Re: Strength Training for a 800m runner(In Season)

January 7, 2008

Hello Everyone!!

I just finished my last cycle for pre season lifting and now it is

time for me to taper down kind of because in three weeks it will be

time for me to start competing. I am very please with where I am at

and I think that this is the strongest I've been over all.

Now I have the task of putting together an inseason program in which

I find difficult because of peaking purposes..Thank God for

Supertraining...

So I wanted to get the input on in season training from you guys.

I start competing January 25th.

My first peak needs to be the weekend of Feb. 29-Mar. 1. It is our

indoor conference meet,so I figure I need to taper before that. I

will be running the 600meters that meet.

Between March 1st and March 27th I don't have a meet, so I would like

to do some good liftinng in between that time to get my strength

levels back up and then begin to taper off for outdoor.

My first outdoor meet is March 28th.

The main outdoor conference meet is May 3-4 and I know I have to

taper for that..

So that is the outline of my season.

I would just like to have a basic outline of how many days a week I

should lift, how many lifts and when to stop lifting.

I was thinking maybe a Tabata session once a week would be good or it

could be my last workout before the meet that week and maybe two

heavy lifting sessions early in the week. Just an idea.

Something else to think about,our running workouts are close to

threshold so I know fatigue will be an issue, and I should be care to

monitor how I feel and how much work Im getting in.

I appreciate all the info.

Thank You,

Archield

Tampa,Florida USA

January 11, 2008

I would drop the volume by reducing set lengths considerably.

A typical workout would look like this - pretty much like a warm up for a

power lifting meet

if you squat 200kgs IRM then I would do 2 X 20kg bar x 5 reps then 1set of

5reps on 60, 80 then 3 reps on 100 and one single each of 120, 140 and 160.

Next exercise or go home. The idea is to do just enough to maintain

strength gains that you have made or improve slightly over the season with

low volume. we aim at about 80% of 1RM and depending on the athlete may

occasionally go to 90%. Train 3 days a week something like Squat Monday,

Deadlift/overhead squat Tues, Clean Thurs.

We use protocols similar to this for our in season rugby players they play

games every Saturday, we include exercises like benching, rowing and front

squats for them, but not sure you need this for 800m races. The Rugby

season starts in late February and goes on until October (if you win

tournaments). The player do quite big volumes of sprint endurance

(practice) and strength endurance in scrums and rucking practice, so we try

to keep the volume down, but keep % of 1RM max up to maintain strength.

These are my thoughts, and I'm giving a principal. What else do you do

except running, do you do plyometrics or weight vest running, or do feel

that you get enough of that in you speed work and other training. Not sure

how to taper for your races, others might have an idea. How you taper

training for an MMA fighter or boxer might be similar, I will try to think

this through more. WIll talk to the 10k runners about their tappering

stratergies.

Nick Tatalias

Joahhnesburg

South Africa

>

> Hello Everyone!!

> I just finished my last cycle for pre season lifting and now it is

> time for me to taper down kind of because in three weeks it will be

> time for me to start competing. I am very please with where I am at

> and I think that this is the strongest I've been over all.

>

> Now I have the task of putting together an inseason program in which

> I find difficult because of peaking purposes..Thank God for

> Supertraining...

>

> So I wanted to get the input on in season training from you guys.

>

> I start competing January 25th.

> My first peak needs to be the weekend of Feb. 29-Mar. 1. It is our

> indoor conference meet,so I figure I need to taper before that. I

> will be running the 600meters that meet.

>

> Between March 1st and March 27th I don't have a meet, so I would like

> to do some good liftinng in between that time to get my strength

> levels back up and then begin to taper off for outdoor.

>

> My first outdoor meet is March 28th.

>

> The main outdoor conference meet is May 3-4 and I know I have to

> taper for that..

>

> So that is the outline of my season.

>

> I would just like to have a basic outline of how many days a week I

> should lift, how many lifts and when to stop lifting.

>

> I was thinking maybe a Tabata session once a week would be good or it

> could be my last workout before the meet that week and maybe two

> heavy lifting sessions early in the week. Just an idea.

>

> Something else to think about,our running workouts are close to

> threshold so I know fatigue will be an issue, and I should be care to

> monitor how I feel and how much work Im getting in.

>

> I appreciate all the info.

>

> Thank You,

> Archield

> Tampa,Florida USA

>

January 11, 2008

I would have them lift two days a week. Doing squats, power cleans, maybe front

squats, lateral squats, and some upper body exercises. Use 80-90% of 1Rm, and

3-5 sets of 3-5 reps. Keep it intense power/strength based and short.

Garrison,CSCS*D

Mesa,AZ

Mesa Community College

==================================

To: Supertraining@...: nick.tatalias@...: Fri, 11 Jan

2008 15:47:02 +0200Subject: Re: Strength Training for a 800m

runner(In Season)

I would drop the volume by reducing set lengths considerably.A typical workout

would look like this - pretty much like a warm up for apower lifting meetif you

squat 200kgs IRM then I would do 2 X 20kg bar x 5 reps then 1set of5reps on 60,

80 then 3 reps on 100 and one single each of 120, 140 and 160.Next exercise or

go home. The idea is to do just enough to maintainstrength gains that you have

made or improve slightly over the season withlow volume. we aim at about 80% of

1RM and depending on the athlete mayoccasionally go to 90%. Train 3 days a week

something like Squat Monday,Deadlift/overhead squat Tues, Clean Thurs.We use

protocols similar to this for our in season rugby players they playgames every

Saturday, we include exercises like benching, rowing and frontsquats for them,

but not sure you need this for 800m races. The Rugbyseason starts in late

February and goes on until October (if you wintournaments). The player do quite

big volumes of sprint endurance(practice) and strength endurance in scrums and

rucking practice, so we tryto keep the volume down, but keep % of 1RM max up to

maintain strength.These are my thoughts, and I'm giving a principal. What else

do you doexcept running, do you do plyometrics or weight vest running, or do

feelthat you get enough of that in you speed work and other training. Not

surehow to taper for your races, others might have an idea. How you

tapertraining for an MMA fighter or boxer might be similar, I will try to

thinkthis through more. WIll talk to the 10k runners about their

tapperingstratergies.Nick TataliasJoahhnesburgSouth AfricaOn 07/01/2008,

itsmeyoungb wrote:>> Hello Everyone!!> I just finished my

last cycle for pre season lifting and now it is> time for me to taper down kind

of because in three weeks it will be> time for me to start competing. I am very

please with where I am at> and I think that this is the strongest I've been over

all.>> Now I have the task of putting together an inseason program in which> I

find difficult because of peaking purposes..Thank God for> Supertraining...>> So

I wanted to get the input on in season training from you guys.>> I start

competing January 25th.> My first peak needs to be the weekend of Feb. 29-Mar.

