Guest guest Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 The thread about HIT focused on a single set vs. multiple set debate. I would like to broaden that just a bit, comparing multiple set regimens. I'm not an exercise physiologist. However, my reading seems to suggest that with respect to both hypertrophy and strength development, more training is better except when it proceeds too fast, i.e., when an athlete's training load exceeds the capacity he/she has developed to that point. To clarify, I'm using " load " to mean (total number of repetitions) x (amount of weight lifted per repetition). Moreover, I'm assuming a certain level of common sense. Obviously, one can generate " load " in ways that are smart or not so smart. But consider the following: Zatsiorsky tells us that we make gains by forcing adaptation to greater loads. Bompa tells us that to generate the greatest hypertrophy, we need to handle the heaviest loads we can tolerate. On his website, Verkoshansky states that the volume of training loads achieved the limit of reasonableness. Today the professional athletes are training about 8 hours per day, 2-4 times during the day, near to 1,700 hours per year. It's quite impossible imagine any further increase of load volume. We should look for models that assure a most rational use of the training loads over the year cycle; today there is the tendency to increase the intensity of the training work to increase the effectiveness of the training process, especially for the top class athlete. This is an expedient that needs to be used very carefully according to the qualification of athletes, the level of their preparedness and the calendar of competitions. Similarly, Louie talks about his powerlifters working through 14 sessions per week. Granted, in terms of logic alone, the mere fact that " professional athletes are training about 8 hours per day " does not necessarily mean it's the best strategy. However, there is certainly serious evidence to suggest that many of the most knowledgeable and committed people think that very extensive training regimens are worthwhile. The message I get is that the best results are achieved when a well-prepared athlete, following a well-conceived, well-managed program, extends his training load as far as he can, commensurate with his level of preparedness. In contrast, I was reading a book by Ditillo, *The Development of Muscular Bulk and Power.* While " Ditillo " probably is not a household word, Ditillo certainly achieved extraordinary muscular development and strength. He worked out four times a week using basic multi-joint exercises (squat, deadlift, bench press, press, some curls). I would estimate that one of his workouts would take approximately an hour. Also, someone on the forum recently mentioned 's Max-Stimulation program, which involves a moderate load, certainly nothing like the 6-8 hours per day that many elite Olympic weightlifters, powerlifters, and bodybuilders adhere to. Yes, there are people with genetic gifts such that their strength and bulk increase when weights just come into their peripheral vision. But are there serious scientific arguments that explain why and under what conditions a workout like Ditillo's or 's produces equal or better results than a much more extensive regimen that involves a much heavier load? Pitruzzello, Ph.D. Chicago, IL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 A colleague of mine once said that the difference between a full time athlete and a part time athlete is not that the full time trains more, but that they recover more. A previous post has highlighted the concern regarding over reaching and overtraining, which is key. Over reaching should be viewed on a continuum. On one side is under developed, in the middle is optimum and the other side is over-training. Managing training intensity is a combination of active restoration, assessment of the holistic capabilities of the athlete (physical, emotional & psychological) and physical training. As previously stated that some athletes train 8 hours a day, what needs to be understood is the difference between being in training for 8 hours and training for 8 hours. For me that may include 2-3 hours of exercise (3 sessions), meal times and restoration activities. What we must consider is that whatever exercise is prescribed, it is valueless if what follows it is garbage. During an 8 hour training day there will peaks and troughs of player capabilities. Training sessions should be aimed at peak times. These sessions will then be interspersed with recovery activities (optimise adaptation to previous bout + maintain athletes ability to perform subsequent sessions) and meal times. Furthermore one must understand how one session will affect what is to follow, both in the short and intermediate days. For example, DOMS has been shown to peak 48 hours after a novel exercise which is predominantly eccentric in nature. Therefore, if you are aware of this, don't plan anything other than restoration in this period. Verkhohansky's work has discussed how to train multiple biomotor