Re: Grain Free Milking

December 8, 2004

Mike,

>>We raise 100% grass fed and finished beef, pastured poultry and pastured pork. We are doing things differently, and are looking for informed, local customers (North Western PA).<<

~~~That's great! I love hearing about people who are doing this. I wish we didn't live on opposites sides of the country!

>>>Like it or not, it comes down to profit. If the farmer can't pay his taxes and other expenses he will have to sell the land to developers and take a city job.<<<

~~~Well, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I will say once again, that I realize this can't happen over night. I'm only out trying to 'sow seeds'.

>>>Consumers have to be willing to buy direct from the farmer and pay a fair (not outrageous) price for good quality food. Don't expect the larger farms to realize the natural food market. Trying to get raw milk from a large dairy and then asking them to produce grass fed only just won't happen.<<<

~~~It won't happen over night, but if enough people become aware of all the health problems current methods are causing, it WILL happen, but slowly. In the meantime, yes, we will have to go directly to smaller operations, which is what we are all doing here. Some times major changes start at the 'grass roots'. (Pun intended! :-) Look at the organic produce market. Those small farms are having so much effect that some of the large grocery stores are beginning to carry organic produce. I think it's very encouraging.

>>>>Consumers have to educate the producers and producers to educate new consumers. It is a small market (for now) and we are all in this together.--Mike<<<<

~~~Yes, that's what I'm saying. I'm glad we agree.

Carol

December 9, 2004

I have to say that I know of a small farmer who is only grass with his dairy and beef cows. He has worked with his land for the last number of years. Many of these small farmers don't get on the computer. I know of two like that. They are too busy working the land.

His milk is wonderful and it is not from a jersey cow. The milk that I get sometimes from a jersey cannot touch his milk. It's all in the nurturing of the land.

I once said to people that I don't feed crackers to my goats. Even tho' I don't get milk from them. I said crackers do not grow. Naturally I was attacked and told that they are grains etc. But that to me is the answer. If it doesn't grow they don't get.

Rhoda

December 9, 2004

Probably the reason they feed them these things is because it is

cheaper than the basic essentials. Bakeries throw out donuts that

don't sell and other bakery waste usually, and if a dairy farmer with

5000 head will give them at least something (pennies on the dollar) for

their bakery waste, it's better than nothing. The peels of oranges are

probably cheap as well-something that usually would be waste, used up

by the confinement dairies on a huge scale, pressed into a tight cake.

You said yourself that it's not the grain that increases production,

but the sugar. And that's what the big dairies are all about--more

milk, less overhead. It all comes back to money.

On Dec 8, 2004, at 11:07 PM, RawDairy wrote:

> Message: 20

> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 21:00:44 -0700

>

> Subject: Re: Re: Grain Free Milking

>

> Not to mention the added expense when you have 100's and 1000's of

> cows that are being milked. Normally, they give them the essentials

> and that's it.

>

> K.C.

> Re: Re: Grain Free Milking

>

>>> Hi Jolene,

> Wow, yes actually, I would not be surprised by that. I know Sally

> Fallon (WAPF) says that

> confimed Holstein cows are fed donuts, citrus peel cakes (loaded

> with pesticides from the

> skins of sprayed oranges), bubble gum, and the wrappers, etc. It's

> a sad state of affiairs

> for the modern-day cow isn't it?

> D.<<

>

> ~~~What in the wide world would be the purpose of feeding cows all

> those things?!

December 9, 2004

I am getting disgusted with this thread.Man has selectivly bred animals for several centuries.It has altered the genitics of any domesticated animals.I do not know if Carol has ever had pratical experiance with livestock.Everyone is entitiled to their opinion,but when you start telling people that handle these animals daily that they have no idea on how to feed,I can see somebody getting their feathers ruffled.Its the nature of livestock owners,they are open to new ideas but will take offense to rudeness,they are people too. Offer the info and step back,don't be so borderline ugly.Just because somebody reacts with an impassioned response,don't jump in the middle of them.Livestock is not just a finacial investment,but one of the heart and soul.My goats are part of my family and I go without things so I can get the extras for them.Please don't pick apart my email,I think its really rude,done by anyone.So don't think that I am singling you out.

Chrisitna in Tx

December 9, 2004

Hi K.C.,

I guess I misunderstood your post, and thought you meant that you gave

your cow sugar and candy as a staple, not as a little treat or training

aid now and then. I think I understand now what you are saying. I

still wouldn't be comfortable knowing my farmer gave them bagels and

candy, but maybe it's okay every once in a while and as long as they

are getting other healthy stuff...hmmm. I guess as long as your

customers don't mind.....

My Jersey cow gets all grass and one small scoop of crushed organic

corn at milking time. Her milk is amazing.

On Dec 8, 2004, at 11:07 PM, RawDairy wrote:

> Message: 19

> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 20:56:04 -0700

>

> Subject: Re: Re: Grain Free Milking

>

> Give me a break. Margie gets 3 cookies as a snack. On a 600-700 lb.