1. It is our> indoor conference meet,so I figure I need to taper before that. I>

will be running the 600meters that meet.>> Between March 1st and March 27th I

don't have a meet, so I would like> to do some good liftinng in between that

time to get my strength> levels back up and then begin to taper off for

outdoor.>> My first outdoor meet is March 28th.>> The main outdoor conference

meet is May 3-4 and I know I have to> taper for that..>> So that is the outline

of my season.>> I would just like to have a basic outline of how many days a

week I> should lift, how many lifts and when to stop lifting.>> I was thinking

maybe a Tabata session once a week would be good or it> could be my last workout

before the meet that week and maybe two> heavy lifting sessions early in the

week. Just an idea.>> Something else to think about,our running workouts are

close to> threshold so I know fatigue will be an issue, and I should be care to>

monitor how I feel and how much work Im getting in.>> I appreciate all the

info.>> Thank You,> Archield> Tampa,Florida USA>>

===================================

January 12, 2008

> I just finished my last cycle for pre season lifting and now it is

> time for me to taper down kind of because in three weeks it will be

> time for me to start competing. I am very please with where I am at

> and I think that this is the strongest I've been over all.

>

> I was thinking maybe a Tabata session once a week would be good or it

> could be my last workout before the meet that week and maybe two

> heavy lifting sessions early in the week. Just an idea.

>

> Thank You,

> Archield

> Tampa,Florida USA

, with all due respect, why on earth would you consider

doing 'Tabata protocol' training when you're an 800 metre runner? For

goodness sake, get outside on the track or do some hills. Get a decent

800 metre track training program and forget about the trivia.

And don't lift heavy in-season. You're a middle distance runner not a

freakin' powerlifter! Do heavy stuff pre-season if you want to, and

power train in-season if you want to do weights. 60%1RM max explosive,

plyos, and no more.

Gympie, Australia

January 14, 2008

Hi

If you recall is a converted 400m hurdle runner. In sprint events

weight training seems quite appropriate. In my view the 800m is almost the

same a sprint event if not the same. Here is my logic as to why should

lift weights. Given the recent posts on the energy system demands of sport

I think it may be useful to analyse this for an 800m run. The event can be

run at quite a pace, or tactically (which favours a runner like who

has speed and sprint endurance). In previous discussions it was apparent

that after the P-Cr system was exhausted (at around 30 seconds) the

glycolytic system was the major contributor to the energy system. Fast

twitch (type II A) with mitochondria for metabolising glucose, re-using

lactates and pyruvates would be the muscle of choice to provide the athlete

running the 800m as the event is usually over before the Type II A muscles

are used up and Type I muscles must be used. Usually the Type II A fibres

last for about 3 minutes if I recall the posts. The reason I conclude that

Type II A muscles fibre are preferable to Type I is that the force

generated by these muscles is significantly higher and the rate of force

development is greater also making athletic endevour faster and more

explosive. Further more in post from about a year ago around the Weyand

2001 study it was proposed as part of that study that the bodies ability to

maintain (with out fatigue) strength to rebound the landing forces was what

made athletes running at top speed run at that speed. Stronger athletes

were able to maintain top speed running for longer and had longer stride

lengths thus covering the ground faster. Thus to be able to run faster for

longer, the athlete should build strength but not at the expense of

increased body mass (relative strength). Low volume higher intensity

(defined as % of 1RM in this instance) would be beneficial in maintaining

off season strength gains without stimulating inappropriate mass building

hypertrophy. This was why I suggested the low volume high % of 1RM (80% to

85% perhaps 90% in some cases) programme.

's second question about Tabata protocols adapted to strength training

or running for that matter, was not that silly a question. Given the

" anaerobic " demands on the glycolitic system during the 800m run training

the body in a style that challenges the body to adapt to high lactate build

up (which repeat high intensity (this case defined as a % of sprint speed or

a 15RM) training may help the body adapt to endocrine system to deal with

the onset of acidosis (thus improve lactate formation, H+ ions from the

cells to mitochondria(intracellular) or carbonate transfer of H+ to the

extra cellular fluid and blood. Essentials of Strength Training and

Conditioning states " Accordingly, the contribution of conditioning to

optimal performance can be realised only if intensity is maximal " High

intensity training (through Tabata style protocols) may be beneficial. Sure

hill sprints and weight vest running (as I alluded to in my previous post)

may add intensity to the training and are useful, however are they optimal

on their own. A system of lifting a 15RM for 8 to 12 reps in a front squat

(or similar full body training) for a 20 seconds followed by 10 seconds rest

for eight sets (4 minutes total time) was popularised by coach Dan and

nick-named Tabata style lifting. This type of training seems to stimulate

strength and glycolytic adaption in a very short training period (short to

maintain intensity). It may also improve capiliarization of the muscle

tissue which may improve extra cellular transfer of H+ to the blood. " This

indicates that resistance training results in alterations to lactate

response similar to those from Aerobic training (42, 60, 110) " from

Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning which also states " The high

intensity and low volume seen in power lifting is associate with no change

or a decrease in capillary density due to the dilution effects eiifecs of

muscular fibre hypertophy conversely, training of low intensity with high

volume such as that used by body builders, may actually increase

capilliarization. " This " Tabata " type weight training may well be effective

for capiliarization and a good counter point to the low volume strength

training I offered. s 800m running and speed drills (e.g. 600m

sprints) may contribute to improved capiliarization and adaption to lactate

metabolism, but adding a strength component that does this with light loads

may be beneficial. One would have to make sure that this does not stimulate

hypertrophy or this protocol may be counter productive.

The question in all of this is how to get the results by combining running

training and gym work. I think finding a strategy that helps not over

reach too close to the competition is helpful. In my opinion maintain

strength with low volume high % of 1RM (80 to 85) in the build up I have

shown. its probably a workout that is over in 20 minute and either a

second movement can be performed or can leave the gym (probably

feeling like more is possible). I would not use Tabata type protocols in

the week before a race, even if they only last 4 minutes they exhaust one

(my personal experience) for days, if Tabata style is to be included then in

the weeks preceding the competition, to allow this training to improve

capilliarization and facilitate lactate & energy system endocrine changes.

Tapering into the competition I would do the last session e.g the squat

session to 85% (90% if easy) of 1RM on the Tuesday and no more gym the rest

of the week. Technical runs and stride through etc for running and at low

volumes also.

I'd appreciate some feed back on my suggestion and my logic for training in

the weight room for . I would like to understand your reasoning

with regards to your recomendation to , as you seem to have significant

experience in training runners. This way I can learn more.

Best Regards

Nick Tatalias

Johannesburg

South Africa

>

> > I just finished my last cycle for pre season lifting and now it is

> > time for me to taper down kind of because in three weeks it will be

> > time for me to start competing. I am very please with where I am at

> > and I think that this is the strongest I've been over all.

> >

> > I was thinking maybe a Tabata session once a week would be good or it

> > could be my last workout before the meet that week and maybe two

> > heavy lifting sessions early in the week. Just an idea.

> >

> > Thank You,

> > Archield

> > Tampa,Florida USA

>

> , with all due respect, why on earth would you consider

> doing 'Tabata protocol' training when you're an 800 metre runner? For

> goodness sake, get outside on the track or do some hills. Get a decent

> 800 metre track training program and forget about the trivia.

