RE: Negative Only - Eccentric Training

[Guest guest]

I tried negatives only for a time but they made me very sore and were not apt

for my sport (cycling), as they seem best for using supra-max weights (>100% of

max). Further, cycling is an almost completely concentric movement (very small

eccentric aspect when out of the saddle).

Best,

Bill Black

Cumberland Foreside, Maine

================================

Negative Only - Eccentric Training

I am very busy and experimenting with ways to develop maximum muscle mass and

strength with the least amount of training time. I am not a power-lifter - so

demonstrating strength is not part of the issue.

I have had good success using drop sets and Dan 's Max Stimulation (20

rep sets with heavy weights and a brief rest between each rep).

Now I am ready to experiment with negative only (eccentric training). Does

anyone in our group have experience with this type of training. Any advice would

be appreciated.

=============================

[Guest guest]

Bill et al,

Check this out.

http://www.eccentron.com/images/eccFAQ.html

They are getting great results eccentric training with elderly.

Ed White

Sandwich, MA USA

=========================

Black wrote:

I tried negatives only for a time but they made me very sore and were

not apt for my sport (cycling), as they seem best for using supra-max weights

(>100% of max). Further, cycling is an almost completely concentric movement

(very small eccentric aspect when out of the saddle).

Best,

Bill Black

Cumberland Foreside, Maine

================================

Negative Only - Eccentric Training

I am very busy and experimenting with ways to develop maximum muscle mass and

strength with the least amount of training time. I am not a power-lifter - so

demonstrating strength is not part of the issue.

I have had good success using drop sets and Dan 's Max Stimulation (20 rep

sets with heavy weights and a brief rest between each rep).

Now I am ready to experiment with negative only (eccentric training). Does

anyone in our group have experience with this type of training. Any advice would

be appreciated.

=============================

[Guest guest]

I am not sure to what extent increasing eccentric strength would help a cyclist.

However, since the majority of sports do have an eccentric component, eccentric

strength training should be incorporated into their training at time.  Yessis'

" Secrets of Soviet Sports Fitness and Training " mention that the Soviet devoted

15% of their training exclusively to eccentrics.

Jay Schroeder, strength coach with Evo Sport, utlizies altitude drops (eccentric

depth landings) as a means of increasing the strength and speed of his

athletes.  " In our (Schroeder's) system of training, learning how to absorb

force is paramount. It is the most important thing. "

Schroeder goes on to state,  " You have to be able to absorb force before you can

repel it. "  

Kerin's goes into one of the differnces between good and great jumps is

eccentric strength.   " What is the most direct means to achieve strength gains

specific to the demands of jumping

events? "  http://www.gillathletics.com/articles/news010203.pdf

Warren Frost with the Australian Strength And Conditioning Association's reseach

article on " Eccentric movement:... " is an excellent piece of work.

http://www.strengthandconditioning.org/dimages/Eccentric%20Training.pdf

Frost writes:

" " Improved size. Hypertrophy of muscle is one of the most commonly mentioned

advantages of eccentric exercise, the rationale for this is thought to be a

stimulation of growth through a greater process of breakdown. It is thought that

through this breakdown there is an increase in local growth factors (45).

Eccentric training is more effective than concentric training alone, possibly

the greater tension on the muscle contractile elements through eccentric action

combined with the greater protein degradation would promote a more positive

anabolic response (7, 24). Even in studies investigating the disadvantages of

eccentric exercise increases in cross sectional area of muscle are noted. " "

In regard to Bill's remark about being sore from eccentric work, the soreness

can be minimized. Like any new movement, some soreness will occur.  Thus, one

should ease into an eccentric program.

The problem is that the majority of athletes utilize loads greater than 100% of

their max when starting an eccentric program. 

Some research indicates that we are up to 50% stronger in an eccentric

movement than a concentrc contraction.

So, lifter believe that they can and should start off with supramaximal loads of

100% or  more than their concentric strength. This insures soreness just as it

would if you started off with a weight that was to heavy in a concentric

contraction. 

Also, who is capable of using a supramaximal eccentric load that is 50% great

than one's concentric contraction strength?

That would mean if you can perform a 300 lb concentric bench press, in theory,

you could lower 450 lbs (450 lbs being 50% more than your 300 lb bench press).

I doubt that much lowering wll take place.  450 lbs will end up falling like a

rock at some point.