> animal, just how much do you think is going into the milk?

>

> Also, candy that I get is just sugar and flavor (not full of junk and

> artificial crap). I don't feed a bunch of junk to my cow and her milk

> is fabulous. She also gets fruits and veggies and even some bread in

> the form of bagels now and again when I have extra.

>

> What I said was that the dairymen in Australia were feeding candy

> instead of grain. I don't suppose they have a problem with their milk

> either.

>

> Everyone knows I give my girls cookies. Boys too. As a training aid,

> it's not that big of a deal. As a treat, it's even less of a thing.

>

> I can't believe the people who get my milk have a problem with Margie

> getting a cookie a couple times a day.

>

> My cows/heifer/bull calves are always extremely healthy and don't have

> and never have had problems with a cookie now and then.

>

> I realize there are a lot of purists on this group and I have learned

> a lot from everyone, but my cows are as clean as I can have them.

> They don't get antibiotics, only get vaccines at birth that are

> necessary for survival, I have switched grain because I don't feed a

> lot of crap to my animals, I only get hay that hasn't been sprayed and

> if people really think a cookie or a piece of candy is that bad, I'm

> really sorry. I'm an honest person and people know what they are

> getting when they get milk from Margie.

>

> K.C.

December 9, 2004

I have offered some oranges to my cows. Some like them, some don't. I look at it this way: An animal will eat what it believes it needs to. Could be that the ones that liked the oranges were in need of some extra vitamin C even though they all got the same food. Margie loves tomatoes. I never figured that cattle would like citus of any kind, but I have a friend whose cattle love all kinds of citrus.

K.C.

Re: Re: Grain Free Milking>>>>> Hi Jolene,> Wow, yes actually, I would not be surprised by that. I know Sally > Fallon (WAPF) says that> confimed Holstein cows are fed donuts, citrus peel cakes (loaded > with pesticides from the> skins of sprayed oranges), bubble gum, and the wrappers, etc. It's > a sad state of affiairs> for the modern-day cow isn't it?> D.<<>> ~~~What in the wide world would be the purpose of feeding cows all > those things?!PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

December 9, 2004

> We get our grain specially mixed for us and stay away from the

cheaper commercial grain for that reason.

> Annelis

Annelis, What makes up your grain mixture?

Thank you,

Cyndi Muller

Muller's Lane Farm

December 9, 2004

You are not a ruminant. Ruminates are NOT

meat eater, they could not live on your optimal diet.

One needs to consider the whole animal,

its needs and physiological functions. You could derive no nutrition from

grass, the cellulose would go right through and be rough on your system. Cattle

thrive on it, due to the wonderful rumen microbes that create protein from the

long fiber cellulose.

Depending on the climate, weather/time of

year, land, line of cattle, period of lactation and demands on the cow, you can

have a problem keeping a cow thrifty with no concentrate. Many people talk

about the importance of “nutrient dense foods” for people then make

the erroneous assumption that cattle NEVER need “nutrient dense foods”.

As farmers we call that “concentrates” among other terms. Not

necessarily just grains. Seeds, such as flax seed, are used in my ration. For

goats, sunflower seeds offer a good supplement. With soys there are negative

components, such as isoflavones, that carry through the milk, and cottonseed,

while being a very good nutrient dense food for some instances, gets defeated

by the fact that it is most likely loaded w/ pesticide and herbicide residue. In

addition, excess cottonseed can reduce sterility in males due to hormonal imbalances

caused by plant hormones produced.

It is not appropriate to resume that cows

should eat based on human physiologic needs. They have a very different

digestive system, even from equines. Just as we could not eat and thrive on the

physiologically appropriate diet of equines, ruminants, dogs, or fish, we need

to acknowledge the differences and use that to determine our choices. I have

had many a “discussion” with pretentious persons who demand

vegetarian eggs, because they SAW in the store that there are eggs from

vegetarian chickens.

Chickens are not vegetarians, By the same

token, we are not ruminants, and ruminates are not omnivores.

One option that is available for nutrient

dense, non grain feeding is the use of Chaff Hay, a fermented, baled

alfalfa product. I purchased a small amount to test. It seemed a good option.

However, it is produced in Colorado and Texas, so the

shipping dramatically adds to the expense. I cannot justify financially the

capital outlay of a tractor trailer load, which would last me a year. It is a

overhead expense that would need to be offset by increase in price and would

double the expense of cow/goat shares. The other question about chaff hay that

I have not rec’d a satisfactory answer to is the use of herbicides and

pesticides in the production, very common in large scale alfalfa production.

www.MajestyFarm.com

It must be obvious that liberty

necessarily means freedom to choose foolishly as well as wisely; freedom to

choose evil as well as good; freedom to enjoy the rewards of good judgment, and

freedom to suffer the penalties of bad judgment. If this is not true, the word

" freedom " has no meaning. – Ben

Moreell

From: Carol

Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004

8:27 AM

To: RawDairy

Subject: Re: Grain Free

Milking

>>P.S.- Its not the cow eating a small amount of

grain you should be worried about, its what is in the grain. Make sure your

farmer is looking out for you and the cow by eliminating soy and cottonseed. By

the way, grain makes cows fat if given too much, we don't wanta fat lazy cow.