abilities at the same time. Zatsiorsky & Kraemer (2006) discussed how to calculate training load, not to mention the excellent chapter in Supertraining, the more intuitive programmers integrate some kind of qualitative measure into their planning progress. Siff discusses how RPE and ratings of technique have been used by Eastern European coaches in cybernetic planning. What I would say is that the very first exercise of the very first session you do with an athlete will be the only one that follows the plan you start with. Calculating the intensity of an exercise for an individual is a moment by moment process. Those in the UKSCA will have read an interesting piece by Ian s in a recent magazine regarding fatigue and recovery. In this he says, quite rightly, that performance is affected by the physical, emotional and psychological state of the athlete. Furthermore that problems in one domain will transfer to others, we see this everyday that athletes when tired concentrate less and find it hard to focus. This means that what an athlete can do in one session, physically, they may not in the next despite no loss of their physical attributes. Common to many athletes is an accumulation of psychological pressures to perform which then manifest in physical symptoms. In short, whilst you should always have a progressive plan established for an athlete, be aware of the state of that athlete and be able to accommodate that within the demands of the session. Mark Helme Wakefield, UK More About Load: How much is too much? The thread about HIT focused on a single set vs. multiple set debate. I would like to broaden that just a bit, comparing multiple set regimens. I'm not an exercise physiologist. However, my reading seems to suggest that with respect to both hypertrophy and strength development, more training is better except when it proceeds too fast, i.e., when an athlete's training load exceeds the capacity he/she has developed to that point. To clarify, I'm using " load " to mean (total number of repetitions) x (amount of weight lifted per repetition). Moreover, I'm assuming a certain level of common sense. Obviously, one can generate " load " in ways that are smart or not so smart. But consider the following: Zatsiorsky tells us that we make gains by forcing adaptation to greater loads. Bompa tells us that to generate the greatest hypertrophy, we need to handle the heaviest loads we can tolerate. On his website, Verkoshansky states that the volume of training loads achieved the limit of reasonableness. Today the professional athletes are training about 8 hours per day, 2-4 times during the day, near to 1,700 hours per year. It's quite impossible imagine any further increase of load volume. We should look for models that assure a most rational use of the training loads over the year cycle; today there is the tendency to increase the intensity of the training work to increase the effectiveness of the training process, especially for the top class athlete. This is an expedient that needs to be used very carefully according to the qualification of athletes, the level of their preparedness and the calendar of competitions. Similarly, Louie talks about his powerlifters working through 14 sessions per week. Granted, in terms of logic alone, the mere fact that " professional athletes are training about 8 hours per day " does not necessarily mean it's the best strategy. However, there is certainly serious evidence to suggest that many of the most knowledgeable and committed people think that very extensive training regimens are worthwhile. The message I get is that the best results are achieved when a well-prepared athlete, following a well-conceived, well-managed program, extends his training load as far as he can, commensurate with his level of preparedness. In contrast, I was reading a book by Ditillo, *The Development of Muscular Bulk and Power.* While " Ditillo " probably is not a household word, Ditillo certainly achieved extraordinary muscular development and strength. He worked out four times a week using basic multi-joint exercises (squat, deadlift, bench press, press, some curls). I would estimate that one of his workouts would take approximately an hour. Also, someone on the forum recently mentioned 's Max-Stimulation program, which involves a moderate load, certainly nothing like the 6-8 hours per day that many elite Olympic weightlifters, powerlifters, and bodybuilders adhere to. Yes, there are people with genetic gifts such that their strength and bulk increase when weights just come into their peripheral vision. But are there serious scientific arguments that explain why and under what conditions a workout like Ditillo's or 's produces equal or better results than a much more extensive regimen that involves a much heavier load? ====================================== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2008 Report Share Posted January 19, 2008 Mark, Excellent post. You've brought up several critical components of athlete development. Grenak, of the Hungarian Sport Science Institute, wrote of the importance