From my personal experience with myself and other lifters,  even supramaximal

loads of 20% more than one's concentric strength push the limit.  A 300 lb bench

presser would utilzie 360 lbs (20% more than their 300 lb bench press) in an

eccentric bench press. 

Frost " Eccentric movements:... " article, see above, he states that he feels

supramaximal load of 10-20% are appropriate.  Frost recommentaions are somewhat

more realiztic. 

With that said, one should start out performing eccetrics with a load under 100%

of their 1RM concentric contraction strength, about 80% of 1RM.  Then increase

the load each week...working up to a supramaximal eccentric load.

Kenny Croxdale

Orange, CA

===================================

Re: Negative Only - Eccentric Training

Bill et al,

Check this out.

http://www.eccentron.com/images/eccFAQ.html

They are getting great results eccentric training with elderly.

Ed White

Sandwich, MA USA

=========================

Black wrote:

I tried negatives only for a time but they made me very sore and were not apt

for my sport (cycling), as they seem best for using supra-max weights (>100% of

max). Further, cycling is an almost completely concentric movement (very small

eccentric aspect when out of the saddle).

Best,

Bill Black

Cumberland Foreside, Maine

================================

Negative Only - Eccentric Training

I am very busy and experimenting with ways to develop maximum muscle mass and

strength with the least amount of training time. I am not a power-lifter - so

demonstrating strength is not part of the issue.

I have had good success using drop sets and Dan 's Max Stimulation (20 rep

sets with heavy weights and a brief rest between each rep).

Now I am ready to experiment with negative only (eccentric training). Does

anyone in our group have experience with this type of training. Any advice would

be appreciated.

=============================

[Guest guest]

Ed, I'd be a little leery of trusting a marketing site for, well a

cite, period.

But really - the goals elderly people who haven't trained much are

probably a little different than yours. And without even looking at

the site, during early stages of adaptation ANYTHING works. Pretty

much anything anyhow.

I'd consider eccentrics as a discrete training method, but I'd use

them sparingly. Dr. Siff has much information in Supertraining about

using supra-maximal methods. Give it a look. But I wouldn't base my

training - even if my goal was hypertrophy - on eccentrics.

Christian Thibaudeau wrote a series of articles for T-mag on pendulum

training, which incorporates a variety of methods including eccentric

focus. Also some articles on eccentrics. Dude is wicked smart.

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=574021

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459408

> Bill et al,

>

> Check this out.

>

> http://www.eccentron.com/images/eccFAQ.html

>

> They are getting great results eccentric training with elderly.

>

> Ed White

> Sandwich, MA USA

>

> =========================

>

> Black wrote:

> I tried negatives only for a time but they made me very sore and

> were not apt for my sport (cycling), as they seem best for using

> supra-max weights (>100% of max). Further, cycling is an almost

> completely concentric movement (very small eccentric aspect when

> out of the saddle).

>

> Best,

> Bill Black

> Cumberland Foreside, Maine

>

> ================================

> Negative Only - Eccentric Training

>

> I am very busy and experimenting with ways to develop maximum

> muscle mass and strength with the least amount of training time. I

> am not a power-lifter - so demonstrating strength is not part of

> the issue.

>

> I have had good success using drop sets and Dan 's Max

> Stimulation (20 rep sets with heavy weights and a brief rest

> between each rep).

>

> Now I am ready to experiment with negative only (eccentric

> training). Does anyone in our group have experience with this type

> of training. Any advice would be appreciated.

>

> =============================

>

>

>

Hobman

Saskatoon, Canada

[Guest guest]

Remember what was said, and shown via research, in the

earlier posts. Studies showing these issues you are

referring to are based mainly on research that was

conducted using maximumal or suprmaximal loads. If

you're reference to " negatives " is implying the use of

maximal or supramaximal loads (which I believe we

should be using to define it in this post) then you

are correct. However, " eccentric " training is done in

every program unless a program was designed to

specifically avoid it. I have trained with Jay

Schroeder of Evo-Sport, who was mentioned earlier in

the posts on this topic, and what he employs in

regards to eccentric training is both extremely

effective and very inline with some of the research

that has been posted in regards to this topic. If any

of you would like to know more about some of these

methods let me know.

Chad Scheitel, MA, CSCS

Minneapolis, MN

--- phillip g wrote:

> Negative only training IMO is not a good choice.