We want a healthy cow.

Annelis <<

~~~What is your rationale

for thinking only soy and cottonseed are bad, and not grains? I avoid ALL

grains in my own diet and would feel better, if the meat I eat and the

milk products I eat/drink were free of grain components too. It seems

like there would be other things to use to get vitamins/herbs inside the cow.

Carol

PLEASE

BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!

Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of

information!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

December 9, 2004

Carol Said:

And, once again I will say to some

of you very defensive cow owners, I know this is not something you

can achieve over night, but it is the way of things to come, so you might as

well start thinking about ways to avoid feeding grains to your cows, because

the public is becoming more and more informed, and it might be a good idea to

keep up with that knowledge.

As one of those “defensive cow owners”

I would encourage you, prior to making ad hominem comments, to actually

understand and study the physiology, long-term history, and differences between

breeds.

COWS are NOT

people and do not have the same digestive system requirements. Different breeds

also have different requirements and needs. BEEF cows can easily get fat and

happy on grass….they are not being asked to produce what is an abnormal

amount of milk for them. My beeves never have grain, except for an occasional

(maybe every couple months) “friendly” bucket to share so they will

come to eat and know I am their bud.

Please

explain why you believe it is wrong PHYSIOLOGICALLY for cattle to have a small

amount of grain. You say “Feeding grains is what is contrived, and if

you'd done some reading before you posted, you'd know that too. “ Fact is, Carol, going back many thousands

of year milk cows have been fed grains and seeds as supplements, as well as

roots and tubers. If you want to go back to “totally uncontrived”

then before cows and goats were domesticated they did not produce in excess of

what was needed for their calves/kids. Where would you get the “people

milk” from? We are not milking wild cattle. There are not enough

genetically selected grass producing cattle currently to provide milk for all

that desire it, AND there are few areas in this country that have the moderate

climate and mineral rich soils that New Zealand has to run our cattle on. I am

in fescue country. Fescue is a drought-resistant, hardy grass that is the basis

of grazing around here. It also produces toxic endophytes at times. I can

easily raise my beeves on it, but It would be a challenge to milk these gals.

Anytime you want to try it you are welcome, after signing a liability release.

Dairy cows ARE contrived. They have been bred selectively for milk production,

and discussing these issues outside of recognizing that fact denies reality.

You say” And, once again

I will say to some of you very defensive cow owners, I know this is

not something you can achieve over night, but it is the way of things to come,

so you might as well start thinking about ways to avoid feeding grains to your

cows, because the public is becoming more and more informed, and it might be a

good idea to keep up with that knowledge.”

Unless you are

willing to financially subsidize the transition to “no grain” dairy

for farmers in meaningful ways what is the incentive? Farmers know how public

fads come and go, and the fickleness of the market. They are also aware that

many consumers education is sorely lacking in grounded reality. In other words,

the book learning leaves a bit to be desired. The knowledge that you refer to

is an isolated knowledge, not necessarily in keeping with the whole picture of

production.

You say: “Grasses do not have huge

amounts of anti-nutrients like lectins and phytic acid, that you find in

abundance in grains. “

Grasses

also do not HAVE some of the positive nutrients available in grains. And

what do you base your presumption that lectins and phytic acids are

anti-nutrients for ruminants?

Again,

presuming human nutrition correlated to ruminant nutrition is inappropriate.

Pigs, on the other hand are omnivores like us. How would you have them fed? And

poultry?

When the rubber

hits the road consumers who are so sure that their demands are reasonable, and

unwilling to either listen nor do adequate research damage the movement to

small farms and local sustainable production. It is a one-way street. For years

I kept a milking goat on a special wheat/soy/corn free ration, NOT because it

was bad for her, but I had a customer who was severely allergic to those

things, needed the milk, and could not have the residual pass-through from

these foods.

However, as Mike P. said, “Consumers have

to be willing to buy direct from the

farmer and pay a fair (not outrageous) price for

good quality food.”

The market here

will NOT pay my expenses for a NO GRAIN maintenance of dairy cows. I currently

have one cow that I will be culling because genetically she does not stay thrifty

on a predominately pastured program. She is a very good producer, though,

actually my best, but she throws all her nutrition into milk. I got into

dairy cows as a source for MY family. It expanded to offer other families the

opportunity to enjoy fresh raw milk. Not everyone wants to make the expenditure

(double Wal-mart price) and if I were to go to a total grass based program my

production would drop, my costs would decrease very little, and I would simply not

have the financial means to subsidize the operation.

We

Micro-dairies often feel stepped on from both sides, the large dairies, and the

demanding consumers. Most of my cow/goat share people are delightful, and open

to being educated, as they have no practical experience on the farm.

I encourage any

consumer who has decided exactly how the milkers should be raised and wants perfect

control to get one and do it. I have transferred a number of cow-share and

goat-share people to the ownership option, not because they were unhappy with

me, but because they were willing and able to take the responsibility for their

own production. It is not an impossibility.

If you perceive

some of us as being “defensive” I can understand why. We are tired

of being treated like serfs who have little knowledge or common sense. When

you are ready to actually have a conversation where you are open to learning as

well as preaching, you may find a lot less defensiveness apparent.

www.MajestyFarm.com

" The average man's love of liberty is nine-tenths

imaginary. It takes a special sort of man to understand and enjoy liberty --

and he is usually an outlaw in democratic societies. " -- H.L. Mencken

December 9, 2004

In Florida,

citrus pulp is used quite often as a cattle feed providing both roughage and

nutrients. Whoever, the source may not be pesticide free.

www.MajestyFarm.com

It must be obvious that liberty

necessarily means freedom to choose foolishly as well as wisely; freedom to

choose evil as well as good; freedom to enjoy the rewards of good judgment, and

freedom to suffer the penalties of bad judgment. If this is not true, the word

" freedom " has no meaning. – Ben

Moreell

From: Tinybabe

Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004

6:01 AM

To: RawDairy

Subject: Re: Re: Grain

Free Milking

I have offered some

oranges to my cows. Some like them, some don't. I look at it this

way: An animal will eat what it believes it needs to. Could be that

the ones that liked the oranges were in need of some extra vitamin C even though

they all got the same food. Margie loves tomatoes. I never figured

that cattle would like citus of any kind, but I have a friend whose cattle love

all kinds of citrus.

K.C.

Re: Re: Grain

Free Milking

>

>>> Hi Jolene,

> Wow, yes actually, I would not be

surprised by that. I know Sally

> Fallon (WAPF) says that

> confimed Holstein

cows are fed donuts, citrus peel cakes (loaded

> with pesticides from the

> skins of sprayed oranges), bubble

gum, and the wrappers, etc. It's

> a sad state of affiairs

> for the modern-day cow isn't it?

> D.<<

>

> ~~~What in the wide world would

be the purpose of feeding cows all

> those things?!

PLEASE BE

KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!

Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of

information!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

PLEASE BE

KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!

Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of

information!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

December 9, 2004

>>>As one of those “defensive cow owners” I would encourage you, prior to making ad hominem comments, to actually understand and study the physiology, long-term history, and differences between breeds.<<<

