Re: Grain Free Milking

[Guest guest]

Ellen,

It is possible to milk without feeding grain. Training the cows

into the barn and milking parlor is a little tougher without the grain

incentive. Once a cow is trained, it likes to follow the SAME routine. So

you don't need the grain to get the cow in to milk. Cows will stand still

for milking, it is more of a routine and a relief for them. They do not

need the grain to keep them busy while being milked.

Now for the other side. If a farmer is milking commercially, then

they probably NEED to feed grain. The genetics of todays cows require the

extra energy of grain to produce the volumes of milk they have been bred to

produce (over the past hundreds of years). You cannot take a common Jersey

or Holstein, quit the grain and expect the same amount of milk (I

tried). The cow will almost milk herself to death, using all of her body

reserves and possible even aborting a calf to keep the milk flowing. In

todays farming market, you need each cow to produce as much as possible or

you will be out of business in a few years. Farmers are not paid based on

the cost of production, and often loose money when the wholesale milk price

is down (if it cost $13 to produce 100 lbs of milk and they market is only

paying $11, you go down fast).

I have tried not feeding any grain to one of our two Jersey cows,

her milk production dropped from 3 gallons/day to about 1. I started the

grain again and it came back up to almost 3/day. I only feed two scoops at

milking time, that is about 4 pounds of grain to a 1,000 pound cow. As

another example we just purchased another cow from a confinement

dairy. She is due to be dried off next week, so it at the end of the

production cycle. The day we picked her up I got 3 gal/day, within 3 days

she was down to 1gal/day. Part is probably due to the stress of a new

home, but mostly due to the change in feed (and less grain).

It is IMPOSSIBLE to have a 100% grain fee cow. If they are

allowed to graze, they eat grass seeds, etc. If they get hay, there are

seeds in there. So as Annellis said, it is more important to look at the

contents of the grain mixture (that is where they used to put the animal

renderings into the cow feed, before it was outlawed).

The most important thing in milk quality and cow health is that

the cows be allowed outside to graze. If the farmer has to feed some grain

or TMR (Total mixed ration- grain, hay, silage all mixed together) along

with the grazing you are far better off than the confinement milk you will

find in even the health food stores. The USDA is not going to enforce the

grazing requirements of organic, so don't rely on organic to be much better

than conventional milk.

I have been struggling with the no grain issue for years, so I am

getting re-started with grass based genetics for our beef herd and

continuing to feed a small amount of grain to our Jersey milk cows.

Mike Pasterik

Providence Pastures Farm

Farm Fresh Natural Foods

www.providencepastures.com

[Guest guest]

Ellen,

It is possible to milk without feeding grain. Training the cows

into the barn and milking parlor is a little tougher without the grain

incentive. Once a cow is trained, it likes to follow the SAME routine. So

you don't need the grain to get the cow in to milk. Cows will stand still

for milking, it is more of a routine and a relief for them. They do not

need the grain to keep them busy while being milked.

Now for the other side. If a farmer is milking commercially, then

they probably NEED to feed grain. The genetics of todays cows require the

extra energy of grain to produce the volumes of milk they have been bred to

produce (over the past hundreds of years). You cannot take a common Jersey

or Holstein, quit the grain and expect the same amount of milk (I

tried). The cow will almost milk herself to death, using all of her body

reserves and possible even aborting a calf to keep the milk flowing. In

todays farming market, you need each cow to produce as much as possible or

you will be out of business in a few years. Farmers are not paid based on

the cost of production, and often loose money when the wholesale milk price

is down (if it cost $13 to produce 100 lbs of milk and they market is only

paying $11, you go down fast).

I have tried not feeding any grain to one of our two Jersey cows,

her milk production dropped from 3 gallons/day to about 1. I started the

grain again and it came back up to almost 3/day. I only feed two scoops at

milking time, that is about 4 pounds of grain to a 1,000 pound cow. As

another example we just purchased another cow from a confinement

dairy. She is due to be dried off next week, so it at the end of the

production cycle. The day we picked her up I got 3 gal/day, within 3 days

she was down to 1gal/day. Part is probably due to the stress of a new

home, but mostly due to the change in feed (and less grain).

It is IMPOSSIBLE to have a 100% grain fee cow. If they are

allowed to graze, they eat grass seeds, etc. If they get hay, there are

seeds in there. So as Annellis said, it is more important to look at the

contents of the grain mixture (that is where they used to put the animal

renderings into the cow feed, before it was outlawed).

The most important thing in milk quality and cow health is that

the cows be allowed outside to graze. If the farmer has to feed some grain

or TMR (Total mixed ration- grain, hay, silage all mixed together) along

with the grazing you are far better off than the confinement milk you will

find in even the health food stores. The USDA is not going to enforce the

grazing requirements of organic, so don't rely on organic to be much better

than conventional milk.

I have been struggling with the no grain issue for years, so I am

getting re-started with grass based genetics for our beef herd and

continuing to feed a small amount of grain to our Jersey milk cows.