> Implementing negatives into your training program

> can be an effective to bust through (or prevent)

> plateaus in training, but it is only part of a

> program. Excessive eccentric training can put alot

> of strain on the muscles, and support tissues of the

> body, as well as impairing your CNS ability to

> coordinate concentric and eccentric coordination. I

> would implement negatives, but only for short

> periods.

>

> Sincerely,

> Garrison CSCS*D

> [Mod: Please don't forget to sign your posts with

> your full name, city and country of residence - many

> thanks]

>

> ====================

>

> To: Supertraining@...:

> our_beautiful_minds@...: Tue, 8 Jan 2008

> 00:34:52 +0000Subject: Re: Negative

> Only - Eccentric Training

>

> >> I am very busy and

> experimenting with ways to develop maximum muscle

> mass and strength with the least amount of training

> time. I am not a power-lifter - so demonstrating

> strength is not part of the issue.> > I have had

> good success using drop sets and Dan 's Max

> Stimulation (20 rep sets with heavy weights and a

> brief rest between each rep).> > Now I am ready to

> experiment with negative only (eccentric training).

> Does anyone in our group have experience with this

> type of training. Any advice would be appreciated.>

> > Thanks,> > Ed White> Sandwich, MA USA>Negative

> only training is an entirely different skill. When

> you can no longer control the " lowering " , that is

> considered failure in most HIT circles. On some

> exercises, that could be dangerous so pick exercises

> wisely and have training partners if possible. Your

> partners will help you get into the " top position "

> on many exercises. Dips and chins seem to work well

> if no partner is available. Lower body training can

> be a problem like this unless you have access to

> equipment made for it like Eccentic Edge. Your one

> rep max in an exercise(using conventional reps) may

> prove to be the weight you use for Negative only

> training. It depends on the number of reps you are

> shooting for but don't be surprised if you get 7 or

> more reps negative only style with your one rep max.

> How many seconds you lower in at the outset is up to

> you but as the set progresses, you will be doing all

> you can to simply stop the weight from dropping as

> fatigue sets in. It is my preference to lower in

> about 4 seconds for most exercises. I terminate the

> set before the point is reached when I can't control

> the lowering. When I believe it is going to become

> dangerous, I stop. Again, it's a skill. The DOMS

> experienced from Negative Only Training must be

> experienced to truly be appreciated so be careful.

> Quinn ksonMilwaukee WI

>

> ================================

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I thought I was the only one that shouted that:)

Brett

Draper, UT

> Hi Ed

>

> On forced reps normally the lifter lowers the weight (eccentric training)

> and is assisted to lift the weight -(while his buddy shouts its all you

> its

> all you :-) ) . It would appear to be somewhat relevant to eccentric

> training.

>

> Regards

> Nick Tatalias

> Johannesburg

> South Africa

>

[Guest guest]

Hello !

, do you know of any methods used by Jay Shroeder and if you do could you

coment on 1-5 minute static holds and or isometrics that I have read about him

using. This may have already been answered in other posts?

Doug Fairbanks

ton, SC

To: Supertraining@...: bioforce.inc@...: Thu, 10 Jan

2008 11:14:36 -0800Subject: Negative Only - Eccentric Training

Casler writes:It is very difficult to make hard fast statements about

eccentric elements in our training applications.While we speak as if all the

contractile actions are distinctly separated, in fact in application, they are

not.They are all the product of muscular activation, but concentric is pertinent

to sliding filament action (shortening) while static and eccentric are products

of the breaking of actin myosin bonds or " allowing " those bonds to relax or

detach.That said, in application these elements merge into the dynamics of the

specific action, along with other affecting elements like the use of the elastic

components.So what we have is a transitioning complex of muscle actions that are

modulated and initiated by the CNS via feedback and sensory components, as well

as command components.So when we view or discuss the properties of eccentric

loadings to create the stimulus we need be totally aware of the combination of

how these " loads " and " muscle tension " against them will create them.So that

end, it is clearly significant to know that the eccentric action, in normal

training is always " underloaded " to its capacity. That is, we are always limited

to the load which we can used in the sliding filament (weaker) muscle

action.Muscle action could have evolved no other way, or else we would be

damaging muscles on a regular basis. As it is, it is rare to have muscle damage

from tension/force training of any significance from concentric action since the

muscle cells are not normally able to commit suicide by sliding filament

action.Of additional significance, is the fact that the " recruitment " of MU's

during the eccentric action is " adjusted " to suit the force load presented. This