~~~I see that, regardless of the disclaimer I made in my paragraph the ONLY part of it you figured was worth processing in your mind was the above part, because the entirety of this email is based on your totally misunderstanding everything I've said. I believe YOU are the one who doesn't understand.

>>>COWS are NOT people and do not have the same digestive system requirements.<<<

~~~I never once said cows had the same digestive system as people. Your intimation that I DID shows just how lacking in understanding your reading of my posts is.

>>>Please explain why you believe it is wrong PHYSIOLOGICALLY for cattle to have a small amount of grain. You say “Feeding grains is what is contrived, and if you'd done some reading before you posted, you'd know that too. “ Fact is, Carol, going back many thousands of year milk cows have been fed grains and seeds as supplements, as well as roots and tubers.<<<

~~~There are several reasons I feel it's wrong to feel grain to cattle, but if you want to boil it down to one reason having to do with their physiological makeup, it is because they would not and could not feed them selves grain, and never did until man got into the picture. Yes, you can go back a long time within the agricultural era and still find that cows were fed grains. You can do that with humans too. (Please note that when I throw humans in as a comparison I am NOT saying cows and humans are the same.) But, the history of man and animals was MUCH longer without grains on the earth than with them on the earth. When cattle ate to its own foraging content, it never ate grains.

>>>If you want to go back to “totally uncontrived” then before cows and goats were domesticated they did not produce in excess of what was needed for their calves/kids. Where would you get the “people milk” from?<<<

~~~That's simply not true. Man has been drinking milk from animals far longer than grains have been in existence. YOU are the one who needs to do some reading before YOU post.

>>>They have been bred selectively for milk production, and discussing these issues outside of recognizing that fact denies reality. <<<

~~~~Once again, I will repeat: I know this is not something that can happen overnight.

>>>Unless you are willing to financially subsidize the transition to “no grain” dairy for farmers in meaningful ways what is the incentive?<<<

~~~The incentive is, as I've said NUMEROUS times in this thread - you are going to find that people are going to stop buying your milk eventually, as they become more well informed. Computers and the internet have made it possible for information to become available to people, and they are soaking it up in droves. Just because you don't want to read the facts doesn't mean everyone else is not reading them. The latest generation is on the internet in a LOT and you will eventually see that they are learning the latest research. When you start noticing the effects, it's going to be difficult for you. I am only trying to 'plant the seed'. If you would quit being so defensive and angry about it, you might be able to understand.

>>>Farmers know how public fads come and go, and the fickleness of the market.<<<

~~~This is not a fad, and if you persist in taking it that way, it will only be to YOUR disadvantage, not mine.