>

> And don't lift heavy in-season. You're a middle distance runner not a

> freakin' powerlifter! Do heavy stuff pre-season if you want to, and

> power train in-season if you want to do weights. 60%1RM max explosive,

> plyos, and no more.

>

> Gympie, Australia

>

January 15, 2008

Nick, thanks for the response. I recall most of our earlier

discussion on this subject. Here is my general approach based on many

years of track and road racing -- albeit at an amateur level -- and I

can't claim to have coached any elite athletes.

1. The 800m is still mostly an aerobic race (<>60%). It looks like a

sprint sometimes and there clearly is a high anaerobic requirement.

However, I'm not convinced many 400 metre runners make successful

adaptations to 800m. The reasons may be physiological and

psychological.

2. We don't really know if weight training improves performance in

800m racers even though, as discussed previously, some studies

suggest improvement in running economy and perhaps speed in middle

distance runners.

3. If you read the professional 800 metre forums, which I do from

time to time, you can see that the main point of disagreement is to

do with the balance between intensity and volume (hey, where have I

heard that before?). Strength weight training is mentioned from time

to time, and at least some of them seem to do some gym work, but it

does not seem to rate highly in discussion, which is not necessarily

a good guide.

4. As most of these guys seem to agree, there is not one single

training model that works for everyone. Naturally, this may have to

do with percentage fibre type etc. You have the guys coming down from

1500 and 5000 and the guys and gals coming up from 400. And they

document some people moving up from 400 metres who are just not able

to perform at 800 no matter how they train.

5. Even though my response to may have seemed a little harsh

(sorry ), I was concerned that he seemed too keen to concentrate

on gym work. I may be mistaken. I hope he is doing at least 80 kms/wk

on the road plus the necessary sprint and track intervals. Steve

Ovett by the way (and others), did up to 200 kms/week. Yet he still

managed to run 11.8s from 1300-1400 metres in a 1500m race that he

won.

6. I am not against some weight training for middle distance and up.

My cautionary approach is that heavy strength training, eg, 2-4RM low

volume etc might best be done pre-season because we don't really know

how this might affect other elements of 800m capacity if done in-

season. I am not so concerned about bulking up because the track and

road work will knock this down for sure.

7. Also, if training can be done with specificity for an event, then

that's pretty much where most training should concentrate. I question

whether weight strength training in-season would provide advantages

over similar time spent running hills, which would build the type of

specific strength required, and which seems to be successfully

utilised by most middle distance runners. I understand that one could

do both -- as long as it does not down-regulate other important

adaptations, eg, aerobic capacity, capillary and mitochondrial

development.

8. As I stated, some explosive type training in-season would be my

preference. I would also monitor vertical jump performance, which

might go some way toward establishing that no elastic component has

been compromised with low-volume strength training. I note one study

that suggests this could occur. (I recall Carl saying that the

worst season he had was the one he spent in the gym.)

9. I understand that Tabata training could supplement other high-

intensity training. However, my objection relates to my point above.

Why would one do Tabata training in a gym when you can do much more

specific, high-intensity running training on a track or hills with

superior specificity. Lactate is lactate and capillaries are

capillaries. You won't do better for either than track intervals or

road running respectively in my view.

10. Having said that, I understand the Tabata weights idea, eg Dan

, although I had not heard of it previously. I do something

similar in training for masters sprints. Here's my main strength

program in-season:

a. Barbell hang clean press (explosive) 3x8 (about 40% 1RM)

b. Romanian deadlifts (3x10) (about 60%)

c. Hang jump squats with barbell (small bar) or dumbbells, or box

marches with plenty of height.

d. I precede all this (after mild warmup) with two 5 minutes sessions

on bike or treadmill, each one building to the last two minutes at 90-

95% max heart rate with last 30 seconds flat out -- with two minutes

break in between. Or, a full ten minute treadmill or bike session

building to 90-100% over last three minutes.

I'm well warm by the time I reach the weights room :-). I do a few

other isolation exercises that I enjoy at about 8-12RM. Soon, I'll

back off and do mostly track work while racing.

But back to 800m. Because of the aerobic component in the 800m, what

I might experiment with for sprints could be much more of a risk for

because of the potential conflict of adaptations.

There may indeed be several routes to success with the 800 metres, so

in retrospect, probably should experiment but take note of what

the minimum requirements are for high performance in this race.

Kind regards,

Gympie, Australia

> >

> > > I just finished my last cycle for pre season lifting and now it

is

> > > time for me to taper down kind of because in three weeks it

will be

> > > time for me to start competing. I am very please with where I

am at

> > > and I think that this is the strongest I've been over all.

> > >

> > > I was thinking maybe a Tabata session once a week would be good

or it

> > > could be my last workout before the meet that week and maybe two

> > > heavy lifting sessions early in the week. Just an idea.

> > >

> > > Thank You,

> > > Archield

> > > Tampa,Florida USA

> >

> > , with all due respect, why on earth would you consider

> > doing 'Tabata protocol' training when you're an 800 metre runner?

For

> > goodness sake, get outside on the track or do some hills. Get a

decent

> > 800 metre track training program and forget about the trivia.

> >

> > And don't lift heavy in-season. You're a middle distance runner

not a

> > freakin' powerlifter! Do heavy stuff pre-season if you want to,

and

> > power train in-season if you want to do weights. 60%1RM max

explosive,

> > plyos, and no more.

> >

> > Gympie, Australia

> >

>

January 16, 2008

Hi

Thanks for this post, I guess be specific is the lesson here, I take your

point. Being some one who only ever sprinted about 60m to score on an

interception, I don't always get the middle and long distance stuff. Rugby

players are very different to this despite needing to sustain high intensity

sprints for about 90 seconds (probability of scoring peaks at about 90

seconds of possession). My coach used to train a top level (South African

champion standard) boxer also and again we adapted from the traditional road

training for him to short sprints (50 m) timed for 3 minute round with and

gym work as the mainstay - of course they went to the boxing coaches for

technical training. The problem with a sample of one is that the athlete may

just be a dam good fighter irrespective of what we did, yet when he went to

one off to one of the top fight trainers and back to traditional road work

training he seemed to lack the thrust and power and his career tapered

off. I was trying to use that experience (learning from other) and apply

this to 's situation. The problem is always making sure that the

athlete is progressing optimally and would have to judge that for

himself.

Best Regards

Nick Tatalias

Johannesburg

South Africa

>

> Nick, thanks for the response. I recall most of our earlier

> discussion on this subject. Here is my general approach based on many

> years of track and road racing -- albeit at an amateur level -- and I

> can't claim to have coached any elite athletes.

>

> 1. The 800m is still mostly an aerobic race (<>60%). It looks like a

> sprint sometimes and there clearly is a high anaerobic requirement.

> However, I'm not convinced many 400 metre runners make successful

> adaptations to 800m. The reasons may be physiological and

> psychological.

>

> 2. We don't really know if weight training improves performance in

> 800m racers even though, as discussed previously, some studies

> suggest improvement in running economy and perhaps speed in middle

> distance runners.