Mike Pasterik

Providence Pastures Farm

Farm Fresh Natural Foods

www.providencepastures.com

[Guest guest]

>>P.S.- Its not the cow eating a small amount of grain you should be worried about, its what is in the grain. Make sure your farmer is looking out for you and the cow by eliminating soy and cottonseed. By the way, grain makes cows fat if given too much, we don't wanta fat lazy cow. We want a healthy cow.

Annelis <<

~~~What is your rationale for thinking only soy and cottonseed are bad, and not grains? I avoid ALL grains in my own diet and would feel better, if the meat I eat and the milk products I eat/drink were free of grain components too. It seems like there would be other things to use to get vitamins/herbs inside the cow.

Carol

[Guest guest]

~~~~I can see I'll get some flack on this grain issue, but.....

>>>The genetics of todays cows require the extra energy of grain to produce the volumes of milk they have been bred to produce (over the past hundreds of years).<<<

~~~I doubt it's genetics, however. The kind of genetics you're talking about hasn't changed in humans in many thousands of years, so I can't see where they would have changed for an animal like a cow.

>>Farmers are not paid based on the cost of production, and often loose money when the wholesale milk price is down (if it cost $13 to produce 100 lbs of milk and they market is only paying $11, you go down fast).<<

~~~That is the trouble, and what is so sad. It's all about money, but I DO understand your problem, and it's not your fault - it started long before you started keeping cows, and you have to get along just like the rest of us. It's the same with a lot of other foods in todays human diets. That's part of the reason we humans are fed grains too - 'more bang for the buck'. I'm not religious, (in the usual sense), but as they say, 'money is the root of all evil'. So how do we ever get back to what's healthy, and do it in a financially feasible way? That's the question.

I just can't agree that just a little grain is ok. Try saying that to a celiac about gluten. (Or to me about any grain. I just simply cannot do any grain, not even rice.) This is one issue I hadn't thought of about dairy products and it's looking more and more like I won't be able to get raw milk that hasn't come from grain fed cows. (If grain changes the fat content of beef, why wouldn't it change the fat content of dairy products.)

Carol

[Guest guest]

You said: "Carol,

I am not trying to rag on you but it is hard for us as the raw dairy suppliers to convey why we do what we do...much less for you to understand."

~~~That is a little bit insulting. I know I can understand why you do what you do. I think I understand far more than you think I do. (But, I will try not to take offense.)

You said: "This is an animal I cannot talk to but must be close enough to by watching her to tell what she needs for her health. The animals talk to us but in certain ways. If your investing in an animal that costs anything from $1500.00 to $3000.00 believe me you would do the best for her you could. If not feeding her the grain could cause her to miscarry...you think that is better?"

~~~Cow's didn't routinely miscarry before they ate grains. Feeding animals grains is a relatively new activity. (Grass seeds are not what I'm talking about, as grass is natural to them.)

You added: "not to mention what she goes through in the process? as well as losing her own life?

Just a thought."

~~~I hope you're not saying that your cow may die without grains, given the fact that cows functioned fine for many more years before they were fed grains, than since. If you're saying we have to depend upon you to decide what to feed your cows, because you have invested the money, that's true. It's just like commercial beef growers have the right to decide to feed their cattle grains too, but I won't buy their meat. (And, more and more people are coming to the same conclusions I have. It might benefit you to listen to us, and try and work with us. "Just a thought.")

Carol

[Guest guest]

What about dairies that do use the cottonseed and soy? The South Carolina dairy that most of us in Georgia use does feed grain which has cottonseed and some soy added? He says the cows get some at milking time 15 minutes 2 times a day.I am a bit concerned about this. BUT, they all do that where milk is available around here. My solution is to mail order my milk from a certified organic dairy in PA who feeds organic hay, oats and corn in the winter along with what grass is available. Otherwise they are on pasture the rest of the year. Is this what I should be doing? Or is it ok to get milk from the dairy that uses these grain mixtures twice a day. He said his cows actually get very little. I worry about my children drinking the milk from cows who have had cottonseed though. My little one who is 4 months takes the homemade formula in Nourishing Traditions. I am unable to breast feed due to a breast reduction and feel its the next best thing.

Thanks,

Sandy

Re: Grain Free Milking

Carol, I am not sure if you are responding to me or another. There are several points to consider regarding grain and cows:God designed cows to eat grass, they can and will eat grain (it is sweet and contains a lot of energy).Man has selectively bred cows to produce either milk or beef in far more than natural amounts, favoring a performance on grain based diets.We cannot take these "genetically selected for grain" animals and expect them to provide the same performance on a grass only diet. They can survive and produce on the grass only diet, but there genetic potential will never be reached. It is like taking a seed from one of those huge world record pumpkins, and planting it in poor soil. You will probably get a plant, and probably some pumpkins, but I doubt any will match the world record status of the original seed bearer.The problems with grass based dairy and beef is that the commonly available genetics and what many farmers already have are not "tuned" for grass performance. If a dairy farm is shipping milk as their primary income and selling some raw milk direct, they cannot afford to convert the whole herd to grass only, since the drop in production will put them out of business. Now, if this same farmer could sell ALL the raw milk direct to the consumer or value add (cheese, etc) he/she will probably be more profitable as a grass based, direct market dairy.There are some farmers who are working toward grass performance genetics. The beef sector is further along and the dairy portion is found only in small direct marketers (milk, butter, cheeses, etc). Increasing consumer demand and more farmers willing to think "outside the box" will help propel the grass based genetics into wider availability and profitability. Intelligent, well informed consumers are exactly what the grass based movement needs.--MikePLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

Carol,

I am not sure if you are responding to me or another. There are several

points to consider regarding grain and cows:

God designed cows to eat grass, they can and will eat grain (it is sweet

and contains a lot of energy).

Man has selectively bred cows to produce either milk or beef in far more

than natural amounts, favoring a performance on grain based diets.

We cannot take these " genetically selected for grain " animals and expect

them to provide the same performance on a grass only diet. They can

survive and produce on the grass only diet, but there genetic potential

will never be reached. It is like taking a seed from one of those huge

world record pumpkins, and planting it in poor soil. You will probably get

a plant, and probably some pumpkins, but I doubt any will match the world

record status of the original seed bearer.

The problems with grass based dairy and beef is that the commonly available

genetics and what many farmers already have are not " tuned " for grass

performance. If a dairy farm is shipping milk as their primary income and

selling some raw milk direct, they cannot afford to convert the whole herd

to grass only, since the drop in production will put them out of

business. Now, if this same farmer could sell ALL the raw milk direct to

the consumer or value add (cheese, etc) he/she will probably be more

profitable as a grass based, direct market dairy.

There are some farmers who are working toward grass performance

genetics. The beef sector is further along and the dairy portion is found

only in small direct marketers (milk, butter, cheeses, etc). Increasing

consumer demand and more farmers willing to think " outside the box " will

help propel the grass based genetics into wider availability and

profitability. Intelligent, well informed consumers are exactly what the

grass based movement needs.

--Mike

[Guest guest]

>>>I try to make it as natural as I can and leave the bad stuff out (like cotton seed, soy, antibiotics).<<<