>>>They are also aware that many consumers education is sorely lacking in grounded reality. In other words, the book learning leaves a bit to be desired. The knowledge that you refer to is an isolated knowledge, not necessarily in keeping with the whole picture of production.<<<

~~~If you think my education is lacking, you better start doing some reading yourself. Your 'knowledge' is what's lacking, not the knowledge of consumers who know better than you do what is healthy for themselves. (You ARE what you eat, is a very true saying.)

>>>Grasses also do not HAVE some of the positive nutrients available in grains. And what do you base your presumption that lectins and phytic acids are anti-nutrients for ruminants?<<<

~~~If you are correct, then how did ruminants live such healthy lives before grains became their staple diets? This is the key point that you haven't learned. Animals of all kinds, (and humans too), lived without eating grains for many thousands of years. (Many thousand more years without grains than with grains.)

<<<Again, presuming human nutrition correlated to ruminant nutrition is inappropriate.<<<

~~~Again, I NEVER said human nutrition correlated to ruminant nutrition. If you got that impression from what I've written, then you may well never understand what I'm saying, and I don't intend to argue with you indefinitely. Assuming I would say such a thing also assumes I'm a nitwit, which adds to the insults you've been hurling at me from the beginning! Grade school kids know that the physiology of cows and humans are extremely different, and you assume I don't?

>>>Pigs, on the other hand are omnivores like us. How would you have them fed? And poultry?<<<

~~~You are a very insulting person, and obviously very angry. After this email, I will not respond to you again, because it's become very obvious that your internal venom disallows your being able to objectively read what I post.

>>>When the rubber hits the road consumers who are so sure that their demands are reasonable, and unwilling to either listen nor do adequate research damage the movement to small farms and local sustainable production.<<<

~~~Your lack of understanding in this email alone shows that you are the one who is unwilling to listen and do adequate research. You have misunderstood me almost completely, and your ignorance about the history of animals, (as well as humans), is obvious to those who HAVE done the research.

>>>It is a one-way street. For years I kept a milking goat on a special wheat/soy/corn free ration, NOT because it was bad for her, but I had a customer who was severely allergic to those things, needed the milk, and could not have the residual pass-through from these foods.<<<

~~~You are obviously missing the fact that, if you don't provide what consumers want and need, you will have no business. It is NOT a one-way street, and your saying that only further proves your misunderstanding. The fact is, if you don't sell what people want, you won't sell, period. You are simply railing at the idea of change.

>>>The market here will NOT pay my expenses for a NO GRAIN maintenance of dairy cows.<<<

~~~For the umpteenth time, I will say I'm not talking about NOW. I'm talking about changes you are going to have to make eventually, IF you want to keep selling.

>>>I encourage any consumer who has decided exactly how the milkers should be raised and wants perfect control to get one and do it.<<<

~~~Did I say I had decided exactly how milkers should be raised, OR that I wanted perfect control? NO! This is how your defensiveness and anger is showing. ALL I've been saying is that cows were not designed to eat grains. All you have to do is read about the evolution of cattle, and you would know that.

>>>We are tired of being treated like serfs who have little knowledge or common sense.<<<

~~~Then do your home work, so you won't have to feel that way. No one is treating you that way.

>>>When you are ready to actually have a conversation where you are open to learning as well as preaching, you may find a lot less defensiveness apparent. <<<

~~~You know, I've said all along that I realize what I'm saying is not practical the way things are. I've said that I realize farmers have fed grains to cattle for longer than any of us here have been alive. I've said I realize it's all about the money, and I understand and appreciate that, and that you are stuck the way things are at present. And, I've said this is something you might want to start thinking about and planning for, because people are just going to stop buying you products eventually. If you can say what you said above, showing SO little understanding of my meaning or intent, then I have little hope for you. And, I can see I'm never going to get my point across to you, so I won't be responding to your posts anymore.

Carol

December 9, 2004

>>>Please don't pick apart my email,I think its really rude,done by anyone.So don't think that I am singling you out.