>

> 3. If you read the professional 800 metre forums, which I do from

> time to time, you can see that the main point of disagreement is to

> do with the balance between intensity and volume (hey, where have I

> heard that before?). Strength weight training is mentioned from time

> to time, and at least some of them seem to do some gym work, but it

> does not seem to rate highly in discussion, which is not necessarily

> a good guide.

>

> 4. As most of these guys seem to agree, there is not one single

> training model that works for everyone. Naturally, this may have to

> do with percentage fibre type etc. You have the guys coming down from

> 1500 and 5000 and the guys and gals coming up from 400. And they

> document some people moving up from 400 metres who are just not able

> to perform at 800 no matter how they train.

>

> 5. Even though my response to may have seemed a little harsh

> (sorry ), I was concerned that he seemed too keen to concentrate

> on gym work. I may be mistaken. I hope he is doing at least 80 kms/wk

> on the road plus the necessary sprint and track intervals. Steve

> Ovett by the way (and others), did up to 200 kms/week. Yet he still

> managed to run 11.8s from 1300-1400 metres in a 1500m race that he

> won.

>

> 6. I am not against some weight training for middle distance and up.

> My cautionary approach is that heavy strength training, eg, 2-4RM low

> volume etc might best be done pre-season because we don't really know

> how this might affect other elements of 800m capacity if done in-

> season. I am not so concerned about bulking up because the track and

> road work will knock this down for sure.

>

> 7. Also, if training can be done with specificity for an event, then

> that's pretty much where most training should concentrate. I question

> whether weight strength training in-season would provide advantages

> over similar time spent running hills, which would build the type of

> specific strength required, and which seems to be successfully

> utilised by most middle distance runners. I understand that one could

> do both -- as long as it does not down-regulate other important

> adaptations, eg, aerobic capacity, capillary and mitochondrial

> development.

>

> 8. As I stated, some explosive type training in-season would be my

> preference. I would also monitor vertical jump performance, which

> might go some way toward establishing that no elastic component has

> been compromised with low-volume strength training. I note one study

> that suggests this could occur. (I recall Carl saying that the

> worst season he had was the one he spent in the gym.)

>

> 9. I understand that Tabata training could supplement other high-

> intensity training. However, my objection relates to my point above.

> Why would one do Tabata training in a gym when you can do much more

> specific, high-intensity running training on a track or hills with

> superior specificity. Lactate is lactate and capillaries are

> capillaries. You won't do better for either than track intervals or

> road running respectively in my view.

>

> 10. Having said that, I understand the Tabata weights idea, eg Dan

> , although I had not heard of it previously. I do something

> similar in training for masters sprints. Here's my main strength

> program in-season:

>

> a. Barbell hang clean press (explosive) 3x8 (about 40% 1RM)

> b. Romanian deadlifts (3x10) (about 60%)

> c. Hang jump squats with barbell (small bar) or dumbbells, or box

> marches with plenty of height.

> d. I precede all this (after mild warmup) with two 5 minutes sessions

> on bike or treadmill, each one building to the last two minutes at 90-

> 95% max heart rate with last 30 seconds flat out -- with two minutes

> break in between. Or, a full ten minute treadmill or bike session

> building to 90-100% over last three minutes.

>

> I'm well warm by the time I reach the weights room :-). I do a few

> other isolation exercises that I enjoy at about 8-12RM. Soon, I'll

> back off and do mostly track work while racing.

>

> But back to 800m. Because of the aerobic component in the 800m, what

> I might experiment with for sprints could be much more of a risk for

> because of the potential conflict of adaptations.

>

> There may indeed be several routes to success with the 800 metres, so

> in retrospect, probably should experiment but take note of what

> the minimum requirements are for high performance in this race.

>

> Kind regards,

>

> Gympie, Australia

>

> > >

> > > > I just finished my last cycle for pre season lifting and now it

> is

> > > > time for me to taper down kind of because in three weeks it

> will be

> > > > time for me to start competing. I am very please with where I

> am at

> > > > and I think that this is the strongest I've been over all.

> > > >

> > > > I was thinking maybe a Tabata session once a week would be good

> or it

> > > > could be my last workout before the meet that week and maybe two

> > > > heavy lifting sessions early in the week. Just an idea.

> > > >

> > > > Thank You,

> > > > Archield

> > > > Tampa,Florida USA

> > >

> > > , with all due respect, why on earth would you consider

> > > doing 'Tabata protocol' training when you're an 800 metre runner?

> For

> > > goodness sake, get outside on the track or do some hills. Get a

> decent

> > > 800 metre track training program and forget about the trivia.

> > >

> > > And don't lift heavy in-season. You're a middle distance runner

> not a

> > > freakin' powerlifter! Do heavy stuff pre-season if you want to,

> and

> > > power train in-season if you want to do weights. 60%1RM max

> explosive,

> > > plyos, and no more.

> > >

> > > Gympie, Australia

> > >

> >

January 16, 2008

Hi !

One of the easiest self-assessments you can do relative to your current

progress in the 800 is:

1) determine your seasonal goal--what you want to run at the most important

races in your training cycle

2) run the 800 in practice as fast as you are currently capable

3) start your watch or have a teammate time you

4) stop or have your teammate whistle or signal you to stop when the goal

time on the watch is reached

5) see how far from the finish line you actually are when the watch reaches

your goal time

It is always good for an athlete to get a 'perspective' in distance as well

as time in order to help them direct their training plan.

It's amazing what this simple test does in terms of getting you to think

'meters from your goal' rather than just 'fewer seconds to achieve that goal.'

Ken Jakalski

Lisle High School

Lisle, Illinois USA

January 16, 2008

Ok..Let me try to throw my two cents in...

I am a 400/800 type guy. Although it is true that I need a certain

amount of mileage, too much will kill me results.This summer, I did

25 miles a week on the road,and it absolulely was somewhat of a

detriment to my progress.Although I had better aerobic capacity, I

had lost a great bit of speed. This was evident as I am a 48 sec 400m

runner and I could only mustard 53 seconds at the beginning of

october.I am just now getting my speed back.

Something else to remember is I am still mainly a 400 hurdler. I am

running the 800 indoors to help the last 200 meters of my race for

the 400 hurdles. I think understood it as I only run the 800 and

I am sorry if I was unclear about that. You post is not at all harsh

as I am learning just as you are.

This situation is difficult for me because my college doesnt not have

a coach conditioned in this area of running and lifting and most of

the athletes have to come up with their own strength and conditioning

programs. In my case is could be hit or miss because I never know if

Im doing the right thing. But In my humble opinion I believe the

strength I have built up needs to be maintained as last year, I had a

training partner who lifting like he ran the 100 meters and he was

about to run 1:52 for the 800 meters. My genetics and body type may

be different but what is the point of building great deals of

strength and power and not using it if can beneficial. The power lies

in my situation is to balance the two without much weight gain as I

am very very prone to weight gain.

Those are just my two cents. Here is my program form the week it will

allow everyone to see what I am doing. Heated debate is the only way

to get to the truth of close to it, so keep everything coming.