~~~But you see, all grains are the "bad stuff" as far as many of us are concerned.

>>>my cows get no antibiotics at all...not even when they quote "need it" because I treat them naturally with herbs and homeopathic medicine. Before "man" started feeding them grain and they roamed...they got the grain they needed from the wheat, barley, cotton, oat and corn etc... that grows all around. There was no need to feed them grain.<<<

~~~You better check your history. Cattle have never fed themselves grains. None of those grains were in existence when cattle foraged for themselves.

>>>The cows get 2-3 lbs of grain for a 1000 lb plus cow. That is comparative to someone that weighs 100 lbs eating 2-3 oz of rice/ grain. The amount is so small but makes a world of difference.<<<

~~~As I've said before, that makes no difference. A speck of grain is too much for me. (And many people, who don't even realize it. Similarly to how a speck of gluten is too much for a celiac.) There are cattlemen who say their cattle are grass-fed, but then fatten them up at the end with grains. That is enough to ruin the meat.

>>>>My midwife told me to eat balanced meals for my nutrition...why wouldn't my cow need the same. If my midwife had told me..."Annelis if you don't eat at least a little grain, you could miscarry; not that I would but that I could". You bet your butt I'd eat a small amount of grain.<<<<

~~~Well, you might want to study up on that a bit yourself, because most nutritionists don't understand grains. They're too busy using the governments 'food pyramid' as their source of 'knowledge' to look at the research themselves. Grains are not necessary for man OR beast, and are not healthy.

>>>If all I ate was one thing that was still lacking in nutrients...it could cause me to miscarry, compromise my immun system by lowering my protein levels/ vitamin A etc.. too low.<<<

~~~That has nothing to do with eating grains. Grains are in no way necessary to the health of a cow. (Or humans, for that matter. In fact the anti-nutrients in grains are doing you more harm than any conceivable good. At this point, I'm not at all sure you know what grains are, since earlier you lumped soy into the mix.

>>>>And Hay does lack nutrients.

I wasn't saying that the cow would miscarry if not fed grain, but why jeopardize her life by doing so or take the chance. The amount of grain that the cows get is so small I cannot see this as a danger to anyone. Sorry...just my opinion.<<<<

~~~As I said, there are people who won't want the milk from your cow. And, as I said before, you're going to see more people like me as time goes on. It might put you ahead of the game, if you took what I say seriously now and start thinking about alternatives. I'm not saying you have to change over night.

Carol

[Guest guest]

>>>>Man has selectively bred cows to produce either milk or beef in far more than natural amounts, favoring a performance on grain based diets.We cannot take these "genetically selected for grain" animals and expect them to provide the same performance on a grass only diet.<<<

~~~~That's not genetics. You are simply talking dollars and cents, and I already said that I understand the problem. But, there must be a way to find an answer to this. For instance, it's not as profitable to raise organic veggies either, but people have started to do it and it's getting so they can even be competitive.

>>>They can survive and produce on the grass only diet, but there genetic potential will never be reached.<<<

~~~~Again, that's not genetics.

>>>It is like taking a seed from one of those huge world record pumpkins, and planting it in poor soil.

~~~But, we shouldn't be trying to raise world record pumpkins to serve as healthy food, any more than we should be trying to produce milk for quantity as opposed to quality. You're still only thinking of the profit side of the equation. (Which I understand. But, things are changing, and it's time to think about how to accomodate those changes.)

