the athlete to maintain, increase or

decrease athletic functional ability, over the long term? I have yet to see much

consideration over any training routines or recommendations that consider these

questions in the equation, more than something so silly

as a like or dislike of a specific machine, that can be as worthless as a

dead-weight being thoughtlessly placed overhead to the detriment of a

rotator-cuff if not done correctly, on a repetitive basis. If form and endurance

don't trump the choice of machine vs. free-weights, why all the injuries? Why

all the inflated body masses after age 50?

Steve Nuin

Miami, FL, USA

Cowell wrote: Other than the path of motion for the

being linear vs. " natural " , I'd

say the other huge problem is that the bar doesn't spin. So even if

you were able to get the bar up, you'd have to let go of the bar to

get under it.

Cowell

Raleigh, NC

============================

[Guest guest]

Wow Gordon! You make statements about these machines makng athletes slow and

unco-ordinated, causing injuries etc. I trust you have formal studies and

research to prove your statements. Or is it just your opinion, which you are

certainly entitled to?

Lee Robillard

Mississauga, Ontario

Canada

=====================================

Nick Tatalias wrote:

Steve

You wrote this:

" Couldn't the tendencies of using everything from too-much weight, momentum

and bounce to train all contribute just as much to an injury-prone work-out,

if not more? "

I agree that poor form and movement can lead to injury however, I think in

many cases using the smith machines unatural movements results in poor

form. When you squat the bar does move forward and backward and no amount

of positioning of feet is going to prevent that so the machine does

force unatural movement.

More improtantly I would like to ask you what does use " momentum " mean. Why

is this to be avoided? If you are proposing that all movement should be

slow and at tempo then then may I ask how you propose doing Olympic lifts.

What are you trying to prevent when you say you want to stop bounce

movement. What do you mean by bouncing? When doing a jerk you deliberately

dip and then jerk to create the bounce in the bar, timing the jerk with the

fexion of the bar. You are also using the bodies stretch shortening cycle

and the elestic tension to help propel the weight. Similarly in the

squat, when you " hit the bottom " you co-ordinate the stretch shortening

cycle and the release of stored eleastic energy to lift more weight. The

use and development of the stretch shortening cycle and using and releasing

stored elastic energy from tendons along with powerfull muscular action with

a high rate of force development is part of the motor learning and

strengthening process for many sport applications like jumping, the

weightlifting catch phase, weightlifting jerks, heavy squats for power

lifting and running, high speed changes in direction e.g. cutting, strikes

(fighting), hitting (tackling, blocking, cleaning out at rucks-a rugby

thing-).

Bouncing a bench press off your chest is not allowed in powerlifting

competitions, so it is bad in that context, but I'm really not sure what you

mean by not bouncing and using momentum.

Best regards

Nick Tatalias

Johannesburg

South Africa

>

> Can your opinion of the be mitigated by versions of the machine

> that are not north-south linear - but are set-off at an angle to mimmick the

> desired movement of the back? And for purposes of form development? Do you

> feel the same as regards lunges on the ? I give it credit for helping

> me re-develop the ancillary muscle around my knee post-surgery....

>

> Since all effective and safe weight-training is form-driven, couldn't a

> badly formed movement using free-weights be just as worthless and/or

> dangerous? Couldn't the tendencies of using everything from too-much weight,

> momentum and bounce to train all contribute just as much to an injury-prone

> work-out, if not more? Since these are the propensities of the dominate

> culture at most gyms, couldn't a force greater control, attention to

> body and feet placement, movement consistency and bounce restriction? Do you

> see all s as defective in following the needed form in squat exercises,

> regardless of linear angle and attention to feet placement or body form?

>

> From what I have seen of gym-buddies training with dumb-bells, they

> provide a greater opportunity to, well, train dumb, when you consider the

> selected weight, lack of control and use of momentum that negates actual

> body/muscular form and training objectives.... of course unless your

> objective is to see how much weight you can swing....

>

> Steve Nuin

> Miami, Florida, USA

>

> ================================

[Guest guest]

Wow Gordon! You make statements about these machines makng athletes slow and

unco-ordinated, causing injuries etc. I trust you have formal studies and

research to prove your statements. Or is it just your opinion, which you are

certainly entitled to?

Lee Robillard

Mississauga, Ontario

Canada

=====================================

Nick Tatalias wrote:

Steve

You wrote this:

" Couldn't the tendencies of using everything from too-much weight, momentum

and bounce to train all contribute just as much to an injury-prone work-out,

if not more? "

I agree that poor form and movement can lead to injury however, I think in

many cases using the smith machines unatural movements results in poor

form. When you squat the bar does move forward and backward and no amount

of positioning of feet is going to prevent that so the machine does

force unatural movement.

More improtantly I would like to ask you what does use " momentum " mean. Why

is this to be avoided? If you are proposing that all movement should be

slow and at tempo then then may I ask how you propose doing Olympic lifts.

What are you trying to prevent when you say you want to stop bounce

movement. What do you mean by bouncing? When doing a jerk you deliberately

dip and then jerk to create the bounce in the bar, timing the jerk with the

fexion of the bar. You are also using the bodies stretch shortening cycle

and the elestic tension to help propel the weight. Similarly in the

squat, when you " hit the bottom " you co-ordinate the stretch shortening

cycle and the release of stored eleastic energy to lift more weight. The

use and development of the stretch shortening cycle and using and releasing

stored elastic energy from tendons along with powerfull muscular action with

a high rate of force development is part of the motor learning and

strengthening process for many sport applications like jumping, the

weightlifting catch phase, weightlifting jerks, heavy squats for power

lifting and running, high speed changes in direction e.g. cutting, strikes

(fighting), hitting (tackling, blocking, cleaning out at rucks-a rugby

thing-).

Bouncing a bench press off your chest is not allowed in powerlifting

competitions, so it is bad in that context, but I'm really not sure what you

mean by not bouncing and using momentum.

Best regards

Nick Tatalias

Johannesburg

South Africa

>

> Can your opinion of the be mitigated by versions of the machine

> that are not north-south linear - but are set-off at an angle to mimmick the

> desired movement of the back? And for purposes of form development? Do you

> feel the same as regards lunges on the ? I give it credit for helping

> me re-develop the ancillary muscle around my knee post-surgery....

>

> Since all effective and safe weight-training is form-driven, couldn't a

> badly formed movement using free-weights be just as worthless and/or

> dangerous? Couldn't the tendencies of using everything from too-much weight,

> momentum and bounce to train all contribute just as much to an injury-prone

> work-out, if not more? Since these are the propensities of the dominate

> culture at most gyms, couldn't a force greater control, attention to

> body and feet placement, movement consistency and bounce restriction? Do you

> see all s as defective in following the needed form in squat exercises,

> regardless of linear angle and attention to feet placement or body form?

>

> From what I have seen of gym-buddies training with dumb-bells, they

> provide a greater opportunity to, well, train dumb, when you consider the

> selected weight, lack of control and use of momentum that negates actual

> body/muscular form and training objectives.... of course unless your

> objective is to see how much weight you can swing....

>

> Steve Nuin

> Miami, Florida, USA

>

> ================================