Monday January 14th

Hang Clean and Jerk at 140lbs 3 reps and 5 sets

Back squats x 5 at 275lbs,4 at 280lbs,3 at 285lbs,3 at 290lbs,2 at

295lbs.

Dumbell Bench Press 5 reps x 3 sets with 80lbs dumbells

Dumbell Lat Row 6 reps x 3 sets with 65lbs dumbells.

Wednesday January 16th

Power snatch + overhead squat 3reps x 5 sets at 115lbs

Barbell Bench Press 3reps x 5 sets a 190 lbs

Good Mornings 5reps x5sets at 150 lbs

Lat Pull Down 6x4

I know I lift a little heavier than must 800 runners but is just a

natural things for me. I havent really stopped making progress and I

am not really gaining weight. So you guys can pick that apart. I

appreciate the criticism.

.Archield

Tampa,Florida USA

>

> Hi

>

> Thanks for this post, I guess be specific is the lesson here, I

take your

> point. Being some one who only ever sprinted about 60m to score on

an

> interception, I don't always get the middle and long distance

stuff. Rugby

> players are very different to this despite needing to sustain high

intensity

> sprints for about 90 seconds (probability of scoring peaks at about

90

> seconds of possession). My coach used to train a top level (South

African

> champion standard) boxer also and again we adapted from the

traditional road

> training for him to short sprints (50 m) timed for 3 minute round

with and

> gym work as the mainstay - of course they went to the boxing

coaches for

> technical training. The problem with a sample of one is that the

athlete may

> just be a dam good fighter irrespective of what we did, yet when he

went to

> one off to one of the top fight trainers and back to traditional

road work

> training he seemed to lack the thrust and power and his career

tapered

> off. I was trying to use that experience (learning from other) and

apply

> this to 's situation. The problem is always making sure that

the

> athlete is progressing optimally and would have to judge that

for

> himself.

>

> Best Regards

> Nick Tatalias

> Johannesburg

> South Africa

January 16, 2008

--- itsmeyoungb wrote:

> Ok..Let me try to throw my two cents in...

, I would also like to add two cents of my own to

this interesting dialogue.

I do agree with 's assessment and his suggestions.

I have no experience in coaching runners however I do

have extensive experience in coaching cyclists.

I have never been one to accept on blind faith a

training regimen of any kind without asking the

question " why " should this work better than some other

regimen.

One of the biggest problems I came across frequently,

while coaching cyclists, was athletes who did a lot of

hard training but very little " smart " training.

Many of the cyclists put in a lot of miles every week

with little benefit because they were not riding the

miles with a purpose. They putting in a lot of miles

because that was what the professional riders were

doing but there was no rhyme or reason to their

program.

The same can be said for weight training and running.

lots of running and lots of lifting does not guarantee

faster times unless there is specific goals within the

training.

You have done a lot of work over the past months

building your strength through weight lifting. Now

you have to convert that lifting strength into running

strength.

I have always found it best to break down an activity

into its components and try to analyze how to best

improve the various components and have them work well

together.

I would like to first analyze your strength regimen.

When you did your lifting or squatting you probably

used relatively heavy weights with which you were able

to perform 3-4 sets of 8-12 reps each.

Each set took about 1 minute or less and you rested

about 2-3 minutes between sets. That makes for a

total of 36-48 reps of a particular activity over

10-12 minutes per session.

Now lets take a look at how you plan on using this

strength. You are going to run 800 meters as fast as

you can.

I have no idea how long an average stride is when

running a 800 meter race so I will, for the sake of

this discussion, estimate that you will have to take

350-500 strides from start to finish. That is 350-500

reps in about 2 minutes.

Nothing you did in the gym can replicate this

activity.

Now lets take a peek into the muscles you have

produced with all that work. Your resistance training

helped you develop a lot of large Type IIB fibers

which contain very few mitochondria. Great for short

powerful efforts but easily fatigued.

What do you need in order to perform 350-500 reps in

two minutes. Lots of Type IIA fibers loaded with

glucose burning mitochondria. To accommodate these

mitochondria the cell needs to sacrifice some

intracellular fibrils (thus sacrificing some

strength).

These are the type of fibers that Nick was referring

to in his discussion.

This 800 m effort will also produce a great deal of H

ions which need to be buffered and a large amount of

lactate which needs to be cleared as well as require

an increased Oxygen delivery capacity. This in part

gets back to the discussion we have had in the past

two weeks concerning buffering capacity and lactate.

The conversion of IIB fibers to IIA fibers takes time

and the proper training stimulus. This is were the

proper interval training on the track as well as the

hill running that alluded to comes into play.

The intervals and hill climbing, if done properly are

very taxing on your system as well as requiring a

great deal of energy. Six weeks may not be enough

time to allow all your newly acquired IIB fibers to

adapt and transform themselves into IIA fibers.

Besides transforming you muscle fibers you also have

to increase your hearts capacity to pump more blood to

your muscles. You also have to upgrade your vascular

system to handle the increase cardiac output as well

as the capillary system to deliver the increase blood

volume to these muscles.

You have to increase the buffering capacity both

inside the muscle fibers as well as in the blood

stream. Only the proper training regime will do this.

Resistance training with its short work intervals (1

min or less for a set of 8- 10 reps) and long rest

intervals (2-3) minutes does not require a large

buffering capacity nor does it require and large

cardiac output and the IIB fibers have relatively

fewer capillaries.

You mention the Tabata protocol in the gym. If I

understand the protocol correctly from my reading, it

is designed to improve aerobic capacity and probably

should best be incorporated on the track and not the

gym.

After a very good warm up (10+ minutes- or until you

have worked up a good sweat), you run for 20 seconds

(150 + meters) recover for 10 and repeat this x 8 for

a total of 4 minutes then cool down for 10 minutes.

If you are unable to complete 8 sets, this indicates

that you started out to fast. Your last rep should

be just as fast if not faster than your first rep.

This type of work will produce a tremendous amount of

lactate, put tremendous strain on you cardiovascular

as well as pulmonary system, as well as tax you

buffering capacity.

This should be done at the end of you daily training

and preferably before a rest day. Initially this

should be done once a week.

This is just one of many different types of interval

training that can be used to transform you IIB fibers

to IIA fibers. Your coach probably has many other

types of intervals in his arsenal.

While working out in the gym may seem to make sense it

is important to remember that any energy expended in

the gym is energy not available for track work. Any

muscle fibers (IIB) built through resistance training

is useless to an 800 meter runner unless the majority

are converted to IIA fibers.

As a college student you must have many other things

to do besides train and recover. During your pre-race

period and during your racing season you have to train

smart and learn to allocate your precious energy and

time to your primary goal, in this case improving your

800 meter time and not your lifting strength.

You state that you do not have the benefit of a coach

who both trains runners and knows how to train you in

resistance training. You have the benefit of 's

advice who obviously has been training as a runner for

years and has experience in the gym.

As alluded, there is no consensus in the running

field concerning the role of strength training. The

same can be said for swimming, cycling and rowing.