>>>The problems with grass based dairy and beef is that the commonly available genetics and what many farmers already have are not "tuned" for grass performance.<<<

~~~Again, genetics has nothing to do with feeding them grain. What you are talking about is very close to feeding cows hormones to make them bigger. Grains are fed cows to make them fatter and therefore more profitable. It's the same with veggies - pesticides and chemical fertilizers make veggies bigger too. (But, they are not healthy for us consumers.)

>>>If a dairy farm is shipping milk as their primary income and selling some raw milk direct, they cannot afford to convert the whole herd to grass only, since the drop in production will put them out of business.<<<

~~~I guess you didn't really read my post. I said that I understoood the financial problem. As I said, there are those of us who won't eat beef that's been grain-fed, and when people realize what's going on, they may not want to eat dairy products that are produced from grain-fed cows either. Things are changing, and you can either acknowledge that and start planning for the future, or your sales will recede anyway, as people find beef and dairy producers who will accomadate their needs. I'm not saying you need to make over night changes. This is just a valid issue to think about.

>>>Now, if this same farmer could sell ALL the raw milk direct to the consumer or value add (cheese, etc) he/she will probably be more profitable as a grass based, direct market dairy.<<<

~~~~Guess I don't understand what you're saying, because that sounds like exactly what I've got in mind.>>>The beef sector is further along and the dairy portion is found only in small direct marketers (milk, butter, cheeses, etc).<<<

~~~I thought that was what we're dealing with here. Aren't raw milk farmers direct marketers?

>>>Increasing consumer demand and more farmers willing to think "outside the box" will help propel the grass based genetics into wider availability and profitability. Intelligent, well informed consumers are exactly what the grass based movement needs.<<<

~~~That's exactly what I'm saying, so why are you fighting me on this?

Carol--Mike

[Guest guest]

To add a bit to this discussion, I only give my Margie and others about 3 cups of COB a day once we stop milking. I do this only as a treat. They can live fine without grain, but folks, it's not so much the grain that enhances the milk production, it's the molasses. You can also give them raw sugar on a flake of hay and get the same results. Or you can buy molasses (dry or wet) and not feed the grain.

I saw a program on PBS last year that told how some of the dairymen in Australia were contracting with the candy factories to get enough candy to feed their cows instead of grain. It's the sugar that enhances the milk production and there has been oodles of articles on how bad grain is for cattle because it's not a natural food for them. I still feed grain because candy is expensive. But, when its on sale after the different holidays, I get what I can for them and cut back on the grain.

I also found out that some dairies in Penn. contract with Hersheys to get their bunk chocolate to feed their cattle.

People laugh, but I train my calves with those inexpensive sandwich cookies and it works great.

K.C.

Re: Grain Free Milking

You said: "Carol,

I am not trying to rag on you but it is hard for us as the raw dairy suppliers to convey why we do what we do...much less for you to understand."

~~~That is a little bit insulting. I know I can understand why you do what you do. I think I understand far more than you think I do. (But, I will try not to take offense.)

You said: "This is an animal I cannot talk to but must be close enough to by watching her to tell what she needs for her health. The animals talk to us but in certain ways. If your investing in an animal that costs anything from $1500.00 to $3000.00 believe me you would do the best for her you could. If not feeding her the grain could cause her to miscarry...you think that is better?"

~~~Cow's didn't routinely miscarry before they ate grains. Feeding animals grains is a relatively new activity. (Grass seeds are not what I'm talking about, as grass is natural to them.)

You added: "not to mention what she goes through in the process? as well as losing her own life?

Just a thought."

~~~I hope you're not saying that your cow may die without grains, given the fact that cows functioned fine for many more years before they were fed grains, than since. If you're saying we have to depend upon you to decide what to feed your cows, because you have invested the money, that's true. It's just like commercial beef growers have the right to decide to feed their cattle grains too, but I won't buy their meat. (And, more and more people are coming to the same conclusions I have. It might benefit you to listen to us, and try and work with us. "Just a thought.")

Carol

PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

P.S. I haven't ever lost a calf because I didn't feed grain. Never heard of that one.

K.C.

Re: Grain Free Milking

You said: "Carol,

I am not trying to rag on you but it is hard for us as the raw dairy suppliers to convey why we do what we do...much less for you to understand."

~~~That is a little bit insulting. I know I can understand why you do what you do. I think I understand far more than you think I do. (But, I will try not to take offense.)

You said: "This is an animal I cannot talk to but must be close enough to by watching her to tell what she needs for her health. The animals talk to us but in certain ways. If your investing in an animal that costs anything from $1500.00 to $3000.00 believe me you would do the best for her you could. If not feeding her the grain could cause her to miscarry...you think that is better?"

~~~Cow's didn't routinely miscarry before they ate grains. Feeding animals grains is a relatively new activity. (Grass seeds are not what I'm talking about, as grass is natural to them.)

You added: "not to mention what she goes through in the process? as well as losing her own life?