however is far different than the recruitment during concentric sliding filament

action. In sliding filament action, a greater number of MU's are activated until

the load is overcome.In eccentric actions, the MU activation distribution is far

less, due to the greater efficiency of the act of braking compared to the motor

act of shortening. This difference produces a lower Motor Signal, and fewer MU's

are used to control the load/force. This then is why the muscle damage occurs

until the (SAID) stimulus had caused the adaptive response to that load.So what

do we learn from this? Well some would suggest a " slower " lowering of the

eccentric load, to somehow capitalize on the aspect of fewer MU's handling the

load, but in fact, that then has a tendency to " reduce " the tension, by reducing

the " load " seen by the muscle.In a perfect world, (for some applications) the

load would automatically increase to close to eccentric capability, and the

ultimate load and speed would be that which allows us to produce the greatest

force against the load.This is but an impossible task under mass/weight based

loads for many reasons, and again because we are underloaded to the eccentric to

begin with.Dynamic weight loads to the rescue. In the science of Strength

Training, there are many parameters to which some swear and others wave away.As

you or your trainee " learn " the proprioceptive abilities you might have, you

quickly find that creating accelerations (both negative and positive) have a

function to the actual load experience. This means " if " we are looking to load

the eccentric with loads that move closer to the capabilities of the action, and

also those which can create the right speed of the action to cause a more

effective SSC (Stretch Shortening Cycle) then " allowing " a controlled

acceleration to acheive that force in the desired ROM of the eccentric action

will provide significant result.This is the primary principle in " plyo or mio "

metrics.So as athletes, coaches and trainers, we need to understand how and when

to implement these training elements toward the goal, and in a safe controlled

manner.If I have to make a blanket statement that might sound a little

outrageous initially, I might state that great strength and speed are totally

limited to the proper used and safe implementation of eccentric loadings. Given

the fact that concentric strength is simply governed by the strength of the

motor impulse, the benefits of progressively strengthening the muscle tissue

itself will be enhanced by more accurately loading and training the eccentric

component.All that said, we have the task of discovering methods to train this

component, as well as how to adjust for the increased severity of the stimulus

so as to not create over-reaching or overtraining, or even worse, injury.But to

close, it is valuable for those who are interested, to know that to create the

greatest stimulus to the concentric action, the actions MUST be performed in a

way that maximizes the creation of the greatest MU recruitment, and CNS motor

signal during the action. This will normally involve (with well selected loads)

the implementation of speed/load combinations that allow maximum efforts against

the load (accelerations) while not exceeding terminal velocity (that velocity

where the speed exceeds the speed at which a muscle can shorten via sliding

filament action)In the eccentric, we want a load and speed that will allow the

maximum tension also, but this will be based on a speed force relationship that

does not cause the actin/myosin forced detachments to not be able to create the

maximum (or desired) muscular tensions.And one final point. I have done much

eccentric training a work. I find little use for " Eccentric Only " training for

most purposes. The strength of the eccentric action lies in its contribution to

the concentric/eccentric - eccentric/concentric cycle, and how it contributes

force creation and MMMT (Momentary Maximum Muscle Tensions) that are then

applied to the elastic components and harvested during the transition to

concentric action. By training the eccentric only, (except for specific and

limited goals) I find that " breaking that link/transition " reduces the

functional effectiveness of the training.It must be recognized that there are NO

HARD FAST RULES that cover all training goals. You must apply the above

information to create the REP or REPS of your training sets.Regards,

CaslerTRI-VECTOR 3-D Force SystemsCentury City, CA

============================

[Guest guest]

Hey Chad,

Could you give specifics to where to find Jay Schroeder's eccentric training

methods?

Thanks

Best,

Darren Kong

Laguna Hills, CA/ Providence, RI

> ,

>

> I believe it might be of interest for you and others

> in this group, to check out " Jay " Schroeder (of

> EvoSport a.k.a UltraFit) and the training methods he

> employs. I believe the methods he employs take

> maximum advantage of all the things discussed here.

>

>

> " All that said, we have the task of discovering

> methods to train this component, as well as how to

> adjust for the increased severity of the stimulus so

> as to not create over-reaching or overtraining, or

> even worse, injury. "

>

> Once you have learned about the methods he employs I

> believe you will see how he trains this component

> better than any other and still manages to not

> overtrain and avoid injury.