of a holistic approach to athlete development over 25 years ago. He stated unequivocally,(I'm paraphrasing, it's been 25 years since I've read Grenak), that failure to be attentive to the three major components of training would cause the athlete to " inevitably destabilize " , which is a nice way of saying burn out, get hurt or give up. Grenak's 'formula': B + P + S = T B is Biological P is Psychological and S is Social and T is the Totality of those three components. For the last 25 years all my work with athletes has been based on Grenak's formula. Istvan Balyi was Grenak's protege. If you aren't familair with Balyi, he is famous for his comprehensive approach to long term training planning. You can check out his long term planning program at the National Coaching Institute, BC Canada. In an article " Long-Term Athlete Development: Trainability in Childhood and Adolescence " (Olympic Coach Magazine, Volume 16, Number 1, Spring 2004), internationally-recognized authors Istvan Balyi, Ph.D. and Ann Hamilton, MPE state the following: " Scientific research has concluded that it takes eight-to-twelve years for a talented player/athlete to reach elite levels. This is called the ten-year or 10,000 hour rule, which translates to slightly more than three hours of practice daily for ten years " (cson,et al.,1993; sson and Charness,1994, Bloom,1985; Salmela et. Al.,1998). This position, that it takes eight to twelve years to develop national level,(Olympic), athletes is the major reason that I've been trying to advance the use of Olympic Weightlifting as a major training modality for athletes in middle schools and prep schools for the last 20 years. Our Olympic athletes are often the result of good genetics and serendipity, as opposed to middle and prep schools providing kids with a better foundation in athletic development through the proper application of Olympic Weightlifting, plyometric and other superior training methods such as kettle bell training. The superiority of these methods in developing athleticism is the reason I get testy when it is suggested that machines can approach properly designed and executed free weight training programs in developing athletes, a rather unnecessary discussion taking place in another post in the forum. It has been noted that in other parts of the world it is a source of amusement amongst national level strength coaches that we are still having this machines vs free weights discussion 20 years on. The basic methodology of optimal athletic development is well understood. Getting these methods into the schools early enough to provide our kids with effective resistance training along with other methods of preparation to play sports and maintain parity with our competitors around the world is the limiting factor. A further explication of Balyi's position, in this case on the development of Weightlifters, can be found at Google search under the title: A PRACTICAL APPROACH TO TRAINING THE YOUTH WEIGHTLIFTING ATHLETE LONG-TERM GOALS, DEVELOPING ATHLECTICISM AND HAVING FUN Numerous other articles about Balyi's program and his work with people like Tudor Bompa can be readily found by doing a GOOGLE search using his name. Thanks for reintroducing the discussion of a critical element of training athletes to the forum, W.G. Ubermensch Sports Consultancy San Diego, CA. > > A colleague of mine once said that the difference between a full time > athlete and a part time athlete is not that the full time trains more, but > that they recover more. > > A previous post has highlighted the concern regarding over reaching and > overtraining, which is key. Over reaching should be viewed on a continuum. > On one side is under developed, in the middle is optimum and the other side > is over-training. > > Managing training intensity is a combination of active restoration, > assessment of the holistic capabilities of the athlete (physical, emotional > & psychological) and physical training. As previously stated that some athletes > train 8 hours a day, what needs to be understood is the difference between > being in training for 8 hours and training for 8 hours. For me that may > include 2-3 hours of exercise (3 sessions), meal times and restoration > activities. > > What we must consider is that whatever exercise is prescribed, it is > valueless if what follows it is garbage. During an 8 hour training day there > will peaks and troughs of player capabilities. Training sessions should be > aimed at peak times. These sessions will then be interspersed with recovery > activities (optimise adaptation to previous bout + maintain athletes ability > to perform subsequent sessions) and meal times. > > Furthermore one must understand how one session will affect what is to > follow, both in the short and intermediate days. For example, DOMS has been > shown to peak 48 hours after a novel exercise which is predominantly > eccentric in nature. Therefore, if you are aware of this, don't plan > anything other than restoration in this period. > > Verkhohansky's work has discussed how to train multiple biomotor abilities > at the