Some HCl answers -- and more questions

[Guest guest]

My initial HCl trial this time around employed a Twinlab supplement. Yes,

I know, Twinlab is crap, but it's awfully hard to find HCl supplements in

brick-and-mortar stores nowadays. They devote all their shelf space to

antacids, acid suppressors and other products of their ilk. I went to

three health food stores and a Vitamin Shoppe; two of the health food

stores had nothing, one had one single form of tablet, and the Vitamin

Shoppe had an impossibly generous selection of three different brands, one

of which, Twinlab, was in capsule form, so I went with the Twinlab.

After I started developing reflux symptoms, I throttled back my dosage to

partial capsules (generally minimal fractions) or nothing at all, but I've

been able to gradually build my dosage back up almost to my initial

one-cap-per-meal level. My lung symptoms have either vanished or almost

disappeared (I suppose my epiglottis woke up and smelled the coffee?) but

while the reflux itself has also improved, my esophagus is still,

unfortunately, feeling some pain. It's generally worst when I wake up in

the morning; sometimes my throat feels very raw then, as though I've just

swallowed battery acid. On the other side of the ledger, my digestion,

which had worsened when I reduced my dose, is getting better again. The

problem is that even with that improvement, I can't continue harming my

throat like this.

My mom, who has some of the same digestive problems and a lot more besides,

got some Pure Encapsulations HCl, and in the brief time she's used it she's

had much better results than she got from the Twinlab capsules I'd given

her (which is to say no noticeable side effects compared to some reflux,

albeit less than I got, and, oddly, some stomach pain, which I don't think

I ever got) so I got some myself, and besides the better fillers and

presumably-superior ingredients, I noticed they're formulated rather

differently. (I haven't had time yet to find out whether I'll become

symptom-free on them, but we'll soon see.)

1 Pure Encapsulation capsule contains 10mg ascorbyl palmitate (fat-soluble

vitamin C), I suppose as a preservative; 520mg of betaine HCl; 21mg of

" pure pepsin 1:15,000 potency " ; and " hypoallergenic plant fiber " , which is

PE's standard filler.

1 Twinlab capsule contains 648mg of " betaine (from betaine hydrochloride) " ;

130mg of " pepsin 1:10,000 NF " ; and a host of fillers -- gelatin (the

capsule, I guess), purified water, cellulose, MCT, vegetable-based stearic

acid, and silica.

My first question is, what does the potency ratio mean? Do I have to

perform some kind of operation to yield an apples-to-apples comparison and

to find out what I'm actually getting? (Just to further confuse the issue,

Thorne Research's supplement, which gave me the worst reflux problem of

everything I've tried, had a 1:3,000 potency. That was something like a

year ago, though, so maybe the ratio had nothing to do with it and some

other change in the interim is responsible for the different response.)

My second question is, how much actual HCl do these supplements contain,

and since PE indicates the total betaine HCl content while Twinlab seems to

isolate the betaine part, does that mean that I have to perform different

operations on them to determine their actual HCl dosages? (IOW, look up

the molecular formula of betaine HCl and figure out what percentage by

weight the betaine and HCl parts each make up, then apply the HCl

percentage to PE's number while dividing the Twinlab number by the betaine

percentage and then multiplying by the HCl percentage? If so, why can't

anyone honestly indicate the actual HCl content? This sort of chicanery

seems to be universal among betaine HCl supplements.)

My third question is, how much pepsin does one need on a

mg-per-gram-of-protein basis? (I guess any such ratio would presume

adequate acidity, but then, that's kind of what this whole exercise is all

about.)

Anyway, I did some further googling and found this page.

http://biology.clc.uc.edu/courses/bio105/digestiv.htm

According to them, an average properly functioning stomach releases around

80mg of pepsin and 2.4g of HCl per meal. That's a pepsin:HCl ratio of

about 0.0333:1. Pure Encapsulation comes in at about 0.04:1, and Twinlab

at about 0.2:1, so Pure would seem to be much closer to normal. (And yes,

those ratios are probably wrong, because who knows how much actual HCl

their pills actually contain.)

At any rate, on an acid basis, if the dosage on these bottles is actually

for HCl, which I guess it's not, that page suggests that if I were to

require total replacement (IOW if my stomach produces no acid on its own,

which is admittedly rather unlikely) I'd need to work my way up to about

five Pure Encapsulations capsules per meal -- and those five capsules would

give me a little less than the pepsin of one Twinlabs capsule. Of course,

what's average? I'm over 6'3 " , I weigh around 215#, I eat something like

4-6,000 kcal per day...

