Guest guest Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 <<The five main characteristics of the Somali law are: * No punishment for crimes, only restitution or compensation. * No public prosecutors, no victimless crimes. * Fines are limited and must be paid to the victim or to his family. * Every person is insured for his liabilities under the law. * Judges are appointed by the litigants, not by 'society'. " >> , --- you forgot the other pillar of Somali law - genital mutilation of women http://www.guardian.co.uk/women/story/0,3604,1131012,00.html AFAIK all the opposing power groups in Somalia DO want to see a government established, at least they did in 2000 which is LESS than 10 yrs ago... however, they want it for different reasons.... when Marxist dictator Siad Barre fled the country in 1991, Somalia fell into the hands of warring clan-based militias fighting one another to fill the political void.... even the militiamen now say they want to see the restoration of government. methinks a quick googling is in order to provide some info re the ACTUAL state of affairs in Somalia now... Dedy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 >AFAIK all the opposing power groups in Somalia DO want to see a government established, at least they did in 2000 which is LESS than 10 yrs ago... however, they want it for different reasons.... when Marxist dictator Siad Barre fled the country in 1991, Somalia fell into the hands of warring clan-based militias fighting one another to fill the political void.... even the militiamen now say they want to see the restoration of government. > >methinks a quick googling is in order to provide some info re the ACTUAL state of affairs in Somalia now... > >Dedy Good point Dedy! ... if Somalia is the poster child for Libertarianism, then that leads to some interesting conclusions. Esp. for women's rights (women in Islamic-ruled countries don't seem to have many rights either, although " originally " Islam was supposed to have been progressive in that regard). Of course the next argument will be ... " But Somalia's problems are all the result of the West's meddling " . -- Heidi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 In a message dated 1/27/04 4:45:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, heidis@... writes: > Good point Dedy! ... if Somalia is the poster > child for Libertarianism, then that leads to some > interesting conclusions. Esp. for women's rights > (women in Islamic-ruled countries don't seem to > have many rights either, although " originally " > Islam was supposed to have been progressive > in that regard This is a rather unreasonable viewpoint Heidi, if I understand you correctly to be implying that a libertarian society would lead to such rules. That's purely cultural. Can you seriously argue that if the Federal Government of the United States disappeared we would be cicumcising and foot-binding women? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 >This is a rather unreasonable viewpoint Heidi, if I understand you correctly >to be implying that a libertarian society would lead to such rules. That's >purely cultural. Can you seriously argue that if the Federal Government of the >United States disappeared we would be cicumcising and foot-binding women? > >Chris Well, historically when one group has been abused they end up appealing to the gov't to overcome the cultural heritage. Which this lady was doing ... she got a Sheik on her side (and some foreign do-gooders to help with money). An example of this in our country is the situation of Blacks in the South ... the feds walked in and said Blacks should have equal treatment ... which I kind of doubt they would have got otherwise, at least not for another couple hundred years. Actually slaves were freed also, by a total disregard for the economical needs of the slaveholders. Soooo ... what's so unreasonable about concluding that gov't can and does help overcome some of the more oppressive cultural traditions? Besides, this is a case that supports my basic assertion ... that the lack of a strong central gov't leads to MORE, not LESS " ill treatment " of people (as evidenced, for example, by the high rate of homicide amongst tribal people). Also, you can't separate " culture " from " gov't " . Part of OUR culture IS a strong central government ... part of driving down the road is thinking " will I get caught if I speed? " . Part of the Pax Romana was the knowledge in every town that if they attacked the next town, they would get Roman Legions coming down on them. So, their culture changed, and town-attacking became less common. And yes, I think that if tommorrow we all dissolved into a mess of small townships with local gov'ts, SOME of those towns would devolve into witch hunting, minority-oppressing, narrow-minded, etc. communities led by strong and perhaps crazy Jim es -- maybe some would have multiple wives per husband that the husband could put to death at will, all those nice cultural things we read about but are currently illegal, would pop up again, because some people DO those things if they can. -- Heidi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2004 Report Share Posted February 8, 2004 On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 10:20:41 -0000 " Rundle " <Dpdg@...> wrote: ><<The five main characteristics of the Somali law are: >* No punishment for crimes, only restitution or compensation. >* No public prosecutors, no victimless crimes. >* Fines are limited and must be paid to the victim or to his family. >* Every person is insured for his liabilities under the law. >* Judges are appointed by the litigants, not by 'society'. " >> > > >, >--- you forgot the other pillar of Somali law - genital mutilation of women >http://www.guardian.co.uk/women/story/0,3604,1131012,00.html Dedy, This is not a pillar of Somali law. The articles itself says it is not a part of Somali law. It is a religious custom that has existed long before the current situation arose of no civil government. So I don't know what your point is. I could just as easily condemn all gov't based on this tragic practice given the fact it was condoned for so long while the Somalians *did* have a gov't in place. And perhaps you are unaware that this practice persisted in America until well into the 20th century. So this blatant appeal to emotion, while undestandable, is false and has no bearing on this discussion. > >AFAIK all the opposing power groups in Somalia DO want to see a >government established, at least they did in 2000 which is LESS than 10 >yrs ago... however, they want it for different reasons.... when Marxist >dictator Siad Barre fled the country in 1991, Somalia fell into the >hands of warring clan-based militias fighting one another to fill the >political void.... even the militiamen now say they want to see the >restoration of government. From the very beginning people on all sides have wanted to see a government established. So? The point of the article was to show how governing and law could work without the " traditional " arrangement. The article was written by someone who spent his time and money while living there. Yes, and I do think some deep googling is in order to make sure we don't buy into the gov't apologists propaganda about what is happening over there. Abolish the FDA!! http://tinyurl.com/25nu8 " They told just the same, That just because a tyrant has the might By force of arms to murder men downright And burn down house and home and leave all flat They call the man a captain, just for that. But since an outlaw with his little band Cannot bring half such mischief on the land Or be the cause of so much harm and grief, He only earns the title of a thief. " --Geoffrey Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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