same time. Zatsiorsky & Kraemer (2006) discussed how to calculate > training load, not to mention the excellent chapter in Supertraining, the > more intuitive programmers integrate some kind of qualitative measure into > their planning progress. Siff discusses how RPE and ratings of technique > have been used by Eastern European coaches in cybernetic planning. > > What I would say is that the very first exercise of the very first session > you do with an athlete will be the only one that follows the plan you start > with. Calculating the intensity of an exercise for an individual is a moment > by moment process. Those in the UKSCA will have read an interesting piece by > Ian s in a recent magazine regarding fatigue and recovery. In this he > says, quite rightly, that performance is affected by the physical, emotional > and psychological state of the athlete. Furthermore that problems in one > domain will transfer to others, we see this everyday that athletes when > tired concentrate less and find it hard to focus. This means that what an > athlete can do in one session, physically, they may not in the next despite > no loss of their physical attributes. Common to many athletes is an > accumulation of psychological pressures to perform which then manifest in > physical symptoms. > > In short, whilst you should always have a progressive plan established for > an athlete, be aware of the state of that athlete and be able to accommodate > that within the demands of the session. > > Mark Helme > Wakefield, UK > > More About Load: How much is too much? > > > > The thread about HIT focused on a single set vs. multiple set debate. I > would like to broaden that just a bit, comparing multiple set regimens. > > I'm not an exercise physiologist. However, my reading seems to suggest that > with respect to both hypertrophy and strength development, more training is > better except when it proceeds too fast, i.e., when an athlete's training > load exceeds the capacity he/she has developed to that point. To clarify, > I'm using " load " to mean (total number of repetitions) x (amount of weight > lifted per repetition). Moreover, I'm assuming a certain level of common > sense. Obviously, one can generate " load " in ways that are smart or not so > smart. But consider the following: > > Zatsiorsky tells us that we make gains by forcing adaptation to greater > loads. Bompa tells us that to generate the greatest hypertrophy, we need to > handle the heaviest loads we can tolerate. On his website, Verkoshansky > states that > the volume of training loads achieved the limit of reasonableness. Today the > professional athletes are training about 8 hours per day, 2-4 times during > the day, near to 1,700 hours per year. It's quite impossible imagine any > further increase of load volume. We should look for models that assure a > most rational use of the training loads over the year cycle; > today there is the tendency to increase the intensity of the training work > to increase the effectiveness of the training process, especially for the > top class athlete. This is an expedient that needs to be used very carefully > according to the qualification of athletes, the level of their preparedness > and the calendar of competitions. > Similarly, Louie talks about his powerlifters working through 14 > sessions per week. > > Granted, in terms of logic alone, the mere fact that " professional athletes > are training about 8 hours per day " does not necessarily mean it's the best > strategy. However, there is certainly serious evidence to suggest that many > of the most knowledgeable and committed people think that very extensive > training regimens are worthwhile. The message I get is that the best > results are achieved when a well-prepared athlete, following a > well-conceived, well-managed program, extends his training load as far as he > can, commensurate with his level of preparedness. > > In contrast, I was reading a book by Ditillo, *The Development of > Muscular Bulk and Power.* While " Ditillo " probably is not a household word, > Ditillo certainly achieved extraordinary muscular development and > strength. He worked out four times a week using basic multi-joint exercises > (squat, deadlift, bench press, press, some curls). I would estimate that > one of his workouts would take approximately an hour. Also, someone on the > forum recently mentioned 's Max-Stimulation program, which > involves a moderate load, certainly nothing like the 6-8 hours per day that > many elite Olympic weightlifters, powerlifters, and bodybuilders adhere to. > > Yes, there are people with genetic gifts such that their strength and bulk > increase when weights just come into their peripheral vision. But are there > serious scientific arguments that explain why and under what conditions a > workout like Ditillo's or 's produces equal or better results than a > much more extensive regimen that involves a much heavier load? > > ====================================== > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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