Chrisitna in Tx<<<

~~~If people had taken that attitude about my first post, this would never have occured.

Carol

December 9, 2004

>>>Carol, please site a source on why a legume would be bad for a cow. Alfalfa is said to be one of the best feeds for a cow, a good batch of alfalfa can supply a cow with the majority of her nutritional needs.<<<

~~~Legumes have the same anti-nutrients that grains do, and I do have sources to show that feeding animals grains makes the fat of that animal much less healthy. This would obviously be the same for the fat in the milk from that animal too. There is more research than this, but this is by the University of California ative Extension Service on how much healthier the fat is of grass-fed cows:http://tinyurl.com/6d9nr

>>>And yet even at the end of the article in his comments Dr. Mercola says 'vastly reduce' grains in diet, not eliminate.<<<

~~~He says:

"I am stating that most of us would definitely benefit by either drastically reducing or eliminating them from our diet, and throughout Mercola.com, and in my forthcoming book, The No-Grain Diet, I show you why."

In any event, it's the "Dangerous Grains" article I was referencing, not Mercola's comments. When you go on to read Mercola's other articles, however, and his books, (one of which I have), you find that he has eliminated them totally.

>>>Not everyone has a gluten sensitivity and there are SO many other factors out there these days affecting a persons health- pollution, hormones, antibiotics, pesticides etc. that you can't blame just grains. <<<

~~~The article is not about gluten sensitivity. (There is no sense in my posting articles, if they're not going to be read.) There is MUCH more to it than gluten. In fact, it's about ALL grains, not only gluten grains.I'm not ONLY blaming grains, but research, like I've linked you to above, is accumulating quickly to show that grains are a very big problem. One cannot dispute the information from scientists and certain doctors and nutritionists who now can prove the bad effects of eating grains, for both man and animals, through their testing. Here's another site about the anti-nutrients in grains and legumes, by a renowned nutritionist, with compelling supporting documentation.

http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html#Testing

>>>What about other foods, like members of the nightshade family- potatoes, mushrooms- that could cause health problems?<<<

~~~Yes, those can be problematical too, as you will see in the Krispin Sullivan article on lectins, however they seem to be secondary to grains and legumes.

>>>If you look around you can find experts and articles and websites and studies supporting or against every type of food out there. It's your own personal choice to figure out what you believe is right or wrong.<<<

~~~I don't believe what is written by any expert, without scientific documentation to back it up, in the form of laboratory testing, clinical trials etc. I think that's where many people go wrong in their 'research' when looking up information on the web. If it's been proven as scientific fact, there is very little decision making involved, and anything else is just hearsay. It's hard to ignore the data that has been accumulated against grains, if one looks at it through the lens of science. If we don't start coming to some sort of real answers about these crucial subjects, peoples' health will continue to deteriorate as it has for the last 100 years. It's becoming very alarming when you take notice of how many autoimmune diseases, cancer and other health maladies are in abundance today. Sure, there are a lot of environmental elements entering into the picture, but if you think about it, the food we eat has one of the biggest effects on our health, (if not THE biggest), as it is the fuel that runs our bodies, and we process so much of it through our body every day. Our systems take that food and go through quite complex internal girations to make them run, let alone healthy. We are like chemical factories, the way food works on our bodies. Which foods we ingest alters how well the body works dramatically. 'You are what you eat' has stronger implications now than it did when the phrase was first coined.

"Do what feels right to you and keeps you healthy."

~~~If people worked well just by doing what "feels" right, we would all be healthy on our favorite foods. The workings of the body are very scientific - they're biology, in the scientific sense. It has little to do with what 'feels' right.

>>>I will continue to feed my cow grains when she needs them. You can continue looking for a source of grain feed milk and meat. Doesn't make either of us more right or better then the other. >>>

~~~No, it dosen't make either of us better, but it definitely makes one of us right, when it comes to science. Going on in the same direction we've been heading is only going to cause more disease in this already illness burdened society.

Carol

December 9, 2004

>>>Carol, please site a source on why a legume would be bad for a cow. Alfalfa is said to be one of the best feeds for a cow, a good batch of alfalfa can supply a cow with the majority of her nutritional needs.<<<

~~~Legumes have the same anti-nutrients that grains do, and I do have sources to show that feeding animals grains makes the fat of that animal much less healthy. This would obviously be the same for the fat in the milk from that animal too. There is more research than this, but this is by the University of California ative Extension Service on how much healthier the fat is of grass-fed cows:http://tinyurl.com/6d9nr

>>>And yet even at the end of the article in his comments Dr. Mercola says 'vastly reduce' grains in diet, not eliminate.<<<

~~~He says:

"I am stating that most of us would definitely benefit by either drastically reducing or eliminating them from our diet, and throughout Mercola.com, and in my forthcoming book, The No-Grain Diet, I show you why."

In any event, it's the "Dangerous Grains" article I was referencing, not Mercola's comments. When you go on to read Mercola's other articles, however, and his books, (one of which I have), you find that he has eliminated them totally.

>>>Not everyone has a gluten sensitivity and there are SO many other factors out there these days affecting a persons health- pollution, hormones, antibiotics, pesticides etc. that you can't blame just grains. <<<

~~~The article is not about gluten sensitivity. (There is no sense in my posting articles, if they're not going to be read.) There is MUCH more to it than gluten. In fact, it's about ALL grains, not only gluten grains.I'm not ONLY blaming grains, but research, like I've linked you to above, is accumulating quickly to show that grains are a very big problem. One cannot dispute the information from scientists and certain doctors and nutritionists who now can prove the bad effects of eating grains, for both man and animals, through their testing. Here's another site about the anti-nutrients in grains and legumes, by a renowned nutritionist, with compelling supporting documentation.

http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html#Testing

>>>What about other foods, like members of the nightshade family- potatoes, mushrooms- that could cause health problems?<<<

~~~Yes, those can be problematical too, as you will see in the Krispin Sullivan article on lectins, however they seem to be secondary to grains and legumes.