Individuals whose primary focus is resistance training

will argue that this type of training can benefit any

sport and some will say the heavier the lifting the

greater the benefit.

Ask them why they don't take up running to improve

their lifting. The reason is they are afraid that

they will convert their powerful IIB fibers to IIA

fibers and in the process of gaining endurance lose

some strength.

So much for my two cents. Two cents doesn't buy much

these days.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct USA

..

> I am a 400/800 type guy. Although it is true that I

> need a certain

> amount of mileage, too much will kill me

> results.This summer, I did

> 25 miles a week on the road,and it absolulely was

> somewhat of a

> detriment to my progress.Although I had better

> aerobic capacity, I

> had lost a great bit of speed. This was evident as I

> am a 48 sec 400m

> runner and I could only mustard 53 seconds at the

> beginning of

> october.I am just now getting my speed back.

>

> Something else to remember is I am still mainly a

> 400 hurdler. I am

> running the 800 indoors to help the last 200 meters

> of my race for

> the 400 hurdles. I think understood it as I

> only run the 800 and

> I am sorry if I was unclear about that. You post is

> not at all harsh

> as I am learning just as you are.

> This situation is difficult for me because my

> college doesnt not have

> a coach conditioned in this area of running and

> lifting and most of

> the athletes have to come up with their own strength

> and conditioning

> programs. In my case is could be hit or miss because

> I never know if

> Im doing the right thing. But In my humble opinion I

> believe the

> strength I have built up needs to be maintained as

> last year, I had a

> training partner who lifting like he ran the 100

> meters and he was

> about to run 1:52 for the 800 meters. My genetics

> and body type may

> be different but what is the point of building great

> deals of

> strength and power and not using it if can

> beneficial. The power lies

> in my situation is to balance the two without much

> weight gain as I

> am very very prone to weight gain.

>

> Those are just my two cents. Here is my program form

> the week it will

> allow everyone to see what I am doing. Heated debate

> is the only way

> to get to the truth of close to it, so keep

> everything coming.

>

> Monday January 14th

>

> Hang Clean and Jerk at 140lbs 3 reps and 5 sets

> Back squats x 5 at 275lbs,4 at 280lbs,3 at 285lbs,3

> at 290lbs,2 at

> 295lbs.

> Dumbell Bench Press 5 reps x 3 sets with 80lbs

> dumbells

> Dumbell Lat Row 6 reps x 3 sets with 65lbs dumbells.

>

> Wednesday January 16th

> Power snatch + overhead squat 3reps x 5 sets at

> 115lbs

> Barbell Bench Press 3reps x 5 sets a 190 lbs

> Good Mornings 5reps x5sets at 150 lbs

> Lat Pull Down 6x4

>

> I know I lift a little heavier than must 800 runners

> but is just a

> natural things for me. I havent really stopped

> making progress and I

> am not really gaining weight. So you guys can pick

> that apart. I

> appreciate the criticism.

>

> .Archield

> Tampa,Florida USA

>

> >

> > Hi

> >

> > Thanks for this post, I guess be specific is the

> lesson here, I

> take your

> > point. Being some one who only ever sprinted

> about 60m to score on

> an

> > interception, I don't always get the middle and

> long distance

> stuff. Rugby

> > players are very different to this despite needing

> to sustain high

> intensity

> > sprints for about 90 seconds (probability of

> scoring peaks at about

> 90

> > seconds of possession). My coach used to train a

> top level (South

> African

> > champion standard) boxer also and again we adapted

> from the

> traditional road

> > training for him to short sprints (50 m) timed for

> 3 minute round

> with and

> > gym work as the mainstay - of course they went to

> the boxing

> coaches for

> > technical training. The problem with a sample of

> one is that the

> athlete may

> > just be a dam good fighter irrespective of what we

> did, yet when he

> went to

> > one off to one of the top fight trainers and back

> to traditional

> road work

> > training he seemed to lack the thrust and power

> and his career

> tapered

> > off. I was trying to use that experience

> (learning from other) and

> apply

> > this to 's situation. The problem is always

> making sure that

> the

> > athlete is progressing optimally and would

> have to judge that

> for

> > himself.

> >

> > Best Regards

> > Nick Tatalias

> > Johannesburg

> > South Africa

>

January 17, 2008

Hey ,

I probably misunderstood your program. I see that you're mainly a 400

hurdler. (Too much info, too little time to absorb everything.)

And by the look of those numbers in your workout schedule . . . man,

you'll never run a good 800. You need to lose some muscle! <g>

Keep up the experimentation.

Regards,

Gympie, Australia

> >

> > Hi

> >

> > Thanks for this post, I guess be specific is the lesson here, I

> take your

> > point. Being some one who only ever sprinted about 60m to score

on

> an

> > interception, I don't always get the middle and long distance

> stuff. Rugby

> > players are very different to this despite needing to sustain high

> intensity

> > sprints for about 90 seconds (probability of scoring peaks at

about

> 90

> > seconds of possession). My coach used to train a top level (South

> African

> > champion standard) boxer also and again we adapted from the

> traditional road

> > training for him to short sprints (50 m) timed for 3 minute round

> with and

> > gym work as the mainstay - of course they went to the boxing

> coaches for

> > technical training. The problem with a sample of one is that the

> athlete may

> > just be a dam good fighter irrespective of what we did, yet when

he

> went to

> > one off to one of the top fight trainers and back to traditional

> road work

> > training he seemed to lack the thrust and power and his career

> tapered

> > off. I was trying to use that experience (learning from other)

and

> apply

> > this to 's situation. The problem is always making sure that

> the

> > athlete is progressing optimally and would have to judge

that

> for

> > himself.

> >

> > Best Regards

> > Nick Tatalias

> > Johannesburg

> > South Africa

>

January 17, 2008

Hi

Or gain equivalent strength endurance so that the power to weight ratio is

the same as losing muscle. Easier to get power or lose weight?

Regards

Nick Tatalias

Johanesburg

>

> Hey ,

>

> I probably misunderstood your program. I see that you're mainly a 400

> hurdler. (Too much info, too little time to absorb everything.)

>

> And by the look of those numbers in your workout schedule . . . man,

> you'll never run a good 800. You need to lose some muscle! <g>

>

> Keep up the experimentation.

>

> Regards,

>

> Gympie, Australia

>

> > >

> > > Hi

> > >

> > > Thanks for this post, I guess be specific is the lesson here, I

> > take your

> > > point. Being some one who only ever sprinted about 60m to score

> on

> > an

> > > interception, I don't always get the middle and long distance

> > stuff. Rugby

> > > players are very different to this despite needing to sustain high

> > intensity

> > > sprints for about 90 seconds (probability of scoring peaks at

> about

> > 90

> > > seconds of possession). My coach used to train a top level (South

> > African

> > > champion standard) boxer also and again we adapted from the

> > traditional road

> > > training for him to short sprints (50 m) timed for 3 minute round

> > with and

> > > gym work as the mainstay - of course they went to the boxing

> > coaches for

> > > technical training. The problem with a sample of one is that the

> > athlete may

> > > just be a dam good fighter irrespective of what we did, yet when

> he

> > went to

> > > one off to one of the top fight trainers and back to traditional

> > road work

> > > training he seemed to lack the thrust and power and his career

> > tapered

> > > off. I was trying to use that experience (learning from other)

> and

> > apply

> > > this to 's situation. The problem is always making sure that

> > the

> > > athlete is progressing optimally and would have to judge

> that

> > for

> > > himself.