The peak of their " normal " pepsin-secretion range is 120mg -- again, less

than what a single Twinlabs capsule contains, but almost exactly what five

PE capsules contain between them. (Not that the five-capsules figure

necessarily means anything at all since it's based on what's probably an

inaccurate assumption about HCl dosages.) Assuming constant HCl secretion

(which also may be unwarranted) that would yield a 0.05:1 pepsin:HCl ratio

-- again, much closer to PE's formulation than Twinlab's. This makes me

wonder if the reflux and associated pain wasn't due to a relative excess of

pepsin having an undesirable effect on body tissues, but again, I'll have

to see how the PE supplement affects me before I can even venture a

meaningful guess.

Oh, and just for your viewing delectation and general amusement, that page

also has a graphic demonstration of what happens to protein digestion when

people consume antacids. It doesn't look like much, but if you think about

it, it's pretty gruesome.

-

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

Maybe you knew this, but apple cider vinegar and Celtic sea salt also

increase HCl production.

I have serious acid reflux too but I have no pain or symptoms on a

high protein and fat diet, with veggies, and low or no grains and

sugar. I seem to have a threshold of grains and sugar that I can

eat. Above that I get acid reflux symptoms. I take apple cider

vinegar and Celtic sea salt with my meals and no other digestive

enzymes.

Bee

--- In , Idol <Idol@c...>

wrote:

> My initial HCl trial this time around employed a Twinlab

supplement. Yes,

> I know, Twinlab is crap, but it's awfully hard to find HCl

supplements in

> brick-and-mortar stores nowadays. They devote all their shelf

space to

> antacids, acid suppressors and other products of their ilk. I went

to

> three health food stores and a Vitamin Shoppe; two of the health

food

> stores had nothing, one had one single form of tablet, and the

Vitamin

> Shoppe had an impossibly generous selection of three different

brands, one

> of which, Twinlab, was in capsule form, so I went with the Twinlab.

>

> After I started developing reflux symptoms, I throttled back my

dosage to

> partial capsules (generally minimal fractions) or nothing at all,

but I've

> been able to gradually build my dosage back up almost to my initial

> one-cap-per-meal level. My lung symptoms have either vanished or

almost

> disappeared (I suppose my epiglottis woke up and smelled the

coffee?) but

> while the reflux itself has also improved, my esophagus is still,

> unfortunately, feeling some pain. It's generally worst when I wake

up in

> the morning; sometimes my throat feels very raw then, as though

I've just

> swallowed battery acid. On the other side of the ledger, my

digestion,

> which had worsened when I reduced my dose, is getting better

again. The

> problem is that even with that improvement, I can't continue

harming my

> throat like this.

>

> My mom, who has some of the same digestive problems and a lot more

besides,

> got some Pure Encapsulations HCl, and in the brief time she's used

it she's

> had much better results than she got from the Twinlab capsules I'd

given

> her (which is to say no noticeable side effects compared to some

reflux,

> albeit less than I got, and, oddly, some stomach pain, which I

don't think

> I ever got) so I got some myself, and besides the better fillers

and

> presumably-superior ingredients, I noticed they're formulated

rather

> differently. (I haven't had time yet to find out whether I'll

become

> symptom-free on them, but we'll soon see.)

>

> 1 Pure Encapsulation capsule contains 10mg ascorbyl palmitate (fat-

soluble

> vitamin C), I suppose as a preservative; 520mg of betaine HCl; 21mg

of

> " pure pepsin 1:15,000 potency " ; and " hypoallergenic plant fiber " ,

which is

> PE's standard filler.

>

> 1 Twinlab capsule contains 648mg of " betaine (from betaine

hydrochloride) " ;

> 130mg of " pepsin 1:10,000 NF " ; and a host of fillers -- gelatin

(the

> capsule, I guess), purified water, cellulose, MCT, vegetable-based

stearic

> acid, and silica.

>

> My first question is, what does the potency ratio mean? Do I have

to

> perform some kind of operation to yield an apples-to-apples

comparison and

> to find out what I'm actually getting? (Just to further confuse

the issue,

> Thorne Research's supplement, which gave me the worst reflux

problem of

> everything I've tried, had a 1:3,000 potency. That was something

like a

> year ago, though, so maybe the ratio had nothing to do with it and

some

> other change in the interim is responsible for the different

response.)