>

> Chad Scheitel, MA, CSCS

> Minneapolis, MN

>

> --- Casler <bioforce.inc@... <bioforce.inc%40gte.net>> wrote:

>

> > Casler writes:

> >

> > It is very difficult to make hard fast statements

> > about eccentric elements

> > in our training applications.

> >

> > While we speak as if all the contractile actions are

> > distinctly separated,

> > in fact in application, they are not.

> >

> > They are all the product of muscular activation, but

> > concentric is pertinent

> > to sliding filament action (shortening) while static

> > and eccentric are

> > products of the breaking of actin myosin bonds or

> > " allowing " those bonds to

> > relax or detach.

> >

> > That said, in application these elements merge into

> > the dynamics of the

> > specific action, along with other affecting elements

> > like the use of the

> > elastic components.

> >

> > So what we have is a transitioning complex of muscle

> > actions that are

> > modulated and initiated by the CNS via feedback and

> > sensory components, as

> > well as command components.

> >

> > So when we view or discuss the properties of

> > eccentric loadings to create

> > the stimulus we need be totally aware of the

> > combination of how these

> > " loads " and " muscle tension " against them will

> > create them.

> >

> > So that end, it is clearly significant to know that

> > the eccentric action, in

> > normal training is always " underloaded " to its

> > capacity. That is, we are

> > always limited to the load which we can used in the

> > sliding filament

> > (weaker) muscle action.

> >

> > Muscle action could have evolved no other way, or

> > else we would be damaging

> > muscles on a regular basis. As it is, it is rare to

> > have muscle damage from

> > tension/force training of any significance from

> > concentric action since the

> > muscle cells are not normally able to commit suicide

> > by sliding filament

> > action.

> >

> > Of additional significance, is the fact that the

> > " recruitment " of MU's

> > during the eccentric action is " adjusted " to suit

> > the force load presented.

> > This however is far different than the recruitment

> > during concentric sliding

> > filament action. In sliding filament action, a

> > greater number of MU's are

> > activated until the load is overcome.

> >

> > In eccentric actions, the MU activation distribution

> > is far less, due to the

> > greater efficiency of the act of braking compared to

> > the motor act of

> > shortening. This difference produces a lower Motor

> > Signal, and fewer MU's

> > are used to control the load/force. This then is

> > why the muscle damage

> > occurs until the (SAID) stimulus had caused the

> > adaptive response to that

> > load.

> >

> > So what do we learn from this? Well some would

> > suggest a " slower " lowering

> > of the eccentric load, to somehow capitalize on the

> > aspect of fewer MU's

> > handling the load, but in fact, that then has a

> > tendency to " reduce " the

> > tension, by reducing the " load " seen by the muscle.

> >

> > In a perfect world, (for some applications) the load

> > would automatically

> > increase to close to eccentric capability, and the

> > ultimate load and speed

> > would be that which allows us to produce the

> > greatest force against the

> > load.

> >

> > This is but an impossible task under mass/weight

> > based loads for many

> > reasons, and again because we are underloaded to the

> > eccentric to begin

> > with.

> >

> > Dynamic weight loads to the rescue. In the science

> > of Strength Training,

> > there are many parameters to which some swear and

> > others wave away.

> >

> > As you or your trainee " learn " the proprioceptive

> > abilities you might have,

> > you quickly find that creating accelerations (both

> > negative and positive)

> > have a function to the actual load experience. This

> > means " if " we are

> > looking to load the eccentric with loads that move

> > closer to the

> > capabilities of the action, and also those which can

> > create the right speed

> > of the action to cause a more effective SSC (Stretch

> > Shortening Cycle) then

> > " allowing " a controlled acceleration to acheive that

> > force in the desired

> > ROM of the eccentric action will provide significant

> > result.

> >

> > This is the primary principle in " plyo or mio "

> > metrics.

> >

> > So as athletes, coaches and trainers, we need to

> > understand how and when to

> > implement these training elements toward the goal,

> > and in a safe controlled

> > manner.

> >

> > If I have to make a blanket statement that might

> > sound a little outrageous

> > initially, I might state that great strength and

> > speed are totally limited

> > to the proper used and safe implementation of

> > eccentric loadings. Given the

> > fact that concentric strength is simply governed by

> > the strength of the

> > motor impulse, the benefits of progressively

> > strengthening the muscle tissue

> > itself will be enhanced by more accurately loading

> > and training the

> > eccentric component.