> > >

> > > Best Regards

> > > Nick Tatalias

> > > Johannesburg

> > > South Africa

> >

>

January 17, 2008

Hi Ralph

Can I be in on this money racket you have what with the exchange rate 2c

might come in handy :-)

Came across this sentence in the Essentials of Strength Training and

Conditioning.

" The increase in aerobic capacity of skeletal muscle that occurs after

aerobic endurance training is experienced by both fast and slow twitch

muscle fibres. Slow twitch fibres have an inherently higher aerobic

capacity than fast twitch fibres and are preferentially recruited during

aerobic activity. However, if the intensity is sufficient, as in repeat

800-m intervals, fast twitch fibres (especially type IIb fibres) also make a

significant contribution to the effort. Under such conditions, their

aerobic capacity also increases with training. "

This has me thinking about the following,

1. Type IIb muscle is used in 800m high intensity activities, if they are

trained their contribution can be the difference maker.

2. Although aerobic type training interferes with strength development

compared to strength development on its own, both can be developed overtime

and if ultimate strength is not your goal then it is worth trying. If type

IIb muscle improve their endurance function, then instead of reducing the

amount of myosin as you suggest, perhaps appropriate training may

increase mitochondrial function or intracellular removal of H+ through

lactate, and carbonate systems may be achieved which leaves the thicker

myosin to execute highly forceful and strong exhibits of strength that may

be required for later 400m hurdles.

3. If running 800m intervals improves this functioning then , by by

running the 800m indoor season, may have intuitively chosen the correct

training for his 400m hurdles which requires fast twitch muscle to endure to

the end of the race to come off the hurdles and accelerate. It seems that

this is the area of concern for .

4. Some Rugby players may be running 800m intervals soon :-)

I agree that appropriate training intervals may be better than lifting, but

I am still struck by the Weyand Study and the demonstration that

strength improves top speed running. However to increase explosive endurance

if such a concept exists, I have used in the past is to do an 80% of 1RM max

clean every 30 seconds for 15 to 20 minutes (time is set before I start)

that is 31 or 41 reps. This does not give the muscles time to recover

properly but the weight is significantly challenging to clean or explode

that you must use type IIb muscles also. This type of workout though should

be kept to off season or pre-season as it can compromise your running. Well

it will compromise mine but then I'm not in the kind of shape that allows

for that kind of concurrent training.

In a completely separate discussion with one of the trainees in our gym, who

has accompanied expeditions to Everest and to some high Andean mountains as

the medical doctor, as well as many trips to Kilimanjaro (the highest

mountain in Africa). His comment was that it seems that marathon trained

runners seemed to struggle more with altitude than other people (no studies

anecdotal). I speculate it is because of the lack of oxygen the slow twitch

muscles are not able to deal with anaerobic conditions and suffer. People

trained for high intensity have bodies better able to deal with the

anaerobic environment at altitude. Why do I mention this, I am speculating

that high intensity intervals may develop not only type IIa muscle fibres

but type IIb also. The Tabata (weight training) protocols not only develop

aerobic capacity but anaerobic capacity and power, and whether its on track,

with hills, with weight vest or in the gym, may be worth including in the

training. I would suggest that in 's case running lots of miles may

not be useful.

Comments?

Best Regards

Nick Tatalias

Johannesburg

South Africa

>

> --- itsmeyoungb <howmanyukno@... <howmanyukno%40aol.com>> wrote:

>

> > Ok..Let me try to throw my two cents in...

>

> , I would also like to add two cents of my own to

> this interesting dialogue.

>

> I do agree with 's assessment and his suggestions.

> I have no experience in coaching runners however I do

> have extensive experience in coaching cyclists.

>

> I have never been one to accept on blind faith a

> training regimen of any kind without asking the

> question " why " should this work better than some other

> regimen.

>

> One of the biggest problems I came across frequently,

> while coaching cyclists, was athletes who did a lot of

> hard training but very little " smart " training.

>

> Many of the cyclists put in a lot of miles every week

> with little benefit because they were not riding the

> miles with a purpose. They putting in a lot of miles

> because that was what the professional riders were

> doing but there was no rhyme or reason to their

> program.

>

> The same can be said for weight training and running.

> lots of running and lots of lifting does not guarantee

> faster times unless there is specific goals within the

> training.

>

> You have done a lot of work over the past months

> building your strength through weight lifting. Now

> you have to convert that lifting strength into running

> strength.

>

> I have always found it best to break down an activity

> into its components and try to analyze how to best

> improve the various components and have them work well

> together.

>

> I would like to first analyze your strength regimen.

> When you did your lifting or squatting you probably

> used relatively heavy weights with which you were able

> to perform 3-4 sets of 8-12 reps each.

>

> Each set took about 1 minute or less and you rested

> about 2-3 minutes between sets. That makes for a

> total of 36-48 reps of a particular activity over

> 10-12 minutes per session.

>

> Now lets take a look at how you plan on using this

> strength. You are going to run 800 meters as fast as

> you can.

>

> I have no idea how long an average stride is when

> running a 800 meter race so I will, for the sake of

> this discussion, estimate that you will have to take

> 350-500 strides from start to finish. That is 350-500

> reps in about 2 minutes.

>

> Nothing you did in the gym can replicate this

> activity.

>

> Now lets take a peek into the muscles you have

> produced with all that work. Your resistance training

> helped you develop a lot of large Type IIB fibers

> which contain very few mitochondria. Great for short

> powerful efforts but easily fatigued.

>

> What do you need in order to perform 350-500 reps in

> two minutes. Lots of Type IIA fibers loaded with

> glucose burning mitochondria. To accommodate these

> mitochondria the cell needs to sacrifice some

> intracellular fibrils (thus sacrificing some

> strength).

>

> These are the type of fibers that Nick was referring

> to in his discussion.

>

> This 800 m effort will also produce a great deal of H

> ions which need to be buffered and a large amount of

> lactate which needs to be cleared as well as require

> an increased Oxygen delivery capacity. This in part

> gets back to the discussion we have had in the past

> two weeks concerning buffering capacity and lactate.

>

> The conversion of IIB fibers to IIA fibers takes time

> and the proper training stimulus. This is were the

> proper interval training on the track as well as the

> hill running that alluded to comes into play.

>

> The intervals and hill climbing, if done properly are

> very taxing on your system as well as requiring a

> great deal of energy. Six weeks may not be enough

> time to allow all your newly acquired IIB fibers to

> adapt and transform themselves into IIA fibers.