>>>If you look around you can find experts and articles and websites and studies supporting or against every type of food out there. It's your own personal choice to figure out what you believe is right or wrong.<<<

~~~I don't believe what is written by any expert, without scientific documentation to back it up, in the form of laboratory testing, clinical trials etc. I think that's where many people go wrong in their 'research' when looking up information on the web. If it's been proven as scientific fact, there is very little decision making involved, and anything else is just hearsay. It's hard to ignore the data that has been accumulated against grains, if one looks at it through the lens of science. If we don't start coming to some sort of real answers about these crucial subjects, peoples' health will continue to deteriorate as it has for the last 100 years. It's becoming very alarming when you take notice of how many autoimmune diseases, cancer and other health maladies are in abundance today. Sure, there are a lot of environmental elements entering into the picture, but if you think about it, the food we eat has one of the biggest effects on our health, (if not THE biggest), as it is the fuel that runs our bodies, and we process so much of it through our body every day. Our systems take that food and go through quite complex internal girations to make them run, let alone healthy. We are like chemical factories, the way food works on our bodies. Which foods we ingest alters how well the body works dramatically. 'You are what you eat' has stronger implications now than it did when the phrase was first coined.

"Do what feels right to you and keeps you healthy."

~~~If people worked well just by doing what "feels" right, we would all be healthy on our favorite foods. The workings of the body are very scientific - they're biology, in the scientific sense. It has little to do with what 'feels' right.

>>>I will continue to feed my cow grains when she needs them. You can continue looking for a source of grain feed milk and meat. Doesn't make either of us more right or better then the other. >>>

~~~No, it dosen't make either of us better, but it definitely makes one of us right, when it comes to science. Going on in the same direction we've been heading is only going to cause more disease in this already illness burdened society.

Carol

December 9, 2004

>>>Bravo . Well said<<<

~~~Ok, I can see most of you just can't understand anything I've said. And, after a couple of days trying to explain, I give up, because this is certainly no more pleasant for me than it appears to be for so many of you. In fact, I'm the one who has been taking all the flack, just for wanting to discuss something with you. I can now see that's simply not allowed here, to all practical purposes. If you were all facing me in person, I'm sure I'd be covered in rotten eggs by now. I came here to try and determine if ingesting raw dairy products would agree with me more than ingesting pasteurized dairy products has been in the past, and to possibly find a source for raw milk. That has become a moot point. The biggest thing I've learned here is that I probably won't be able to find a farm that raises cows with a diet nearly as healthy as my own......at least not in the near future. (Especially, now that I know some farmers are ignorant enough to feed their cows cookies, candy and paper. Why would I want to eat what is produced by an animal who has a diet far worse than my own?! Cookies, candy and paper, in ANY amount, is not healthy for any living being, because it's the epitome of processed and synthesized food. And, eating those items as well as grains changes the fat content of the animal to something very unnatural and less healthy. ) And, by the way, I just don't see, (if you are indeed feeding so little grain in proportion to the size of the animal), why that small amount is going to do them any 'good' at all. In fact, I see it as simply being arbitrarily stubborn. So, because this is a place only good for those people who agree with the existing farmers who feed grain, and a place where it's not possible to reasonably talk about the possibility that grain feeding may be a tradition that is on its way out, (and is unhealthy), and since I am insulted more than anything else by most of you, I will now say 'so long', and go back to my cow-milk-free diet. It's rather sad, because I thought the people who believed raw milk was healthier, would also believe in the other elements of health, similar to the WAPF. (Which also states that grains are not good unless fermented, because of the anti-nutrients.) I got the information for this email list through the WAPF, but I can see there is very little in common between the two organizations.

If nothing else, you people have convinced me that I'll be more healthy without your milk. People with such ignorant and stolidly rigid attitudes, (not to mention aggressively insulting attitudes), are probably not going to be able to produce anything I'd want to put into my body.