>

> My second question is, how much actual HCl do these supplements

contain,

> and since PE indicates the total betaine HCl content while Twinlab

seems to

> isolate the betaine part, does that mean that I have to perform

different

> operations on them to determine their actual HCl dosages? (IOW,

look up

> the molecular formula of betaine HCl and figure out what percentage

by

> weight the betaine and HCl parts each make up, then apply the HCl

> percentage to PE's number while dividing the Twinlab number by the

betaine

> percentage and then multiplying by the HCl percentage? If so, why

can't

> anyone honestly indicate the actual HCl content? This sort of

chicanery

> seems to be universal among betaine HCl supplements.)

>

> My third question is, how much pepsin does one need on a

> mg-per-gram-of-protein basis? (I guess any such ratio would

presume

> adequate acidity, but then, that's kind of what this whole exercise

is all

> about.)

>

> Anyway, I did some further googling and found this page.

>

> http://biology.clc.uc.edu/courses/bio105/digestiv.htm

>

> According to them, an average properly functioning stomach releases

around

> 80mg of pepsin and 2.4g of HCl per meal. That's a pepsin:HCl ratio

of

> about 0.0333:1. Pure Encapsulation comes in at about 0.04:1, and

Twinlab

> at about 0.2:1, so Pure would seem to be much closer to normal.

(And yes,

> those ratios are probably wrong, because who knows how much actual

HCl

> their pills actually contain.)

>

> At any rate, on an acid basis, if the dosage on these bottles is

actually

> for HCl, which I guess it's not, that page suggests that if I were

to

> require total replacement (IOW if my stomach produces no acid on

its own,

> which is admittedly rather unlikely) I'd need to work my way up to

about

> five Pure Encapsulations capsules per meal -- and those five

capsules would

> give me a little less than the pepsin of one Twinlabs capsule. Of

course,

> what's average? I'm over 6'3 " , I weigh around 215#, I eat

something like

> 4-6,000 kcal per day...

>

> The peak of their " normal " pepsin-secretion range is 120mg --

again, less

> than what a single Twinlabs capsule contains, but almost exactly

what five

> PE capsules contain between them. (Not that the five-capsules

figure

> necessarily means anything at all since it's based on what's

probably an

> inaccurate assumption about HCl dosages.) Assuming constant HCl

secretion

> (which also may be unwarranted) that would yield a 0.05:1

pepsin:HCl ratio

> -- again, much closer to PE's formulation than Twinlab's. This

makes me

> wonder if the reflux and associated pain wasn't due to a relative

excess of

> pepsin having an undesirable effect on body tissues, but again,

I'll have

> to see how the PE supplement affects me before I can even venture a

> meaningful guess.

>

> Oh, and just for your viewing delectation and general amusement,

that page

> also has a graphic demonstration of what happens to protein

digestion when

> people consume antacids. It doesn't look like much, but if you

think about

> it, it's pretty gruesome.

>

>

>

>

> -

[Guest guest]

Bee,

My experience is the same as yours with regards to acid reflux. Sugar and

processed carbs are almost a guarantee that I will not gett a decent night's

sleep on any day that I eat more than a minimum of the garbage.

Judith Alta

-----Original Message-----

From: Bee [mailto:beewilder@...]

Dear ,

Maybe you knew this, but apple cider vinegar and Celtic sea salt also

increase HCl production.

I have serious acid reflux too but I have no pain or symptoms on a

high protein and fat diet, with veggies, and low or no grains and

sugar. I seem to have a threshold of grains and sugar that I can

eat. Above that I get acid reflux symptoms. I take apple cider

vinegar and Celtic sea salt with my meals and no other digestive

enzymes.

Bee

[Guest guest]

paul,

i can't answer any of your questions re ratios of HCl in those supplements,

but just wanted to tell you about the HCl digestive enzyme that i use

occasionally and have used with my dogs regularly for years. it's

" digestzymes " by " designs for health " . it was originally recommended to me

by my holistic vet (who was also an ND) and it's got 200 mgs betaine HCl per

capsule plus 65 mgs pepsin. it also has ox bile as well as lipase, protease

and amylase from pancreatin. and a little papain, too. my holistic vet

thought both this brand and PE stuff in general were of excellent quality,

fwiw. (ok, well that's not worth much on this board :-)

i don't have acid reflux, but when i do have digestive problems, 1 of these

with a meal usually helps.

it's one of those brands that's hard to get but i did find a few online

sources. if you're interested let me know and i'll dig them up.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

>