Just a thought."

~~~I hope you're not saying that your cow may die without grains, given the fact that cows functioned fine for many more years before they were fed grains, than since. If you're saying we have to depend upon you to decide what to feed your cows, because you have invested the money, that's true. It's just like commercial beef growers have the right to decide to feed their cattle grains too, but I won't buy their meat. (And, more and more people are coming to the same conclusions I have. It might benefit you to listen to us, and try and work with us. "Just a thought.")

Carol

PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

I have to agree with the idea of that not being a matter of genetics.

I have friends who will raise a steer for me because I can't eat what I feed. Both of these people are willing to feed grass and alfalfa, but insist that they will feed corn the last couple of months. I don't want that done. I don't believe its necessary to "FATTEN" them up with corn or one of those prepared "beef feeds". These are people that have been raised on farms and raised cattle for years, but they are convinced this is the "Best" way to go.

So, I guess I won't be having any grass fed beef for myself. Of course, a mini steer is ready months sooner then a standard size steer, so maybe I can get them to raise him and just say, now's the time and they won't have fed him any corn. Just be a bit sneaky about when the steer will be ready (LOL).

K.C.

Re: Grain Free Milking

>>>>Man has selectively bred cows to produce either milk or beef in far more than natural amounts, favoring a performance on grain based diets.We cannot take these "genetically selected for grain" animals and expect them to provide the same performance on a grass only diet.<<<

~~~~That's not genetics. You are simply talking dollars and cents, and I already said that I understand the problem. But, there must be a way to find an answer to this. For instance, it's not as profitable to raise organic veggies either, but people have started to do it and it's getting so they can even be competitive.

>>>They can survive and produce on the grass only diet, but there genetic potential will never be reached.<<<

~~~~Again, that's not genetics.

>>>It is like taking a seed from one of those huge world record pumpkins, and planting it in poor soil.

~~~But, we shouldn't be trying to raise world record pumpkins to serve as healthy food, any more than we should be trying to produce milk for quantity as opposed to quality. You're still only thinking of the profit side of the equation. (Which I understand. But, things are changing, and it's time to think about how to accomodate those changes.)

>>>The problems with grass based dairy and beef is that the commonly available genetics and what many farmers already have are not "tuned" for grass performance.<<<

~~~Again, genetics has nothing to do with feeding them grain. What you are talking about is very close to feeding cows hormones to make them bigger. Grains are fed cows to make them fatter and therefore more profitable. It's the same with veggies - pesticides and chemical fertilizers make veggies bigger too. (But, they are not healthy for us consumers.)

>>>If a dairy farm is shipping milk as their primary income and selling some raw milk direct, they cannot afford to convert the whole herd to grass only, since the drop in production will put them out of business.<<<

~~~I guess you didn't really read my post. I said that I understoood the financial problem. As I said, there are those of us who won't eat beef that's been grain-fed, and when people realize what's going on, they may not want to eat dairy products that are produced from grain-fed cows either. Things are changing, and you can either acknowledge that and start planning for the future, or your sales will recede anyway, as people find beef and dairy producers who will accomadate their needs. I'm not saying you need to make over night changes. This is just a valid issue to think about.

>>>Now, if this same farmer could sell ALL the raw milk direct to the consumer or value add (cheese, etc) he/she will probably be more profitable as a grass based, direct market dairy.<<<

~~~~Guess I don't understand what you're saying, because that sounds like exactly what I've got in mind.>>>The beef sector is further along and the dairy portion is found only in small direct marketers (milk, butter, cheeses, etc).<<<

~~~I thought that was what we're dealing with here. Aren't raw milk farmers direct marketers?

>>>Increasing consumer demand and more farmers willing to think "outside the box" will help propel the grass based genetics into wider availability and profitability. Intelligent, well informed consumers are exactly what the grass based movement needs.<<<

~~~That's exactly what I'm saying, so why are you fighting me on this?

Carol--MikePLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

>>>These are people that have been raised on farms and raised cattle for years, but they are convinced this is the "Best" way to go.<<

~~~I think the fact that they HAVE been raised on the farm is why they think grain is the best way to go. It's a modern method, relatively speaking, but older than anyone on earth today, so it seems like the traditional way, to todays farmers.