Carol

December 9, 2004

>>>Bravo . Well said<<<

~~~Ok, I can see most of you just can't understand anything I've said. And, after a couple of days trying to explain, I give up, because this is certainly no more pleasant for me than it appears to be for so many of you. In fact, I'm the one who has been taking all the flack, just for wanting to discuss something with you. I can now see that's simply not allowed here, to all practical purposes. If you were all facing me in person, I'm sure I'd be covered in rotten eggs by now. I came here to try and determine if ingesting raw dairy products would agree with me more than ingesting pasteurized dairy products has been in the past, and to possibly find a source for raw milk. That has become a moot point. The biggest thing I've learned here is that I probably won't be able to find a farm that raises cows with a diet nearly as healthy as my own......at least not in the near future. (Especially, now that I know some farmers are ignorant enough to feed their cows cookies, candy and paper. Why would I want to eat what is produced by an animal who has a diet far worse than my own?! Cookies, candy and paper, in ANY amount, is not healthy for any living being, because it's the epitome of processed and synthesized food. And, eating those items as well as grains changes the fat content of the animal to something very unnatural and less healthy. ) And, by the way, I just don't see, (if you are indeed feeding so little grain in proportion to the size of the animal), why that small amount is going to do them any 'good' at all. In fact, I see it as simply being arbitrarily stubborn. So, because this is a place only good for those people who agree with the existing farmers who feed grain, and a place where it's not possible to reasonably talk about the possibility that grain feeding may be a tradition that is on its way out, (and is unhealthy), and since I am insulted more than anything else by most of you, I will now say 'so long', and go back to my cow-milk-free diet. It's rather sad, because I thought the people who believed raw milk was healthier, would also believe in the other elements of health, similar to the WAPF. (Which also states that grains are not good unless fermented, because of the anti-nutrients.) I got the information for this email list through the WAPF, but I can see there is very little in common between the two organizations.

If nothing else, you people have convinced me that I'll be more healthy without your milk. People with such ignorant and stolidly rigid attitudes, (not to mention aggressively insulting attitudes), are probably not going to be able to produce anything I'd want to put into my body.

Carol

December 9, 2004

Dear Hearts, espcially Carol,

I love to hear what anyone thinks on any subject. I am

open to new ideas and principles. Just don't tell me I

am stupid when I have cows and you don't. Someone

recently scolded me about not using non-medicated

starter with my chicks. THe only time I did that I

lost a third of them in a week and it took the rest 12

weeks to reach 6 pounds. If anyone wants me to grow

chickens for them and do it that way, I will be glad

to do so. For only $2.00 per bird which is about what

I make now. But you must front the money for all birds

and feed and accept all losses. I'll do the same with

milk and beef. If you are willing to Pay $20.00 a

gallon for grass only milk, I'll gladly do that. Other

wise, get your own cow.

Bill Dunlap

__________________________________________________

December 9, 2004

Until you have a dairy cow and have to struggle to keep her in a healthy

weight

while still maintaining body condition, fertility, and milk production don't

knock anyone for feeding a cow grain.

...........................................................

What a wonderful post . The posts are going to be divided between

those who do and those who are consumers. These are conversations that all

of us are going to have with our customers also. I raise my goats a certain

way, my milk sales are just a portion of the overall profit my girls make me

on the farm, I will not change how I do things or lie to a customer to keep

them. If a customer is not happy with me graining the does on the

milkstand than they can find their milk elsewhere. Why also I think you

should see the animals your milk is coming from and the meat on the hoof

before it is purchased. My girls are also glamore girls (show stock), to

keep them looking their best takes grain. Graining milking does is also for

me about profit, I know a dirty word to some. Without grain the 10 pound

milker becomes very quickly a 6 pound milker...or worse for my show string,

a 10 pound milker who loses incredible amounts of weight, putting it all in

the milkpail with no calories left for herself.

We have genetically altered the production in our dairy goats in just the 18

years since I have been milking. Those larger udders simply milk more,

those better attached udders are less prone to mastitis or injury out in the

woods while browsing. Selective breeding is what gives us does with twice

the production of thier dams. To fill an udder like this takes calories,

something that isn't going to be able to be supplied by just grass. Another

thought on those in the south is that grass fed goats are also going to have

to be wormed more than the browsing goat who eats like she is supposed to

with her head up! Yes you can improve that pasture...this becomes a whole

nother topic with fertilizers, manure spreading which furthers gives you

more parasties and in some cases disease.

There are also those who put human conditions onto animals. You are not

going to have an allergic reaction to milk if a doe is fed corn that you are

then allergic to. Milk simply doesn't work that way and neither does meat.

You can have residues from drugs or pestisides, but not composition change

in the meat or milk from the diet (well other than butterfat in the milk and

fat in the meat, and thats simply a change of percentage not it's makeup).

I also think soy has gotten a huge bad wrap, I can't even think off the top

of my head a better way to raise the protein in a TMR than with soy. Our

milkers don't get soy, they don't need higher protein than is found in their

alfalfa, but yes to get a March kid on the milkings string by the next

March, they need more protein than found in alfalfa.

My biggest concern is the folks who are purchasing their products only for

" organic " " grass fed only " " no wormers or antibiotics " labeling, and have

not even visited the farm where their products are processed, I have seen

some and it would make your toes curl! When you have actaully raised and

milked stock, not just read about it, you know just howfalse some/most of

these claims are. Vicki

Vicki McGaugh

Lonesome Doe Nubians 1986

NUBIAN SOAPS, Goats Milk,

Soaps, Lotion, Soy Candles, etc..

North of Houston Texas

December 9, 2004