> >

> > All that said, we have the task of discovering

> > methods to train this

> > component, as well as how to adjust for the

> > increased severity of the

> > stimulus so as to not create over-reaching or

> > overtraining, or even worse,

> > injury.

> >

> > But to close, it is valuable for those who are

> > interested, to know that to

> > create the greatest stimulus to the concentric

> > action, the actions MUST be

> > performed in a way that maximizes the creation of

> > the greatest MU

> > recruitment, and CNS motor signal during the action.

> > This will normally

> > involve (with well selected loads) the

> > implementation of speed/load

> > combinations that allow maximum efforts against the

> > load (accelerations)

> > while not exceeding terminal velocity (that velocity

> > where the speed exceeds

> > the speed at which a muscle can shorten via sliding

> > filament action)

> >

> > In the eccentric, we want a load and speed that will

> > allow the maximum

> > tension also, but this will be based on a speed

> > force relationship that does

> > not cause the actin/myosin forced detachments to not

> > be able to create the

> > maximum (or desired) muscular tensions.

> >

> > And one final point. I have done much eccentric

> > training a work. I find

> > little use for " Eccentric Only " training for most

> > purposes. The strength of

> > the eccentric action lies in its contribution to the

> > concentric/eccentric -

> > eccentric/concentric cycle, and how it contributes

> > force creation and MMMT

> > (Momentary Maximum Muscle Tensions) that are then

> > applied to the elastic

> > components and harvested during the transition to

> > concentric action. By

> > training the eccentric only, (except for specific

> > and limited goals) I find

> > that " breaking that link/transition " reduces the

> > functional effectiveness of

> > the training.

> >

> > It must be recognized that there are NO HARD FAST

> > RULES that cover all

> > training goals. You must apply the above

> > information to create the REP or

> > REPS of your training sets.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Unfortunately, the best place to get specifics about

Jay and his training methodology is from him. He has

written very little, but they hold monthly seminars

either here in Minnesota at their Burnsville site or

down in Mesa, Arizona. For some additional

information you could check out www.arpwave.com, that

is their companies website. They have some things

about his training on there but they really focus more

on rehabilitation then on athletic performance. I

could go into a few things but really don't have a ton

of time right now to sit on here and write. But I

will give you an example of an exercise that would be

done during rehabilitation, or for people who have a

category 1 imbalance/alignment issue (which most

people tend to have). Using just your bodyweight get

into lunge position. Make sure to have both feet

pointing straight ahead and properly aligned keeping

the knee of the front leg directly over the ankle. On

the front foot all of your weight should be on the

ball of the foot but the heel should not leave the

ground (the foot should stay in a dorsiflexed

position). Make sure to extend your front hip as far

forward as possible while still keeping your body in

an upright position. The farther apart you space the

legs the better (but the harder). Now hold at the top

of the lunge for as long as you can (Goal time is 5

mins.). Do not allow yourself to lower quickly no

matter how hard it might get and avoid changing your

body position at all costs, you should constantly be

trying to push yourself up to the top. Failure is

either when you no longer keep proper body position

(this happens first for most people) or when your back

knee touches the floor. If you haven't reached 5

mins. yet, then you aren't done yet. Try to gather

yourself, take a few deep breaths and try to continue

holding at the top again. You are finished once you

have completed 5 mins. After that get fully recovered

(3-6 mins.) and then do it with the other leg forward.

Just so everyone looking at this knows this is only

one exercise and not an advanced level of trainiing,

but unless you are above a Level 1 (see Figure 3.35 on

page 186 of " Supertraining " ) you really shouldn't try

to start out with something more complex than this,

and unfortunately I have no idea of the training

levels of those viewing this. In addition most people

believe that they are at a much higher level than they

actually are anyway. Crazy thing about Jay is that he

can just observe people for a short period of time and

know what kind of issues they might have and know what

kind of level you might be at (many Soviet doctors

were known to be extremely good at this kind of thing,

Yessis talks about it in some of his literature).

Hope that helps you out a little Darren, I really wish

he had more things written (I will get on him about

that a little when I see him next). Only other thing

is the " Freak of Training " video, but that doesn't

really give you enough info to completely understand

and grasp his training methodologies.

Chad Scheitel, MA, CSCS

Minneapolis, MN

--- Darren Kong wrote:

> Hey Chad,

>

> Could you give specifics to where to find Jay

> Schroeder's eccentric training

> methods?

>

> Thanks

>

> Best,

> Darren Kong