>>>So, I guess I won't be having any grass fed beef for myself. Of course, a mini steer is ready months sooner then a standard size steer, so maybe I can get them to raise him and just say, now's the time and they won't have fed him any corn. Just be a bit sneaky about when the steer will be ready (LOL).<<<

~~~Well, it wouldn't be hurting anyone to do that. I'd do it, if I had the chance. The only way I have to get grass fed beef is to order it and it's expensive to ship from some place like Texas, which is where I got the last batch I ordered. (And, I wasn't happy with the way it was butchered at all. Too much gristle in the hamburger and stew meat. I lost a half pound for every two pounds by the time I cut the gristle off the stew meat.) They say that the older animals provide the best meat, though. I really don't know if that's true or not, however.

Carol

K.C.

[Guest guest]

Hi Ellen, to answer your questions: when we stopped feeding grain to our cows 5 or 6 years ago, our cows just adapted to it. We expected they would all have hissy fits about it, but they didn't. We'd been tapering them off grain for a while before we stopped altogether. We milk in a stanchion barn with stalls enough for all the cows at one time (30 cows). We bring them in all together . When we fed grain they would stay long enough to eat the grain and walk out. After we quit feeding grain, they knew they were to stay till after we milked them (that is to say, it seemed like they realized the reason for being in the barn was for milking, not for feeding). We only occasionally tied cows while milking with either feeding grain/not feeding grain.

On the subject of feeding grain or not....there is a lot to be said about the soil and forage qualities the farmer is offering in place of the grain. If you aren't satisfying the nutritional needs of the cows with the forages, it isn't going to work to pull the grain from them. On the other hand, I know of farmers, myself included, who have spent a lot of time, money and research in making the soils on the farm rich enough to support grass only feeding. Grain feeding farmers often comment that our cows do not look skinny, as they expected they would getting only grass.

Yoder

Grain Free Milking

This is for the farmers out there who use no grain whatsoever: How doyou get your cows into the barn for milking without any grain? How doyou get them to stand still for milking without any grain? Our farmersays it would be impossible to milk without some grain.EllenPLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

K.C.,

I believe I would have to pass out if I ever found out my farmer fed

sugar, candy and cookies to her cows. This seems like a bad thing to

me, the normal joe, non-farmer consumer. Not only are there soy

derivatives in processed supermarket cookies, but also lots of

trans-fats and preservatives, which as we all know are very unhealthy.

I would think a lot of that junk passes into the milk. I know when I

was nursing my babies, what I ate really affected them. I am sure it

is the same with dairy cows. I know you take it lightly, to feed

sweets to them, but just know that letting people know that you do this

could be very bad for business. I say this because I am concerned that

all raw milk producers across the country get all the business that

they can. I want you and all of them to succeed. We need to be

different, we need to be the best producers.

:-)

D.

On Dec 8, 2004, at 7:52 PM, RawDairy wrote:

> Message: 20

> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 17:04:22 -0700

>

> Subject: Re: Grain Free Milking

>

> To add a bit to this discussion, I only give my Margie and others

> about 3 cups of COB a day once we stop milking. I do this only as a

> treat. They can live fine without grain, but folks, it's not so much

> the grain that enhances the milk production, it's the molasses. You

> can also give them raw sugar on a flake of hay and get the same

> results. Or you can buy molasses (dry or wet) and not feed the grain.

>

> I saw a program on PBS last year that told how some of the dairymen in

> Australia were contracting with the candy factories to get enough

> candy to feed their cows instead of grain. It's the sugar that

> enhances the milk production and there has been oodles of articles on

> how bad grain is for cattle because it's not a natural food for them.

> I still feed grain because candy is expensive. But, when its on sale

> after the different holidays, I get what I can for them and cut back

> on the grain.

>

> I also found out that some dairies in Penn. contract with Hersheys to

> get their bunk chocolate to feed their cattle.

>

> People laugh, but I train my calves with those inexpensive sandwich

> cookies and it works great.

>

> K.C.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

If you would like an eye opening experience research commodity dairy

feeds on the Internet. You may even be surprised to know cardboard

has been feed to dairy animals for fiber.

Jolene K. Self

Farnham, Virginia

>

> > Message: 20

> > Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 17:04:22 -0700

> > From: " Tinybabe " <tinybabe2@r...>

> > Subject: Re: Grain Free Milking

> >

> > To add a bit to this discussion, I only give my Margie and others

> > about 3 cups of COB a day once we stop milking. I do this only

as a

> > treat. They can live fine without grain, but folks, it's not so

much

> > the grain that enhances the milk production, it's the molasses.

You

> > can also give them raw sugar on a flake of hay and get the same

> > results. Or you can buy molasses (dry or wet) and not feed the

grain.

> >

> > I saw a program on PBS last year that told how some of the

dairymen in

> > Australia were contracting with the candy factories to get enough

> > candy to feed their cows instead of grain. It's the sugar that

> > enhances the milk production and there has been oodles of

articles on

> > how bad grain is for cattle because it's not a natural food for

them.

> > I still feed grain because candy is expensive. But, when its on

sale

> > after the different holidays, I get what I can for them and cut

back

> > on the grain.

> >

> > I also found out that some dairies in Penn. contract with

Hersheys to

> > get their bunk chocolate to feed their cattle.

> >

> > People laugh, but I train my calves with those inexpensive

sandwich

> > cookies and it works great.

> >

> > K.C.

[Guest guest]

Hi Jolene,

Wow, yes actually, I would not be surprised by that. I know Sally Fallon (WAPF)

says that

confimed Holstein cows are fed donuts, citrus peel cakes (loaded with pesticides

from the

skins of sprayed oranges), bubble gum, and the wrappers, etc. It's a sad state

of affiairs

for the modern-day cow isn't it?

D.

>

> Hi ,

>

> If you would like an eye opening experience research commodity dairy

> feeds on the Internet. You may even be surprised to know cardboard

> has been feed to dairy animals for fiber.

>

> Jolene K. Self

> Farnham, Virginia

>

[Guest guest]

>>Hi Jolene,Wow, yes actually, I would not be surprised by that. I know Sally Fallon (WAPF) says that confimed Holstein cows are fed donuts, citrus peel cakes (loaded with pesticides from the skins of sprayed oranges), bubble gum, and the wrappers, etc. It's a sad state of affiairs for the modern-day cow isn't it? D.<<

~~~What in the wide world would be the purpose of feeding cows all those things?!