>

> Besides transforming you muscle fibers you also have

> to increase your hearts capacity to pump more blood to

> your muscles. You also have to upgrade your vascular

> system to handle the increase cardiac output as well

> as the capillary system to deliver the increase blood

> volume to these muscles.

>

> You have to increase the buffering capacity both

> inside the muscle fibers as well as in the blood

> stream. Only the proper training regime will do this.

>

> Resistance training with its short work intervals (1

> min or less for a set of 8- 10 reps) and long rest

> intervals (2-3) minutes does not require a large

> buffering capacity nor does it require and large

> cardiac output and the IIB fibers have relatively

> fewer capillaries.

>

> You mention the Tabata protocol in the gym. If I

> understand the protocol correctly from my reading, it

> is designed to improve aerobic capacity and probably

> should best be incorporated on the track and not the

> gym.

>

> After a very good warm up (10+ minutes- or until you

> have worked up a good sweat), you run for 20 seconds

> (150 + meters) recover for 10 and repeat this x 8 for

> a total of 4 minutes then cool down for 10 minutes.

>

> If you are unable to complete 8 sets, this indicates

> that you started out to fast. Your last rep should

> be just as fast if not faster than your first rep.

>

> This type of work will produce a tremendous amount of

> lactate, put tremendous strain on you cardiovascular

> as well as pulmonary system, as well as tax you

> buffering capacity.

>

> This should be done at the end of you daily training

> and preferably before a rest day. Initially this

> should be done once a week.

>

> This is just one of many different types of interval

> training that can be used to transform you IIB fibers

> to IIA fibers. Your coach probably has many other

> types of intervals in his arsenal.

>

> While working out in the gym may seem to make sense it

> is important to remember that any energy expended in

> the gym is energy not available for track work. Any

> muscle fibers (IIB) built through resistance training

> is useless to an 800 meter runner unless the majority

> are converted to IIA fibers.

>

> As a college student you must have many other things

> to do besides train and recover. During your pre-race

> period and during your racing season you have to train

> smart and learn to allocate your precious energy and

> time to your primary goal, in this case improving your

> 800 meter time and not your lifting strength.

>

> You state that you do not have the benefit of a coach

> who both trains runners and knows how to train you in

> resistance training. You have the benefit of 's

> advice who obviously has been training as a runner for

> years and has experience in the gym.

>

> As alluded, there is no consensus in the running

> field concerning the role of strength training. The

> same can be said for swimming, cycling and rowing.

>

> Individuals whose primary focus is resistance training

> will argue that this type of training can benefit any

> sport and some will say the heavier the lifting the

> greater the benefit.

>

> Ask them why they don't take up running to improve

> their lifting. The reason is they are afraid that

> they will convert their powerful IIB fibers to IIA

> fibers and in the process of gaining endurance lose

> some strength.

>

> So much for my two cents. Two cents doesn't buy much

> these days.

>

> Ralph Giarnella MD

> Southington Ct USA

> .

>

> > I am a 400/800 type guy. Although it is true that I

> > need a certain

> > amount of mileage, too much will kill me

> > results.This summer, I did

> > 25 miles a week on the road,and it absolulely was

> > somewhat of a

> > detriment to my progress.Although I had better

> > aerobic capacity, I

> > had lost a great bit of speed. This was evident as I

> > am a 48 sec 400m

> > runner and I could only mustard 53 seconds at the

> > beginning of

> > october.I am just now getting my speed back.

> >

> > Something else to remember is I am still mainly a

> > 400 hurdler. I am

> > running the 800 indoors to help the last 200 meters

> > of my race for

> > the 400 hurdles. I think understood it as I

> > only run the 800 and

> > I am sorry if I was unclear about that. You post is

> > not at all harsh

> > as I am learning just as you are.

>

> > This situation is difficult for me because my

> > college doesnt not have

> > a coach conditioned in this area of running and

> > lifting and most of

> > the athletes have to come up with their own strength

> > and conditioning

> > programs. In my case is could be hit or miss because

> > I never know if

> > Im doing the right thing. But In my humble opinion I

> > believe the

> > strength I have built up needs to be maintained as

> > last year, I had a

> > training partner who lifting like he ran the 100

> > meters and he was

> > about to run 1:52 for the 800 meters. My genetics

> > and body type may

> > be different but what is the point of building great

> > deals of

> > strength and power and not using it if can

> > beneficial. The power lies

> > in my situation is to balance the two without much

> > weight gain as I

> > am very very prone to weight gain.

> >

> > Those are just my two cents. Here is my program form

> > the week it will

> > allow everyone to see what I am doing. Heated debate

> > is the only way

> > to get to the truth of close to it, so keep

> > everything coming.

> >

> > Monday January 14th

> >

> > Hang Clean and Jerk at 140lbs 3 reps and 5 sets

> > Back squats x 5 at 275lbs,4 at 280lbs,3 at 285lbs,3

> > at 290lbs,2 at

> > 295lbs.

> > Dumbell Bench Press 5 reps x 3 sets with 80lbs

> > dumbells

> > Dumbell Lat Row 6 reps x 3 sets with 65lbs dumbells.

> >

> > Wednesday January 16th

> > Power snatch + overhead squat 3reps x 5 sets at

> > 115lbs

> > Barbell Bench Press 3reps x 5 sets a 190 lbs

> > Good Mornings 5reps x5sets at 150 lbs

> > Lat Pull Down 6x4

> >

> > I know I lift a little heavier than must 800 runners

> > but is just a

> > natural things for me. I havent really stopped

> > making progress and I

> > am not really gaining weight. So you guys can pick

> > that apart. I

> > appreciate the criticism.

> >

> > .Archield

> > Tampa,Florida USA

> >

> > >

> > > Hi

> > >

> > > Thanks for this post, I guess be specific is the

> > lesson here, I

> > take your

> > > point. Being some one who only ever sprinted

> > about 60m to score on

> > an

> > > interception, I don't always get the middle and

> > long distance

> > stuff. Rugby

> > > players are very different to this despite needing

> > to sustain high

> > intensity

> > > sprints for about 90 seconds (probability of

> > scoring peaks at about

> > 90

> > > seconds of possession). My coach used to train a

> > top level (South

> > African

> > > champion standard) boxer also and again we adapted

> > from the

> > traditional road

> > > training for him to short sprints (50 m) timed for

> > 3 minute round

> > with and

> > > gym work as the mainstay - of course they went to

> > the boxing

> > coaches for

> > > technical training. The problem with a sample of

> > one is that the

> > athlete may

> > > just be a dam good fighter irrespective of what we

> > did, yet when he

> > went to

> > > one off to one of the top fight trainers and back

> > to traditional

> > road work

> > > training he seemed to lack the thrust and power

> > and his career

> > tapered

> > > off. I was trying to use that experience

> > (learning from other) and

> > apply

> > > this to 's situation. The problem is always

> > making sure that

> > the

> > > athlete is progressing optimally and would

> > have to judge that

> > for

> > > himself.

> > >

> > > Best Regards

> > > Nick Tatalias

> > > Johannesburg

> > > South Africa

> >

>

January 17, 2008