Carol

[Guest guest]

Yes, and there is an old timer that says those steers sold as "grass calves" at about 7 months are actually more tender and the meat is better because there's no time to get the fat and gristle on it. That makes sense to me considering what people are willing to pay for veal, which I haven't eaten for more then 20 years when I found out what the industry does to those poor animals.

K.C.

Re: Grain Free Milking

>>>These are people that have been raised on farms and raised cattle for years, but they are convinced this is the "Best" way to go.<<

~~~I think the fact that they HAVE been raised on the farm is why they think grain is the best way to go. It's a modern method, relatively speaking, but older than anyone on earth today, so it seems like the traditional way, to todays farmers.

>>>So, I guess I won't be having any grass fed beef for myself. Of course, a mini steer is ready months sooner then a standard size steer, so maybe I can get them to raise him and just say, now's the time and they won't have fed him any corn. Just be a bit sneaky about when the steer will be ready (LOL).<<<

~~~Well, it wouldn't be hurting anyone to do that. I'd do it, if I had the chance. The only way I have to get grass fed beef is to order it and it's expensive to ship from some place like Texas, which is where I got the last batch I ordered. (And, I wasn't happy with the way it was butchered at all. Too much gristle in the hamburger and stew meat. I lost a half pound for every two pounds by the time I cut the gristle off the stew meat.) They say that the older animals provide the best meat, though. I really don't know if that's true or not, however.

Carol

K.C.

PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

That's good if you can do it, but where I live and in the surrounding areas, I just found out that we aren't selenium poor, there is NO selenium in the ground at all. I asked what would cause this and the man I was talking to said that it has to do with when the volcanic ash settled and where eons ago.

We have to supplement selenium and other nutrients. I doubt theres a way to improve this ground. Gonna have to move at some point, I guess.

K.C.

Grain Free Milking

This is for the farmers out there who use no grain whatsoever: How doyou get your cows into the barn for milking without any grain? How doyou get them to stand still for milking without any grain? Our farmersays it would be impossible to milk without some grain.EllenPLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

Give me a break. Margie gets 3 cookies as a snack. On a 600-700 lb. animal, just how much do you think is going into the milk?

Also, candy that I get is just sugar and flavor (not full of junk and artificial crap). I don't feed a bunch of junk to my cow and her milk is fabulous. She also gets fruits and veggies and even some bread in the form of bagels now and again when I have extra.

What I said was that the dairymen in Australia were feeding candy instead of grain. I don't suppose they have a problem with their milk either.

Everyone knows I give my girls cookies. Boys too. As a training aid, it's not that big of a deal. As a treat, it's even less of a thing.

I can't believe the people who get my milk have a problem with Margie getting a cookie a couple times a day.

My cows/heifer/bull calves are always extremely healthy and don't have and never have had problems with a cookie now and then.

I realize there are a lot of purists on this group and I have learned a lot from everyone, but my cows are as clean as I can have them. They don't get antibiotics, only get vaccines at birth that are necessary for survival, I have switched grain because I don't feed a lot of crap to my animals, I only get hay that hasn't been sprayed and if people really think a cookie or a piece of candy is that bad, I'm really sorry. I'm an honest person and people know what they are getting when they get milk from Margie.

K.C.

Re: Grain Free Milking>> To add a bit to this discussion, I only give my Margie and others > about 3 cups of COB a day once we stop milking. I do this only as a > treat. They can live fine without grain, but folks, it's not so much > the grain that enhances the milk production, it's the molasses. You > can also give them raw sugar on a flake of hay and get the same > results. Or you can buy molasses (dry or wet) and not feed the grain.>> I saw a program on PBS last year that told how some of the dairymen in > Australia were contracting with the candy factories to get enough > candy to feed their cows instead of grain. It's the sugar that > enhances the milk production and there has been oodles of articles on > how bad grain is for cattle because it's not a natural food for them. > I still feed grain because candy is expensive. But, when its on sale > after the different holidays, I get what I can for them and cut back > on the grain.>> I also found out that some dairies in Penn. contract with Hersheys to > get their bunk chocolate to feed their cattle.>> People laugh, but I train my calves with those inexpensive sandwich > cookies and it works great.>> K.C.PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

Not to mention the added expense when you have 100's and 1000's of cows that are being milked. Normally, they give them the essentials and that's it.

K.C.

Re: Re: Grain Free Milking

>>Hi Jolene,Wow, yes actually, I would not be surprised by that. I know Sally Fallon (WAPF) says that confimed Holstein cows are fed donuts, citrus peel cakes (loaded with pesticides from the skins of sprayed oranges), bubble gum, and the wrappers, etc. It's a sad state of affiairs for the modern-day cow isn't it? D.<<

~~~What in the wide world would be the purpose of feeding cows all those things?!

Carol

PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

,

I won't go into all your arguments, because they've been addressed more than once and refuted already today on this List. But, I will address a couple of things:

>>Until you have a dairy cow and have to struggle to keep her in a healthy weight while still maintaining body condition, fertility, and milk production don't knock anyone for feeding a cow grain.<<

~~~I will continue to "knock" grain feeding to anyone as I wish, because I believe it's wrong, and we still live in a country that maintains a policy of free speech.

>>If you had one you would be perfectly willing to give her grain if its a choice between your contrived standards of what is natural and right and having a animal who looks like a skeleton with hide who is eating up her own body to give you milk and grow a calf.<<

~~~I don't believe you know what I would be willing to do. I can tell you right now, I'd find a way NOT to feed my cow grains. Feeding grains is what is contrived, and if you'd done some reading before you posted, you'd know that too.

>>>If you look hard enough I am sure you could find one, but your average small farmer with a cow or two doesn't have the resources or money to constantly upgrade their pastures or buy the finest alfalfa hay.<<<

~~~You don't have to look very hard, because there's one on this List, who just posted a little while ago about their success with grain-free dairy cows.

>>>And remember, grains like oats, wheat, barley, etc. are just hugely overdeveloped seed heads on grass. Nothing more. And it is something that a wild population of cattle would eat.<<<

~~~Nothing more?! That is simply not true, I don't care how many cows you own. If you knew anything about those grains you feed your cows, you'd know that grains are not simply grasses. Grasses do not have huge amounts of anti-nutrients like lectins and phytic acid, that you find in abundance in grains. All you have to do is read a history book, concerning what a wild population of cows ate, and you'd see it wasn't grains.

And, once again I will say to some of you very defensive cow owners, I know this is not something you can achieve over night, but it is the way of things to come, so you might as well start thinking about ways to avoid feeding grains to your cows, because the public is becoming more and more informed, and it might be a good idea to keep up with that knowledge.

Carol

[Guest guest]

Carol,

I am not fighting, you, in fact we agree on many points. First, I was not

clear if your response was to my post, but it is clear now. I am just

trying to provide a rounded perspective as to WHY grain has been used. You

are right, it boils down to profit. Grain is " cheap " on the surface but

has many hidden costs of production. The big chemical companies can't make

much profit from me if I graze my animals on naturally fertilized

pastures. I don't need chemicals, weed killers, etc. In the US, farming

has been under pressure to get bigger or get out and to increase efficiency

to increase profit.

For the record, I am not a commercial dairy farmer. We milk 2 Jerseys for

family milk, we don't even have anybody buying raw milk from us (although a

couple of people seem interested). We raise 100% grass fed and finished

beef, pastured poultry and pastured pork. We are doing things differently,

and are looking for informed, local customers (North Western PA).

Performance on grain is genetic, the animals have been selected based on

performance. For our beef herd we are starting, we are going to be using

bulls from New Zealand that have been selected and raised on 100%

grass. By using grass performing genetics, I will be able to raise a good

sized beef, at a lower cost (compared to grain) and sell a better product

for a reasonable price. If I were to use common beef genetics, the animal

would be smaller since it can't do as well on grass, or it would take

longer to grow, either way it reduces my profit.

Like it or not, it comes down to profit. If the farmer can't pay his

taxes and other expenses he will have to sell the land to developers and

take a city job. Consumers have to be willing to buy direct from the

farmer and pay a fair (not outrageous) price for good quality food. Don't

expect the larger farms to realize the natural food market. Trying to get

raw milk from a large dairy and then asking them to produce grass fed only

just won't happen. You have to find the small guy, the true family farmer,

who is willing to produce for the specialty market. But, if he can't make

a profit with that market it isn't worth doing.

You are right about changing the food supply. There are too many problems

caused by the junk we have been fed. The people that are going to make the

change are the small (perhaps startup) farmers. The older generation of

farmers will not change, partially because of tradition,they have too much

money in equipment and the wrong genetics, and partly because it would mean

admitting they have been doing all wrong their entire life. Not an easy

fact to accept. Consumers have to educate the producers and producers to

educate new consumers. It is a small market (for now) and we are all in

this together.

--Mike

[Guest guest]

>>>Thank you for clearing up this mess.<<<

~~~Sorry you think I created a "mess", but she certainly didn't clear anything up. She only repeated what was said at the beginning of this "mess". I would advise everyone to do their own research, and not just believe what people post with no documentation.

>>>I think a lot of times when people talk about the hazzards of grains, they are confusing them with legumes.<<<

~~~Believe me, I'm in no way confusing grains with legumes, although legumes wouldn't be good either, I agree.

>>>Also, whole grains for people is advisable. There are many benefits from them. I have to be honest and say that I've only read a little about grains, but what I have read dictates that certain grains are not only beneficial, but necessary for good bodily functions. <<<

~~~~Maybe you should read a little more then. You may change your mind, as others are doing every day, because whole grains are becoming more and more suspect all the time:

http://www.mercola.com/2002/oct/5/dangerous_grains.htm

>>>I know that wheat can cause and contribute to many allergies, but I guess I'm lucky because the only thing I'm allergic to is pine pollen and since there are no pines where I live that produce mass quantities of pollen, I don't suffer at all.K.C.<<<

~~~It's not a matter of allergy, in this case. (I'm not allergic to anything either, by the way)

Carol